I know why Talon feels so much weaker

TheGrot·Nov 12, 2016·4 votes·512 views

The bleed was taken off of his Q. I know that at first it doesn't seem that way, but it pretty much gutted the utility that black cleaver gave him which is what made him good before the rework. The movespeed interaction with the bleed on his Q along with the perpetual armor reduction. Now I feel like I'm playing old talon with two hands tied behind my back.

That, and I wish Q would auto reset after jumping to them. It feels impossible to deal damage when chasing.

EDIT: After more thought, I think most of these problems wouldn't feel quite so bad if he didn't have to rely on using his ultimate first thing in a fight or to jump on someone

10 Comments

L RayquazaNov 12, 20161 votes

y'know, that bleed that they buffed and moved to his passive? here is the comparison, the Bleed on Noxian Diplomacy was 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 Base Damage with a 100% Bonus AD Ratio over (just taking a shot, if you can correct me it would be nice) 3 seconds Blade's End is (Growing levels 1-11, capping at 11) 60/70/80/90/100/110/120/130/140/150/160 with a 200% bonus AD Ratio over 2 seconds

so now not only does it do more damage in a shorter time, even though you lose out on the stacks for Cleaver, you get more stacks before they even start bleeding, i don't know off the top of my head what the tick is, so lets just say .5 seconds on old Talon simply hitting them with a Q does the auto damage for one stack, then applies it 6 more times over the duriation of the bleed leading to the last two being the only ones that get the full benefit from cleaver new Talon requires 3 spell hits so you have 3 previous stacks of cleaver, hitting the auto applies another stack, then you have 4 ticks from the bleed, once again making the last two being the only ones to benefit fully the difference here is the insane change in damage which is easily more than double

so according to these numbers, new Talon bleed is better

EDIT: I just realized you were talking the MS utility of the bleed from cleaver, thought you just ment damage and so I wanted to check that out, losing 2 ticks of BC worth of MS, however you should have enough damage and mobility to make up for it between Noxian Diplomacy and Assassin's Path if you are in jungle for escapes

TheGrotNov 12, 20161 votes

That's not the point. In teamfights you move A LOT slower, and the armor reduction utility is mostly gone. That bleed was his maneuverability, and now it's gone.

L RayquazaNov 13, 20161 votes

like i said, i over looked you were talking about the utility and mobility, if you are in the jungle you could still have some decent mobility hopping around with the parkour, however with Rake and Shadow Assault you can make more bleeds available to proc

RequiemsfireNov 12, 20161 votes

It's more like he lost his primary initiating tool (His blink) which also provided 15% damage amplification. It's more the lack of blink that made him weaker due to being forced to dash to a target at a short range is inefficient against anyone with hard CC.

TheGrotNov 12, 20161 votes

No that wasn't it. That change was fine, it's the lack of bleed on Q I'm pretty sure that did it.

RequiemsfireNov 12, 20161 votes

No way man, that bleed dealt 12% of talon's AD as true damage over time. I assure you in terms of damage it did very little other than finish off targets who got very low.

TheGrotNov 12, 20161 votes

It wasn't the damage that mattered. It was the bleed interaction with black cleaver that allowed you to get more continuous damage off in a fight. And now you don't get the same armor reduction stacking.

ChalizardNov 12, 20161 votes

He feels much stronger than he used to be, I don't know what are you Talking about, the only thing that was nerfed is his R damage, rest of spells were buffed or changed.

I have no idea how have you done that talon feels weaker for you, he has better damage, better mobility and ways to roam.

TheGrotNov 12, 20161 votes

Removing the bleed from his Q and making it something that doesn't proc right away removed an awful lot of utility from Black Cleaver, which was the teamfight/utility variation of talon. Also, just in general, he feels more reliant on his ultimate while dealing less damage overall.

foristNov 13, 20161 votes

I need more time to play talon, he's practically perma-banned in all of my games. My inital impression is that he's weaker but more slippery, so you can get away after killing someone, but you're not getting multiple kills without your team.