Hmm...I wasn't aware that a champion is able to leap on top of you and stun your whole team while in a "defensive" stance. Can someone explain to me why when Galio and Rammus use their defensive abilities they get slowed, but for some reason Jax gets zero ms reduction and is allowed to leap on top of me while in his "defensive" stance?
needHymn41 votesCuz how's he supposed to 1v5 your whole team if he can't leap around and deal tuns of damage while being unkillable? ;p
YOU NWAH30 votesLet's be honest, in most cases, Jax isn't landing five man stuns. He's jumping on one person and taking a lot of aggro for it, and he relies entirely on his kit to be able to survive that. Galio and Rammus don't rely entirely on their W to survive their jump-in's. They're inherently tanky and build tanky. They can afford to take the aggro. That's why they have a downside.
FutureTrunksOP5 votes[{quoted}](name=YOU NWAH,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOEvk31t,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-08-06T21:16:45.605+0000)
Let's be honest, in most cases, Jax isn't landing five man stuns. He's jumping on one person and taking a lot of aggro for it, and he relies entirely on his kit to be able to survive that. Galio and Rammus don't rely entirely on their W to survive their jump-in's. They're inherently tanky and build tanky. They can afford to take the aggro. That's why they have a downside.
but what about jax's ult that makes him more tanky than tanks?
but what about the fact he stacks health items?
"Galio and Rammus don't rely entirely on their W to survive their jump-in's." - Neither does Jax...
Kazekiba22 votesRammus gets more armor from his W than Jax ever will from his R, not to mention better uptime
FutureTrunksOP5 votesRammus gets more armor from his W than Jax ever will from his R, not to mention better uptime
jax gets both armor and magic resist from his ult though...
ModAcademy Kayn27 voteshttps://i.gyazo.com/d9a394942dcddfd58a040ae737c0448f.png
The fact you got two upvotes for being misinformed is pretty average for the boards honestly.
FutureTrunksOP5 votes[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOEvk31t,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-07T01:30:56.571+0000)
https://i.gyazo.com/d9a394942dcddfd58a040ae737c0448f.png
The fact you got two upvotes for being misinformed is pretty average for the boards honestly.
I never said Rammus didn't though...
ModAcademy Kayn9 votesOkay, my bad. The way you worded it made it sound like you didn't know Rammus didn't, that's on me. That saidddd, Kazekiba's point is not invalidated because of "Jax also gets MR", because Rammus also still gets MR on his W, and his W is still going to have better uptime than Jax's.
Aletheiacracy3 votesHow do you underhandedly insult the community as a moderator?
ModAcademy Kayn17 votesWith love in my heart.
TheSingularity1 votesBut that armor is rather pointless past 100 while jax can get as close to that as possible while stacking hybrid dmg items
Worst JG Wins1 votes[{quoted}](name=YOU NWAH,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOEvk31t,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-08-06T21:16:45.605+0000)
Let's be honest, in most cases, Jax isn't landing five man stuns. He's jumping on one person and taking a lot of aggro for it, and he relies entirely on his kit to be able to survive that. Galio and Rammus don't rely entirely on their W to survive their jump-in's. They're inherently tanky and build tanky. They can afford to take the aggro. That's why they have a downside.
Rammus is more inherently tanky then Jax?
2/3 a cloth armors worth base armor really worth more then the second Defensive CD Jax has in his R?
Durzaka1 votesuptime is important.
Rammus' uptime on his W makes him WAY more durable than the defenses from Jax's R.
Worst JG Wins1 votesuptime is important.
Rammus' uptime on his W makes him WAY more durable than the defenses from Jax's R.
Jax's R is on a 80 CD and last 8 Seconds which means it's up for every fight post lane phase. Rammus last 6 seconds and he isn't using it multiple times in fights. Jax R legit has much more uptime Rammus W on that's before we talk about the bullshit that is shojin 40% cdr counterstrike. Jax has much more tankiness built into his kit. Which is insane when you consider Jax is a split pushing duelist and Rammus is a Tank.
Baval10 votesim sorry, i dont understand, see its called a "defensive stance" and it makes him more defended, and doesnt do anything offensive at all until he leaves the defensive stance. Coincidentally, its not called "sluggish stance" so theres no inherent reason for it to slow him down.
You seem to be languishing under the idea that his defensive ability and other characters defensive abilities should be built the same, but that would be just silly since theyre entirely different characters with different balance points.
Cloud2737 votesim sorry, i dont understand, see its called a "defensive stance" and it makes him more defended, and doesnt do anything offensive at all until he leaves the defensive stance. Coincidentally, its not called "sluggish stance" so theres no inherent reason for it to slow him down.
You seem to be languishing under the idea that his defensive ability and other characters defensive abilities should be built the same, but that would be just silly since theyre entirely different characters with different balance points.
My point is why is Jax allowed to play offensively while using a defensive ability, when Galio and Rammus can't. I don't think it's fair that a tank has to suffer a 50% self slow (or whatever it is now), and Jax gets ZERO ms penalties and is allowed to jump on top of and stun you while using a defensive ability.
3TWarrior6 votesyou can fight defensively you know, such as taking cover behind something to fire a weapon, attacking your opponent to specifically make them less able to defend themselves, etc
in jax's case, he spins his lamp-post staff to deflect incoming attacks. If you have watched indiana jones, I assume you remember what happens when a spinning mass suddenly impacts a target
IP Masquerena3 votesThen don't allow him to AA during it.
If he spins his lamp in order to defend, he can't use the same lamp to attack you normally.
That's the main problem with Jax, you can't fight back, especially once he gets his spear.
3TWarrior1 votesdid you know that one of the greatest dangers of a shield (the equipment) is that it is a large blunt object? Even while simply holding it in front of you, you can charge into the opponent and smash your weight against the shield, likely stunning if not injuring your opponent
here's another thing, in traditional staff fighting, most weapons are nearly useless because you can disable your opponent while maintaining a distance. In Jax's case, he can spin a staff fast enough to stop even a bullet
this is all magic stuff, now imagine a staff (solid metal) being spun at hundreds of miles per hour (a kilometer is roughly 3/5 to 2/3 of a mile)
even an ordinary staff can still cause damage while defending, let alone "the grandmaster at arms" expertise with it
that's the beauty of magic when applied to physics and real examples. A rotating object is very stable, so if it is rotating fast enough, it creates a crushing impact and can continue rotating. In the case with a staff, it bludgeons the opponent and the spin is resumed
#now, as for fighting jax, you're not suposed to auto attack him...ever...unless he has already burned his counterstrike or you think you can use it to your advantage. Don't expect him NOT to use his counterstrike. It's an adaptive ability for offense or defense. You use abilities and defenses to your advantage. Jax has the means to engage, but he has no poke damage, little disengage, no healing or shield and he usually burns his defensive ability to engage his target. If he does not use counterstrike, either back away or use abilities as he is likely to trigger it when in range...
jax is a counter champ to auto-attack based champions...and some of those can even overload their way to victory. If you want to start early, pick something geared for survival or play defensively
Jax is a duelist...he wants you to fight him because it makes him stronger. Weaken him from a range if possible and disengage when he gets too close. Your own crowd control can help with this. Even a champion such as 
can blind him and make her retreat, but it is a losing matchup because quinn hates targets that can stick to her...
IP Masquerena1 votesThe point is not fighting him when it's down, that applies only early-mid game.
He's a hyper carry no matter how you look at it.
I know that he maxes E last, but let's look at it this way, it has an 8 sec cd when maxed, with 40% cdr, that's 3.2s shorter, meaning 4.8s, it lasts for 2, so that's a 2.8s downtime, assuming he doesn't have a spear.
Sometimes it can even be beneficial to max it early, especially after the CD buff for his Q that he will get (hint: his rank 1 Q will have the same CD as his current rank 3 Q)
So the question is: can you kill him in the <1s the ability is down or have enough spells that he doesn't block? Because if you don't (or they are dead from the 1st stun), you ain't killing him.
He invalidates too much and that thing can be up almost permanently.
Durzaka1 votesYoure assuming a lvl 18 Jax when looking at CD numbers.
There are plenty of people who could burst Jax down during the downtime of his stun by that point in the game. And earlier (AKA the vast majority of every game played) there is A LOT more room to play with.
IP Masquerena1 votesI did say a "not quite as there are times when maxing it second can be a good idea". How do you fight him then?
Prozzak2 votesThis is a very biased take. Jax has to use two moves to position well at all in order to be both offensive and defensive and it takes away his mobility for a time as well. Comparing a two move combo to one move is disingenuous at best.
Jamaree8 votesBecause they are vastly different champions who have literally nothing in common?
Cloud2732 votesBecause they are vastly different champions who have literally nothing in common?
Stop spreading these lies. They all have a defensive ability in their kits, so it's completely fair to compare them.
CytheGuy8 votesI sincerely hope you are being sarcastic.
"Hydrogen and Nitrogen are both gases so we can compare them fairly." One is extremely flamable/explosive, the other makes up most of our atmosphere. Switch their roles and we have a major problem, just like if you were to switch Jax's and Galio's/Rammus' purposes.
xxxryzetacion1 votesBecause they are vastly different champions who have literally nothing in common?
i like how you get downvoted then the dude right under you gets 20 upvotes LUL
Cloud2731 votesBecause they are vastly different champions who have literally nothing in common?
Let me rephrase. I AGREE WITH YOU that they are vastly different champions, but to say that have NOTHING in common is absolutely not true.
Jamaree1 votesLet me rephrase. I AGREE WITH YOU that they are vastly different champions, but to say that have NOTHING in common is absolutely not true.
Except it is true, the literal only thing Rammus and Jax have in common is that they perform a "defensive" stance and that is only in name, beyond that, there isn't a single other contributing factor to compare the two. They don't share the same class, same role, same playstyle, literally nothing else in common.
Cloud2731 votesExcept it is true, the literal only thing Rammus and Jax have in common is that they perform a "defensive" stance and that is only in name, beyond that, there isn't a single other contributing factor to compare the two. They don't share the same class, same role, same playstyle, literally nothing else in common.
You're being completely unreasonable and dishonest here. First you say they have "nothing" in common, and then you try to defend your statement by saying it's true (even though it's not). It doesn't matter how much they have in common. They have enough that's it's fair to make a comparison.
Jamaree1 votesYou're being completely unreasonable and dishonest here. First you say they have "nothing" in common, and then you try to defend your statement by saying it's true (even though it's not). It doesn't matter how much they have in common. They have enough that's it's fair to make a comparison.
No...no they don't. They don't share ANYTHING in common. They don't share the same primary role, they don't share the same play pattern, they don't share item pools, they don't share initiate, they don't share classes, they don't share movement options, the LITERAL only thing Jax and Rammus have in common at ALL is that they both have a defense tool in their kit and if we are going by that logic, then Jax is the same as Malphite because he has defense tools, or the same as Maokai, or Braum.
Kaioko7 votesBecause it's his only form of CC.
Kaioko20 votesAnd? What's your point?
Because you're comparing vastly different champions whose kits and roles are completely different. Would it made you feel better if we called the skill something else? Is that it?
Cloud2734 votesBecause you're comparing vastly different champions whose kits and roles are completely different. Would it made you feel better if we called the skill something else? Is that it?
WOW. Champions are different. In other news, the sky is blue. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. And no I'm not comparing their entire kits. I'm comparing defensive abilities.
ModAcademy Kayn15 votesDefensive abilities on two separate champion classes, who standards for design are different, who play different, and typically use their tools much differently.
Like you said, Champions are different. You can't compare abilities in a void, you need to take alongside kits, champion class, and design in consideration. It'd be like me comparing Janna's shield, to Yasuo's windwall, just because they're "Defensive abilities".
The Kombinator4 votesExcept that armor is worthless in the current state, but immunity to basic attacks is OP as hell against many champions.
Verxint7 votesAny time you compare individual abilities in a vacuum you prove nothing
Makarakarn6 votesBecause Jax is a damn grandmaster and doesn't need to slow down to parry all of your hits, that's why. Jokes aside, I think it's legitimately because of who Jax is. Jax is supposed to be a MASTER of weapons. Therefore, I doubt it would take a literal MASTER of weapons (and this is fiction so a master of weaponry in fiction is probably going to be much better and incomparable to a master of weaponry irl) would have any trouble deflecting melee hits at full speed.
Kanzler4 votesBecause that's a 10-year-old ability description.
Mokuto Bunshi1 votesThis
Daddy Ants4 votesBiggest gripe I have with Jax is..
If he spins his weapon during counter strike... why can he still auto attack?
PaladinNO3 votes"Jax enters a defensive stance"
https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma8za4bNyX1rdhs82o4_r1_250.gif https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma8za4bNyX1rdhs82o5_r1_250.gif https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma8za4bNyX1rdhs82o3_r1_500.gif
"The best defense is a good offense."
SEKAI2 votesYeah, people be arguing from semantics. Typical.
Nothing changes the fact that an ability intended to be used defensively should make way so that it is actually used defensively.
The rest is hogwash.
ModAcademy Kayn3 votesThe best defense is a strong offense tho
SEKAI4 votes[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOEvk31t,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-08-07T03:37:18.942+0000)
The best defense is a strong offense tho
That's not how design works.
By your logic, supports should 1shot everyone because "death is the best CC". Oh wait 
No one knows how to basic design it seems. This game is fucked.
ModAcademy Kayn6 votesNo one knows how to basic design it seems.
Boy I'm glad I don't live in a world where you design games, cause that'd one helluva boring world. I really can't understand the concept that the ability isn't a purely defensive ability is somehow against 'basic design'. Cause wow, I could've sworn how many times I've used my Sion shield to deal damage. And if you tell me that Sion's shield is intended to be able to function offensively, than I can tell you that Jax's Counterstrike was intended to be used offensively as it can be defensively.
Cause wow-wee, if you look at the game as a whole, a lot of the defensive moves can be used offensively, because they have offense in mind. Fiora can use hers to stun enemys if she blocks CC, an offensive trait to a defensive move. It's almost like Jax's counterstrike is not a solely defensive move, and it's intended to enable him to trade better, or survive. You're labeling it something it's not, and then complaining about it not being 'good design' based on your own misconceptions.
GinoSoldier2 votes[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOEvk31t,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-07T05:37:45.897+0000)
Boy I'm glad I don't live in a world where you design games, cause that'd one helluva boring world. I really can't understand the concept that the ability isn't a purely defensive ability is somehow against 'basic design'. Cause wow, I could've sworn how many times I've used my Sion shield to deal damage. And if you tell me that Sion's shield is intended to be able to function offensively, than I can tell you that Jax's Counterstrike was intended to be used offensively as it can be defensively.
Cause wow-wee, if you look at the game as a whole, a lot of the defensive moves can be used offensively, because they have offense in mind. Fiora can use hers to stun enemys if she blocks CC, an offensive trait to a defensive move. It's almost like Jax's counterstrike is not a solely defensive move, and it's intended to enable him to trade better, or survive. You're labeling it something it's not, and then complaining about it not being 'good design' based on your own misconceptions.
I feel like character design with intended balance should generally follow the idea that if someone has 100% of it's power invested in attack, then a defensive character should be something like 30/70% offense/defense, and the two should be able to match each other blow for blow, because defense blocks 70% of the opponent's 100% offense, leaving both at 30% offense. If that makes sense.
Of course there's a bajillion other factors to consider in here too like mobility, multi target abilities, ability uptime, strong early VS late, and such. But, gonna have to admit, there are no, or next to no tanks currently able to go blow for blow against pretty much any AD champions in 1v1's at equivalent gold.
GonahtanuGepardi2 votesthere are no, or next to no tanks currently able to go blow for blow against pretty much any AD champions in 1v1's at equivalent gold.
And they shouldn't. Tanks are utility champions that rely on their teammates to deal damage. They aren't designed to be 1v1 champions. A bruiser is supposed to beat a tank in 1v1 but the tank is supposed to be more useful in a team fight.
