"Give up tons of farm and wait for late game" is the most unfun "counterplay" imaginable.

TotalJerk·Oct 18, 2017·99 votes·5,257 views

The most frustrating thing about top lane for people who don't play the role often are fucking "lane bullies". Champions like whom essentially make you feel like you're playing from behind the moment the laning phase starts because they will blow your ass up the moment you attempt to step to a minion near them. If you didn't counterpick them directly for one reason or another, you have to just hang back like a bitch and fall behind in farm until the late game comes and these champions fall off on their own. It's honestly downright emasculating to have fucking Renekton sit his fat scaly ass on top of your waves free farming while you give up minion after minion just because he is there. It ends up being a test of how much you can take before you get frustrated and try to eke out a cannon minion at the wrong moment.

152 Comments

DengedenOct 18, 201735 votes

Which champion are you playing? It's Garen isn't it? Stop playing Garen.

GGLineaROct 18, 201724 votes

You can actually play Garen into Riven.

It's really funny watching her not able to do anything against your silence and spin.

Then again, I also get a deep satisfaction whenever I see a Riven get ulted by Urgot, so maybe I've just got a tiny vendetta.

TotalJerkOct 18, 20176 votes

Since the rework Garen is shit against Riven. He can't catch her and when he does the reward is pitiful, so she doesn't have to interact with him at all.

OyddAWqJ5rOct 18, 201719 votes

You just sit in the wave and farm like normal. If she goes on you you basically just activate QW then E after Q then back up until your CD's come back. It... works lol. W reduces her stun so the only thing you really have to play around is her non-reduceable Q3.

But ofcourse, being honest, you're better off not playing Garen ever.

RouwhorstOct 18, 20174 votes

Riven can easily cancel Garen's Q with her own 3th Q, or negate it with her E. Afterwards, Garen's Q and maybe even E is on cooldown and riven can re-engage quickly and thus win the trade. If Garen starts with his spin (which does not do that much dmg in a minion wave), Riven can stun and walk/dash away. The 3th Q -> W -> E (excluding aa's) of riven is quite hard to counter play.

masterdomloOct 18, 20177 votes

a good garen know not 2 run into the enemy, but let the enemy run into them. max spam ur w for all poke lowering the damage to min and if its a cc spell it goes on cd without any impact. then when they engage u e first, not q, q is for chasing after a skirmish and stoping flashes or for running away. build items like item 3076 or item 3751 so they get damage for even trying 2 poke u. u can free farm ez under tower thx 2 no mana. and ur ult deals a shit load of damage

TotalJerkOct 18, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tTeihRZE,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-18T15:25:56.128+0000)

If she goes on you...

She wont. That's the problem. She'll just free farm and then dash/shield away if you try to do anything to her.

OyddAWqJ5rOct 18, 20175 votes

It goes both ways. Garen can't go on Riven cuz dashes and Riven can't go on Garen (except Q3) cuz silence.

So both end up just farming until they can punish the other for a slight miss-step.

HeimerLmaoOct 18, 20175 votes

Or play Donger into Riven. It's so damn fun to watch her go in and get dong bombed and combod for half oh her hp...

LuxannaVeritasOct 18, 201718 votes

Garen [sg-ahri-3]

Kled [sg-ahri-2]

Death RexOct 18, 20172 votes

I see what you did there. Upvoted.

IronwallJacksonOct 18, 20175 votes

This is true. I specifically pick Kled into Riven and rush Death's Dance so that she simply can't kill me.

AirKingNeoOct 18, 20171 votes

Why should someone stop playing a champion because Riot refuses to balance their game?

Would should I not have fun playing who I want and follow Riot's enforced meta just to win?

LuxannaVeritasOct 18, 20172 votes

This is my opinion, but if you're playing a champion that doesn't win lane against most match-ups, then you shouldn't complain about not being able to win lane.

The role of tanks and juggernauts are to be able to do their duties of soaking damage and/or dealing damage come late game. To balance this out, they must have a weak early game. Champions like Renekton, Pantheon, and Jayce are all really good early/mid game, but their damage seems to fall off late game when more items get completed on the enemy team, especially the tanks.

In short, you can play whichever champion you want. It becomes a problem when you want your champion to not have a critical weakness that balances them.

warpenguin555Oct 18, 201727 votes

You know what's just as bad? "Win before ___ gets 2-3 items" I hate how Riot actually thinks that having a bad early/mid/late game as a champions only weakness is healthy

LankPantsOct 18, 201723 votes

Irelia really isn't a lane bully in the same sense as the others. She's actually super weak very early on, she can't even threaten anything until level 2 unlike every other champ you listed and she has no way to outrade until level 3 and even then her trades tend to be quite weak until she has points in W. Really Irelia starts to come online at around level 5-6 when she gets a Sheen or a Phage, significantly later than all the other actual lane bullies you mentioned.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 18, 201712 votes

Riven can't threaten anyone until level 2 or 3, Renekton needs level 2, Pantheon takes until level 2 or 3 to become threatening (until then, even his spears don't do much to you), Jayce doesn't do much to you until level 2 or 3, Quinn only bullies you because range versus melee...

No champion is threatening at level 1, except for the rare exceptions of someone like Blitz.

LankPantsOct 18, 201724 votes

Riven can't threaten anyone until level 2 or 3

Her Q and passive alone can deal upwards or 250 damage at level 1, she's definitely threatening at lv 1.

Renekton needs level 2

He can however outrade anyone with his Q and easily gain that early level 2 with his AoE.

Pantheon takes until level 2 or 3 to become threatening (until then, even his spears don't do much to you)

Jayce doesn't do much to you until level 2 or 3,

Quinn only bullies you because range versus melee...

I'm just going to handle all 3 of these together because they do the same thing, they use the threat of ranged damage to zone you while having a backup to make sure they outrade if you aggress on them. Panth has his shield, Jayce has an extra spell and his absurd melee passive damage and Quinn just E's back.

All of these champs have strengths that allow them to start winning lane at level 1, Irelia on the other hand does not. Her spells are janky on their own, if she starts Q she can force but never outrade, if she starts W she can outrade but never force and if she starts E she can turn aggro but not really force or outrade unless the enemy goes far too aggressive into her. Even at level 2 this problem persists. She absolutely needs all of her spells to function, unlike the other champs listed and her spells have a lot of power in the /lv portion (other than Q) which leads to her hardest powerspikes being at levels 5,7,9,13 and Triforce, which by the way is a terible item to try to bully with because the stats on the components just can't compete with something like a Serated Dirk and the complete item comes super late compared to a Black Cleaver.

I don't think it matters which way you cut it, Irelia's really not a lane bully. Sure she can bully certain stupid picks into her like Yasuo but the majority of champs who go top aren't pressured super hard by her early.

If the OP was looking for an extra champ Gnar would have made much more sense.

Sun Wu RyuumokuOct 18, 20173 votes

Ill begin by this : Thanks u, u make me gain some times.

I don't think it matters which way you cut it, Irelia's really not a lane bully. Sure she can bully certain stupid picks into her like Yasuo but the majority of champs who go top aren't pressured super hard by her early.

Funny... Thats exactly the match up he lost

If the OP was looking for an extra champ Gnar would have made much more sense.

yeah... or the other yordle

MuffledGarbageOct 18, 20172 votes

to be fair Poppy hasn't been good for a while (unless you were talking about Kled in which case that makes MUCH more sense)

parrot6632Oct 18, 20174 votes

nah he meant teemo

Sun Wu RyuumokuOct 19, 20172 votes

yeah

DuskDaUmbreonOct 18, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Her Q and passive alone can deal upwards or 250 damage at level 1, she's definitely threatening at lv 1.

I'm going to point out her absolute garbage health regen at all stages, and absolute lack of survivability at level 1.

Sure, she has a bit of damage. And if she tries to do anything to you without some way to survive doing something to you (shield or stun), she's going to lose far more than she deals to you. Which is really bad for her, given that now she's going to have to suffer with not healing for shit for the next 5-10 minutes before she can actually do something.

Riven simply doesn't have presence level 1.

And Irelia has her BS "Yes you won the trade but that means I actually won the trade because now you're stunned and taking a lot of damage" ability. Tell me how that's not a lane bully?

LankPantsOct 18, 20176 votes

Both of these are answered by the same solution. A player who isn't horrible at the game realises they have an advantage and uses said advantage to zone the enemy rather than just trying to all in them over and over again like a monkey.

When a level 1 Riven stands infront of a creepwave and I'm Irelia I need to cede at least some CS to her. It's not as bad as a Jayce or Gnar where I'll probably end up ceding more of the wave than I get but a good player can still use Riv's level 1 damage to deny in this way.

Same goes for Irelia. A good player doesn't just shove up the wave when they win a trade if they can help it, they freeze and deny CS. If Irelia can't get to the wave she can't heal, and if she has to go through a Renekton she ain't getting to the wave.

THE RlVER KlNGOct 18, 20178 votes

Literally every champ in the game is vulnerable at level 1 lol unless ur a fizz who started e or something

'She's weak at level one only' isn't a weakness or counterplay at all

Also I'm pretty sure Riot buffed Riven's health regen a while back specifically in order to counteract her infamous lack of 'sustain'. She also buys lifesteal after BC unless she's cheesing with Yomuus. Riven's still one of the most statistically successful top laners alongside Kled and J4 with a good pick rate and winrate for such a 'hard' champion. She's obnoxious and anti-fun to lane against. If she gets just one kill you have to hug turret for the rest of the game and pray for a gank, which probably won't work anyway with all her dashes and AoE damage/CC. Same for Renek and the other champs listed here. It's stupid.

PhDs NutsOct 18, 201716 votes

Pick Taric top and just whack them to death at hyperspeed until you run out of mana [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

LankPantsOct 18, 20173 votes

If you don't rank Q you can actually not OOM instantly.

Voluug13Oct 18, 20177 votes

Yeah this is true his mana buffs made it so his WE dont use much mana.

The real mana sink its his Q, which on top lane is only used when you absolutely need to for the passive proc, because at rank 1 its absolutely horrible and Riot refuses to allow it to have solo extra efficiancy like old Q.

Red WreckageOct 18, 201714 votes

in my elo everytime I see any of these champs picked, i know right away to camp these fkers to no end....cause about 95% of these idiots who play them always go for "punishing" the enemy laner, trying to harass them for no reason. and are usually extended far up our top tower's ass for ultra easy ganks

JorenciceOct 18, 201712 votes

The answer is always karthus.

Can farm from far enough away to be immune to all top laners and can press R to get kills without leaving the lane.

Ive been 7/0 top lane having not killed the enemy top laner once.

DoktorKaiserOct 18, 20172 votes

How is that different from GP, except for the fact that if I am Karthus enemy can flash-CC me and instaburst me while GP can cleanse that shit and survive, not to mention his ulti is much easier to get assists/kills with across the map and it has a lower cooldown than requiem?

DuskDaUmbreonOct 18, 201713 votes

Requiem can't miss, can't be flashed out of, nukes harder, and Karthus's passive means that you can usually trade 1 for 1 if they dive you - which is automatically advantageous for you if you're taking a high AP build.

CytheGuyOct 18, 20178 votes

Karthus ult doesn't need to be aimed, his Q is on a MUCH lower cd, and just standing near Karthus hurts you. Also Karthus has mana sustain and the fight doesn't end when you die.

JorenciceOct 18, 20176 votes

{quoted}

How is that different from GP, except for the fact that if I am Karthus enemy can flash-CC me and instaburst me while GP can cleanse that shit and survive, not to mention his ulti is much easier to get assists/kills with across the map and it has a lower cooldown than requiem?

Wut?

Flash has a 425 range. Karthus q has a 825 range and you can fire and forget it and it has a 1 second cd... thats not at all like GP.

Not to mention you can solo most top laners if they are dumb enough to jump you.

Simply pop exhaust hit them with W so they take 15% more damage and turn on E and spam Q since they are probly going to try to dps race you. And not many champions that can dps race a karthus hitting his q every second. Ive out dpsed a 6 item build glass cannon yi who tried to face tank my damage.

And you can EASILY use mobility moves to get out of GP ult. You cant with karthus ult. Not to mention it hits all 5 people so you can enable dives for other lanes since their enemy just got chunked for 250 at level 6.

Karthus is simply the ultimate top laner.

EDIT: heh i checked karthus is currently 7th among top laners while GP is 24th.

FloupiOct 18, 201712 votes

[deleted]

Ben SharpioOct 18, 20176 votes

Why is janna unbanned
What is your jungler doing?

LeonerdoOct 18, 20173 votes

Honestly, Janna's not that great anymore, and she's super exploitable in the laning phase. Janna has only maintained a decent presence in the game because everyone is playing into the passive bot-lane meta that she's the best in.

Frontline FuryOct 18, 20179 votes

Top lane in a nutshell. These guys go insane when you actually know how to beat them though. (Read: Pick the right champion to beat them)

Yma SOct 18, 20176 votes

Riven is an abomination of game design that should have never existed. Not even old Vlad was this Toxic.

the rioter who thought he made Riven was jerking off to how amazing, creative, and egdy that he thinks himself of.

no Riven isn't creative or cool Riot, she's fucking Trash and no one likes her design.

BlåbæretOct 18, 20177 votes

Yasuo

PopcornBunniOct 19, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yma S,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tTeihRZE,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-10-18T19:17:41.409+0000)

Riven is an abomination of game design that should have never existed. Not even old Vlad was this Toxic.

the rioter who thought he made Riven was jerking off to how amazing, creative, and egdy that he thinks himself of.

no Riven isn't creative or cool Riot, she's fucking Trash and no one likes her design.

Riven's gameplay design is a fucking embarrassment. Q cooldown starting from the time of its first cast means she can keep it on an effective 1 second cooldown and harass forever because she's manaless.

Her shield is on a similarly absurd cooldown and lets her take 2-3 tower shots. Keep in mind Poppy had her shield nerfed dramatically because it was "free," in conjunction with courage of the colossus, which later got nerfed itself, leaving her just plain fucking weaker than before the mastery was introduced. But Riven? Nah let's let her get an empowered auto attack attached to a dash and a shield for no mana cost and on a 10 second cooldown. We'll also let this defensiveoffensive skill scale with ONE HUNDRED PERCENT bonus AD so she doesn't even have to build defensively to make the most of it. Oh and it goes down to a 6 second cooldown with rank.

We'll also give her a knockup to invalidate tenacity, and a stun that can be linked from that knockup before it finishes so her opponent has no way of countering the followup R slash. And that stun will also scale with ONE HUNDRED PERCENT bonus AD.

It's honestly disgusting. Being a manaless character should come with drawbacks in either phase-specific damage gating, longer cooldowns, vulnerable downtime on missed skills, or fragility. Instead Riven is a lane bully and a hypercarry simultaneously, has virtually nonexistent cooldowns, escape options for days if she mispositions, and a reliable, repeatable shield on top of otherwise still average defenses.

GGLineaROct 18, 20174 votes

Even if you do play the Role often, it still feels that way.

Then again, I main Yorick , so it's not like I shouldn't expect it.

OyddAWqJ5rOct 18, 20175 votes

Same. But I always feel like there's definitely room to outplay each of them. Haven't fought a Quinn with Yorick yet tho idk how that'd go since she can vault out of the wall.

The rest of those matchups I'm totally comfortable in.

GGLineaROct 18, 20175 votes

Never fought a Jayce or Irelia as Yorick, but I win reliably against everyone else there.

Quinn is fucking annoying. However, that's all she has going for her. If you can land your Es with ghouls up, you will autowin trades. Once you hit 6, she's a joke. But, so are most people.

I've never lost against a Riven as Yorick. Most of them are pathetic, though, so it may just be that I haven't met a good one yet.

Pantheon and Renekton are also fucking annoying, and that's all they are. I don't lose lane or the game to them, but they make me want to tear my hair out every time they are played.

DoozkuOct 18, 20172 votes

Trust me a good riven would tear you apart if your not careful. I thought riven was an easy matchup until i faced a good riven who did half my health in one trade and I was like wtf.

GGLineaROct 18, 20173 votes

Sounds like you just took a bad trade.

The reason I've never lost against a Riven is in part because they weren't "good", but also because I am always careful.

No matter how good they are, they can't tear me apart if I know what's coming before it happens, because I can react to it.

Yorick is one of the few champs who have tools for just about everything. It's great.

Crimsonninja117Oct 18, 20172 votes

Riven IS not a lane bully?[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Tychusfindlay918Oct 18, 201716 votes

{quoted}

Riven IS not a lane bully?[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Riven IS A LANE BULLY.

What makes her even shittier than the other champions is that she has insane dueling scale on top of it compared to everyone else up there as well as a strong AoE ultimate that can make her useful in teamfights.

TotalJerkOct 18, 20172 votes

In a lot of matchups she very much is. She absolutely dominates the lane.

Automated RivenOct 18, 20174 votes

To be fair. On the flip side she gets destroyed. She doesn't really have a lot of even matchups aside from Yorick pre six. Most of them she is either destroying or getting destroyed. You could argue that fiora is a skill matchup too I guess.