Can we reduce pyke’s absolutely free sustain please?

The thigh guy·Nov 2, 2018·63 votes·15,633 views

You litteraly can’t poke him out of lane. Nami? Can be poked out Soraka? Can be poked out Even Janna and taric can

Let’s go into his support type. Engage Leona Blitzcrank Thresh Nautilus What do they ALL have in common? THEY CAN BE POKED OUT.

It’s annoying as hell when a Pyke just sits there blind firing hooks, know he can’t be punished for missing. And if he lands it, he either has a free kill, or loses the trade and runs back to regen 90% of his hp.

And no, this isn’t “compensation” for him not being able to build health. His compensation for not being able to gain max hp is his bonus hp turning into ad.

58 Comments

Hayaishi2Nov 2, 201839 votes

Pyke is the perfect support. Has no bad lane match ups except for maybe Alistar, literally makes every non tank support, immobile ADC free kills because his counter play is pretty much "hope Pyke misses"

Bob the ToastrNov 2, 20186 votes

I know right?? Every time I play Pyke and miss getting a kill, the only reason I feel like I didn't get it is because I messed up, not because the enemy outplayed me. He's like Zoe in that regard, where you just have to hope they make a mistake.

ProfirixNov 2, 20181 votes

I used to feel that way about Zoe until they hit her damage so hard that she is not rewarded for making a well-executed skillshot.

Z3SleeperNov 2, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tongue in Cheek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s9jGlJn1,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-11-02T15:41:19.158+0000)

I used to feel that way about Zoe until they hit her damage so hard that she is not rewarded [with removing a champion from the map for 30+ seconds] for making [ONE] well-executed skillshot.

As it should be.

ProfirixNov 2, 20181 votes

There is a difference between nerfing someone who is inherently broken and destroying someone who is inherently broken. I hate that champion with a flaming passion, but no one deserves to be so utterly destroyed that picking them in a game is an automatic loss.

Sexy Jack RabbitNov 3, 20182 votes

She never was though. Even at her 44% winrate you had Mains nabbing up to 60% winrates on her consistently.

BârdNov 2, 20181 votes

There are others, but you might need to get weird.

Alistar is good, as you mentioned. Caitlyn paired with any CC support is brutal because if she can get a trap off you're dead. Poppy niche, but it works here. He can't E away. Trundle is difficult, but Pyke isn't unstoppable during his E animation. A well timed pillar can knock him right out of it, and the subsequent slow will keep in in range. The ult helps considerably as well, cutting through his high resists. TahmKench kinda just stops him from killing the ADC. Volibear E shockwave can knock hiim out of his dash, Q can keep him within the camo radius. Thresh can flay him out of his dash, and you have enough CC to stop him from retreating easily with W. Lulu has a flat HP boost, which is different from a shield and stops him getting his execute. Also, cupcakes can't cast W.

There are more, and most of these are obviously skill matchups, but it's innacurate to say he's doesn't have counters.

Hell, that's just in botlane. Countering him with top/mid/jg picks is pretty easy.

Hayaishi2Nov 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

There are others, but you might need to get weird.

is good, as you mentioned. paired with any CC support is brutal because if she can get a trap off you're dead. niche, but it works here. He can't E away. is difficult, but Pyke isn't unstoppable during his E animation. A well timed pillar can knock him right out of it, and the subsequent slow will keep in in range. The ult helps considerably as well, cutting through his high resists. kinda just stops him from killing the ADC. E shockwave can knock hiim out of his dash, Q can keep him within the camo radius. can flay him out of his dash, and you have enough CC to stop him from retreating easily with W. has a flat HP boost, which is different from a shield and stops him getting his execute. Also, cupcakes can't cast W.

There are more, and most of these are obviously skill matchups, but it's innacurate to say he's doesn't have counters.

Hell, that's just in botlane. Countering him with top/mid/jg picks is pretty easy.

Problem doesn't come from the 2v2 match up IMO. If he can't 2v2 he'll just set up a gank because again most champions can't escape him.

YuGiHoNov 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Pyke is the perfect support. Has no bad lane match ups except for maybe Alistar, literally makes every non tank support, immobile ADC free kills because his counter play is pretty much "hope Pyke misses"

reminds me allot of release thresh

SwiftKitten88Nov 2, 201815 votes

not to mention u can summoner 14 him at 30 hp and he will regen through it and still live

One Quacky BoiNov 3, 20181 votes

That's not how it works. That's not how any of it works. For Pykes passive to regenerate health, he needs to be outside of enemy vision. Ignite reveals him. See the contradiction?

SwiftKitten88Nov 3, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=One Quacky Boi,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s9jGlJn1,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-11-03T13:12:49.613+0000)

That's not how it works. That's not how any of it works. For Pykes passive to regenerate health, he needs to be outside of enemy vision. Ignite reveals him. See the contradiction?

ignite doesnt give "true sight" which is needed to reveal "stealthed targets".. i LITERALLY BROUGHT summoner 14 to try to face that complete monstrosity because i assumed what you did.. which was " it would keep him revealed and stop the healing. it DOES NOT.

if u have EVER tried this you would KNOW it does not.

that is the biggest push behind the "give ignite true sight", to counter this bullshit.

One Quacky BoiNov 4, 20181 votes

Well, in that case, forget I said anything. That shit needs to be changed.

FilDaFunkNov 2, 20189 votes

As a mage, I've bursted a pyke down to 100 hp, he Es and Ws away. Coems back in a few seconds with full hp....................................

BârdNov 2, 20182 votes

Late game, sure.

Early game he's still going to be below half.

FilDaFunkNov 2, 20181 votes

I don't see the relevance of your point. Firstly, I'm not going to see him early game if I'm mid. Secondly, how is "below half" any better, I've just used my entire kit after catching him out, only for him to be ungrazed.

BârdNov 3, 20181 votes

Yes, you probably will. Pyke will be going for ganks on mid as well as participating in jungle skirmishes.
Mages and their burst are not limited to mid. Mages are played as supports all the time, some of them (Vlad, Heim) take over the ADC role on occasion, and there's even the occasional Taliyah jungle.
"Below Half" is in kill range. He's too low on health to try anything on you. To say he is "unscathed" when he's at 45% as a squishy champion is horseshit and you know it (and if you used "your entire kit", your ignite would have made it so he's only at 30%.
If you're weak enough that your full rotation can't kill somebody as squishy as Pyke, you should know that you're weak and only dedicate enough resources to damaging Pyke to force him off of you.

SłęeplessÇryNov 2, 20188 votes

You know, i don't even care about his damage, or him building tank, or being able to reset his R with kills. This here is what breaks pyke. I don't even feel like he needs that big of a change. I think the only thing he needs is to have his healing speed lowered. considerably. I don't even mind him regening 90% of his hp back. But when you poke him down to less than 5% of his HP he should be off the map longer then the 2-3 seconds to regen it all back.

He should have a longer down time to recover. not only would a slower healing over time make him easier to lane against, but it would also allow you to hunt him down with a control ward or 2 with his stealth to finish the job. and it wouldn't be a big enough nerf to make him useless.

Metal JannaNov 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You know, i don't even care about his damage, or him building tank, or being able to reset his R with kills. This here is what breaks pyke. I don't even feel like he needs that big of a change. I think the only thing he needs is to have his healing speed lowered. considerably. I don't even mind him regening 90% of his hp back. But when you poke him down to less than 5% of his HP he should be off the map longer then the 2-3 seconds to regen it all back.

He should have a longer down time to recover. not only would a slower healing over time make him easier to lane against, but it would also allow you to hunt him down with a control ward or 2 with his stealth to finish the job. and it wouldn't be a big enough nerf to make him useless.

This. I don't know why nobody notices this. He has to be hidden to get his health back... so the counterplay is to ensure that he can't hide close by and has to actually leave lane for a minute to regenerate, right? Wrong! You can ward the bushes, but he'll just use a different one, or step to the edge of the lane and cloak without a bush. Even if you do know what bush he went into, and throw a ward in there real quick, you'll often find that he's already regenerated his health in the 3 seconds it took you to path over to it while staying behind minions so as not to eat a hook. (Side note: his camoflauge radius is small enough that you can drop a ward in one end of the bush, and he'll still be hidden on the other end if he's used Ghostwater Dive. This means that to really catch him in the bush you have to drop your ward in the middle of the bush, which practically means facechecking it. And he is not just going to let you do that.)

Okay enough complaining: how can Riot change him to better match the intended play pattern? Idea 1: Make his healing less binary. Instead of "if hidden, heal", maybe it should be "if hidden, heal at a rate that depends on how close you are to the nearest enemy champion". Idea 2: Make it take a second longer to start healing, and taking any damage pauses the healing for 4 seconds. This way Pyke must hide somewhere that the enemies don't know where he is... you know, actually hiding, instead of just ducking into the nearest bush where you know he's there but can't do anything about it because walking up to ward is a huge risk.

Personally I think the second idea is a better solution, because it doesn't punish good Pykes who are trying to stalk someone while camouflaged. On the other hand maybe that's not a part of what Riot intended for Pyke. I don't know.

And yes, I realize both of those are nerfs, and will require compensation. I'm cool with that, because with a super telegraphed hook and a stun that can actually be dodged, I think he has the most counterplay of any hook support to date. But that doesn't mean he can't be made even better.

DarukongSrNov 2, 20187 votes

I would at least appreciate if pyke had real Mana costs like blitz early/mid game. At levels 1-5, he should run out of Mana after 3-4 spear throws unless he buys Mana items. Only fair, the dude is way too dangerous and safe at the same time, while providing amazing utility.

BârdNov 2, 20181 votes

His mana costs are significant enough. He doesn't tend to use his abilities in isolation when fighting; they combo together, and doing that chews through mana.

His trading combo of Q>E is 120 mana, which is about a quarter of his mana pool at early levels. It costs 195 if he has to use W to retreat, bumping it up to about a third of his mana.

At level 6, the cost of one full rotation is 295, which is half his mana pool.

CronofugeNov 2, 20187 votes

What's worse is if you catch him and try to all in and he slips out at 20%. Comes back 5 seconds later at 75% hp. His sustain is obnoxious. The rest of his kit I can handle but that sustain is infuriating.

BârdNov 2, 20181 votes

Late game, that might happen. Thing is, he probably won't survive getting caught in the late game because he has no bonus health, especially with the low resist build Riot's forcing on him next patch.

Early game, he'd only go from ~20% to ~50% because he won't have the bonus AD to heal for more than 25% of his max HP.

BârdNov 2, 20185 votes

Pyke's passive is strong early, sure, but it's nothing insane.

Early game, the healing conversion is low and the max heal is also low. In order to get the max heal (25% health), you would have to get chunked down to critical HP, to the point where even after healing you'd still be below half HP.

Yes, Pyke is resistant to poke. You don't beat him by poking him. You beat him by poking out his ADC or by locking him down in an all-in. No matter how resistant Pyke is to poke, none of that transfers to his carry. No matter how much he could regenerate, it's irrelevant if he never gets the chance. Ignite is the meta spell for supports right now, and that's incredible against Pyke because it cuts through his naturally high armor.

Hell, it's even fairly simple to stop him from constantly healing with his passive. Ward the far lane bush and the river bush while maintaining control of the close bush. Since there's no safe place to dip into bush to heal, he'd have to fall back all the way to his tower or press W (costs 70 mana, which is a lot for somebody who relies on Q spam as Pyke does).

Later in the game it really is a crazy heal, but it's even somewhat justified there because he can only use that passive if he survives the engagement, and late game damage is high enough that it's somewhat unlikely for somebody with no bonus HP to survive that.

AlzonNov 2, 20184 votes

Give him the Tahm Kench treatment.

ProfirixNov 2, 20183 votes

Tahm Kench is so bad now :/

He is the perfect example of a champion that is severely underpowered but has one invaluable quality in high level play that makes him stand against desirable play.

stone the blacksNov 2, 20184 votes

treat Pyke passive like TahmKench e fuck it in the early game so its possible to poke him

HethaleanNov 2, 20183 votes

but his passive tops out so easy early. i can't imagine he sustains way more than a sona/soraka. He really can be punished for missing.

PhantomSpirit101Nov 2, 201820 votes

Unless you max heal on Sona and have like unlimited mana, you really won't be sustaining that much. That heal is minimal. Soraka loses health for healing.

HethaleanNov 2, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Unless you max heal on Sona and have like unlimited mana, you really won't be sustaining that much. That heal is minimal. Soraka loses health for healing.

Yes, but a smart Sona will shield damage coming in making her heal more effecitve, and Soraka gets a lot of healing from Q.

Bob the ToastrNov 2, 20181 votes

Soraka does get a decent amount of healing from her Q, but she also has to spend health to heal her ally. Also, the landing speed of her Q at max range makes it fairly easy to dodge unless you're CC'ed.

HethaleanNov 2, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s9jGlJn1,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-02T16:20:20.951+0000)

Soraka does get a decent amount of healing from her Q, but she also has to spend health to heal her ally. Also, the landing speed of her Q at max range makes it fairly easy to dodge unless you're CC'ed.

ok, and from how the OP is talking about pyke. he's would be saying Soraka is over powered because he's in effect letting soraka hit every Q on cooldown and wondering why she never runs out of mana or hp. Because it's absolutely free sustain.

TobykachuNov 2, 20186 votes

Not to mention sustain is kinada Soraka's whole thing.

Spooky SkeletonNov 2, 20183 votes

Early game he absolutely can be poked out. At level 1 he stores 30% of the damage he takes as grey health (that's less than one auto). It's also important to keep vision in your brushes (this counts for any hook champ) Vision literally stops him regaining his lost hp.

Póppy ChuloNov 2, 20182 votes

BârdNov 2, 20183 votes

Which costs 75 mana.

One full rotation costs half his mana pool at level 6 (295/612.5), so forcing him to burn 75 here and there will quickly render him unable to all in you (or at the very least, unable to do so safely).

SunbreakerNov 2, 20183 votes

Agree that a support with such a strong engage shouldn't be able to have that much sustain, but do you seriously think sustain supports can be poked out lol (especially nami gl with that). It's literally number 1 rule of bot lane: sustain lane beats poke lane which beats engage lane...

GripaAviaraNov 2, 20183 votes

Pyke needs that passive to be a support.

They need to nerf his ultimate damage though. It's insane for a support

JeaneGreeneNov 2, 20182 votes

Mmmmm, doesn't soraka just heal back all of the damage?

Moons of JupiterNov 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Mmmmm, doesn't soraka just heal back all of the damage?

no lmao why would you think that

JeaneGreeneNov 3, 20181 votes

Like with her Q’s? Not with her W lol.

boricCentaur1Nov 2, 20182 votes

What do all those champions you listed have in common too there fucking tanks not assassins look at Rakan he is also a engage support he also has sustain and a escape lets look at pyke he has sustain and a weak escape it almost like you can't compare tanks to assassins.

ﬂooNov 2, 201814 votes

His sustain is super small early, scales with level and ap AND requires him to spend mana on a skillshot, you can't compare that to free 50% regen of any incoming damage. Rakans W keeps him in place for .5s as well.Pyke's E on the other hand also stuns everybody who tries to follow.

his W makes him uncatchable.

boricCentaur1Nov 2, 20181 votes

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ﬂooNov 2, 20183 votes

You literally brought the comparing between Rakan and Pyke up wtf. If you call Pyke's disengage WEAK, then you have some serious mental issues. You literally cannot follow him if he uses his E bc of the delayed stun. Additionally his W gives him ms steroid, invisibility AND activate his passive. That is way too fucking safe. And if a Pyke uses his W offensively in lane then he's bad, honestly. The difference between Pyke and Rakan is only that one deals damage and one is an enchanter. Otherwise they have (somewhat) similar kits. They are comparable. 2 more things, Rakan is NOT a tank, and please, please use some punctuation. It's horrible to read.

boricCentaur1Nov 2, 20181 votes

Again I brought it up to show that comparing pyke to tanks is really dumb and rakan is a better champion to compare to nothing I said in the first one was about rakan being better or pyke being better it was just to show how the how person making the post was dumb for comparing tanks to a assassin. And I will try to use punctuation better this time sorry I suck at punctuation You pick pyke for engage he does have ok disengage but its not great and yeah in lane its good since you can just walk away from them and heal but in a team fights its bad since he will just get cced and dies if he fucks up, now if rakan fucks up he can just e back to his team or use ult if he still has it. Now you say using his w offensively in lane is bad but the combo is hook into stun you can not use just the hook its not that great of a hook vs other ones or are you talking about just using the w since yeah it sucks.

ﬂooNov 3, 20182 votes

Comparing tanks to assassins isn't really possible, that's true. Don't worry, it's just harder to read and understand right away ^^ Honestly, I feel like Pyke has the best disengage after Talon and Kayn. With his E and W on low cd in late game you cannot catch him. In lane, what I was talking about, his W combines him making a safe getaway with his obnoxious regeneration, so you can't punish him enough. For his combo: 1st his hook is probably the best ingame, because he can charge it. Every other hook is instantaneous and therefore feels easier to dodge (debatable) 2nd if he misses his hook, he doesn't have to E in and therefore has another ability to get away and not get punished for misplay. His W in general is simply roam or runaway.

DarukongSrNov 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

What do all those champions you listed have in common too there fucking tanks not assassins look at he is also a engage support he also has sustain and a escape lets look at pyke he has sustain and a weak escape it almost like you can't compare tanks to assassins.

Wrong, pykes escape are twice as good as rakans in my opinion.

OleandervineNov 2, 20183 votes

{quoted}

What do all those champions you listed have in common too there fucking tanks not assassins look at he is also a engage support he also has sustain and a escape lets look at pyke he has sustain and a weak escape it almost like you can't compare tanks to assassins.

Let us compare Rakan's and Pyke's passives.

Rakan's shield - 30-254 point shield based on level, plus 90% of his AP. Pyke's healing - Stores 30%-81% of damage he takes from champs, and heals up to 25%-50% of his MAX HP based on his AD and level.

The two aren't even comparable. Pyke can literally heal back like half of his health bar for no apparent reason. Rakan has a shield that can block, what, 1-2 spell hits or half a crit hit, and then he will be poked out of the lane and forced to leave.