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Morello, let's talk about Veigar and Trundle

Cloud273··1 votes·1,596 views

Pretty much all AP champs have CC (a couple don't, most of them do), but most of the hard CC in this game is either an ultimate or a skillshot. Veigar gets it at level 1. I also can't think of a single AP champ who gets more than 100% of their AP in bonus magic damage on their ult. Once Veigar hits a certain level (somewhere around level 12+) it's basically a free kill. Even if you deny him in lane, he still scales way too hard. I feel like there is very little counterplay to Veigar, and the counterplay that does exist is extremely expensive. He can pop banshee's (which is like 2600 gold) passive with his 'q' and then you take full ult damage. And as I said even if you deny him in lane he still hypserscales. Zero counterplay. Nerf this please.

I am aware that champions are supposed to have counters, but the number of champions Veigar counter is just ridiculous. Trundle is the same way. Anyone who builds armor or health is auto countered by him. So Trundle can build tanky and counter the enemy tank at the same time. Seems fair.

26 Comments

Jubbinaut3 votes

CC at lvl 1, for mid champs?

Ahri Anivia Annie Lissandra Lux Morgana Swain TwistedFate Viktor Yasuo Ziggs Xerath

I skipped over Syndra and Brand for their 2-skill combos (cc gated at lvl 2+), and I passed over Fiddlesticks and Zyra because they aren't played mid as often.

That's... quite a lot of champs who have access to their hard cc at lvl 1. Of those, 1 is point-and-click (Annie), 1 is PBAoE (Lissandra), 1 is an auto-attack (Twisted Fate), and 1 is a zone akin to Veigar's (Viktor). The rest are skillshots, and at least 3 of them are much easier to land than Veigar's.

I'm not as knowledgeable about how scaling works as I'd like to be, so I won't address that point, but let's not pretend that his stun is all that destructive.

Cloud2731 votes

{quoted}

CC at lvl 1, for mid champs?

Ahri Anivia Annie Lissandra Lux Morgana Swain TwistedFate Viktor Yasuo Ziggs Xerath

I skipped over Syndra and Brand for their 2-skill combos (cc gated at lvl 2+), and I passed over Fiddlesticks and Zyra because they aren't played mid as often.

That's... quite a lot of champs who have access to their hard cc at lvl 1. Of those, 1 is point-and-click (Annie), 1 is PBAoE (Lissandra), 1 is an auto-attack (Twisted Fate), and 1 is a zone akin to Veigar's (Viktor). The rest are skillshots, and at least 3 of them are much easier to land than Veigar's.

I'm not as knowledgeable about how scaling works as I'd like to be, so I won't address that point, but let's not pretend that his stun is all that destructive.

No you're still an idiot. Because the hit boxes on other stuns aren't as large as Veigar's. His cc is 10 times easier to hit than anyone else's.

Cindikle2 votes

Took that quite heavily. Responding first with calling him an idiot?

Syndra's is much easier to land.

Fiddle's is targeted.

Lissandra's is weaker only in range.

Annie is only weaker in that it requires her passive. Which she can harass with AA and hold her passive.

Ziggs is fairly easy to land. Although he's often best not using it often as it's also his escape.

TF's is an AA.

While you can usually easily land Veiger stun if you know the boarder. If they take a step in the wrong direction as you cast it you will lose that CC. And likely wont land your E.

His is also a longer cooldown than most. He is also generally weaker in lane than most. Incredibly easy to gank if his stun is down.

If you use your Q to pop BV. That's damage you're down. If you got that close to begin with you're at risk of their CC and burst. And your ult wont matter as much if you're facing an AD.

It's not a free win. His stun is powerful because it is everything to him while lanning. If it is down, he can easily be ganked and killed.

Trundle is meant to be the anti-super tank. The tankier you are, the stronger his ulti. Otherwise his kit relies on basic attacks. He doesn't really have much damage from other places other than his Q. Which is an enhanced basic attack.

Cloud2731 votes

{quoted}

Took that quite heavily. Responding first with calling him an idiot?

Syndra's is much easier to land.

Fiddle's is targeted.

Lissandra's is weaker only in range.

Annie is only weaker in that it requires her passive. Which she can harass with AA and hold her passive.

Ziggs is fairly easy to land. Although he's often best not using it often as it's also his escape.

TF's is an AA.

While you can usually easily land Veiger stun if you know the boarder. If they take a step in the wrong direction as you cast it you will lose that CC. And likely wont land your E.

His is also a longer cooldown than most. He is also generally weaker in lane than most. Incredibly easy to gank if his stun is down.

If you use your Q to pop BV. That's damage you're down. If you got that close to begin with you're at risk of their CC and burst. And your ult wont matter as much if you're facing an AD.

It's not a free win. His stun is powerful because it is everything to him while lanning. If it is down, he can easily be ganked and killed.

Trundle is meant to be the anti-super tank. The tankier you are, the stronger his ulti. Otherwise his kit relies on basic attacks. He doesn't really have much damage from other places other than his Q. Which is an enhanced basic attack.

Oh wow. Veigar is easy to gank if his stun is down. So in other words you can only gank retarded Veigars? So bronze V veigars are possible to gank, but everywhere else it's impossible. And he still has more utility and burst than any other AP in this game. And this is about more than just his CC, but you're too stupid to realize this.

Cindikle2 votes

How so?

J4's on his way. He throws his EQ. Which BTW is not stopped unless you displace him. While he gets stunned, you will also get knocked up. You're not exactly ranking your stun first in most cases. So it's likely you wont get way.

Lee Sin will ward hop behind you after the stun has ended and ult you where he wants you to go.

You wont see a stealth jungler coming.

While you're focusing all this on stunning the jungler. The mid laner is coming to land their CC on you. If you get to walk away, you're down that stun for 20 seconds. Any jungler can easily camp you for 20 seconds. You're not getting farm. Between these ganks you're taking poke. Veiger's poke is not as easy to land as others. By the time a jungler gets to ganking you. You're probably already half health.

Playing Veiger brings a lot of risk.

Cloud2731 votes

{quoted}

How so?

J4's on his way. He throws his EQ. Which BTW is not stopped unless you displace him. While he gets stunned, you will also get knocked up. You're not exactly ranking your stun first in most cases. So it's likely you wont get way.

Lee Sin will ward hop behind you after the stun has ended and ult you where he wants you to go.

You wont see a stealth jungler coming.

While you're focusing all this on stunning the jungler. The mid laner is coming to land their CC on you. If you get to walk away, you're down that stun for 20 seconds. Any jungler can easily camp you for 20 seconds. You're not getting farm. Between these ganks you're taking poke. Veiger's poke is not as easy to land as others. By the time a jungler gets to ganking you. You're probably already half health.

Playing Veiger brings a lot of risk.

So basically he has the same problems as ALL AP mids? You're not exactly proving your point. I've given evidence in the OP and all my responses, but I fail to see any relevant counter arguments from you. And you're so dumb you can't even spell your freelo (made up words don't count) champ correctly.

Cindikle1 votes

Other mids will have their CC back in time to counter a tank. Other mids will be able to harass far more effectively Other mids will have escapes that don't require their CC Some mids can do 2-3 of these things.

Also I don't play the champ.

The point you can't seem to grasp is that he is extremely gankable in lane compared to other champions because of his long CC and limited harass. He is built to have a very strong lategame but can be shut down early game fairly easily.

Magic pen(Brand, Zyra, Swain) AD champs(Zed, Talon, Jayce) Champs who build RoA and other HP items(Swain, Karthus, Anivia) Champs who build Abyssal and other MR items (Fiddle, Kass, Diana) Champs who will never be in range of your stun to begin with while killing you (Lux, Xerath, Ziggs) Champs who will kill you before you can even pop their BV to stun them (Akali, Fizz, Talon)

AP isn't a requirement.

Also Morgana mid is a thing.

A post a little further down after "Owl Or Nothing". These are counters to Veigar. They're not hard to find counters.

In fact, I doubt there are more than 5 champions that Veigar counters in the mid lane. If there are any, they are melee. Maybe Akali and Kass pre-6. BTW. Kass isn't a heavy AP builder. And he's likely to get a BV at some point.

Veigar is for the most part balanced. You wont see him shaking up the LCS. And if he does well ever, it's because the team was built around him.

Jubbinaut2 votes

Oh. I'm sorry, I thought this was a discussion about Veigar's strengths, and how they compare.

Obviously I was mistaken.

Please, tell me more about how it's so much easier to hit Veigar's stun than it is to auto-attack.

Meep Man3 votes
  1. Trundle

Trundle has no range and hardly any crowd control. He has a short knockup and an AoE slow that deals no damage. That is it. Trundle is all damage and that's what should happen. If you try and kill Trundle then you best do it from a range because he also has no range. He has a movement speed buff and slow, but they are both contained to an area. Trundle can wreck a tower because it can't move, but once the target can move, like Mordekaiser, Trundle can't do an incredible much to stop them from getting away.

  1. Veigar

He is squishy. He is as squishy as can be. He has decent armor, but no health to benefit it. If the enemy team has Veigar, you rush him and he dies. What crowd control he does have can be unreliable and does no damage. He deals enough damage, yes, but thats just it. Build MR, manage how much AP you have, Veigar is dead. If you are an ADC, just tell your team to peel for you and flash away if Veigar gets close.

{quoted}

No you're still an idiot. Because the hit boxes on other stuns isn't as large as Veigar's. His cc is 10 times easier to hit than anyone else's.

If you think so, play Veigar yourself. You will find it much harder to hit than you expect. Also, Veigar's stun is useless at Level 1. CONGRATS! You stunned them. Now get to basic attack as a Mage. Seriously?

Cloud2731 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tFxAwG3E,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-01-04T22:56:04.688+0000)

  1. Trundle

Trundle has no range and hardly any crowd control. He has a short knockup and an AoE slow that deals no damage. That is it. Trundle is all damage and that's what should happen. If you try and kill Trundle then you best do it from a range because he also has no range. He has a movement speed buff and slow, but they are both contained to an area. Trundle can wreck a tower because it can't move, but once the target can move, like Mordekaiser, Trundle can't do an incredible much to stop them from getting away.

  1. Veigar

He is squishy. He is as squishy as can be. He has decent armor, but no health to benefit it. If the enemy team has Veigar, you rush him and he dies. What crowd control he does have can be unreliable and does no damage. He deals enough damage, yes, but thats just it. Build MR, manage how much AP you have, Veigar is dead. If you are an ADC, just tell your team to peel for you and flash away if Veigar gets close.

If you think so, play Veigar yourself. You will find it much harder to hit than you expect.

LOL

SouL1ess1 votes

best counterargument NA

Aurelius Maximus2 votes

we are complaining about trundle and veigar now?

Trundle is weak

Veigar is exactly where he is supposed to be.

Protip, buy wards and fight veigar in the jungle where he has no vision and kill him before he can do anything. Also maybe try rushing something other than straight AP against him.

Cloud2731 votes

[{quoted}](name=Owl Or Nothing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tFxAwG3E,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-01-04T22:48:40.265+0000)

we are complaining about trundle and veigar now?

Trundle is weak

Veigar is exactly where he is supposed to be.

Protip, buy wards and fight veigar in the jungle where he has no vision and kill him before he can do anything. Also maybe try rushing something other than straight AP against him.

Pro tip, NO ONE has vision in the jungle unless you ward, so your argument is irrelevant. Also, AP's need to buy AP in order to deal damage. That's kind of their thing. These champions have no counterplay and you know it.

Cindikle2 votes

Magic pen(Brand, Zyra, Swain) AD champs(Zed, Talon, Jayce) Champs who build RoA and other HP items(Swain, Karthus, Anivia) Champs who build Abyssal and other MR items (Fiddle, Kass, Diana) Champs who will never be in range of your stun to begin with while killing you (Lux, Xerath, Ziggs) Champs who will kill you before you can even pop their BV to stun them (Akali, Fizz, Talon)

AP isn't a requirement.

Also Morgana mid is a thing.

Aurelius Maximus1 votes

lol the fact that no one has vision in the jungle without wards is the point. Veigar has no defenses or mobility AND no way to check bushes so kill him while he facechecks

Also you don't need to build straight ap to do damage on like a bunch of ppl. Cindle k has a list down there i see

SeCKS Egai2 votes

{quoted}

Pro tip, NO ONE has vision in the jungle unless you ward, so your argument is irrelevant. Also, AP's need to buy AP in order to deal damage. That's kind of their thing. These champions have no counterplay and you know it.

Who are YOU to think you can give a "pro tip" if you are making the claim veigar has no counter-play. There's a reason assassins have been the dominate force mid lane.

You remind me of the guy who I dominated sometime in season 2 as a Veigar. It wasn't that I was good, it was just that he was so much worse. My stuns weren't on point, he'd just walk into it, and then complain complain complain. Instead of realizing what he was doing wrong, his natural instinct was to say it was unfair.

I wouldn't use Veigar in ranked because he's too easily countered by mobility, as in the majority of popular mid picks. On top of that his mana can easily become an issue, which is what usually kept him from being popular long before the mobility took over. Especially now with all the mana regen nerfs, it takes someone with a lack of game mechanics understanding to even complain about Veigar.

I mean, who grabs stun at level 1 on Veigar? It's pretty apparent you got rocked by a Veigar and instead of understanding why you've come to the forums to complain showing just how weak a player you are to anyone bothering to read.

Lastly, Trundle?! I don't think I've ever seen a complaint about Trundle that wasn't related to him being weak. I think you're the first person to ever think Trundle was OP.

XaviorZeroBlazer2 votes

I know this has been somewhat skipped over but Malzahar has 130% bonus damage on his ult and silence on his Q

7ha7guy7771 votes

i was about to mention Malz. glad i waited until i read through all the posts

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Trundle is retardedly easy to kite. Only time I've seen a Trundle dish out the pain is when the enemy team is idiotic enough to remain in his AoE buff while they fight him.

Lord Dusteon1 votes

For Veigar: His entire kit is based on nuking one target. His single target damage as such is extremely high; however, he pays for this by being extremely squishy, rather immobile (if his stun is down he has literally no escapes. If the person laning against Veigar isn't retarded they can harass him and force him to either use his stun or die), and has little contributions after his E and trying to delete someone.

Guess what? If you play vs Veigar, buy Mercury Tread's. Congratulations, you removed a large source of his damage (W) and can retaliate before he can back off. Otherwise, if he used his ult and you didn't die, go all in on him. All of his damage and cc is on a high cooldown, and his Q shouldn't do enough to kill you. If he just used his ult, his E is the ONLY contribution he has. Late game, buy a Banshee's Veil/Maw of Malmortius, or if a carry/AD assassin a Mercurial Scimitar.

Veigar is great at killing one target. He's useless past that though.

Bresn1 votes

His downfall is bursting champions so fast teamates doesn't have any kills.

This happened somewhere around late 2014 and we're getting instantly killed before even touching Vei because his team were "body blocking" but then we won anyway because the moment Vei died, his teamates had too little exp or items to fight.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

trundle isnt as problematic by himself as is his interaction with current state of the game

tankynes is already obsolete and trundle takes it to the next level

veigar is just old by design he is slow but hits hard

Meep Man1 votes

Guys, just don't respond. This guy isn't going to change his mind. We have made it obvious that majority of us disagree with his point and no more of this endless argument is needed.

SeCKS Egai1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tFxAwG3E,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-01-05T00:36:21.482+0000)

Guys, just don't respond. This guy isn't going to change his mind. We have made it obvious that majority of us disagree with his point and no more of this endless argument is needed.

I just think it's funny. I can't recall anyone ever actually posting a thread complaining about Veigar being too strong in 4+ seasons. Any thread I ever saw complaining about Trundle was about him being too weak. I mean Trundle was practically in Olaf territory before Olaf was there.

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