Riot, if you're not going to put all the effort into updating old skins to match their price...

Oleandervine·Jun 3, 2019·160 votes·22,111 views

Either delay the VGUs until the work is fully completed, or lower the price of those skins to match your lower quality of work. It's unacceptable for you to release half-baked work, especially when there are standards you yourself has set in regards to what special things certain skin price tiers bestow upon skin, and still expect us to want to buy or be happy with having a clearly underdeveloped skin that's not worth it's price.

Notably, there are Kayle and Morgana's Battleborn, Exiled, Transcended, and Sinful Succulence skins. All are 975 RP. This means they should at bare minimum get new VFX and a new recall. None have new recalls. Exiled got recolored VFX (after public outcry), and Battleborn ONLY got recolored VFX because you could piggyback it on the recolored VFX you gave to Judgment (again, after public outcry). These skins were especially problematic because you gave the full treatment to Morgana's other two 975 RP skins - Ghost Bride and Bewitching, and it's frankly insulting to us as customers to see you guys do this. Now we're seeing it again with Mordekaiser, notably Lord, using the base skin's VFX.

This is unacceptable. You set standards. Stick to them. Don't sell us or remodel expensive products, and leave them at a tier of standards that is LOWER than the price you've set. So again, either reduce the price of these skins, or do better work.

98 Comments

InfernapeJun 3, 201957 votes

Goes to show, Riot's own skin tiers don't make sense. What's the difference between Birdio that is 975 and Pizza Delivery Sivir that is 1350? They both have new models, new VFX, a recall, new sounds and Birdio even has an entirely new dance.

Aside from that, them giving Infernal VFX (it's literally a copy paste of Pentakill's VFX), when it's a 520 shouldn't have happened when Lord Morde is 975. Either Riot needs to stick to their own skin tier criteria and give it VFX at least or they need to lower the cost of Lord Morde.

Luxanna AhegaoJun 3, 201916 votes

sivir has boobs

GlaricionJun 3, 201914 votes

Birdio (presumably) has a cloaca.

Luxanna AhegaoJun 3, 20198 votes

didn't need that mental image

BLIGHTBRINGERJun 4, 20192 votes

Rip

Spicy RiceJun 4, 20191 votes

Sivir got a sneaky cosplay

Steel LadyJun 3, 201922 votes

If I could upvote twice, I would.

It's strange because we see all of the recent skins/skin-lines being released and its pretty evident how they're setting the bar up significantly high for themselves, I mean homeguard effects on epic skins were unthought-of a couple of seasons ago but are now a staple in epic skins today at the same price. It's crazy how (and I'm sorry for saying it) utterly lazy these rioters are with these reworked skins. Birdio was a 975 skin, Blood Moon Evelynn was a 975 skin, all of which have unique VFX and recalls. Heck, the Riot Kayle had her own unique VFX and recall, yet after they reworked her, all they did was re-color her base VFX (as you've stated, after public outcry), and worse of all, used the same base recall but with added drones. I whole-heartedly agree, this is completely unacceptable, and quite frankly very embarrassing on their part.

OleandervineJun 3, 201915 votes

I think what was even more embarrassing is that some of the Rioters who were working on the skins didn't even know the pricing of the skins. Jinxylord (I think that's who spearheaded their reworks, forgive me if it's not you) assumed that Sinful and Unmasked/Transcended were 520 RP skins, which was an initial reason why they never got VFX or recalls. That's just embarrassing, when the people doing the work don't even know what's going on with what they're working on. That'd be like a computer repair technician at an Apple store only knowing how to repair Dell computers. What more, when asked in a Q+A about why Sinful didn't get VFX when other Cooking Master skins did, like BBQ Leona (750 RP), ANOTHER Riot mistakenly assumed BBQ Leona was 975 RP and argued that that was why it got a single new particle. So Riot has shown that they don't know their own products, and didn't do something as basic as brushing up on the notes about things such as the prices of the skins that they're supposed to be updating.

AbiwonKenabiJun 3, 20193 votes

To be fair, that's a lot for any one person to remember, and relatively useless information at that (Sinful Succulence isn't even available in the store anymore). Still, it takes a 5 second Google search to find the price tier of these skins. Maybe they don't need to know the pricing off-hand, but if you're sitting down to update an existing skin, at least figuring out the general aim of these skins would be useful.

Valor BotJun 3, 20194 votes

Not to mention Jinxylord is a game designer, NOT an artist or QA analyst or product manager or what have you. I don’t blame him for not knowing. That’s not his territory at all.

Sassmast3rJun 3, 20199 votes

The fact that they won't lower prices on skins that no longer meet their own standards that they set for themselves makes absolutely no sense.

Don't feel like adding effects and a recall to Sinful Succulence Morgana? Fine, it wasn't a 975 RP skin before her rework anyways, so...lower the price to 750 RP.

Are they afraid of people complaining that they paid full price for these skins before they implement new prices? Fine, refund them the RP difference.

Why is it so difficult? You can't tell me they don't keep track of past purchases.

PaladinNOJun 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Are they afraid of people complaining that they paid full price for these skins before they implement new prices? Fine, refund them the RP difference.

Why is it so difficult? You can't tell me they don't keep track of past purchases.

They are keeping track, but they claim it's too much work to do account adjustments of multiple individual players . https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/uk0MeJ18-update-on-yesterdays-capsule-pricing-error

I bought both Wildfire Zyra and Frostblade Irelia back when they were listed as 1350 RP skins, and I never saw any refund when they were given a price adjustment (both are now 975 RP skins).

Sassmast3rJun 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

They are keeping track, but they claim it's too much work to do account adjustments of multiple individual players . https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/uk0MeJ18-update-on-yesterdays-capsule-pricing-error

I bought both Wildfire Zyra and Frostblade Irelia back when they were listed as 1350 RP skins, and I never saw any refund when they were given a price adjustment (both are now 975 RP skins).

Thank you for mentioning this, I actually never knew those two skins used to be 1350 RP, at least that shows Riot has the capacity to do skin price adjustments.

PaladinNOJun 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Thank you for mentioning this, I actually never knew those two skins used to be 1350 RP, at least that shows Riot has the capacity to do skin price adjustments.

http://forums.eune.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=563554&page=1

Frankly, you won't like what it says there.

PaladinNOAug 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Thank you for mentioning this, I actually never knew those two skins used to be 1350 RP, at least that shows Riot has the capacity to do skin price adjustments.

Old thread, I know, but I accidentally stumbled upon the thread just now that listed the price changed skins: https://eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/content/skin-rp-price-changes

In case you wanted to know the full list. :)

ElipoJun 3, 20194 votes

This is such a pain. There are so many champions that need an urgent vgu. Seriously many of them (and many skins) look so awfull I bet they drive new players away.

Support PositionJun 3, 20194 votes

Pfft these skins are nothing... You should see annie in wonderlands cost...

OleandervineJun 3, 20191 votes

Annie was updated 7 years ago. That's not even close to Galio's rework in 2017, where they actually began to update 1820 skins to match their pricing tier.

Support PositionJun 4, 20191 votes

No excuse.

OleandervineJun 4, 20191 votes

That is an excuse, because prior to Galio, NO SKINS got any kind of update to match their pricing tier. They were all treated as model swaps by Riot. Yes, it's shitty, but it just was not something they practiced until they decided to change that policy with Gatekeeper Galio. Furthermore, when Annie and TF and that lot were VGU'd in 2012, Riot didn't even have skin pricing standards in place, it was mostly based on whatever they felt like pricing them at. Those pricing tiers didn't really come into existence until 2013-2014.

As I've said countless times though, champions with skins that weren't updated under the modern standards don't really have relevance in this conversation. I'm talking about champions who are currently in the VGU process or have been recently VGU'd, when Riot has had an established skin standard that they've asserted they would meet with VGUs, and yet Riot has done half-assed work and not met those established standards they're supposed to be meeting with all VGUs since Galio.

FlashesJun 4, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Support Position,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=rWhGytk1,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-06-03T20:32:06.144+0000)

Pfft these skins are nothing... You should see annie in wonderlands cost...

Yeah there is NO excuse for that one

Crash BandicootJun 3, 20193 votes

Riot could care less and it shows.

AbiwonKenabiJun 3, 20192 votes

I don't even think its a problem to revisit skins either, but they clearly won't. If they don't want to delay the long-awaited reworks, then assign a smaller team of VFX artists or something to revisit a few of the skins they couldn't fully deliver on. Pentakill in particular is a beloved community skin, I'm surprised they didn't give it a better treatment.

Its odd, because Akali's skins turned out extremely good in quality, even skins that didn't _need _ to look that good. Suddenly rework skins feel like they are slacking a little, which is disappointing because I know what these vfx artists and animators are capable of. They can do better. Especially with Mordekaiser, he doesn't have that many skins.

Tin ObliteratesJun 3, 20192 votes

I just want new VFX for Lord Morde :C

OleandervineJun 3, 20192 votes

Well, I wanted VFX for the Kayle and Morgana skins...

NaalithJun 3, 20192 votes

The worst part is Riot seems to be banking on the hype of the skins getting re-released as well only to screw over people who invested in sales. Both Lord and Pentakill Mordekaiser have been on sale within the last few months and honestly the only reason I can see them putting a sale out like that when a rework is in development is to bait people into spending money on the skins. I can totally see someone going "Hmm, I don't like Morde but at half off I guess I'll buy Lord because it's gonna sick when his update comes out."

ZT XperimentorJun 4, 20191 votes

Like pre-ordering a video game, it's rarely a good idea, especially since we see what lack of balance they prefer here.

JaehunEricJun 4, 20192 votes

FREAKIN AGREE WITH UR OPINION MAN Kayn

VelasanJun 3, 20191 votes

Idk, by the same standard haven't they updated a couple of really ancient skins to look nicer?

They also sold some of those updated skins for a reduced price before the VGU's happened. So, for example, the rose morgana skin was in the store on sale right before that update. Akali as well, her crimson skin received a huge update, and then you could easily pick it up.

Plus they aren't receiving nearly as much for these skins since a lot of people already have them.

OleandervineJun 3, 20192 votes

They've said, and they've consistently stuck to the point, that they don't update skins outside of full VGUs. The ONLY exception was Pulsefire Ezreal, which so severely outdated at that time that it was barely worth 1820 RP, let alone 3250 RP - they even noted that it was a Band-Aid at that time until they could do something more, which eventually turned out to be Ezreal's VGU a year later.

As for the "reduced price," that was an ordinary sale, that just so happened to fall before Morgana's VGU. It was pure coincidence. Regarding Crimson/Infernal, that was a trend they followed to update what was once a boring recolor into something with a little more umph.. They did the same with Evelynn's Shadow skin, and both were specifically given a little more pizazz as kind of a way to throw a bone to the people who bothered to purchase such previously ancient, low quality skins.

As for the money, it doesn't matter that they're not making a lot of money off these skins. First of all, they were ALREADY working on her skins as a whole. It's like working on a car - if you've opened it up, have taken apart the engine to repair something or replace something, there's no reason at all to not repair or replace all of the other problematic parts while you're already working on it. For this, it's better to do it all at once while your team is in that mind set and has your vision to operate with, and knows the intimate details of the programming and animations that you've recently recreated. Furthermore, no one will buy these skins in the future if they ever release them from the vault for events or anything. Why spend money on an overpriced skin that gives you nothing more than base level, when you can buy a brand new skins, or hell, GHOST BRIDE OR BEWITCHING, and get so much more? Riot's only hurting their bottom line with this shitty quality of work. What could have taken a few hours while they were already updating Morgana and Kayle would have gone a very long way, and would have already been looped within the production cycle of what they were doing.

JaspersJun 3, 20191 votes

Have you seen the auto attack animations for Dark Star Jhin?

Have you seen the auto attack animations for Aetherwing Kayle?

One set is completely unique and amazing, the other matches the base skin. I know there was a lot of work to be put in but I don't think Aetherwing meets the standard of modern 1820 skins.

OleandervineJun 3, 20192 votes

Aetherwing isn't perfect, but it's animations package is vastly different from the main skin's, it has the entire upgrading thing, a new VO, and completely new particles. It fits the standards for an 1820 skin.

Frontline FuryJun 3, 20191 votes

Exactly why i don't buy 1350 skins. They're glorified 975.

OleandervineJun 3, 20192 votes

Well, except that Riot did announce like 3-4 years ago that they would be shifting their pricing to where 1350 was the new standard, basically to replace 975. They said they'd make 975s from time to time, but that the majority of what was once that price point is 1350. So that's not a shock, and they've stuck to that.

It's just that things at the 975 pricing tier should have basic things like a recall and new VFX, which Riot has not stuck to for VGUs.

OtakuBurritoJun 3, 20191 votes

From my understanding I thought it was:

750: Costume/effects the same 975: Release skins and skins that have a bit more detail/new particles 1350: Costume/Recall/Particles/detailed/Modified Voice 1820: Costume/Recall/Particles/Details/Voice/Interactions

Like this makes sense.

What Riot is doing now doesn't. Odyssey Kayn being 1820 makes sense. There's a LOT of new things that make the skin cool and worth it. But not Gentlemen ChoGath. I understand why but in terms of strickly design it's basically a 1350 skin at best

OleandervineJun 3, 20194 votes

People keep bringing up the ancient as fuck 1820 skins. Stop it. Those were created LONG AGO, and those champions have not been VGU'd. The point of this post is about champions who have been brought up to modern standards with a VGU, and their skins have not been updated to meet those standards. Those standards for VGUs generally began in 2017 with Galio, as he was the first champion who got his skins updated uniquely apart from the base VFX and recall.

As for your understanding, it's somewhat correct. Riot lists 975 as being pushed beyond, with extras to give it a unique feel. Recent 975 skins are Birdio, Sweeper Rammus, and Blood Moon Evelynn. All got unique recalls, unique particles, and in Galio's case, a unique dance. So compared to skins within a VGU like Morgana's and Kayle's, they only brought 2 skins up to those standards - Ghost Bride and Bewitching.

Dominion ChiJun 4, 20192 votes

{quoted}

People keep bringing up the ancient as fuck 1820 skins. Stop it. Those were created LONG AGO, and those champions have not been VGU'd. The point of this post is about champions who have been brought up to modern standards with a VGU, and their skins have not been updated to meet those standards. Those standards for VGUs generally began in 2017 with Galio, as he was the first champion who got his skins updated uniquely apart from the base VFX and recall.

As for your understanding, it's somewhat correct. Riot lists 975 as being pushed beyond, with extras to give it a unique feel. Recent 975 skins are Birdio, Sweeper Rammus, and Blood Moon Evelynn. All got unique recalls, unique particles, and in Galio's case, a unique dance. So compared to skins within a VGU like Morgana's and Kayle's, they only brought 2 skins up to those standards - Ghost Bride and Bewitching.

Ancient 1820 skin argument is still valid, when new players join the game and want to buy skins, they won't know and you cant use the arugment "they're old" to try an entice them to buy... that's dumb. Everything else you said is correct though.

OleandervineJun 4, 20191 votes

It's not valid in this space, because I'm talking about champions who have or are in the process of being actively updated, and which Riot has not updated their skins to meet the modern standards. Skins like Gentleman Cho'Gath, on Cho'Gath who hasn't had a visual update AT ALL, are irrelevant to this conversation, because Riot has not updated those champions and thus not had an opportunity to update the skins they have.

It's like restoring an old Cadillac. You're taking it to your garage, replacing the parts and maybe even putting in some modern parts so it can process fuel better, whatever. I don't know cars, I'm shooting from the hip here. Either way, someone else can't then look at a rusted piece of garbage Cadillac sitting on cinderblocks in the neighbor's yard and compare it to the Cadillac you just restored, and try to make direct comparisons - one has been restored, even updated, one is in the wretched condition it's been in for years since it's original release. You can only compare the quality once both have been restored.

Dominion ChiJun 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

It's not valid in this space, because I'm talking about champions who have or are in the process of being actively updated, and which Riot has not updated their skins to meet the modern standards. Skins like Gentleman Cho'Gath, on Cho'Gath who hasn't had a visual update AT ALL, are irrelevant to this conversation, because Riot has not updated those champions and thus not had an opportunity to update the skins they have.

It's like restoring an old Cadillac. You're taking it to your garage, replacing the parts and maybe even putting in some modern parts so it can process fuel better, whatever. I don't know cars, I'm shooting from the hip here. Either way, someone else can't then look at a rusted piece of garbage Cadillac sitting on cinderblocks in the neighbor's yard and compare it to the Cadillac you just restored, and try to make direct comparisons - one has been restored, even updated, one is in the wretched condition it's been in for years since it's original release. You can only compare the quality once both have been restored.

Non-updated champs, sure. but champs that have had some for of update visually need to. (beating a dead horse here with this one,but still valid) Pulsefire Ezreal. the champ had a visual upgrade, the skin barely touched, and lets not sit here and act like that skin is worthy of an ultimate skin when ezreals newly released legendary has better qualifications to be an ultimate than pulsefire.

Sorry for the late reply, i only pop in the boards every so often.

OleandervineJun 10, 20191 votes

I would beg to differ. Ezreal's VU was a ground up VU, nothing was preserved from his old models at all. To claim that Pulsefire was "barely touched" is pure false, as it was overhauled just like everything else about him. It definitely lives up to it's ultimate price tag, as that was a major goal of giving him a VU. While I do note that some animations are similar, he's got enough diversity and change happening in that skin to merit it's 3250 price tag, as it does a lot more than an 1820 skin.

Dominion ChiJun 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I would beg to differ. Ezreal's VU was a ground up VU, nothing was preserved from his old models at all. To claim that Pulsefire was "barely touched" is pure false, as it was overhauled just like everything else about him. It definitely lives up to it's ultimate price tag, as that was a major goal of giving him a VU. While I do note that some animations are similar, he's got enough diversity and change happening in that skin to merit it's 3250 price tag, as it does a lot more than an 1820 skin.

It was basically barely touched, hence when the VGU came in, alot of people complained about there being a lack of changes that turns the old ultimate(at the of vgu being at best 1350 by todays standards) to after the vgu being at best 1820. Just because there are more things doesn't mean they're significant... which was what most of the complaints were about, nothing too different too notice outside of his Q/auto attack changes(which I personally feel was the two things they didn't need to touch.)

He doesn't have enough to merit a current 3250 tag, i will agree he has enough to warrant a 1820 tag, just like the battle academia skin... but not an ultimate at the max price, maybe if they lowered it like they did with miss fortunes then sure.

SukishooJun 3, 20191 votes

Morgana's other two 975 RP skins

Three* (as LW is not a 1350;was changed long ago)

Morde on the other hand has just had some of his recolors happen after plenty of complaints https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/tOZ9elEE-rejoice-mordekaiser-skin-lovers-the-recolors-have-happened but still they need to actually give these skins some real care when they first start doing work on them.

OleandervineJun 4, 20191 votes

And also, that's not even all of his particles - that's only his passive. So it's kind of half-hearted, and won't really count until they go all the way.

SukishooJun 4, 20192 votes

No. Lord and King got more than just the passive. The other skins just got the passive.

Critty92Jun 4, 20191 votes

THEY. CANT. DO. EVERYTHING. AT. ONCE

GreenLoreJun 4, 20192 votes

Thats why the opener says they should delay the VGU. Waiting 2 more weeks would be more than enough time to add a recall for Lord Mordekaiser and reducing the skin price to 750 should be easily possible without any need for a delay.