Jayce does not need BIG buffs

TheGrot·Aug 11, 2016·44 votes·14,486 views

Jayce is in a good state. He just happens to require a lot of games to be good at. In order to play him at a high level, you have to be reliably consistent with him, but he has a really good payoff. I think if you guys try to buff his damage too much or buff him in general too much, he's going to be broken and toxic to play against. If you feel he needs a buff, I think give him a smaller buff than a 40% ad scaling on auto. He does not need that big of a buff. Either reduce the scaling by a good margin, or pick a different, smaller buff.

Also good call on reverted the 4second cd on his R. That would've been busted. I don't want to see a high skill champ with high pay off get ruined because he ends up getting over nerfed from over buffs. You can't look at play rates with Jayce because he requires such a high amount of skill to play. You have to put in more time than most champions to be good at him.

66 Comments

RiotMeddlerAug 13, 20169 votes

We're with you, small buff is the goal here. The R change does look pretty sizeable on paper, it's bonus AD only though on a champion who itemizes Mana, Pen and CDR as well as AD however. Total amount of damage added isn't as dramatic as you'd initially predict as a result. It's also dependent on Jayce actually getting into melee and cooldown limited (every 12s without CDR assuming you're swapping as soon as you can which often isn't optimal).

It's also still in testing of course. From memory it's showing some good promise without the issues the previous change (R CD reduced) created, still got a few days of development time before we have to lock the patch though so conceivable it could still change.

MunchCrunchLunchAug 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

We're with you, small buff is the goal here. The R change does look pretty sizeable on paper, it's bonus AD only though on a champion who itemizes Mana, Pen and CDR as well as AD however. Total amount of damage added isn't as dramatic as you'd initially predict as a result. It's also dependent on Jayce actually getting into melee and cooldown limited (every 12s without CDR assuming you're swapping as soon as you can which often isn't optimal).

It's also still in testing of course. From memory it's showing some good promise without the issues the previous change (R CD reduced) created, still got a few days of development time before we have to lock the patch though so conceivable it could still change.

am guessing the R cd reduce by 2 seconds made him get 20-30 CDR early. and just spam the empowered attack like an ezreal Q. good thing it got reverted

StephenizgodAug 13, 20161 votes

As long as he doesn't regain his Destroyer of Top Lane moniker, I am fine with any changes to Jayce. He is an incredibly interesting champion that you rarely ever see anymore, despite him being the Terror of Top Lane for awhile. I am not a big numbers guy so I can't say for certain if these changes will turn him back into Slayer of Top Lane, however I am a bit wary of any damage buffs because I remember first hand the pain of when he was Death God of Top Lane. Just no more Killer of Top Lane and I am fine with anything....

Was that overkill? We all remember what I am referring to though right?

beanyAug 13, 20162 votes

Can you rescale thundering blow's % hp from 8-20% to 10-20%? Those decimals in between ranks really triggers me. On a more serious note, the mana cost buff really doesn't do anything for him ever since it got relegated to third max, but nice to see a revert. Furthermore why does he need such a high cooldown on to the skies (melee Q) at earlier levels? I think making its cooldown scale more smoothly would incentivise more early trades with hammer form.

SniperkajAug 13, 20162 votes

And at the same time, rescale his Hypercharge to 70-120 %... The 8 % extra damage per rank just look stupid. Small tweaks really, but cleaner numbers are preferred

LuciferAug 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

We're with you, small buff is the goal here. The R change does look pretty sizeable on paper, it's bonus AD only though on a champion who itemizes Mana, Pen and CDR as well as AD however. Total amount of damage added isn't as dramatic as you'd initially predict as a result. It's also dependent on Jayce actually getting into melee and cooldown limited (every 12s without CDR assuming you're swapping as soon as you can which often isn't optimal).

It's also still in testing of course. From memory it's showing some good promise without the issues the previous change (R CD reduced) created, still got a few days of development time before we have to lock the patch though so conceivable it could still change.

I really worry about you guys even giving minor buffs to Jayce. I remember back a few seasons ago when he was in every game because he could just bully the shit out of everyone. He's actually still strong right now, just not super popular. Playing melee vs him is probably one of the most frustrating lanes in the game.

TheGrotAug 13, 20161 votes

Ahhh, that's a relief! Yah the R CD was a massive buff. Hopefully if it is too strong, then it will just be tuned back a bit rather than nerfing other abilities. I think I didn't read that it was bonus AD at first, so I was thinking about how the Hammer Q - Auto -Thunderlords damage might be too toxic in lane phase. But jayce doesn't build hardly any bonus AD when it would matter most, because tear, so it should be good as just a small mid/late game buff.

Wizard HatAug 13, 20161 votes

Speaking of small buffs, could we get some love for Shyvana? After the sated rework the ap ratio "buffs" were a slap in the face, and the fury gain buffs really don't do anything for her. Perhaps buff q ad ratio in lower ranks a little bit, or even just revert the q nerfs that made sense when she could build devourer?

NazdroviaAug 14, 20161 votes

Why not switching his hammer form (passive buff thingy included) ratios from "Bonus AD" into "Total AD"? So he can be viable as a melee bruiser as well, rather than only an ADC/Assassin wannabe?

LostFr0stAug 11, 20166 votes

They're just testing stuff. Let's say they want to change it to 20% AD, they'd test it at 40% so that they could get the data more easily since it would bring the buff to the front more.

bill84Aug 12, 20164 votes

They just ruining AP Jayce tbh.

astralwitAug 12, 20163 votes

He does need it imo. His scaling is almost as bad as Corki's.

TheGrotAug 12, 20167 votes

I am sure you are only saying that because you have your own conceptions on the champion and you don't play him at a high level and or haven't seen him played at a high level. Jayce actually has much better scaling with the new itemization, and probably the best mid game in the entire game if you can pull him off.

JoquanAug 12, 20168 votes

You need to take off the rose stained glasses. Jayce isn't in a good spot atm. He gets out shadowed by GP and Azir, while being much more dangerous to use than the both of him, because of his kit requires him going all in while GP/Azir can do everything from safety while doing much more damage than him. You have no reason to pick jayce over GP or Azir. There's a reason pros play them instead of Jayce, they're much better than him. I agree with what you said, he could use some buffs and they don't need to be huge.

Champion SkinAug 12, 20164 votes

Pros also seem to pick Varus over Jayce if they want long range AD poke damage in the mid lane

PoskeAug 12, 20162 votes

After 5 jayce games you should be fine tbh

There is a go to combo

Q>E>W auto 3 times > R > QW aa twice > E > RQ

sometimes you start from melee but you get a point

TheGrotAug 12, 20162 votes

No actually. It takes a lot more than that before you can play him to the level you need to be able to. It's not as simple as Q E. You have to Press Q, and in the cast time you have to bring your cursor back to your champion model and press E. You have to play him enough that you can do this 100% of the time and you can aim good enough to land the poke. If you miss, it's a 16 second cooldown. There's also the knowledge of just how to use him, outside of playing him well.

AeszarckAug 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cltELZoq,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-08-12T02:39:37.638+0000)

After 5 jayce games you should be fine tbh

There is a go to combo

Q>E>W auto 3 times > R > QW aa twice > E > RQ

sometimes you start from melee but you get a point

Jayce has a lot of depth in his kit.

PoskeAug 12, 20161 votes

Thats not really lots od depth

If you want there is le bl atleast until they ruin her I could make a hour long guide

Only thing I didnt use from those tricks on jayce is Having big attackspeed while you are melee with w. But then again whats the point of doing that when you can attack with range with attackspeed

The Vertical W is extremly unpractical. If it wasnt so damn hard to perform in heat of the battle if would be useful

So far I have only seen 1 jayce player who did it consistently and pretty sure since then stuff changed

Ultra suprised that there is no mention of Jayce insec but whatever

KoKobotoAug 12, 20161 votes

Melee Hypercharge so you can gain back mana faster and fluid easier into Melee E, also maximizes DPS when you have Electricity Field on (more auto attacks within the field). Particle Accelerator perpendicular to Jayce takes practice. To practice you can start by not placing it right on you and a bit to the side to make it easier then later on decrease the distance away it is from you.

He has kiting with 2.50A/S MH ranged auto attack by quickly auto attacking during Transform Auto reset MC>MH with Hyper Charge which is pretty neat Also has MH(E)>animation cancel>MC(QE) which is COMPLETELY unavoidable

And he has the same flash knockback as you mentioned lol

SniperkajAug 13, 20161 votes

i cant pull the Melee E -> animation cancel transform -> QE off xD

Im The Jayce GodAug 12, 20162 votes

Wouldnt you E first then Q? Thats what ive always done

QjTHqo3RTqAug 12, 20162 votes

You can E as the Q goes out so the enemy doesn't have as much of a reaction time

333lomAug 12, 20161 votes

That, I should try.

QjTHqo3RTqAug 12, 20161 votes

It's what most jayce players do nowadays

Im The Jayce GodAug 13, 20161 votes

Holy hell that works a lot better! Everytime id place the E first the Q, id always miss due to them using their dodging ability (Riven, vayne, etc). But now they dont even have the reaction time for it and i hit them everytime lmao. Thanks for telling me this.

AsphodelNextAug 12, 20162 votes

It's 40% bonus AD, not 40% AD. It's a smaller buff; 40% total AD would be like 20-40 damage more. And since Jayce doesn't exactly go heavy AD, you don't get quite as much out of that bonus AD ratio as say a Riven would.

Still a pretty big buff, but I think Jayce could actually use a buff; he's not exactly top tier/competitive with the common picks right now. Still less of a buff than 4 second ult CD though; that's just crazy with the extra enhanced autos plus just having the ability to always swap.

TheGrotAug 12, 20162 votes

Reason he's not played in competitive is because of how hard he is to play. If you tracked pros you'd know they've tried picking him up. Several have. Coco is the only one who's put the necessary time in on it. And in spring when he was bringing it out, it was getting perma banned against him.

HazyCloud7Aug 12, 20168 votes

Definitely not true. GP and Azir are certainly harder to master and they've seen lots of competitive play. You really think players as mechanically gifted as Huni, Smeb, Bjergsen, Faker ect...can't learn how to play him? These guys are the best players in the world, league's ahead of even the best non-pro Jayce mains in the world. If they put some time in ranked and scrims they could easily learn Jayce.

He's not played because there are better options in the meta both in top and mid lane. Irelia, GP, Shen, Jarvan, Swain, Trundle, Gnar top to name a few.

MLDzXnRRRAug 12, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Definitely not true. GP and Azir are certainly harder to master and they've seen lots of competitive play. You really think players as mechanically gifted as Huni, Smeb, Bjergsen, Faker ect...can't learn how to play him? These guys are the best players in the world, league's ahead of even the best non-pro Jayce mains in the world. If they put some time in ranked and scrims they could easily learn Jayce.

He's not played because there are better options in the meta both in top and mid lane. Irelia, GP, Shen, Jarvan, Swain, Trundle, Gnar top to name a few.

GP and Azir could be harder to master, but they bring way more than Jayce. They also have no mana problems. Currently there is no reason to pick him over alternatives, because he doesn't bring enough utility or raw damage.

333lomAug 12, 20162 votes

What does Jayce bring to a team compared to other currently meta picks? Azir has greater mobility and the ult trick, GP global ult, slows and self-cleanse. Jayce has a knockback and a slow, and a way to speed up allies but in a much more limited way than Karma. Doesn't seem like much. And he can choose whether to go up close or at range but this doesn't seem like a huge benefit to pros, or am I mistaking? Plus those huge mana problems he has early. Would he ever even come back to meta if he has only these things to offer? Assuming e doesn't get overbuffed with numbers.

KoKobotoAug 12, 20161 votes

I don't think he has huge mana problems. People are just used to new champions having no gates at all on mana, like Jhin and Fiora etc who literally spam skills a bunch before their mana noticeably drops.

333lomAug 12, 20161 votes

True. I play mostly mages so I automatically compared Jayce to them, and those times that I played him, noticed that he runs out of mana very quickly only in the very early levels, like, up to 3rd or something. When he buys a tear, the problem decreases a lot.

LovelleAug 12, 20161 votes

GP is stronger at all phases of the game and even has easier build- pathing. Also has a much easier time coming back from a bad start. Mechanically, they are about the same, but GP is FAR more forgiving due to how his kit works.

redfeenixAug 12, 20162 votes

I thought jayce was the stupidest noob untill I played him during free week.

He is fuuuhhhn as fuck lmao and really strong. I used to watch dyrus plsy jayce a loooong time ago so I know some advanced mechanics. Got S in every gsmd that week. Bought him right away but I think I'll stick with Darius for ranked, jayce a squishy nub

Darkslayer85Aug 12, 20161 votes

Try him jungle. You need to know how to kite and manage forms, but it's really good.

He's got

Range 2 Slows Burst Speed Knockback

redfeenixAug 12, 20161 votes

I m is he has a ow on his melee q ( and what a cool looking ability) where's his other slow?

Darkslayer85Aug 12, 20161 votes

Oh, does ranged Q not slow?

NoblewindAug 12, 20162 votes

I agree he's in a very good state, however while the AD scale change is a buff (some small future change might be needed to compensate), it's more of a change to turn his empowered auto on hammer change into something that actually does what it's supposed to do beyond early game. Since you don't build AP it had literally 0 scaling.

EggplantosphereAug 12, 20162 votes

Former Jayce player, I couldn't agree more. Jayce's dmg is there but only if you string it together right. There are little tricks to his kit that unlock so much potential and so many plays to be made. I hope they don't overdue the buffs as I am wanting to pick up Jayce again soon. Just me trying to defend the Defender of Tomorrow Jayce

HibekiAug 12, 20161 votes

Clearly you weren't around in the Jayce top meta. He has and always will be a toxic design.

There is no way an AOE nidalee spear could possibly be balanced. Either it will be totally underwhelming or totally overwhelming, no inbetween.

SniperkajAug 12, 20161 votes

Well so Xerath, Ziggs and Lux are also toxic design? Please. Its a long cooldown skillshot that can be outplayed in several ways. Buy one tank item with armor, and they will not do more than 15 % of your HP. I do think however that he belongs in the midlane, not toplane

HibekiAug 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well so Xerath, Ziggs and Lux are also toxic design? Please. Its a long cooldown skillshot that can be outplayed in several ways. Buy one tank item with armor, and they will not do more than 15 % of your HP. I do think however that he belongs in the midlane, not toplane

15%? please. A normal Jayce empowered Q is about 40%.

SniperkajAug 13, 20161 votes

Now with Randuins or the like, which was what i said. QE only hurts really bad on targets with no armor items - even a Zhonyas will really limit the damage

AdriqnoheeAug 13, 20161 votes

Jayce is not as hard as you think he is.

TheYungSenseiAug 13, 20163 votes

I don't think Jayce is super hard either, but I think mastering him is pretty difficult. Imo, Jayce has a medium skill floor but a decently high skill ceiling.

SecondComingAug 13, 20161 votes

Lightning Field could be worked at. Early on it's good but later on it is basically negligible, passive part helps a lot more (unless when you finish off a Teemo with it because he blinded you c:). Also, his passive (Hextech Capacitor) could use some love imho, doesn't feel meaningful unless you're playing URF. Either increase the ms it gives or the duration. Or both :3

Oh and Jayce vs Viktor in-game event (like the Rengar/Kha'zix and Ashe/Lissandra/Sejuani) plox.

Darth Pixy MisaAug 14, 20161 votes

MY complaint is that mastery of jayce is knowing when to switch forms because of the 6 sec penalty. Reducing the cd just makes Jayce easier to use, have less counterplay, and gives Riot a excuse to keep his kit so watered down. I dont want that, Jayce should be difficult to use, depend on the player making the right decisions, and for all this skill Jayce players should have a larger payoff than they get right now. Jayce has clear weaknesses right now. He uses a lot of mana, if he switches he has to wait 6 sec to change back, He is squishy for a top laner (playing jayce means your team has 1 less tank(or no tanks)), Jayce does not have a powerfull ult move and his kit has been watered down over time, and Jayce is vulnerable to CC and gapclosers.

TerrakAug 14, 20161 votes

The only Jayce buff I need is the lag spike fix when switching to his hammer form.