Armor still worthless going into pre season

The thigh guy·Nov 15, 2018·15 votes·3,071 views

Even more so now. Black cleaver + lord dominiks + new guinsuu. That’s 69% armor pen before lethality? What the hell? Why is armor being shat on so hard? Armor items aren’t even built for armor anymore. Deadman’s? Movement speed and a slow Randuins? Crit damage reduction and a slow Thornmail? Grevious wounds Even the armor on tabi’s Is only useful for all of 2 minutes before the enemy gets a lethality item.

It’s bad enough that there’s more true damage than any tank player can deal with, but now what little damage we do prevent is just being shoved even further down our throats.

31 Comments

ankoanko19Nov 15, 201813 votes

Rageblade n last whisper items dont stack. Typical this gets upvoted.

Who Fed RuNov 15, 201811 votes

I love when people make it seem like you can just go those items without heavy tradeoffs. Name one champ who goes item 3124 item 3071 item 3036 as his standard build.

Even the armor on tabi’s Is only useful for all of 2 minutes before the enemy gets a lethality item.

Here comes the heavy bullshit. Tabis counter Lethality, not the other way around.

The thigh guyNov 15, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tRvMf6ZE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-15T21:28:22.222+0000)

I love when people make it seem like you can just go those items without heavy tradeoffs. Name one champ who goes as his standard build.

Here comes the heavy bullshit. Tabis counter Lethality, not the other way around.

90% of games have a black cleaver in it. And getting a last whisper item is almost core on ANY ad champion.

And no. Tabis don’t counterplay lethality. It’s 25 armor. Between the lethality rune and a youmuus tabis are gone. So you forced the enemy into a zhonya next? Well gg their damage.

saltranNov 15, 20188 votes

And getting a last whisper item is almost core on ANY ad champion.

Wait what

Doge2020Nov 15, 20182 votes

But a tabi rush as your first item against a champ that rushes duskblade or other lethality items is very effective. The Tabi counters the very small amount of lethality that serrated dirk gives, and the 20% damage reduction on autos is very helpful because most duskblade assassins use an auto attack/enhanced auto attack to proc the serrated dirk/duskblade.

Yes having tabi as your only armor item against like a talon or zed isn’t that effective during mid game. But it is still a very good item to rush before the talon/zed buys the duskblade. Tabi is effective when you combine it with more armor items and especially health.

Who Fed RuNov 15, 20182 votes

Between the lethality rune and a youmuus tabis are gone. So you forced the enemy into a zhonya next? Well gg their damage.

Exactly. You need a whole item completed just to negate the armor the enemy gets from his 1100 gold boots. Plus the boots reduce auto attack damage on top of that. And if your enemy gets item 3191 and stacks it you already countered the Lethality part of more than 2 Lethality items. GG their damage.

90% of games have a black cleaver in it.

And that says what exactly? The item just gives the stuff some champions need and is core on them. It's still a niece item for most AD champs.

And getting a last whisper item is almost core on ANY ad champion.

no?

AlienPrimateNov 16, 20182 votes

You need a lesson in how armor and lethality works. Armor is less effective the more of it you have proven below.

50 armor = 33% damage reduction 100 armor = 50% damage reduction 150 armor = 60% damage reduction 200 armor = 66% damage reduction 250 armor = 71% damage reduction 300 armor = 75% damage reduction

Notice how from 50 to 100 is 13%. You get 13% for buying 50 armor. Now you buy another 100 armor and only gain 16% damage reduction.

Lethality is the exact opposite. Reduce 50 armor to 0 with lethality and they reduce your reduction from 33% to 0. Now if you have 75 armor instead you still have a decent chunk of damage reduction.

TheSingularityNov 16, 20181 votes

With full lethality and pen build an assassin can shred a realistic full armor tank to around 110 armor (so something you'd see in game, not 6 frozen hearts). An example I have a vid of is zed. Full combo, doing anything you please until the ult dmg procs+ignite.

Deals 4500 dmg on average. That's 2 squishies, or almost a tank (depending on the tank) killed in a combo (zed can always keep hitting realistically). A common point is zed ulted a tank. That isn't the point. Zed doesn't have botrk, innate anti tank tools or heavy dps. Yet he's almost managed to one combo the very class meant to hard counter him. Should an assassin do that to squishies? Yes. But they shouldn't even come close to a victory against a tank on even footing.

Who Fed RuNov 16, 20181 votes

If you go an full pen build as Assassin you lack the tools to Assassinate squishies and do the job you are supposed to do. On top of that you need to waste all your resources on the tank, meaning the enemy carries are free to do whatever they want, they can just step forward and dish out damage. And when we are talking about the point in game where people are full build, it will end up fatal as you now have an Assassin without enough damage against squishies and all abilities on CD vs a full build enemy ADC (and prob APC).

And dealing 4500 damage in one combo is only possible if you are doing literally nothing against it, and let him auto attack freely. You should always have cc yourself, and on top of that your team should be near you at that point in the game.

TheSingularityNov 16, 20181 votes

You really do have no clue.

If you go an full pen build as Assassin you lack the tools to Assassinate squishies and do the job you are supposed to do.

What do you think assassins have built since season 2 to kill squishies? armor pen/lethality and armor shred. This build would shred a standard squishes armor down to below 10 with ease. Sure they won't technically deal 4500 dmg, but only because the target will be long dead. Sure they won't deal true damage due to negative resistances, because that's a magic damage thing. But that's irrelevant because again the squishy is long dead

The whole "zed ulted a tank" isn't a counterpoint. This isn't about who he ulted. It isn't even about him as an assassin. It's that they successfully invalidate a build, on the very class meant to counter them to the point they can almost one round them. The zed shouldn't even come CLOSE! to dealing that much damage to a tank. A tank should be that bloody fat that the zed is terrified at the prospect of ulting them. That's how shit was in seasons 3-5 and that's how it should be now. Back then an assassin would be lucky to half health me, that's if they were dumb enough to even try. If they wanted to shred me they'd need BOTRK 4500 dmg almost one shots a tank, pops 2 squishies and kills most bruisers.

It isn't acceptable for assassins to be tanky like in seasons 5 and 6, for marksman to be unkillable, graves season 6, for tanks to deal abusrd damage season 5 or for skirmishers to be unstoppable burst per second machines. So why on earth should it be acceptable for assassins to be able to counter tanks, the very class built to counter assassins?

Who Fed RuNov 16, 20182 votes

AHAHAHAH "Assassins counter tanks" but I have no clue? lmao.

The only thing you are saying here is that Assassins could theoretically deal enough damage to kill a tank with a full pen build (Assassins usually don't even go LW, and Lethality counters low Armor values and is shit against high values), and even that is only possible if the Assassin is ahead af.

Sure, let's say he can, but like I said, are you a target dummy that won't move? Don't you have a team with you? Tanks still counter Assassins, because you simply can cc the Assassin the moment he jumps on you, and then he can easily be killed by your team. To deal 4500 damage you need a full pen build, hit your entire combo and constantly deal autos between it. Hell if there would only be counterplay to that.

The realistic situation looks like this: Talon hops on Poppy --> Poppy laughs, Ults him, E's him and laughs again while the team is killing the perma cc'ed Assassin.

On top of that in realistic situations with realistic builds and an Assassin that isn't like 3 levels above the tank he will never solo kill the tank, not in season 4 and not yet. We live in a world where 2 item 1029 already completely negate the Lethality values of item 3147 + item 3134 , and that even only on Level 18 as Lethality scales, before that it even negates more than the value. And now you want to tell me that it's the other way around?

Assassins countering tanks holy shit you make me laugh.

TheSingularityNov 16, 20181 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaHo_U8PWKY The build isn't lethality because otherwise the dummy would hit 0 armor. So that build gives zed the ad, cdr and reduces the dummies armor as he would with a full armor shred build.

That is 2 full build champs, on equal footing, same level but one almost one shotting the other

Who Fed RuNov 16, 20181 votes

And what exactly are you trying to tell me now? That damage dealers on lvl18 deal a lot of damage if you let them? That you can get unrealistic damage numbers in practice mode that you will never get in a real game? You didn't even have one counterargument to what I said. And even then, the video you showed is just pure BS and is nowhere near a realistic situation.

The dummy has 100 armor. When it's level 18, no Assassin would reduce the Armor of a tank to 100 if he build against Armor. Poppy for example already has 100 Base Armor on lvl18. Just item 3025 + item 3068 + item 3047 + item 3143 would take her armor to 300 already, and that's just 4 items of 6.

A Zed with item 3071 item 3036 would then reduce her armor by 35%+(24%*65%) = 50.6% with procentual values, now she would have 150 Armor, add in 40 Lethality from Dusk and Ghostblade and she would have 110 effective armor. With 6 against 4 items. And a build focused on tank shredding. On top of that she could have 2 more items that could also be armor items.

Then there comes the thing that you build 4 item 3812 , who each give 80 AD, and ended up with 512AD. If you decide to go item 3071 item 3036 , you would need both items to get the same AD of just one Deaths Dance as they only give 40, and Lethality items also don't give near 80 AD.

Make your "experiment" with ~320 AD again, and then you would come closer into the direction what a realistic damage value of a fed Assassin that is 2 items over the enemy tank that just got his 4th item yet is. It would already be far lower. And even that is only if he hits all his spells and gets free autos all the time.

Then there comes the fact that this video is against a target dummy who doesn't move and lets the Zed attack during his Ult freely for 3 seconds and hit all his spells for free, which is also not a realistic scenario.

But honestly I don't know what exactly you are trying to tell me here. That "experiment" I'm gonna call it now is just biased BS that isn't nowhere representing a realistic scenario.

I could also just go into practice mode now, deal 10000 damage in a few seconds against a dummy as Soraka with a late game crit build and say "wOw, sOrAkA iS a tAnK sHrEdDeR nOw!", point proven. You see that that's BS?

Assassins don't counter tanks, never did and will never do, and your false practice mode videos won't prove anything else.

TheSingularityNov 16, 20181 votes

Direct cut and paste from my old post detailing the math behind it and the items used.

It is there to demonstrate that it can and does happen.

I did a test a while ago to display how much damage zed could deal within a set time frame.

Did it again but decided to record the outcome this time.

As Zed and at level 18 I have 512 AD, 54 lethality and a 59% armor shred with the following build:

As at left 18, after 10 minutes (so I get rune boosts as well) building to counter Zed, with I have 4659 base HP. With active and W I have 6522 HP 1v1 and 9318 HP if surrounded in a team fight (3+people) for the engagement duration. And then 337 armor.

Now I could have gotten more armor, but I was trying to be realistic (randuins/thorn are sub optimal in this situation. Iceborn offers less effective health than any of these items)

So for a little math 407-54=283 Then 283/100=2.83 2.83 X 59= 167 Therefore 283-167=116 armor at the end of armor reduction. So the dummy will have a little less armor but that will be considered. So instead zed will have item 3812 item 3133 item 1036 to give us the 40% CDR and 512 AD.

There is one rule for this engagement. I can only attack the dummy until my ult damage goes off. Until then I can AA and spam spells all I like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaHo_U8PWKY&feature=youtu.be

I didn't do it perfectly, was able to fit in a third E in some cases making the result about 4700. But despite that, 4451 burst damage is enough to kill 2-3 squishies with ease. And that's without zed passive since the dummy never drops below 50% HP and without zed building item 3153 to counter my health stack. And in reality zed has access to item 3139 to escape CC and can always keep autoing after his ult goes off.

Who Fed RuNov 17, 20181 votes

That also doesn't consider the fact that in late game, rarely any squishy will have 2000 HP only.

ADCs have lifesteal, and I mean A LOT of that so they can easily steal thousands of health back in a fight, APCs have Zhonyas. Not to mention that it's nowhere realistic that an Assassin can freely attack and hit all his spells during his ult (I feel like I'm repeating myself there).

Then there comes your math:

So for a little math 407-54=283

?????????? I honestly don't know what you calculated there and after that.

If a target has let's say 400 Armor, and the Zed has item 3036 + item 3071 , He has 35%+(24%*65%) = 50%. It has been said multiple times by me and other people that the shred from BC and the % armor pen from whisper don't stack additive. And, what you also didn't ever consider in your "experiment", is that BC needs 6 attacks to stack, so for the first attacks you will only have like 35%-45% pen. But let's neglect that because your math is still also completely off in other points.

So let's say he would have 50% armor pen from the beginning with max cleaver stacks, + 54 Lethality. 400*50% = 200 200 - 54 = 146

So with a full Armor build and when you calculate it in a way that he would have max cleaver stacks from the beginning, the enemy would have 146 Armor left.

But then idk how you got 512 AD with Zed with that build. It's a full pen build, there is no way that you can even get close to that number with pen items only. Zed has 120 Base AD at lvl 18

120+ item 3147 55+ item 3142 55+ item 3814 55+ item 3036 40+ item 3071 40+ item 2140 30 = 395 AD

So IDK if you had like 3 infernals, baron and elder, but with that build you won't even come close to 500AD. You probably would just reach 400 with runes.

I didn't do it perfectly, was able to fit in a third E in some cases making the result about 4700. But despite that, 4451 burst damage is enough to kill 2-3 squishies with ease. And that's without zed passive since the dummy never drops below 50% HP and without zed building to counter my health stack. And in reality zed has access to to escape CC and can always keep autoing after his ult goes off.

I love how you always throw out "in reality" even if nothing is nearly realistic. No, you can't kill 2-3 squishies with ease. You don't consider the ridiculous amount of lifesteal, shield values and damage in general that's there in a level 18 teamfight. Sure, if all your enemies DC and are basically a dummy you can get a free penta, but you never considered once that Zed also isn't the tankiest of all characters. You make it sound like you can just Ult in, hit your spells, attack 3-4 times during your Ult and use item 3140 to keep attacking. I'm making a suggestion to you. Now go into practice mode again with an ADC, get a late game build, and watch the DPS. Then do your calculations again so they fit against a Zed with 2000HP late game and no defensive items and you'll see what would happen if you just go in like you say what's supposed to be a "realistic situation".

And that's only the damage of the ADC. In a late game teamfight, you are lucky if you can get one auto off as Zed before you have to go back to your shadow.

There is one rule for this engagement. I can only attack the dummy until my ult damage goes off. Until then I can AA and spam spells all I like

Exactly this part is the biggest BS. Idk what games you play, but in my games I can't just /all "hey guys, how about in the next fight you let me free attack for 3 seconds without you guys doing anything, and after that I won't do anything anymore!" with the enemy agreeing.

The only thing you proved is that damage numbers in late game are ridiculously high if you are able to constantly attack and hit your stuff for free, but that has always been like this, and definitely doesn't represent any realistic situation as your enemies can definitely pull off minimum the same damage to you if you let them attack freely for 3 seconds, especially the ADC would probably already take 40% of your live with one crit.

GigglesONov 16, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tRvMf6ZE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-15T21:28:22.222+0000)

I love when people make it seem like you can just go those items without heavy tradeoffs. Name one champ who goes as his standard build.

Here comes the heavy bullshit. Tabis counter Lethality, not the other way around.

So Just gonna throw this out there.

Black cleaver stacks for your allies. Lord dom is for yourself.

So if you have a say darius with black cleaver, and your adc has a last whisperer upgrade they get both pen.

The real obscenity are conqueror and Infinity Edge.

Critmaster GarenNov 15, 20185 votes

% armor pen and shred doesnt stack additive.

i didnt do the math, but almost 70% sounds already wrong. the reality is probably going to be around between 40% and 50%.

AlzonNov 15, 20183 votes

Yes, a Garen player knows how %shreds stack :)

Romans VI XXIIINov 16, 20182 votes

Yes we do.

HP CrookshanksNov 15, 20184 votes

Don't forget Conqueror. [sg-miss-fortune]

The thigh guyNov 15, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=HP Crookshanks,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tRvMf6ZE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-15T21:32:38.396+0000)

Don't forget Conqueror. [sg-miss-fortune]

Tbh. I’ve given up arguing about conquerer. It’s not that broken when you compare it to the insane amounts of pen.

Iota ThetaNov 15, 20184 votes

Fortunately, it’ll only be cleaver + one of the other two. LDR, Mortal Reminder, and the new Guinsoo’s all have their armor pen listed as

Unique Passive: Last Whisper

So they won’t stack. I believe only the stronger of the two will be taken if all 3-4 are bought, which would be LDR/Mortal Reminder?

Edit: typos

AlzonNov 15, 20182 votes

Tbh I think it would be fine if they did stack. What champion would build those, while still being able to go toe-to-toe with enemy damage dealers? This is a build fully invested into tankbusting. I’m fine with this tradeoff.

JinxalotNov 15, 20182 votes

I guess we go pure health Maybe there should be a new Boot with Heath + Heath Regen

The thigh guyNov 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I guess we go pure health Maybe there should be a new Boot with Heath + Heath Regen

Health won’t work for 2 big reasons. Blade of the ruined king is a thing And ad damage is repeatable, so your effective health is always so low you can’t tank them for more than 1-3 seconds.

FCJAAAAGOOOONov 16, 20182 votes

To be fair, those items don't involve truckloads of damage on their own - especially Guinsoo's after this change - and I'm pretty sure no one will be able to rush all 3 even remotely comfortably.

Also I'd be extremely impressed if 69% was the actual armor reduction.

Edit: LW and Guinsoo's don't even stack LOL

NyarlathοtepNov 15, 20181 votes

Em lord dominks and rageblade cant stack. They share the same unique ability.

Need Gold 4 TentNov 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Em lord dominks and rageblade cant stack. They share the same unique ability.

Shame. I wanted to do my ultrapen kog maw that would've been pretty useless anyway.

Meep ManNov 15, 20181 votes

Guinsoo's doesn't stack with Dominks dude.

Daddy AntsNov 16, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tRvMf6ZE,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-11-15T21:16:03.604+0000)

Even more so now. Black cleaver + lord dominiks + new guinsuu. That’s 69% armor pen before lethality?

Lmao. It's not 69%, where did you get those numbers from?

The armor penetration on the new Rageblade is UNIQUE PASSIVE - Last Whisper: meaning it WILL NOT STACK with Lord Dominik's or Mortal Reminder.

The Magic Penetration on new Rageblade and on Void Staff has been changed to UNIQUE PASSIVE - Dissolve: meaning they will not stack.

When 2 or more items share the same passive effect, the stronger effect is the one that's used... which in this case is the Lord Dominiks and the Void Staff.

Buying item 3124 item 3036 will not give you 50% armor penetration, it will give you 35%. Buying item 3135 will not give you 55% magic penetration, it will give you 40%.