CertainlyT and his defense of Zoe E vs Morgana Shield

Oleandervine··11 votes·2,820 views

Surrender@20 collected this response from CertainlyT regarding Black Shield and Zoe's bubble:

*"CertainlyT comment on the interaction between Zoe's E and Morgana's E: Hey Mudinthewater. I chose this model after some thought, though it was a close call. Ultimately what is in game right now is as follows: There is one moment to Black Shield Zoe's Sleep, and that is when the target would be hit by the missile/trap and become Drowsy.

  1. This model offers the most play for both parties: Morgana has the ability to Black Shield the Drowsy, but she has to use her Black Shield in response to the spell cast itself, which might be a waste if she or her ally dodge.
  2. The alternative of Black Shielding Drowsy, having your Black Shield break and watching your ally fall asleep seemed problematic for other reasons -- the Morgana player would be punished for doing what seems optimal (reacting quickly and exercising good judgment about their ally's dodging capabilities).
  3. This is most consistent with how Black Shield works elsewhere. Here is where we came to different conclusions. You have chosen a number of delayed CCs that have conditionals on them (of course Black Shielding with 3 stack Braum P mark on you blocks the follow on stun, we haven't initiated the stun sequence yet). There aren't a huge amount of true multistage CCs in League. I used Nasus W (a progressive slow, which Morg E does not stop from progressing) and Malphite/Vi R (Knock Ups with follow on Stuns after the target lands which is not prevented by Black Shield).
  4. This is most consistent with how Black Shield has been re-shaped on over time -- the spell was originally developed as a Cleanse + CC immunity but we preferred the anticipatory play model over the purely reactive one. I am always open to revisiting these things, especially on very close calls like this. It would be better to focus the discussion on what generates better gameplay, since there is no "right answer" in terms of how the game functions elsewhere."*

I'm not sure I see how Vi/Malphite and Nasus have even remotely comparable CC to what Zoe does, and I can't see why Morgana needing to Shield the entire spell is most beneficial to her. None of them make you take massive damage, and none of them change from soft CC to hard CC. The fact that he's justifying Sleepy Bubble in this way kind of irritates me. His team clearly foresaw issues with this, and instead, they chose to give Sleepy Bubble a pass on Black Shield if you didn't catch the entire spell. This is why CertainlyT infuriates people. He makes incredibly unfair mechanics, and can't see how they would break the game.

25 Comments

Anonagon14 votes

His explanation makes perfect sense and it actually makes me appreciate the way it is implemented in the game. I don't know why you're harassing the guy, saying he intentionally makes things that infuriate people, when in his own explanation he admits it was a close call and that he's perfectly willing to revisit the decision.

The interaction between the spells is perfectly clear: Morgana's E blocks incoming CCs, it doesn't stop CCs in progress. If that's not intuitive, I don't know what is.

TehNACHO6 votes

I think the Vi/Malphite and Nasus examples are perfectly applicable. If we treat all these individual instances as one long CC, especially in the Nasus example, it would make no sense the way Morgana's Black Shield is currently used to cleanse the CC. Black Shield right now is designed on preventative measures, not responsive measures.

The real question now is should Drowsy+Sleep be treated as one long CC like Vi or Malphite or Alistar's Knock Up+Stun, or should it be treated as two separate instances of CC such as Fizz? Imo, since Drowsy does nothing on its own and is just a wind up into sleep, I would treat Drowsy+Sleep as one long CC, thus following the Vi/Malphite/Nasus example in that Morgana's Spell Shield doesn't cleanse, therefore if you're already drowsy, it's already too late.

Vekkna3 votes

The distinction between his examples and Zoe is that Zoe's bubble does not apply cc immediately. All the others apply a cc immediately, and you can't shield cc that has already been applied.

Really the more accurate comparison is with Vi's ult during the charge. You can shield the knockup after she has already locked on because no cc has been applied, even though there's a delay between the lockon and the knockup.

Naut ult, Mao W, Poppy E, along with every other cc delayed by travel time, also blocked by black shield after cast.

Or if Morg shields an allie whose soul was grabbed by Illaoi, the shield blocks the slow when the soul was killed. All the same ability.

Eve's W? Blocked on proc, not on application. Still the same ability.

Your comment about Drowsy + Sleep all being the same thing makes no sense when compared to other abilities. Like if Zed ults, you have to shield or Zhonya's before the mark pops, not when it's applied. And that actually is one debuff, not two distinct debuffs.

TehNACHO2 votes

The distinction between his examples and Zoe is that Zoe's bubble does not apply cc immediately.

If you consider Drowziness as an entirely distinct CC from Sleep, yes.

Listen, I've already addressed that if Drowziness exists as an entirely separate effect from Sleep, as it is with Fizz's Shark, you'd be correct. The issue here is that I consider Drowziness as part of Sleep, Anonagon above me accepts the analogy, and most importantly CertainlyT and the Riot staff currently accept this line of thinking. As I have stated, and as CertainlyT has stated, we can accept that there are arguments in both ways, we just choose to take this route because we treat Drowziness and Sleep as a single effect, vs Vi's Dash and then Knock Up, or Naut's "Projectile" and then Knock Up.

I also think you're getting stuff mixed up here a bit. If you're comparing Vi's Ult to Zoe's E, saying that their effects should apply if you Black Shield after cast and before the ability hits, Black Shield should block them. Well, this does in fact happen both ways. If Vi activates her ability but you Black Shield before the knock up, no knock up. If Zoe fires her projectile and you Black Shield before the projectile hits, no Drowziness, no Sleep. So far, the game mechanics are consistent. But then you have to deal with how Vi's Knock Up and Stun are treated as a single instance of CC, instead of one Knock Up and then another Stun. This part has already been explained through CertainlyT's explanation; Vi's Stun does not get disjointed if you Black Shield while the target is knocked up. If we want to remain consistent with Vi, shouldn't that mean Zoe's Sleep shouldn't get disjointed if you Black Shield while the target is Drowzy?

Your Zed analogy isn't the best because you can disjoint his Ult with untargetability as it applies. Master Yi's Alpha Strike does this.

Vekkna2 votes

That's a whole lot of rationalizing for a very simple issue. Is your champion currently under the effect of a cc? It's a yes or no question.

The only other question is whether a champ can be cc'd while having full control of their actions. The answer is no.

Drowzy is not a cc. It is an "about to be cc'd" debuff. "About to be" is future tense, not present tense.

Black shield should block it.

TehNACHO2 votes

Bruh, I can say the same to your first response, don't pull that card.

Your interpretation is simply not in line with how, evidently, a lot more people think. Stop trying to dumb down the discussion when by all rights, you are wrong.

Baka Red1 votes

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

  • Arthur Schopenhauer

“The simple step of a courageous individual is not to take part in the lie. "One word of truth outweighs the world.”

  • Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

"If the 'lot more people' are wrong, is it right to leave them be so?"

  • Me. ;)

Edit; It seems that I misread Vekkna's conclusion. I thought I agreed, but his reasoning was weirdly totally opposite of what I thought it was. Thus I find myself suddenly agreeing with you. Have an upvote instead of downvote as compensation for any mental discomfort my above comments caused you. :)

Baka Red1 votes

Agreed. Unfortunately there are plenty of people who refuse to see reason because they hate the man who created the champion.

I repeat the main point: Drowsy part of E isn't applying any kind of CC on the target yet. However, the spell has already hit and like Vi Ult/Malphite Ult that have already hit, Morgana casting Black Shield at that point is too late. The target is already in the air/about to fall asleep. These are clearly the same situation. The spell has already hit and the Morgana is too late.

Vekkna2 votes

Drowsy is like the Vi ult lockon or having your soul grabbed. An ability was used, it landed, and you are about to be cc'd.

Black shield blocks Illaoi's initial E grab AND the slow applied after the soul is killed.

Zed ult can be dodged on application OR on proc.

Cleanse removes Lust Dust before or after any cc is applied.

The bubble is the inconsistent ability here, and it is splitting hairs to say otherwise.

Baka Red1 votes

It is interesting to see that while we seem to think so much alike, the final conclusion for us is so different. I actually missed your conclusion "Black shield should block it." We are very much in disagreement there. The CC has already hit the target and thus Black Shield has nothing to do there except protect the target from further damage and CC.

Initial hit of Zoe's E does only damage and starts the delayed CC effect (the CC got in here). If Morgana or anyone else wanted to have it spell shielded, she should have shielded him before this happened. This is pretty much the way most things work in League:

Example scenarios below: Lux's/Zyra's/Ryze's root is about to hit the target or Xerath's/Anivia's stun is about to hit the target. If Morgana does not shield the target before the spell hits, the target gets CCed and all Morgana can do is to shield the target from further harm. Zoe's E is the same case. If the spell hits before Morgana can shield the target, the target will get CCed. It just happen after the delay called "Drowsy" which by itself does nothing. Because Drowsy condition does nothing, Zoe's E has no CC before the Drowsy timer runs out. Therefore Zoe's E is weaker form of regular Stun. If it could be canceled out by having a spell shield cast after the spell already hit, it would be even weaker.

Why do people complain about the weak stun of Zoe's E and not Xerath and Anivia stuns for example? At least I don't see people telling that Xerath and Anivia need their stuns removed by Morgana's spell shield if she casts it after the target has already been stunned. Are you telling they should be? With your line of reasoning it seems to me that you are saying so. I simply cannot understand why people complain about Zoe's E when the have stronger forms of CC out there.

Illaoi - I am not sure how that works. She is just scary looking big auntie and I don't want to get anythere near her.

Zed ult: Isn't that a point&click ability to target? If so, it isn't similar to Zoe's E at all.

Evelynn's charm "Allure": Point&Click, so it isn't same case at all.

Vi/Malphite ults are skill shot, that works like many of the above skill shots; it must be spell shielded before the target is hit or the target will feel the consequences by getting Knocked Up. Morgana applying shield after the hit won't allow the target land safely. Those work like the example scenarios above, as far as I understand.

Vekkna1 votes

The CC has already hit the target and thus Black Shield has nothing to do there except protect the target from further damage and CC.

No, the spell has already hit the target. The cc has not hit the target. A perfect example is Zilean throwing bombs. To block the stun, black shield has to be up when the bomb explodes, not when the bomb attaches.

If Morgana or anyone else wanted to have it spell shielded, she should have shielded him before this happened.

Drowzy is a timer, not a cc. Casting black shield during drowsy is the exact definition of shielding before a cc happens.

...stuns removed by Morgana's spell shield if she casts it after the target has already been stunned. Are you telling they should be? With your line of reasoning it seems to me that you are saying so.

Are you stunned when Drowzy? It's a yes or no question.

Illaoi - I am not sure how that works. She is just scary looking big auntie and I don't want to get anythere near her.

Her E is a short line skillshot that is blockable by minions. It pulls a champ's soul that can be attacked, and a % of the damage taken by the soul is sent to the real champ as a DOT. If the soul dies, the champ is slowed and spawns tentacles.

Black shield blocks the E from pulling a soul. It's not a cc, nor does it deal magic damage, but it's still blocked. If the soul is already pulled, and the champ is still tethered, black shield will block the slow when the soul dies or the tether is broken.

Vi/Malphite ults are skill shot, that works like many of the above skill shots

VI's ult is a point-and-click lockon, and Vi is unstoppable. You know that red line between VI and the target? That red line is exactly like the Drowzy timer. Vi has already used the skill, the skill has locked on, the cooldown is already ticking, and it's 100% impossible to prevent Vi from executing the rest of the skill.

But you can cast black shield before she gets to the target to prevent the entire cc. Same principle applies to Mao W.

Lux's/Zyra's/Ryze's root is about to hit the target or Xerath's/Anivia's stun is about to hit the target. If Morgana does not shield the target before the spell hits, the target gets CCed and all Morgana can do is to shield the target from further harm.

That's because the spell immediately applies cc. Zoe does not immediately apply cc, which is obvious because the target retains full control of their champ.

If the spell hits before Morgana can shield the target, the target will get CCed.

Again, that's future tense.

Zed ult: Isn't that a point&click ability to target? If so, it isn't similar to Zoe's E at all.

Point & click is utterly irrelevant. The comparison is how debuffs and delayed effects work in this game, not how they are targeted. Eve and Zed both debuff their target, and an effect happens after several seconds. That's exactly what Drowzy is, and yet, you can shield the damage from Zed's ult after the debuff is already applied, and you can shield the cc from charm after the debuff is already applied.

Penns5 votes

Its kinda true tho. Would be dumb if you could just go "oh someone got hit by Zoes skillshot, let me blackshield now to make it useless".

Then again, Fizz high cooldown shark CAN be blocked that way and gives even more time to react :]

Kai Guy3 votes

Ja, but the slow is applied the entire time and black shield wont remove that, it just blocks the next part of CC. Black shield does not cleanse. I don't get why this is an issue for so many player, guess I did not realize there where so many morgana mains out there.

Jaspers1 votes

You just said why it's an issue. Applying Black Shield to a slowed ally from Fizz ult, protects them from the second part of the spell, the knockup. So people are wondering why applying the spell shield to ally hit by the first part (while drowsy) doesn't stop the CC part (sleep). What CertainlyT seems to be trying to explain that the spell isn't 2 forms of CC with one after the other but it's 1 spell, drowsy and sleep are not separate CC but 1. Right?

People here are asking why? And it's a good question as both seem to have have different actions and are mentioned as different things. So they want clarity on it. Why even have drowsy? Why even mention it if it's one and the same spell. Just call the entire thing 'Fall Asleep' with the end result of this being you sleep until hit.

Baka Red1 votes

I will try to answer the "Why even have drowsy?" part here.

If there wasn't "Drowsy", the target would simply fall asleep the instant the spell hits him and that would make the effect scarier than it is now. Ie: It would be even more like Stun than it is now. The Sleep part is weaker than regular Stun (Stun won't end from little damage, sleep does).

Drowsy seems to be only a timer with little or no gameplay effect by itself.

Kai Guy1 votes

Well Red, I think part of the frustration is that Drowsy is a slow and its not mentioned properly in tooltips. I think the debuff Drowsy is there for clarity. They could just have it , after being hit champions are slowed escalating into sleep. . Adding a distinct animation and timer count down provides players a clear signal they have been hit and need to react. Giving it a name was for clarity, flavor, and to link the slow as a linked cc ability rather then 2 separate instances of Cc on 1 ability.

DeWolx3 votes

Yeah I don't understand the decision on this. I'm looking at Sleepy Trouble Bubble the way I look at Leblanc's Ethereal Chains. That is to say, Morg can Black Shield Leblanc's target after Ethereal Chains has successfully hit, which in turn then block the root effect from Ethereal Chains. This is just a really dumb excuse from CertainlyT and they need to look this over. Hell, even in a morg vs morg, they can each block each others ult after they have been applied.

Baka Red1 votes

I believe LB / Morgana shield functionality is the thing that should be fixed; LB's chain used to slow the target when it hit it, and it had 2nd part that rooted him. Since patch 6.22 LB's chain has had no slow, only the root on the 2nd part and thus the CC should follow the same procedures as Zoe's E: "Spell shield must block the initial hit or the CC won't be able to be stopped by it."

Salron1 votes

Except it's nothing like those tether based abilities Those require you to stay in range for the second part to be applied, and are a seperate instance of damage also

Zoe's E has an instant slow and the Sleep(with no secondary damage is going to be applied onto you after a delay no matter what unlike those tethers which you can still escape

Infernape2 votes

It's basically like Fizz's ult. When it hits you, it slows you then knocks you up. Much like how her E slows you then puts you to Sleep. Morgana can Black Shield the knock up from Chum the Waters but can't Black Shield the sleep. It's quite inconsistent imo.

Tenth Leper3 votes

If you are the Morgana in this case you can either:

Get better and actually shield people in time

Or

Be glad Zoe q is magic damage so you will block a chunk of it with the shield anyway.

I see no problem with this, even though I play a lot of morg (was my 3rd lvl 7 mastery) and I DO think Zoe is op.

Kai Guy1 votes

I want you to ask your self how do you feel if sleepy bubble now instantly applies sleep with no drowsy wind up? Step on the trap, works like cait snares, get hit, works like a morg Q. That removes your issue with it feeling bad to reactively apply a black shield to not cleanse the debuff, but how would you feel about zoe if she was in this state?

DariusDemiurge1 votes

Bring back season 1/2 Morgana where black shield removed debuffs.

CertainlyT better stay in his ill gotten mansion, if he is in lane he getting ganked for this crime. No sin against Morgana is ever forgiven.

Lord Phazanor 1 votes

"I am always open to revisiting these things" that's a flat out lie. Where did S@20 get that message from CT anyways? It has no source and MooBeat always puts sources. If you Google the message, only this post and the one in S@20 come up.
Weird.

Selegun1 votes

Not sure if this belongs in Gameplay or Memes and Games...

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