Tank stats are still worthless.

The thigh guy·Jan 6, 2019·65 votes·17,338 views

Short and simple. The game has way too much of a few things

Armor pen Mr pen %pen in general And max hp damage.

Tank stats are suppose to counter damage. So to give tank stats counterplay you made these. But these are taking over everything.

I mean. Why go for an item like blood thirster when you can get Bork, and do endless amounts more.

Why go for a crit build, then you can get a much cheaper pen build and still do way more damage.

I get it. Tank stats need counterplay.

But when I have 700 armor and it can be shredded down to 70 by any champion with % pen in its build, we have a problem.

And true damage just needs to be overall reduced to fringe cases like it used to be.

What is the counter to a fiora who deals 108% max hp true damage over 4.5 seconds? What are you suppose to build against that? Can’t cleanse her ult. Can’t build hp. Can’t build armor.

That leaves you with 1 option. Build damage and try to nuke her out faster than she can you.

Long story short. Damage is so high and makes tank stats so irrelevant that it’s only counter is more damage. And that’s a load of crap.

95 Comments

FTGloryJan 6, 201910 votes

Agreed in every word sir. +1

EthreainAmbusherJan 6, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Agreed in every word sir. +1

I agree to your agree. +1

FTGloryJan 6, 20194 votes

Thanks for agreeing me . +1

Dasdi96Jan 6, 201910 votes

Every time I play a tank jungle, I am reminded how miserable it is. Even if you don't get fucked in the early game, the amount of insane tank shred in the game means you will never survive more than 5 seconds under the focus of at least 2 seconds. This is why the winrates of the tank junglers are so low.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/nautilus/jungle 43.8% for nautilus

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/zac/jungle 47.9% for zac

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/sejuani/jungle 44.6% for sejuani

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/gragas/jungle 47.1% for gragas

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/amumu/jungle ok, 50.8% winrate for amumu, which is decent

A reason for this is that item 1413 is the worst it has ever been.

A i Bot 0Jan 6, 20192 votes

They have very slow clear speeds and often spend a good amount of their resources just on jungling

Dasdi96Jan 6, 20198 votes

[{quoted}](name=A i Bot 0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lfsWj1Jo,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-01-06T03:16:44.283+0000)

They have very slow clear speeds and often spend a good amount of their resources just on jungling

So what ends up happening is that the tank jungler will almost always be playing from behind, which doesn't work with this "feast or famine" tank design in which if you don't snowball the early game as a tank, you will just blow up every teamfight.

GigglesOJan 6, 20195 votes

Used to be that tank stats > Damage early Damage > Tank late

Now its just Damage> everything else*

*Unless you somehow get super fed on cho or sion.

ImGodlyatYasuoJan 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Used to be that tank stats > Damage early Damage > Tank late

Now its just Damage> everything else*

*Unless you somehow get super fed on cho or sion.

Which has damage.

A i Bot 0Jan 6, 20192 votes

I think Tank junglers need a new route or team help in jungle. But tank junglers would do better if people in lanes plays to farm

Fízz v2Jan 6, 20196 votes

I didnt know there was an item with 90% armor pen tho

The thigh guyJan 6, 201912 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lfsWj1Jo,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-01-06T01:01:51.803+0000)

I didnt know there was an item with 90% armor pen tho

Black cleaver is in every game - 24% Lord dominiks - 35% A large chunk of champions have natural pen ranging from 25%-30% Then add in flat pen from lethality items and runes.

Not to mention conversions from conquerer

LunaranulJan 6, 201923 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lfsWj1Jo,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-01-06T01:05:01.938+0000)

Black cleaver is in every game - 24% Lord dominiks - 35% A large chunk of champions have natural pen ranging from 25%-30% Then add in flat pen from lethality items and runes.

Not to mention conversions from conquerer

Percent armor penetration stacks multiplicatively. A Darius with maxed E, Lord Dominik's, and fully stacking Cleaver on his target only penetrates ~65% of their armor. Not that Darius ever builds Dominik's, or even Cleaver nowadays since he now builds Trinity...

Besides, a lot of that armor pen existed before anyone complained about damage.

Black Cleaver's had armor shred since basically forever, and even had flat pen on top of that before its rework in season 5.
Lord Dominik's nowadays is the exact same item as the old-school Last Whisper, but for 500 more gold.
Champions like Darius and Renekton have always had anti-armor mechanics in their kits.

Even Lethality's not the huge issue some people think it is. Do people not remember the old Ghostblade having 20 flat armor pen the instant you finished it, on top of their flat armor penetration reds? (The issue with Lethality is how much of it is available, and Duskblade being a somewhat overloaded item as it is. So basically it's all Duskblade's fault.)

The problem is that any time a tank meta gets addressed, the solutions are added on top of the still-existing solutions to the previous tank meta. So now we have a meta full of solutions to previous tank metas, which equals a lot of damage.

Moody PJan 6, 201914 votes

I don't have an issue with Lethality but TBH it's a little annoying how you can legitimately stack nothing but armor reduction items

LunaranulJan 6, 201912 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lfsWj1Jo,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-06T01:30:12.785+0000)

I don't have an issue with Lethality but TBH it's a little annoying how you can legitimately stack nothing but armor reduction items

Removing Duskblade and re-remaking Black Cleaver so it doesn't stack with Last Whisper items might help solve that.

Like, give Black Cleaver this for a passive instead.

Unique Passive - Last Whisper: +10% Armor Penetration. While in combat, gain an additional +5% Armor Penetration per second, up to +30% Armor Penetration after 4 seconds.

Something like that. Does anyone even buy Cleaver with the intention of softening up their targets for the ADC anyway?

Moody PJan 6, 20193 votes

I've been asking for BC to be penetration for ages and gotten no traction at all

LordGeovanniJan 6, 20191 votes

im completely fine with it being shred its just that the point that it gets to is far too high 15 should be the max (if we talking about making it a healthy item but you know people be like fuk making it healthy my champion strenght) even if it get more hp up to 200 more hp as compensation.

Moody PJan 6, 20192 votes

would literally be a never buy item on any bruiser

LordGeovanniJan 6, 20193 votes

you say that when i didnt even ask for the broken 20% cdr to be gone. This would allow it to scale harder with the titianic hydra build and help open up lifesteal with being able to survive better. Im sorry but the shred amount is broken and unhealthy it doesnt need to be made better as penetration it needs to be lowered. I know that doesnt serve darius's 70% armor ignore but maybe it shouldnt.

Moody PJan 6, 20193 votes

No it doesn't. It makes the item trash. 15% is dog shit and you'll get laughed out of lane by any tank.

LordGeovanniJan 6, 20193 votes

All of that armor pen existed when there were base armor runes and armor items also did more

LunaranulJan 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

All of that armor pen existed when there were base armor runes and armor items also did more

Armor yellows gave you 9 Armor. You now get 5 Armor from a stat shard (10 if you want to double down on Armor shards), on top of many champions having gotten base Armor buffs since.

Armor on items isn't THAT much lower than it used to be, either. Most of the big-ticket Armor items only have 10 less than they used to.

The current amount of Armor available is probably just right if all the means of ignoring it were toned down a bit.

KynamiJan 6, 20196 votes

Armor Yellows +9 Armor Quints +12 Oldschool Armor Mastery +5 Cloth Armor +15

Used to be you could swag walk into lane with over 40 bonus armor from the start of the game. Was glorious for keeping things like Riven's early game in check as a tank so you'd not immediately be pushed off the lane. She'd definitely start outscaling you within a couple items but you'd be relevant in team fights because you'd not have been completely starved out.

Bonus Round: Oldschool Veteran Mastery +50 HP from level 1 Oldschool Health Regen Mastery 1-2% missing HP/5 Armor Reds +~7 (situational... Malphite/Rammus/Old Taric)

The old defense stats were stronger in runes than offense because offense helped you deal damage, farm, and empowered abilities all at once. Defense was to survive the lane and would be eventually outscaled anyways. Therefore it got to be better early so you could make it to at least mid game to make your plays.

The Bad TouchJan 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Percent armor penetration stacks multiplicatively. A Darius with maxed E, Lord Dominik's, and fully stacking Cleaver on his target only penetrates ~65% of their armor. Not that Darius ever builds Dominik's, or even Cleaver nowadays since he now builds Trinity...

Besides, a lot of that armor pen existed before anyone complained about damage.

Black Cleaver's had armor shred since basically forever, and even had flat pen on top of that before its rework in season 5.

Lord Dominik's nowadays is the exact same item as the old-school Last Whisper, but for 500 more gold.

Champions like Darius and Renekton have always had anti-armor mechanics in their kits.

Even Lethality's not the huge issue some people think it is. Do people not remember the old Ghostblade having 20 flat armor pen the instant you finished it, on top of their flat armor penetration reds? (The issue with Lethality is how much of it is available, and Duskblade being a somewhat overloaded item as it is. So basically it's all Duskblade's fault.)

The problem is that any time a tank meta gets addressed, the solutions are added on top of the still-existing solutions to the previous tank meta. So now we have a meta full of solutions to previous tank metas, which equals a lot of damage.

The issue is back then you'd not be able to afford a build like that until post 50 minutes.

Now people are full build in 30.

Sire HippingtonJan 6, 20192 votes

and in S5, the Season witht he last real tank meta, we had BC with 30% and LW with 35% for 500g less than LD... %pen isn't the reason why tanks feel bad right now, and i honestly rarly see it anymore, most former BC users opt now into trinity and LD is only bought as a late items(and few games get to that point) if at all.

You could remove LW and it's upgrades from the game and hardly anything would changes at all right now. The damage issue comes from other places, like truedamage, %HP and just raws damage and poor defnesive options.

V3LK0ZMAST3RJan 6, 20192 votes

Y,but in S5 Tank build more and more hp (for Tank Was normal have 3000-3500 hp in mid game and 5000-6000 hp in late game).for that pen wasn't a problem.

Who Fed RuJan 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lfsWj1Jo,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-01-06T01:05:01.938+0000)

Black cleaver is in every game - 24% Lord dominiks - 35% A large chunk of champions have natural pen ranging from 25%-30% Then add in flat pen from lethality items and runes.

Not to mention conversions from conquerer

"a large chunk" what fucking champ has 25%+ natural armor pen apart from Darius.

And they don't even stack additive.

The thigh guyJan 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lfsWj1Jo,comment-id=000200000002,timestamp=2019-01-06T14:37:22.685+0000)

"a large chunk" what fucking champ has 25%+ natural armor pen apart from Darius.

And they don't even stack additive.

Darius, gangplank, yasuo, jarvan, wukong, Kayle, Jayce, nasus, renekton, corki, kogmaw, trundle, vi rengar.

Who Fed RuJan 7, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lfsWj1Jo,comment-id=0002000000020000,timestamp=2019-01-06T22:20:24.245+0000)

Darius, gangplank, yasuo, jarvan, wukong, Kayle, Jayce, nasus, renekton, corki, kogmaw, trundle, vi rengar.

Most of those are either highly situational or only affect one ability. Darius is the only one who has permanent armor pen like if you would have bought an item.

The thigh guyJan 7, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lfsWj1Jo,comment-id=00020000000200000000,timestamp=2019-01-07T08:33:59.421+0000)

Most of those are either highly situational or only affect one ability. Darius is the only one who has permanent armor pen like if you would have bought an item.

That’s like saying lissandra only has situational cc, the situation being she uses the ability? Da fuq?

They are all going to use it, it’s not situational if it’s built straight into their kit and they have access to it.

Who Fed RuJan 7, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lfsWj1Jo,comment-id=000200000002000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-07T10:29:25.218+0000)

That’s like saying lissandra only has situational cc, the situation being she uses the ability? Da fuq?

They are all going to use it, it’s not situational if it’s built straight into their kit and they have access to it.

Thing is that the armor reduction isn't permanent, so you can't just act like half of the champions in the game run around with permanent natural armor pen. There are maybe 10 of >150 champions that have armor pen tied to a small to medium big part of their kits.

Daddy AntsJan 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lfsWj1Jo,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-01-06T01:05:01.938+0000)

Black cleaver is in every game - 24% Lord dominiks - 35% A large chunk of champions have natural pen ranging from 25%-30% Then add in flat pen from lethality items and runes.

Not to mention conversions from conquerer

They don't stack additively.

I'm gonna try my hand at some math here.

Let's say for the purpose of this math we have the following

A 6 item Poppy with approximately 400 armor A 6 item Rengar with item 3142 item 3147 item 3071 item 3036 item 3047 item 3026

When attacking, armor penetration and armor reduction are considered in the following order:

Armor reduction, flat -> Armor reduction, percentage -> Armor penetration, percentage -> Lethality.

So if a Level 18 Rengar uses ult and engages on a 400 armor poppy I believe the math would look something like this

The flat Armor reduction from Rengar's ultimate is applied first so it's 400 - 24 = 376 armor.

Then Black Cleaver stacks are applied to that 376 armor. To work out the shred do 376 x 0.24 which is 90.24

At this point Poppy has 285.76 armor.

Lord Dominiks then applies to that 285.76 armor. To work this out it's 285 x 0.35 which is 99.75

At this point Poppy has 186.01 armor.

Then at level 18 Rengar has 39 lethality from Duskblade and Ghostblade.

So deduct 39 from 186.01 which leaves 147.01 armor.

147.01 is 36.75% of 400....

That build removes 63.25% of Poppy's armor.

CdoreJan 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

They don't stack additively.

I'm gonna try my hand at some math here.

 

Let's say for the purpose of this math we have the following

A 6 item with approximately 400 armor A 6 item with

 

When attacking, armor penetration and armor reduction are considered in the following order:

So if a Level 18 Rengar uses ult and engages on a 400 armor poppy I believe the math would look something like this

 

The flat Armor reduction from Rengar's ultimate is applied first so it's 400 - 24 = 376 armor.

Then Black Cleaver stacks are applied to that 376 armor. To work out the shred do 376 x 0.24 which is 90.24

At this point Poppy has 285.76 armor.

Lord Dominiks then applies to that 285.76 armor. To work this out it's 285 x 0.35 which is 99.75

At this point Poppy has 186.01 armor.

Then at level 18 Rengar has 39 lethality from Duskblade and Ghostblade.

So deduct 39 from 186.01 which leaves 147.01 armor.

147.01 is 36.75% of 400....

So almost 64% armor penetration...

lol I did math similar to this a month ago. Tanks are practically wasting over 4K gold on tank items.

AlienPrimateJan 7, 20191 votes

In the above example, 64% armor penetration is misleading. 400 armor is 80% damage reduction and 147 is 60% damage reduction. This means that Rengar doubled his damage, but the number of damage that he is doubling is almost nothing. Twice 100 damage is still only 200 damage and Poppy likely has over 4k health. Now if Poppy hadn't built all that armor, Rengar would reduce 130 armor to 13. 130 is 57% reduction and 13 is 12%. This means that Rengar would go from 215 damage to 443 damage. Rengar more than doubled his damage on a damage number that was already higher on the Poppy who didn't build armor. The Poppy with armor takes less than half the damage of the Poppy without armor.

Assuming Rengar is doing an average of 500 pre mitigated damage per attack, 400 armor Poppy would survive for 20 hits (not including regen and shields) and the Poppy who only built health items would last for 10 hits. If you then factor in that the one lasting 20 hits has more time to stun Rengar, shield herself, and regenerate health she would last probably 3x longer than the one who did not build armor. Explain to me how Poppy is wasting gold by building armor against a Rengar.

CdoreJan 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

In the above example, 64% armor penetration is misleading. 400 armor is 80% damage reduction and 147 is 60% damage reduction. This means that Rengar doubled his damage, but the number of damage that he is doubling is almost nothing. Twice 100 damage is still only 200 damage and Poppy likely has over 4k health. Now if Poppy hadn't built all that armor, Rengar would reduce 130 armor to 13. 130 is 57% reduction and 13 is 12%. This means that Rengar would go from 215 damage to 443 damage. Rengar more than doubled his damage on a damage number that was already higher on the Poppy who didn't build armor. The Poppy with armor takes less than half the damage of the Poppy without armor.

Assuming Rengar is doing an average of 500 pre mitigated damage per attack, 400 armor Poppy would survive for 20 hits (not including regen and shields) and the Poppy who only built health items would last for 10 hits. If you then factor in that the one lasting 20 hits has more time to stun Rengar, shield herself, and regenerate health she would last probably 3x longer than the one who did not build armor. Explain to me how Poppy is wasting gold by building armor against a Rengar.

Getting melted by the non assassins on the enemy team.

AlienPrimateJan 6, 20194 votes

Let's take Darius with maximum penetration possible against 700 armor item 3071 item 3147 item 3142 item 3814 item 3036

Order:

24% reduction = 532 35% penetration = 346 35% penetration = 225 54 lethality (level 18) = 171

Even with a terrible Darius build building full penetration, a 700 armor tank will still have 171 armor which is still 63% damage reduction. Don't try to give me this crap about 700 being reduced to 70.

Looking at a more realistic case of someone who would actually use this build against someone with 300 armor instead, I give you Zed with the same build.

24% reduction = 228 35% penetration = 148 61 lethality = 87 = 47% damage reduction

Zed's gold investment = 14600 Tank's gold investment for 300 armor = 5600

Zed spent 9000 more gold just to get a tank down to 47% damage reduction.

LordGeovanniJan 6, 20195 votes

tank stats dont need counter play because tank stats are out scaled by damage stats which is counter play in it self. if stats like current hp damage exists it shouldn't exceed 4 % on an item like blood thirster and Max hp damage doesnt need to exist in this game much like % true damage. % penetration shouldnt exist but if it does defensive items should be stronger than they are now and the % penetration shouldnt exceed 15%. Flat penetration is okay once it doesnt get supid and break 60 which is all of some peoples defensive stats That being said stop giving tanks effects that need you to not be in combat like sejuani's passive Banshees Veil when it was a tank item and Warmogs passive. Malphites is okay I dont think that it is strong enough for that though i think that it should have two cooldowns one reset by taking damage and the other not reset by tanking damage but on a 30 -15 second cooldown.

Frontline FuryJan 6, 20195 votes

I dont think penetration is a problem. The %max hp is a bit overwhelming, but you know what the real problem is?

CDR.

EVERYONE has access to cooldown reduction EVERYWHERE. EVERY other class than marksman has an extremely easy time hitting 35-40% cooldown reduction with one and a half item. Ultimate cooldowns have all been lowered, averaging around 1 and a half minute with 0% cdr - which practically nobody has anymore.

And everyone is running ignite or conqueror. Ignite has so high damage coupled with so low downtime it's available in every single fight.

chipndip1Jan 6, 20192 votes

Guys...it's 2019. Crit vs. Pen should be sort of "figured out" by now.

Nothing outscales crit damage. It just takes longer to come on. You don't build full pen on marksmen to deal with tanks. You build it to end the game before you have to.

The thigh guyJan 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Guys...it's 2019. Crit vs. Pen should be sort of "figured out" by now.

Nothing outscales crit damage. It just takes longer to come on. You don't build full pen on marksmen to deal with tanks. You build it to end the game before you have to.

Except late game crit still gets beat by pen sooooooo.

chipndip1Jan 6, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lfsWj1Jo,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-01-06T05:27:42.843+0000)

Except late game crit still gets beat by pen sooooooo.

No it doesn't.

The thigh guyJan 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

No it doesn't.

Um yeah. It doesn’t crit is garbage because armor still reduces it slightly. Where as pen builds shred off so much that armor means nothing to them.

So maybe is rngesus is with you and you get 60% crit and all %pen it does. But at that point you’d be better off going full pen.

chipndip1Jan 6, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lfsWj1Jo,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-06T07:06:42.971+0000)

Um yeah. It doesn’t crit is garbage because armor still reduces it slightly. Where as pen builds shred off so much that armor means nothing to them.

So maybe is rngesus is with you and you get 60% crit and all %pen it does. But at that point you’d be better off going full pen.

Pen builds don't have attack speed, and crit builds dip into % pen through LDR/Mortal Reminder

You're blatantly wrong and it'd behoove us both if you'd sort of just cool it here. It's nothing to be offended or ashamed about, but you're blatantly wrong. No one but MF even goes full pen as a marksman these days, and that build hasn't been effective on anyone but her in months, if not a year or so. Even on her, the ONLY thing it helps is her ult. After her ult, she's entirely useless for killing tanks because she lacks attack speed on a full pen build.

Pen kills SQUISHY champs. It was like that when it was flat pen. Changing the name to "lethality" doesn't make this less true.

ShahamutJan 6, 20192 votes

The meta is Damage:

There are only really a few classes of characters in the game atm:

Assassins: Champs that kill you in one rotation of abilities

Other Assassins: These were once bruisers/divers but now just build full damage and assassinate you instead: Renekton/Jax/etc

Juggernauts: Still build mostly damage, takes SLIGHTY longer to instantly kill you than the assassins.

Burst Mages: Mages that effectively assassinate you with a spell rotation.

Those who cant decide: Ahri mains always fight over her being a mage and not an assassin... but...

CC Bots: Champions that have hard cc and didnt get the memo that in order to be meta, you need more damage.

Everyone else: Non meta because they (you guessed it) dont deal enough damage

Wolfalisk318Jan 6, 20192 votes

I agree that Tank stats feel worthless on Tanks. However, when they're utilized by the problem Champions, it rubs salt in the wound even more, because those stats are A-MAZING on them. When you're up against that click-to-win Assassin that has the sense to build a defensive item, not only are they rofldeleting you, they're now invincible too.

The person who devoted one slot to defense is getting more mileage out of defensive stats than a Tank gets when they devote five slots to it.

TobykachuJan 6, 20192 votes

The issue with tanks is that when they become strong, they can legitimately play 4 roles. It's not much fun seeing teams consisting of Ornn/Sejuani/Cho'Gath/Braum + an adc against Maokai/Zac/Galio/Alistar + an adc. If they tied tanks to a role of their own, in much the same way as marksmen are tied to the bot lane, I think they could make tanks strong without them flushing out every other role.

Crescent DuskJan 6, 20191 votes

Neither assassins or fighters should get armor penetration.

Armor penetration should be an ADC only stat on item. If a non ADC were to buy said item the stat should be converted to bonus HP.

Give fighters better in lane sustain if you must to make them not irrelevant as top laners, but tanks should counter assassins and offensive melee, period.

Only ADC's and mages should be able to deal with tanks.

SucctionJan 6, 20191 votes

Disagree here. If the splitpushing bruisers couldn't deal with tanks, they'd be a totally worthless class. Your other points are nice though.

Just stuff like Tryn/Fiora/whatever CANNOT teamfight, and if they can't win 1v1 either then they're just 300g minions.

Crescent DuskJan 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Disagree here. If the splitpushing bruisers couldn't deal with tanks, they'd be a totally worthless class. Your other points are nice though.

Just stuff like Tryn/Fiora/whatever CANNOT teamfight, and if they can't win 1v1 either then they're just 300g minions.

Fiora/Trynda have a much easier time of diving adc's/mages and blowing up assassins than tanks do. Remember not everyone is a Maokai, Ornn, or Sion.

The tanks in Poppy, Garen (he's a tank, as a 1v1 bruiser he is pathetically useless and he's got one of the weakest laning phases vs meta top laners), Shen and the like are much more easily handled.

Just as with assassins, I've always been in favor of buffs to laning and team fight sustain options rather than making a champion virtually an autowin in lane because the fact is if a Fiora is picked against an Ornn, Poppy, Maokai, or Garen, none of those are gaining any gold without losing over half their health and being shoved under turret and starved of xp for most of the game, period.

It's why I understand mages' complaints of Zed because it's impossible to enjoy a game where a champion pick pretty much ensures you have no options whatsoever other than hope your jungler camps you, and this game is filled with atrocious AFK farm junglers who just let the enemy jungler camp lanes while they ignore all objectives and just farm all just to end up irrelevant anyways because the opponent laners getting fed are still stronger than a farmed out jungler with useless teammates who are behind.

SucctionJan 8, 20191 votes

Going to disagree again.

Fiora actually loses lane to Poppy and struggle with Garen post 3. Obviously she outscales at 2 items, but that's her whole thing.

Mages against Zed win quite easily, actually. No jungle pressure is needed. Basic wave management + Seeker's rush virtually negates his existence, leaving him with the only option of roaming bot while you shove and take free plating.

Crescent DuskJan 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Going to disagree again.

Fiora actually loses lane to Poppy and struggle with Garen post 3. Obviously she outscales at 2 items, but that's her whole thing.

Mages against Zed win quite easily, actually. No jungle pressure is needed. Basic wave management + Seeker's rush virtually negates his existence, leaving him with the only option of roaming bot while you shove and take free plating.

Good luck getting Seeker's against a non-passive Zed, you sure as hell are not getting the gold for it by lv3 at which point he can zone you off the wave by then or get kill pressure by 6. Zed's mediocre levels are the first 2 and thanks to his passive he doesn't even need to worry about them.