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Keystone masteries ruined diversity

iTaLenTZ··155 votes·8,467 views

Better title: "new mastery pages are less diverse than old ones"

I see myself picking the same stuff over and over again. I don't make any meaningfull choices. Even worse, i am forced to pick useless masteries on a lot of champs because I only have 2 choices so i pick the least bad one.

  • I pick almost the same on every APC, Tank, Support, ADC
  • Too many times I am forced to pick things I don't want
  • I used to pick some flat damage and cdr, defence and utility for supports depening on the situation. Now I am forced to pick tank or scaling AP/AD or even worse %scaling so there is not really a choice anymore.
  • Minor differences in masterie pages between toplaner tank, jungler and support.
  • Unless you are a healer you pick different masteries than your counterpart.
  • The only things that really makes impact are the lv6 keystones. Rest is just crap compared to old mastery tree.
  • I don't make any meaningfull choices as support. There is nothing in which i differentiate myself
  • Non-tank junglers lack decent masteries which to choose from

Things we lost

  • 15% increased range on trinket. I used that one a lot for early cheese during invade
  • easy access to mana or mana regen (meditation)
  • easy access to 5% cdr
  • Generaly speaking APC's lost damage no matter how you look at it
  • The chance to pick AD and AP masteries and Armor/Magic penetration. Now we have to choose between both
  • flat AD and AP. Also usefull for junglers, supports, tanks for better lanephase.
  • flat resistances
  • 10% crit reduction
  • 3% AoE spelldamage reduction
  • Feast for that little extra sustain in lane
  • 20 flat ms
  • extra damage to monsters
  • BUT MOST OF ALL: The ability to shop between every masterie tree for useful and diverse pages for each of your champs. I rather pick a lot of small but useful and impacting masteries than picking useless things just to build up to lv6 keystone. The game has become 'which champs synergize best with the strongest keystones'

108 Comments

Boswick33 votes

In previous seaons, i used all 20 of my mastery pages, with about a dozen that were generic for different lanes and the rest used for specific champions or experimenting. This season I only have 10 pages and don't really see the need for more. Most of the time all you need to do is change the keystone between champions and you're good.

fééd l0rd7 votes

Just have one page.. I really enjoy the new mastery system cause it's pretty easy to do your page during the champ select cause you just have 2 or 3 options all the time.

MAestRIO3 votes

So true. That's what I like about it too.

I however have 18 pages, and 2 for during champ select. They aren't all completely different, but there is a lot of difference for, let's say

  • Support Soraka <> Support Trundle
  • Support Trundle <> Toplane Trundle

If you don't see much difference, maybe you are just using a lot of the same type of champs and/or use the same playstyle on lots of champs.

Specter0272 votes

I never had an issue with not being fast enough to create mastery pages on the fly last season. I used 19 pre-made pages (Page 1 was always blank for use) for my favorite champs in specific situations (like a 21/9/0 Gnar or a Deep Defensive Page Gnar if I get counter picked.) This season there just isn't a reason to do that because the choices are pretty much made by the champion I selected, not by the matchup I'm faced with. That's why I feel the system is dumbed down, nicer for blind pick but less interactive in draft.

DingleNutsMcGee25 votes

i pretty much agree with everything youve said here. i feel like on a lot of champions youre forced to take a bunch of useless masteries you dont need just to get to the keystone you need/want. this is the exact opposite of diversity lol

NostolgicSkies9 votes

{quoted}

i pretty much agree with everything youve said here. i feel like on a lot of champions youre forced to take a bunch of useless masteries you dont need just to get to the keystone you need/want. this is the exact opposite of diversity lol

unless your ghostcrawler, then its the core meaning of the word diversity

Skias2 votes

{quoted}

unless your ghostcrawler, then its the core meaning of the word diversity

Its pretty much identical to the cataclysm talent trees.

SoMNia12 votes

What are you talking about? We didn't lose easy access to Meditation. It's easier now than before. APCs didn't lose damage; they got a free Luden's Echo. And Feast is better now, actually noticeable and almost twice as effective in lane. Wait. You aren't taking Double Edged Sword over Feast and Merciless over Meditation 100% of the time on every champion, are you? Diverse choices exist.

MrBoomstickESQ12 votes

Erm.. I disagree.

Last season we had 21-0-9 or 21-9-0 for offensive characters with no variation within that tree.

Ezreal would go the same path as Vayne. People in the same role took the same masteries. No questions asked.

Now we have Some AD's taking one path and some taking another within one tree. We have mages going deep into one tree or deep into another. Just there already shows more diversity than the old system. Not to mention Keystone Masteries are just simply more interesting than the old ones.

MohawkBird10 votes

Agreed. What's so diverse about the old mastery system. It was basically just according to roles like you said. Heavy tanks invested 9-21, AP or AD carries invested 21-9, and supports invest 0-9-21 or some variation mix of defense and utility. Now we actually have diverse changes according to play style instead of just role. Mid laners have a choice between a poke option and a burst option. Assassins have 3 choices actually: poke, burst, or mobility. Sustained damage AD champions have a choice between extra damage or extra sustain.

Tanks now have a choice between health stacking, utility, and fighters can opt for the lifesteal defensive option. Supports can again go for the bond of stone or windspeaker's blessing depending on the playstyle of your support.

Seriously, I don't see how this isn't diverse. Even if these masteries aren't necessarily diverse to some people, they still are sure as hell more diverse than the old masteries.

Partholonian2 votes

{quoted}

Supports can again go for the bond of stone or windspeaker's blessing depending on the playstyle of your support.

Aggressive mage supports can go Thunderlord's or Deathfire too. Annie Zyra Zilean Veigar Velkoz ... basically anyone who can't proc Windspeaker and isn't a tank.

I have more mastery pages this season than I had last season.

TigerMama Gemgem3 votes

Actually as a true tank, I'd go 0/30/0... 9/21 for bruiser/juggernauts, 21/9 for adcs and fighters, 30/0/0 for a few adcs assassins. It was customizable.

Owntrolf11 votes

You forgot 20% item cooldown reduction

We only get 10% from Ruby Sightstone now

MohawkBird1 votes

Ruby Sightstone never had CDR though, right? What's so bad about getting a free 10% CDR on Ruby Sightstone?

Owntrolf7 votes

{quoted}

Ruby Sightstone never had CDR though, right? What's so bad about getting a free 10% CDR on Ruby Sightstone?

We lost 10% because we lost the 20% mastery

20-10 = 10

Simple math

MohawkBird3 votes

There was no 20% CDR mastery. What are you referring to?

Owntrolf5 votes

{quoted}

There was no 20% CDR mastery. What are you referring to?

ITEM COOLDOWN reduction

Clearly has never been a full item juggle support

Westonbirt4 votes

Infinite wards on a 40s cooldown. RIP

item 3361 item 3361 item 3361 item 3361 item 3361 item 3361 item 3361 item 3361 item 3361

Now we get this pile of garbage.

item 3340

Elphrihaim10 votes

I heavily agree with your grievances (the number of choices is greatly reduced and those choices were great).

I disagree with your title: This is not an issue of Keystone Masteries nor is it an issue with the construction of the pages.

It's simply that there're only 2 masteries in each row of each tree except the last one (which has 3). Before, they had 3 or 4 different masteries in each row; and there were more rows.

I completely agree with what you're saying, but the title of this topic isn't exactly what you have an issue with, it seems?

It feels like you're not saying that "keystone masteries ruined diversity", but that "new mastery pages are less diverse than old ones".

I'd really love to see 3 masteries in each row and 4 keystones in each tree, because then there would be more interesting choices to make. You could assemble more customized pages and I, frankly, absolutely love messing around with things.

Smithney1 votes

The thing is: do you even need more choices? I don't have the data, but it seems to me that the change Riot made was well thought-out. What's the point of making options that almost never get used? Not to mention you would have to balance for them as well.

I am honestly more concerned with the balance state of the keystone masteries rather than with the paths' diversity. One of the reason is that I actually found cases where the choices mattered (e.g. marksmen, junglers). Saying that, from my experience, players were less encouraged to fiddle with the old masteries, often resorting to copypasting them from sites like LOLking.

I for one think that the new masteries are A) easier to tinker with, B) clearer in their intentention, and C) more convenient to change on game-to-game basis. But that's just how I feel it.

Elphrihaim1 votes

{quoted}

The thing is: do you even need more choices?

Meaningful ones, yeah. Not more rows, more columns.

What's the point of making options that almost never get used? Not to mention you would have to balance for them as well.

This seems backasswards to me.

If a choice is not used, that probably means it is underpowered.

Making an option that never gets used means that that option should be made more attractive, because the reason it doesn't get used is because nobody thinks that it is any good.

I am honestly more concerned with the balance state of the keystone masteries rather than with the paths' diversity. One of the reason is that I actually found cases where the choices mattered (e.g. marksmen, junglers).

I am too, however, for a large number of champions I found that there was actually no different choices to make, that the First-Order Optimal-- basically, the most effective strategy for the amount of time it takes to discover-- choice was also the mathematically optimal one. But, if I can be anecdotal:

I play AP-HP Ahri. With the old pages, this worked really well--21/9/0, with the % HP mastery.

With the current pages, the % HP mastery is 12 points in resolve. This forces me to

A) Go 18 resolve, where neither mastery is particularly suitable. B) Go 18 Ferocity/Cunning, ignore Cunning/Ferocity.

So I did the math and thought about how I played and built, and said that going with Cunning would be suck, considering the value of Deathfire Touch and Oppressor compared to Bandit/Dangerous Game and Stormraider's Surge/Thunderlord's Decree, even knowing how valuable Intelligence and Meditation can be for my build path.

I wanted to try both, but I got interrupted by many things so I haven't yet had the chance. Maybe it will be interesting, maybe not...

But it feels less fun to me because of how many choices simply aren't there. There is less to evaluate, and I hate it.

Saying that, from my experience, players were less encouraged to fiddle with the old masteries, often resorting to copypasting them from sites like LOLking.

Wait... people copy masteries from other places instead of fiddling with them and doing maths themselves?

If they do, then they're not going to be interested in fiddling with the masteries no matter what, honestly. They only care about optimization and will gleefully ignore any fun that could be derived from figuring out their style and what works with it.

I for one think that the new masteries are A) easier to tinker with, B) clearer in their intentention, and C) more convenient to change on game-to-game basis. But that's just how I feel it.

I actually agree with all three of these points.

I just think it needs more choices, more ways for somebody who actually doesn't want certain effects to get towards the things they do want.

hhaavviikk7 votes

I actually miss starting with an extra 40 gold, it really helped jungling allot on TT

Icestar11866 votes

Masteries were boring. Now they're a bit less boring. How often did your mastery page make the difference in a game?

MohawkBird4 votes

I agree with this. They actually feel impactful and change the style and way people play. Old masteries were not even noticeable.

YumaS2Astral4 votes

{quoted}

I agree with this. They actually feel impactful and change the style and way people play. Old masteries were not even noticeable.

That only applies to keystones. Other masteries are still not that noticeable.

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

That only applies to keystones. Other masteries are still not that noticeable.

I don't agree. Personally I've noticed the impact of Meditation, Feast and Perseverance at least to be noticeable. Cookies, Dangerous Game and Bandit are as obviously impactful as ever, Intelligence is more impactful now because it raises your CDR cap.

They kept almost all the old masteries that felt like they impacted the game, they made some masteries that weren't massively impactful feel a lot more impactful, and they added keystone masteries which are super noticeable. Even if it's not perfect it's an objective improvement on the old system.

EcchiOtakuTM5 votes

Diversity on APC/ADC/Tank/Assassin etc. are fine

For Supps it's only Supp/Tank Supp the increase in trinket range I do miss

5% CDR Should be readded to both AS and Spell damage masteries IMO

mana regen is easy access

APC GAINED damage not lost it unless you don't realize how significant deathfire touch is atm and thundergod (could be if they just reduced the CD to 5seconds)

To be honest if the thundergod keystone was a 5second cd you wouldn't have to decide between ap or ad

Flat stats are better but they don't need it to be honest they're performing quite well currently and if riot would change fervor of battle and thundergod to useable on monsters it fixes most of that too for offensive type jungles

The crit damage reduction was hurting crit users a tad too much imo and is fine w/o it however the crit keystone does need nerfing

AoE Spell protection allows mages to actually do more now thankfully

feast just need a 5 hp increase and it would be fine

Movement is easier access

The bonus damage to monsters is there and tank jungles don't need it atm.

the way masteries are give me more choices than the old 21-9-0, 0-30-0, 0-18-12, 0-9-21 which barely did anything unless you were a tank and even now tanks are tankier, mages can deal more damage. The only ones who lost out are basic attack adcs, fiora, non-mage assassins, offensive junglers, and Supports(Diversity-wise) so far The cunning and resolve trees are amazing but the ferocity tree is lacking that's all. (Plus some support utility picks)

JedenVojak4 votes

{quoted}

the way masteries are give me more choices than the old 21-9-0, 0-30-0, 0-18-12, 0-9-21 which barely did anything unless you were a tank and even now tanks are tankier, mages can deal more damage. The only ones who lost out are basic attack adcs, fiora, non-mage assassins, offensive junglers, and Supports(Diversity-wise) so far The cunning and resolve trees are amazing but the ferocity tree is lacking that's all. (Plus some support utility picks)

What about 30-0-0 masteries? Where do I go for hybrid power? Or my very specific 10-17-3 AD soraka setup?

The Voids Call5 votes

This also doesn't address champions who find themselves in an awkward spot of wanting stats from one tree and the keystone from another. Or in some cases actually just not having a useful keystone at all.

Really the whole system seems like they only thought about marksmen and all the other roles were after thoughts in the redesign.

That said even if they fixed the options that exist now, i dislike the whole keystone concept being added, they minds well lock you into one tree until you've unlocked a keystone.

Next thing you know they will be removing mana and mana regen from items, then just adjusting all of the champions to have the "right amount" of mana they need. -_- sound familiar to anyone?

Dalnok4 votes

What we need is more Mastery Trees. The current ones are filled with to much ether or based on whether you are AD or AP. They need to specialize each tree for a specific type/role, ie. like the Resolve Tree is pretty much only focused on being tanky/hard to kill. They need to split up AD and AP into different Trees at the very least so that way they can provide cool and unique options to each one.

get good idiot4 votes

Nothing was diverse about the old masteries lmao

JedenVojak3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dong or Die,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NABAYTyc,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2015-11-17T03:13:00.552+0000)

Nothing was diverse about the old masteries lmao

This is not true.

With the old masteries, the balance of the power was not so heavily weighted at the top of the trees - the bonuses from there were good, but not mandatory, and picking up points from lower in the trees felt much better. I definately got more bang for my buck with 1st-3rd row masteries in the last set before this current one.

The current masteries are all balanced around 9 endpoint nodes, with all the points before those just fluff to take up space - you cannot make a mastery page that doesn't use any of those top nodes as it will just be crap now.

ThePurpleKnight4 votes

I used to make changes in my 9/21/0 pages based on match ups to take armor or MR. Now I always use the same thing and have almost no reason to ever switch any masteries around (except lane Kha'Zix vs Jungle Kha'Zix - Pick Pocket vs Dangerous Game)

Steelflame4 votes

Honestly, the current issue is the trees are too focused on hybridized types, but have very/too little within the tree to do so with. Ferocity is focused on DPS (But also self healing/sustain it seems, 2 minors and one keystone are healing), Cunning is "focused" on burst and utility (with very little burst stuff in it actually. Low utility too.) Resolve is the only tree that honestly is strong in it's identity, do you want to be a meatshield? Here you go, you can be a selfish meatshield or a team player meatshield.

Best thing I could say to do would be make it so that all the Odd Tiers have 3 masteries Examples, Ferocity would have Fury, Flat damage on AA(1-5) (Wrath perhaps?), and Sorcery as T1, Cunning would have Wanderer, Savagery (buffed to make more potent than new Ferocity flat damage mastery, perhaps 2-10 or 1.5-7.5?), and Enhanced Memory (1-5% CDR, doesn't boost CDR cap). Resolve would have Recovery, Unyielding, and Vigilance (+1-5% champion vision range).

Perhaps T3 Ferocity could have Spellsword (Old masteries that were +damage on spells after AAs and + damage on AAs after spells), with T5 having United Destruction (+1-5% Physical and Magic pen) or even something very unique, Barrage (flat .1-.5 seconds off CD of spell after CDR).

Anyway, you get the point. We don't have enough diversity in tree.

blkKalameet3 votes

The biggest problem I have with the new system is the effects on jungle.

In a patch that saw the damage and resistances of the jungle mobs nurfed, jungleing has become more difficult.

The change to masteries stole away our early damage and and best defenses against the jungle. And at the same time riot made our starting Iitem worse, have a more expensive build path, and we earn less gold in the jungle.

Bard in a Diaper3 votes

forget just masteries, i cant think of a single positive change in this entire preaseason. Nothing is better.

Tis a nice day2 votes

As a support main, I personally quite like the combination of sightstone with support items.

Ryd3r3 votes

Like many of the new changes, like the adc updates and new masteries are in my eyes complete and utter shite. There is no extend to how much I hate these changes. Coming from somebody playing since S2

MrWasjig3 votes

Combine elements from the old mastery trees with this new one. Combine the variety of the old, with the keystones of the new, THAT'S a good mastery tree. Variety, nuance, and one of Riot's many favorite buzz phrases "Meaningful choice".

Dadosa3 votes

The new masteries are garbage. They're powerful and clearly oriented towards certain champions. It'd be fine if there was a lot more diversity, but right now it's just "which champions synergize with the stronger masteries?"

Ralanr2 votes

I've tried all three resolve keystone masteries with Sion. Each one works better for different roles. Grasp of the undying is great top lane, strength of the ages is great jungle, and bond of stone is great when you support.

The only tree I don't like is ferocity.

Red Ryu2 votes

{quoted}

I see myself picking the same stuff over and over again. I don't make any meaningfull choices. Even worse, i am forced to pick useless masteries on a lot of champs because I only have 2 choices so i pick the least bad one.

  • I pick almost the same on every APC, Tank, Support, ADC

  • Too many times I am forced to pick things I don't want

  • I used to pick some flat damage and cdr, defence and utility for supports depening on the situation. Now I am forced to pick tank or scaling AP/AD or even worse %scaling so there is not really a choice anymore.

  • Minor differences in masterie pages between toplaner tank, jungler and support.

  • Unless you are a healer you pick different masteries than your counterpart.

  • The only things that really makes impact are the lv6 keystones. Rest is just crap compared to old mastery tree.

  • I don't make any meaningfull choices as support. There is nothing in which i differentiate myself

  • Non-tank junglers lack decent masteries which to choose from

Things we lost

  • 15% increased range on trinket. I used that one a lot for early cheese during invade
  • easy access to mana or mana regen (meditation)
  • easy access to 5% cdr
  • Generaly speaking APC's lost damage no matter how you look at it
  • The chance to pick AD and AP masteries and Armor/Magic penetration. Now we have to choose between both
  • flat AD and AP. Also usefull for junglers, supports, tanks for better lanephase.
  • flat resistances
  • 10% crit reduction
  • 3% AoE spelldamage reduction
  • Feast for that little extra sustain in lane
  • 20 flat ms
  • extra damage to monsters
  • BUT MOST OF ALL: The ability to shop between every masterie tree for useful and diverse pages for each of your champs. I rather pick a lot of small but useful and impacting masteries than picking useless things just to build up to lv6 keystone.

For supports I agree it is very cut and dry, you will take the same stuff and that will not change.

If they do not want it, that I don't agree with.

Annie can go for more bulk/movement with lower summoner spells/higher health regen, or she can go for stronger burst from ferocity in the early ranks. My guess is Ferocity but again, depends on the mu and what her goal her. She will take cunning in the middle, hands down. She wants to support her burst better and that does it at the bottom better than the others.

The ones at the bottom are stronger and the core of what people are aiming for but honestly I think that was what Riot was going for. Rewarding deeper investment and making champions stand out more.

Miku Lv992 votes

I don't think it's the keystones that ruined diversity. It's the lack of choices in the earlier rows. So many of them are just about... -Am I a jungler or not? -Am I a support or not? -Am I ad or ap? Etc., meaning there's really only 1 choice for a lot of champions with the current setup. I liked it before when rows had 3-4 options. Now most of them only have 2 and you can't even select both from the same row. So there are many many fewer possibilities than before so it's really hard to customize a champion to your liking nearly as much as before.

Athenes Lulu2 votes

The mastery page choices for mages are so limited that I might as well take Windspeaker's on Lulu mid.

It's as if they threw all the focus on keystones, and made everything on its way crap.

BoxOfDOG2 votes

Lol at least it's readable.

I, with it working quite well, had the same mastery page for every single ADC in the game.

Now I can at least understand what I'm putting my points in to, and why.

C9 Scott Free 2 votes

I just feel like the mage junglers got shafted pretty hard with the patch. You kind of need reduced jungle mob damage but at the same time ferocity but you also need the cunning tree perks for mages and it is just a big mess that they didn't do well IMO

Bloodhawk952 votes

100% agree. I really like the 10% crit reduction for playing tanks, it really helps out

Reaper Soraka2 votes

I bet every single utility support can feel the difference on their trinket cd.

RIP Intelligence mastery, lowering your item cool-downs by 20%

BreadWithButter2 votes

ADC-s benefit benefit from those masteries much more than mages. Just see that first mastery in offensive tree - +4% as vs +2% spell damage. I would rather have that old 5% cdr than this sht.

Only Play Darius2 votes

I really, really want to get 45% CDR on Nasus

But the 3% HP steal is the only mastery that works on Nasus

So much for diversity.

I don't mind having strong keystone masteries that function more like perks, but it could have been implemented better

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