Soooo can we un gut vision yet?

The thigh guy·Mar 5, 2019·83 votes·16,614 views

I kinda miss actually be able to put down a decent amount of wards as a jungler. I also miss being able to ward as a laner.

But what does vision solve? I can hear people asking.

This perma gank meta is solved almost entirely by vision.
Junglers have to path more creatively if they want to gank.
Laners can take responsibility if they get ganked. :D
Another level of skill ceiling gets added to the game.
No more insta gib from the bushes.
No more bush juggling do avoid point and clicks and minion Agro (risk to early aggression)

What are the negatives?

Burst will be less likey to work from bushes? (If that’s even a negative)
Duskblade becomes better. (Mo wards mo money)
Laners have to take some responsibility for vision?

Seriously though. Not asking for buyable green wards again. Maybe just the return of an actual sightstone, or even trackers knife would be acceptable.

67 Comments

RavenhaleMar 5, 201925 votes

I thought the reason vision was reduced was because of how well it is utilized in Pro Play. Jungle, for instance, was almost always Tracker's Knife.

The thigh guyMar 5, 20194 votes

{quoted}

I thought the reason vision was reduced was because of how well it is utilized in Pro Play. Jungle, for instance, was almost always Tracker's Knife.

I mean. Yeah. Vision is extremely important in pro play. But I don’t see how removing it helped. It’s still used relatively consistently if not more efficiently than ever before.

It allowed comebacks to be a thing by getting vision advantages.

When they gutted it, it just removed a layer to the game.

TheSingularityMar 6, 20197 votes

It didn't help but was the reason it was nerfed

Riot figures that if they remove vision it will force a more exciting meta. But it does the opposite as paranoia sets in since there isn't enough vision and the pros play hyper hyper safe

xDelightifyxMar 6, 20191 votes

additional they nerfed support items once again, so even i as support do not have any wards early into the game. Except if i exchange all my money for pinkwards. Vision started to go downhill, when they stopped the possibilty to buy wards (additional to the support item, i like them, so dont get this wrong :D). Now Top for example has 1 ward every 90 s....

ZackTheWaffleManMar 5, 201915 votes

#LC$

will become more boring, i guess? I think that's their easoning, at least.

GlaricionMar 5, 20199 votes

{quoted}

#LC$

will become more boring, i guess? I think that's their easoning, at least.

Dragon needs to be some mandatory buff abomination because of esports.
Have to have the game be XXXX for ages because a patch might disturb pro play.
Burst meta because it made for 'the most entertaining LCS ever!'
Balance for DA PLAYZ for viewership
'Interactivity' buzzword for more fighting = more exciting to watch, even if it hurts play.
Get flamed for calling out imbalances if a pro hasn't discussed it first.
Amateur versus professional game is so different, leads to frustrating conversations "well, they might be useless in casual play, but they have to remain that way or else they'll be OP for ~100 people".

Esports is the biggest mistake in League history.

3TWarriorMar 6, 20194 votes

imagine if professional league was on the same level as challenger...no premade teams, no questionable ethics teams, no diversity quotas, it would actually be "close" to normal play because the team can't practice a combination attack to perfection, and to make matters more fun, the players would not be banning based on information gathering and would instead be making practical ban choices so that riot could see what is and is not wrong with the game

sounds like fun!

xDelightifyxMar 6, 20192 votes

How can u be seriously interested in the lcs, the thing that is mainly respnsible for all bad changes riot made in the last two season?

BoatwhistleMar 5, 201914 votes

They gutted vision as an effort to shorten the game because for some reason... people who wanted to play short games decided league was a good choice despite being a long game. Figure that one out cause I cant. Unfortunately these people buy skins too so what is league to do but cater.

Sassmast3rMar 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

They gutted vision as an effort to shorten the game because for some reason... people who wanted to play short games decided league was a good choice despite being a long game. Figure that one out cause I cant. Unfortunately these people buy skins too so what is league to do but cater.

This is the most succinct, accurate explanation of how this game transitioned from a fun game in S5 to a competitive tournament in the present (S9).

TheSingularityMar 7, 20192 votes

Tbh season 5 took game length to moronic levels. Baron was so weak, waveclear was so strong. Games lasted 35-50 minutes generally. Multiple aces, multiple barons ect. It was the extreme opposite of what we have/had. What we need is that sweet balance, which imo was post tank meta season 5 or season 4

BoatwhistleMar 8, 20191 votes

Many parts of the game cant be enjoyed until 25+ minutes, late game champions and certain strategies specifically. For awhile there it seemed you could only enjoy them for 5-10 minutes at most which is a load of shit.

TheSingularityMar 8, 20191 votes

I'm not against lengthening average game time to around 35-40min However it needs to be because teams are even or due to game pacing. Not because it's nigh impossible to close out a game even if you ace their team multiple times (common occurence s5). But because dmg is lowered to slow down turret tanking/team killing

The thigh guyMar 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'm not against lengthening average game time to around 35-40min However it needs to be because teams are even or due to game pacing. Not because it's nigh impossible to close out a game even if you ace their team multiple times (common occurence s5). But because dmg is lowered to slow down turret tanking/team killing

It’s better than now where games are decided at level 3 because everything does nuclear damage.

PhantomGGMar 5, 201913 votes

We been nerfing vision literally every season since season 6 and yet we wonder why jungle is now the best role in the game in both competitive and solo que

The thigh guyMar 5, 20197 votes

{quoted}

We been nerfing vision literally every season since season 6 and yet we wonder why jungle is now the best role in the game in both competitive and solo que

And then they gutted xp. Now games are decided almost entirely by mid and jungle not just jungle.

Crescent DuskMar 6, 20193 votes

{quoted}

We been nerfing vision literally every season since season 6 and yet we wonder why jungle is now the best role in the game in both competitive and solo que

Except it isn't. More than half the top NA ladder are ADC's, and games are decided by winning bot lanes, which can win lanes just fine without ganks and it's far easier to gank top lanes than bot lanes since you're only dealing with one potential person who can peel/dash.

SukishooMar 5, 20198 votes

Riot: We heard you wanted to un-gut vision, now we bring you the latest update. Support items no longer place wards when upgraded and control wards have been removed from the store! Good luck on the rift!

OtterlyLostMar 5, 20196 votes

I wish they'd at least return Sightstone. Its true that if you were ahead, you didn't need to get sighstone super early. But if you were being camped or were behind, having wards readily available as early as possible was a huge benefit. Likely hood was you were pushed in constantly so have the ability to get early vision so that you could protect your flanks by warding the tri bush and such behind your tower could mean you saved yourself from a tower dive. It definitely slowed snowballing in laning phase and I was never a fan of the changes they made to support item quests. :/ I liked the unique quests that supports had and that there was a separate item for sightstone.

The thigh guyMar 5, 20195 votes

{quoted}

I wish they'd at least return Sightstone. Its true that if you were ahead, you didn't need to get sighstone super early. But if you were being camped or were behind, having wards readily available as early as possible was a huge benefit. Likely hood was you were pushed in constantly so have the ability to get early vision so that you could protect your flanks by warding the tri bush and such behind your tower could mean you saved yourself from a tower dive. It definitely slowed snowballing in laning phase and I was never a fan of the changes they made to support item quests. :/ I liked the unique quests that supports had and that there was a separate item for sightstone.

Exactly. There was no issue with sightstone. Riot just ripped it out for no real reason. Vision wars were fun and interesting. And it allowed for higher macro skill players to show off a bit more.

InfernapeMar 5, 20193 votes

The people that played "supports" complained about needing to build sightstone.

As a ranked support main I'd love sightstone to return.

Hell I'd like for supports that complete the quests to unlock a control ward slot. It's infuriating being a support with 5 items and having to choose between a sixth or control wards.

The thigh guyMar 5, 20196 votes

{quoted}

The people that played "supports" complained about needing to build sightstone.

As a ranked support main I'd love sightstone to return.

Hell I'd like for supports that complete the quests to unlock a control ward slot. It's infuriating being a support with 5 items and having to choose between a sixth or control wards.

Only low elo complained about building it. I was happy af when I got my sightstone. I was like “fuck yeah, this jungler ain’t doin shit to me now”

InfernapeMar 5, 20192 votes

Basically me. I lit up the bottom quadrant of the Rift like it was the 4th of freaking July.

Sire HippingtonMar 5, 20195 votes

returning sightstone and buffing trinkets back to S5 state would go a long way...

The thigh guyMar 5, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BXPR4mTQ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-03-05T20:37:51.650+0000)

returning sightstone and buffing trinkets back to S5 state would go a long way...

Even just trinkets would be amazing. Or an upgrade that made your trinket a sightstone. I’d spend upwards of 2k gold on just that.

AyzevMar 5, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BXPR4mTQ,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-03-05T19:47:30.627+0000)

This perma gank meta is solved almost entirely by vision.

Except if junglers can't gank, they can only clear their camps and then jack off or something while waiting for them to respawn. The literal inability to farm definitely needs to be addressed either before, or at the same time as vision. Otherwise, I wouldn't be surprised to see duo tops

The thigh guyMar 5, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Except if junglers can't gank, they can only clear their camps and then jack off or something while waiting for them to respawn. The literal inability to farm definitely needs to be addressed either before, or at the same time as vision. Otherwise, I wouldn't be surprised to see duo tops

No. They just have to use more unique gank paths, or use a sweeper.

And even if they did hard farm jungle. It’s better than the current state where they may as well plop their asses in a lane and farm with them.

LTK KoRoMar 6, 20191 votes

"unique gank paths"

because these exist if you dont play stuff like reksai or zac right? How early game junglers like Xin, Vi or J4 are supposed to find these creative routes if they can't cross terrain or they have too big cds to cross terrain like that? Also outside of mid there are close to no unique gank paths. If you're going for bot/top you can only go for a tribush/river/lane gank and nothing else, and with current amount of vision botlane can deny all three of these paths. With more vision botlane would be 100% ungankable while toplane/midlane would be still touchable

The thigh guyMar 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BXPR4mTQ,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2019-03-06T21:00:01.723+0000)

"unique gank paths"

because these exist if you dont play stuff like reksai or zac right? How early game junglers like Xin, Vi or J4 are supposed to find these creative routes if they can't cross terrain or they have too big cds to cross terrain like that? Also outside of mid there are close to no unique gank paths. If you're going for bot/top you can only go for a tribush/river/lane gank and nothing else, and with current amount of vision botlane can deny all three of these paths. With more vision botlane would be 100% ungankable while toplane/midlane would be still touchable

Blast cone. Lane ganks. I’ve ran behind enemy turret before for ganks as sequent and kayn. Creativity is key.

LTK KoRoMar 6, 20191 votes

blast cone on bot/top throws you into a warded bush. Enemies will get like 2-3 secs less of reaction time but if they're not hard overextended they still have time to hide, and i included lane ganks in my first post. They're really unreliable on botlane, on top they're usually working. Also well, setting up dives is kind of eh, whatever, i'll give you a point here

i'd say current amount of vision is fine since when you work as a team you can have a lot of information, but said amount of vision isn't overbearing for any side.

The thigh guyMar 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BXPR4mTQ,comment-id=00080000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-06T21:18:08.506+0000)

blast cone on bot/top throws you into a warded bush. Enemies will get like 2-3 secs less of reaction time but if they're not hard overextended they still have time to hide, and i included lane ganks in my first post. They're really unreliable on botlane, on top they're usually working. Also well, setting up dives is kind of eh, whatever, i'll give you a point here

i'd say current amount of vision is fine since when you work as a team you can have a lot of information, but said amount of vision isn't overbearing for any side.

Without mobility blast cones don’t give enough reatraction time. And as for it putting you into a warded area. That’s only against bad players tbh. Wards should almost always be further in the river. If not on the junglers camps.

As for dives I wasn’t even talking about flat out diving them. I mean using the path behind the turrets (seeing as they don’t do shit for damage lately).

Just the LipMar 6, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BXPR4mTQ,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-03-05T19:47:30.627+0000)

This perma gank meta is solved almost entirely by vision.

Even if u ping where the jungle is, and/or have vision on them, the lane is still going to int.

Bliss OceanMar 5, 20193 votes

I agree with this there actually needs to be more vision.

SwittzMar 6, 20192 votes

Giving vision means whoever is ahead will be able to prevent ganks making it impossible to trap him. It'll make the snowball meta even worse, once a team has the lead and can ward all your jungle the game is pretty much over.

The thigh guyMar 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Giving vision means whoever is ahead will be able to prevent ganks making it impossible to trap him. It'll make the snowball meta even worse, once a team has the lead and can ward all your jungle the game is pretty much over.

Except I could argue the exact opposite. Because if you have constant vision on who is fed you can ensure to never let them get the drop on you.

LTK KoRoMar 6, 20191 votes

if you could have constant vision on every enemy team member then vision would be really overbuffed. There's no skill in playing in full vision, one of league's basics is calculated risk

The thigh guyMar 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BXPR4mTQ,comment-id=001100000000,timestamp=2019-03-06T21:03:14.102+0000)

if you could have constant vision on every enemy team member then vision would be really overbuffed. There's no skill in playing in full vision, one of league's basics is calculated risk

And you see. That’s when sweepers come into play! And duskblade! And pink wards! Wow. It’s almost like vision already has its counter in the game! :D

LTK KoRoMar 6, 20191 votes

and then you can replace said vision while sweeping stuff is on cd, wooo vision wars from seasons 1-2 are back. I can't wait to cheer for a ward kill

thornmailedMar 7, 20192 votes

So why did they buff Oracle Lens? Oracle used to require lvl 9 or high to purchase, but now lvl 1 can purchase, so I think this should balance out wards already. Now there are too few wards for too powerful Oracle Lens.

hrooza dota Mar 6, 20192 votes

just a small 2 cent of mine.

players say vision add skill but i find having easy way to get vision as the opposite of skill. being able to spam great vision just make so easy to cover everything and it take 0 skills to do so.

The thigh guyMar 6, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=hrooza dota ,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BXPR4mTQ,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2019-03-06T09:44:05.681+0000)

just a small 2 cent of mine.

players say vision add skill but i find having easy way to get vision as the opposite of skill. being able to spam great vision just make so easy to cover everything and it take 0 skills to do so.

You do know that you still only had 3 wards and 1 pink ward at a time right?

You couldn’t “spam vision” you still had to think about where to put it.

PartholonianMar 6, 20192 votes

I agree, when you have limited vision you have to choose where to put it (because the answer literally can't be "everywhere"), which is a skill. Anticipating where the action is going to be a few minutes from now.

And then you have to play around where you can see and where you can't, which is another skill.

Limited vision is a more skilled game than "pay some gold to light up everything" -- or, the way it actually worked, "demand your support pay all his gold to light up everything".

Maybe maps are currently a bit too dark and they should adjust trinket cooldowns, but gold for vision was always a bad system and I'm glad they've now mostly gotten rid of it. Supports earn bonus vision by doing support things, and everyone else has to make intelligent use of their trinkets and whatever scryer's blooms are available.

Now if only they could find a way to get rid of the gold and inventory tax for control wards... People obviously shouldn't be allowed to place infinite control wards, but "how much gold can you spare and is your inventory full" seems like a bad way to decide how many control wards you get to place. Like the old regular wards, the fact that they are items at all is a historical artifact that goes back to WC3 custom maps, but that's no reason to keep it if it's producing bad results for a very different game 15 years later.

If "Place Control Ward" was just an extra ability (like summoners and recall) with charges that you get one every X seconds (or, equivalently, a permanent trinket in addition to your swappable trinket), I think it would be an improvement over the current inventory-based system.

thornmailedMar 7, 20192 votes

I disagree. When you debate about vision war, you also have to take Oracle Lens into account. Oracle Lens now can be purchased at any level, instead of champions reaching level 9 and above like season 7 and before. On the one hand, they nerfed vision capability, on the other hand, they buffed anti-vision capability.

In other words, there is too few vision, compares to those too strong Oracle Lens.

Yordle XayahMar 7, 20192 votes

LC$ unfortunately...

You know what I miss? REAL Pink wards. The ones that became invisible and had 3 hit points. Real vision wars were fought with those, not this simplified bullshit we have nowadays.

IllabetheMar 6, 20191 votes

I gotta say this: I used to be on the bandwagon of "Please un-nerf vision"

But...... then I found one guy's streams who actually show a very vivid representation of why high elo doesn't need it.

Watch some https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbPUNMRdfJo

I noticed that in a lot of his elo relevant games, the ENTIRE jungle on both sides are unwarded. UNWARDED. Team comps are designed to absolutely destroy wards. So, they literally path in the ways to prevent deaths.

Not only that, he's an Udyr main. That means...... he's playing one of the junglers most punished by the low ward meta. If Udyr face checks an occupied bush, he's one of the most likely to die to it.

So now...... I'm on the fence. If they can learn to path smart, and track opponent movement, why can't lower elos?

The thigh guyMar 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I gotta say this: I used to be on the bandwagon of "Please un-nerf vision"

But...... then I found one guy's streams who actually show a very vivid representation of why high elo doesn't need it.

Watch some https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbPUNMRdfJo

I noticed that in a lot of his elo relevant games, the ENTIRE jungle on both sides are unwarded. UNWARDED. Team comps are designed to absolutely destroy wards. So, they literally path in the ways to prevent deaths.

Not only that, he's an Udyr main. That means...... he's playing one of the junglers most punished by the low ward meta. If Udyr face checks an occupied bush, he's one of the most likely to die to it.

So now...... I'm on the fence. If they can learn to path smart, and track opponent movement, why can't lower elos?

Tracking junglers is much easier in higher elo because they tend to follow the exact same paths based on who their champion is, due to efficiency being so much more important now. Non professional level play is a very different beast. I can track a good graves player all day, I’ll know his timing on all his camps, I’ll know when to invade him, I’ll know where he’s going to gank before even he does.

But. Throw me into some low level yi player, I’m not going to be able to track him even close to as well as the other guy.

IllabetheMar 6, 20192 votes

The very video I linked proves this to be pretty wrong. Almost right away, the entire other team gets into a fight. And on his first invade, his opponent's team knew he'd be there. Because of that, Willy had to change/randomize his path for the rest of the game.

It's easy to predict the first path. It's hard to predict the second/third fourth/etc.

What I found more interesting is the fact HE DIDN'T DIE much. Face checking people who know where you are usually ends in death.

NevrankroatonMar 6, 20191 votes

I am not in the main opinion on this one as I am glad vision isn't as easy to set-up as before. Too many time could we have the team being ahead having over control of the jungle and also deleting the ennemy vision, using their gold advantage to actually suffocate the ennemy behind and not allowing any comeback as long as you played as clean as possible.

It is why the removal of tracker knife and nerfing vision ward to 2 for every people made fighting for vision so important, it allowed to remove the overcontrol/safety that lanes/jungler with priority would get. It would allow actual creative path because early ganker will use particular ganking route or pathing to trump the ennemy team/jungler on what he is doing.

I agree that the real problem come from lack of defensive capacity for a laner who don't have priority in lane (notably top or bottom).

The thigh guyMar 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I am not in the main opinion on this one as I am glad vision isn't as easy to set-up as before. Too many time could we have the team being ahead having over control of the jungle and also deleting the ennemy vision, using their gold advantage to actually suffocate the ennemy behind and not allowing any comeback as long as you played as clean as possible.

It is why the removal of tracker knife and nerfing vision ward to 2 for every people made fighting for vision so important, it allowed to remove the overcontrol/safety that lanes/jungler with priority would get. It would allow actual creative path because early ganker will use particular ganking route or pathing to trump the ennemy team/jungler on what he is doing.

I agree that the real problem come from lack of defensive capacity for a laner who don't have priority in lane (notably top or bottom).

But. Like I said before. I can easily argue the opposite. More access to vision and deny a snowball by allowing the losing team to track the enemy team and never be caught by surprise, or in unfavorable fights.