Bruisers get too much in stats

The thigh guy·Jan 31, 2019·3 votes·1,541 views

Why is this stat line acceptable?

3500 hp 200 ad 200+armor 200+ magic resist 500+ movement speed at all times As 50-80 tenacity.

What the actual fuck? If we gave Adc even close to this stat line everyone would lose their shit.

And the good ol argument of “but bruisers are immobile” is made irrelevant by their insane stat line have some of the highest movement speed in the game. This is all assuming they didn’t get a riotous glory to run your ass down.

Cc doesn’t work because “Lul tenacity” Ima put this in perspective. Morgana’s dark bind is a 3 second root at rank 5.

This gets nuked down to .6 second bind. That’s a fucking interrupt at best. :/

30 Comments

RalanrJan 31, 20195 votes

Ok, normally I regret asking this but how the fuck are you getting 400 AD and over 200 in resistances without buffs like baron and infernal?

The thigh guyJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Ok, normally I regret asking this but how the fuck are you getting 400 AD and over 200 in resistances without buffs like baron and infernal?

Sorry. The 400 was suppose to be 200. Changing now.

Anime FizzJan 31, 20193 votes

By bruisers you mean just jax.

No other bruiser can get that much armor mr hp ad combination.

An 4 item (+ boots) lvl 18 irelia has on average (trinity steraks titanic GA) : 3100 health, 330 AD, 130 armor 80 MR.

The thigh guyJan 31, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Anime Fizz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEhU4IeE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-31T16:41:38.366+0000)

By bruisers you mean just jax.

No other bruiser can get that much armor mr hp ad combination.

An 4 item (+ boots) lvl 18 irelia has on average (trinity steraks titanic GA) : 3100 health, 330 AD, 130 armor 80 MR.

Most bruisers are insanely overtuned in raw stats.

heroikcJan 31, 20193 votes

Let's be fair; bruisers couldn't do much of their roles without such stats. True they tend to be overly meaty and can shrug off CC, but otherwise, CC and kiting is still the only counter against them. Most Bruisers also lack dashes and blinks, so they need means to move faster. So yeah, they are overtuned out of necessity...which is horribly tragic.

GigglesOJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Most Bruisers also lack dashes and blinks, so they need means to move faster.

Mordekaiser - 325 base movement speed awwwwww yeesssss

heroikcJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

- 325 base movement speed awwwwww yeesssss

At least Mordekaiser generally sucks; short range, health costs, easy to poke, easily outsustained by most champions, 0 mobility...

GigglesOJan 31, 20191 votes

? This wasn't a comment about mordes base stats. He actually has some of the shittiest bases in the game.

What that was a comment about is how not all champs get that move faster treatment.

heroikcJan 31, 20192 votes

{quoted}

? This wasn't a comment about mordes base stats. He actually has some of the shittiest bases in the game.

What that was a comment about is how not all champs get that move faster treatment.

item 3142 item 3800 item 3742 summoner 6 Garen item 3111 Shyvana Skarner Trundle Volibear Udyr Warwick Olaf Nocturne item 3044 Among other things; just because it's not on paper doesn't mean they have 0 access to it.

AlzonJan 31, 20191 votes

item 3095 item 3086 item 3087 item 3046 item 3139 item 3153 item 3094 summoner 7 Fleet Footwork

item 3907 item 2065 item 3100 summoner 6 Phase Rush

summoner 4

heroikcFeb 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Fleet Footwork

Phase Rush

Touche, but I listed primarily AD bruiser primary items, likely/convenient spells, and abilities that increase MS.

The thigh guyJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Let's be fair; bruisers couldn't do much of their roles without such stats. True they tend to be overly meaty and can shrug off CC, but otherwise, CC and kiting is still the only counter against them. Most Bruisers also lack dashes and blinks, so they need means to move faster. So yeah, they are overtuned out of necessity...which is horribly tragic.

Issue being with black cleaver they are at a constant 500ms. So their immobility isn’t that weak. And a lot of them do have dashes. Kled, urgot, aatrox, renekton, Jax. And if they don’t have a dash they have a ms steroid. The only one who doesn’t is Darius (don’t get any idea rito).

heroikcJan 31, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEhU4IeE,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-01-31T17:26:14.282+0000)

Issue being with black cleaver they are at a constant 500ms. So their immobility isn’t that weak. And a lot of them do have dashes. Kled, urgot, aatrox, renekton, Jax. And if they don’t have a dash they have a ms steroid. The only one who doesn’t is Darius (don’t get any idea rito).

Aside from Urgot and Aatrox, the rest are divers (who need some level of mobility for the sake of engagement) except for Jax (who, if I recall, is a skirmisher with odd builds). Sounds like the only real problem is BC. Also, Darius does have pull and slow, so that may be why (fringely speaking) he has no innate ms booster.

The thigh guyJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Aside from Urgot and Aatrox, the rest are divers (who need some level of mobility for the sake of engagement) except for Jax (who, if I recall, is a skirmisher with odd builds). Sounds like the only real problem is BC. Also, Darius does have pull and slow, so that may be why (fringely speaking) he has no innate ms booster.

Divers are sub class of bruisers.

The issue is, being one hit by the tankiest member on the team, while not being able to do any significant damage to them isn’t particularly fair, especially when their two weaknesses (cc like everything else, and being kited) are almost irrelevant due to them having mobility or ms steroids build into their kits and attached to their items.

heroikcFeb 1, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEhU4IeE,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-31T21:58:12.560+0000)

Divers are sub class of bruisers.

The issue is, being one hit by the tankiest member on the team, while not being able to do any significant damage to them isn’t particularly fair, especially when their two weaknesses (cc like everything else, and being kited) are almost irrelevant due to them having mobility or ms steroids build into their kits and attached to their items.

Fighters. Subclass of fighters; they're more or less assassins with some durability and no escape. The issue, I believe is on those along the lines of Juggernauts; champs with limited mobility and burst but lots of sustain and durability.

And I am aware. But as I mentioned in an earlier post, it's difficult to balance them without the things that make them broken. Removing said items may require either people to try cheese builds or Riot overtuning them to compensate. Fighters are probably just broken out of necessity to be relevant per game. (Not saying it's excusable, mind you.)

woodvsmurphJan 31, 20192 votes

Most of the cc in the game is immune to tenacity these days.

Bruisers have less movespeed advantage in base form than in the past... favoring ranged champs more than in the past from level 1 on. And once adc's get crit... they literally can't be touched except via flash, ghost, active itemization, or a long cd gapcloser as in approx 8 sec or so barring essence reaver interaction to reduce the cd on said ability.

Adc's get 900+ damage aa's they can use from half a mile away or they have 2 sec cd dash like vayne along with more active items plus combat sums to let them kite or chase opponents as they please than any bruiser can reasonably throw into their kit. Again... further exacerbated by crit giving them higher in-combat movespeed.

Combo that with the fact adc's kill bruisers in about 6-7 aa's and bruisers ain't got time to focus down enemy frontline first... they gotta try to remove the adc from the game immediately or they'll just die w/o being able to make much use of their kit. Well if your gapcloser is on 8 sec cd and you need to use it to get on adc in first place so you can damage them before they kill you from half mile away with point n click or before they perma-dash aa, dash aa kite and kill you and you die to 6-7 aa's... you die in less time than it takes for your gapcloser to be back up. Which means either you're 1-shotting the adc or you are dead... 0 counterplay. Mid game is bruiser favored. Late game is adc favored. Most games end around mid or mid/late game so it seems like bruiser is just op. That plus crap like jax actually is op so it gives bruisers and fighters a bad rap that most don't deserve. So back to the point of this paragraph... due to problems mentioned above... bruisers (thanks to insane per-aa damage adc's have gotten and the uselessness of true defensive items) have been put in a situation where they HAVE TO build to 1-shot the adc. To do anything else is to pick an inferior version of a tank and basically be trolling... about as good as playing vayne in a lethality only adc meta where jhin and varus are the only real viable adc's.

You also fail to analyze anything adc's have in their favor while making false claims like higher movespeed for bruiser... which only applies until adc gets items. Then there's all the %hp damage of adc's. And the ones that don't have it get their 900 dmg aa's from half a mile away while having higher movespeed than the melee trying to catch them plus extra combat summoner in summoner 7 . And it doesn't stop there. There is also item 3124 to multiply damage for on-hit adc's like vayne and bork users. And the bonus damage they do to anyone with higher hp than them... which is pretty much everyone.

So your "bs tanky" bruisers are now taking closer to say... 1100 damage from a single aa (before resistances... which they basically can't bother building due to needing to 1-shot you and resistances being largely trash currently - 1 reason why sion and urgot are the only "tanks" being played top). Gee... imagine if bruisers got bonus damage multipliers on their aa's and abilities for every 0.1 attack speed advantage their opponent had over them... then adc's would complain about how unfair that is. See how freaking stupid and absurd that sounds? Yeah? I thought so. You are using that exact same logic as I use there (bruisers doing bonus damage based on opponent's attack speed advantage) when you complain about bruisers being too good while ignoring the bonus damage adc's get to anyone with higher hp than them (which further multiplies their already crazy-high dps from aa's and on-hit). I.E. adc's have so much shit going for them. If they want to greed and go full glass cannon, then they need to shut the hell up and stop whining when they die like they're full glass cannon.

I don't see adc's going and crying when a zed steps on cait trap and then loses to her in teamfight despite getting off his full combo after cc ends... before dying to one more aa from adc after his ult ends and cait lands her 5th aa on him. Adc's go... zed deserved to die there cuz he's squishy and he got cc'd for half a sec. Oh... really, so that's fair for zed to get killed 0 counterplay or from getting lulu polymorphed for half a sec when jumping adc from fog of war during teamfight even though he played shit as best as possibly minus eating a polymorph. But somehow when same thing happens to adc for being squishy and they get jumped on and cc'd for half a sec... shit's broken and adc needs buffs. Yeah... makes perfect sense lol. The hypocrisy and arrogance of adc's is beyond the ability of reasonable human beings to fathom.[zombie-brand-facepalm]

The thigh guyJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Most of the cc in the game is immune to tenacity these days.

Bruisers have less movespeed advantage in base form than in the past... favoring ranged champs more than in the past from level 1 on. And once adc's get crit... they literally can't be touched except via flash, ghost, active itemization, or a long cd gapcloser as in approx 8 sec or so barring essence reaver interaction to reduce the cd on said ability.

Adc's get 900+ damage aa's they can use from half a mile away or they have 2 sec cd dash like vayne along with more active items plus combat sums to let them kite or chase opponents as they please than any bruiser can reasonably throw into their kit. Again... further exacerbated by crit giving them higher in-combat movespeed.

Combo that with the fact adc's kill bruisers in about 6-7 aa's and bruisers ain't got time to focus down enemy frontline first... they gotta try to remove the adc from the game immediately or they'll just die w/o being able to make much use of their kit. Well if your gapcloser is on 8 sec cd and you need to use it to get on adc in first place so you can damage them before they kill you from half mile away with point n click or before they perma-dash aa, dash aa kite and kill you and you die to 6-7 aa's... you die in less time than it takes for your gapcloser to be back up. Which means either you're 1-shotting the adc or you are dead... 0 counterplay. Mid game is bruiser favored. Late game is adc favored. Most games end around mid or mid/late game so it seems like bruiser is just op. That plus crap like jax actually is op so it gives bruisers and fighters a bad rap that most don't deserve. So back to the point of this paragraph... due to problems mentioned above... bruisers (thanks to insane per-aa damage adc's have gotten and the uselessness of true defensive items) have been put in a situation where they HAVE TO build to 1-shot the adc. To do anything else is to pick an inferior version of a tank and basically be trolling... about as good as playing vayne in a lethality only adc meta where jhin and varus are the only real viable adc's.

You also fail to analyze anything adc's have in their favor while making false claims like higher movespeed for bruiser... which only applies until adc gets items. Then there's all the %hp damage of adc's. And the ones that don't have it get their 900 dmg aa's from half a mile away while having higher movespeed than the melee trying to catch them plus extra combat summoner in . And it doesn't stop there. There is also to multiply damage for on-hit adc's like vayne and bork users. And the bonus damage they do to anyone with higher hp than them... which is pretty much everyone.

So your "bs tanky" bruisers are now taking closer to say... 1100 damage from a single aa (before resistances... which they basically can't bother building due to needing to 1-shot you and resistances being largely trash currently - 1 reason why sion and urgot are the only "tanks" being played top). Gee... imagine if bruisers got bonus damage multipliers on their aa's and abilities for every 0.1 attack speed advantage their opponent had over them... then adc's would complain about how unfair that is. See how freaking stupid and absurd that sounds? Yeah? I thought so. You are using that exact same logic as I use there (bruisers doing bonus damage based on opponent's attack speed advantage) when you complain about bruisers being too good while ignoring the bonus damage adc's get to anyone with higher hp than them (which further multiplies their already crazy-high dps from aa's and on-hit). I.E. adc's have so much shit going for them. If they want to greed and go full glass cannon, then they need to shut the hell up and stop whining when they die like they're full glass cannon.

I don't see adc's going and crying when a zed steps on cait trap and then loses to her in teamfight despite getting off his full combo after cc ends... before dying to one more aa from adc after his ult ends and cait lands her 5th aa on him. Adc's go... zed deserved to die there cuz he's squishy and he got cc'd for half a sec. Oh... really, so that's fair for zed to get killed 0 counterplay or from getting lulu polymorphed for half a sec when jumping adc from fog of war during teamfight even though he played shit as best as possibly minus eating a polymorph. But somehow when same thing happens to adc for being squishy and they get jumped on and cc'd for half a sec... shit's broken and adc needs buffs. Yeah... makes perfect sense lol. The hypocrisy and arrogance of adc's is beyond the ability of reasonable human beings to fathom.[zombie-brand-facepalm]

This entire block of text is like your are comparing a full build 100% crit guinsuu Vayne to a 2 item urgot.

Make that a 2 item jinx vs a 2 item Kled. She dies. There’s absolutely nothing she can do about it, there is nothing her support can do about it. As soon as she places chompers to escape she is dead.

woodvsmurphFeb 1, 20191 votes

Oh I'm sorry... let's only look at one specific point in the game where my champ is weaker than yours and cry that therefore my champ needs buffs. Let's not look at every point before or after this where my champ obliterates your champ or nearly every single champ and say that... maybe it is balanced and I just have a different timing for my powerspikes.

Yes, that seems like a very reasonable approach.

I guess that means darius and anything that can beat him level 1 needs nerf and everyone else needs buff.

I guess that means we can look at 3+ items and go... adc is strongest champ in teamfight at this point so they need nerf and everything else needs buff.

I guess that means we can look at rageblade plus bork vayne and go... she 1v1's nearly anyone else in game so gut her and buff rest of champs.

Cuz looking at one instance rather than the whole power curve of a champ throughout the game and seeing how that power curve stacks up to another champ's power curve makes so much sense and won't lead to any form of bias.

Rock is the strongest because it beats scissors. No scissors is the strongest because it beats paper and paper beats rock even though you said rock is the strongest. No...

See how freaking stupid that sounds? If so, good. Then stop talking like that.

The thigh guyFeb 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Oh I'm sorry... let's only look at one specific point in the game where my champ is weaker than yours and cry that therefore my champ needs buffs. Let's not look at every point before or after this where my champ obliterates your champ or nearly every single champ and say that... maybe it is balanced and I just have a different timing for my powerspikes.

Yes, that seems like a very reasonable approach.

I guess that means darius and anything that can beat him level 1 needs nerf and everyone else needs buff.

I guess that means we can look at 3+ items and go... adc is strongest champ in teamfight at this point so they need nerf and everything else needs buff.

I guess that means we can look at rageblade plus bork vayne and go... she 1v1's nearly anyone else in game so gut her and buff rest of champs.

Cuz looking at one instance rather than the whole power curve of a champ throughout the game and seeing how that power curve stacks up to another champ's power curve makes so much sense and won't lead to any form of bias.

Rock is the strongest because it beats scissors. No scissors is the strongest because it beats paper and paper beats rock even though you said rock is the strongest. No...

See how freaking stupid that sounds? If so, good. Then stop talking like that.

Way to completely ignore the point and twist someone words to fit your narrative. You’ll make a great politician one day.

AlzonJan 31, 20191 votes

Ok. First of all, those stats don’t multiply each other, outside of HP x resistances. You’re comparing these champions at full build to marksmen, so let’s go there next. Crit, AS, and AD all multiply each other. That’s why crit items are less gold-efficient than most other items. One of Riot’s design philosophies for League is that offense will always outscale defense.

Now for Tenacity. Reducing a 3-second snare to 0.6 seconds requires 80% Tenacity, which cannot be attained by anyone not Garen or DrMundo without grabbing every single source of Tenacity available, some of which are situational (Unflinching, Sterak’s Fury). Most full-build bruisers with Elixir of Iron would have 61% Tenacity maximum at the start of a fight, meaning a 3-second snare would actually be about 1.2 seconds.

And this is WITHOUT factoring in how the movement portion of a displacement ability cannot be reduced by Tenacity, rendering the stat nearly useless versus them.

The thigh guyJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Ok. First of all, those stats don’t multiply each other, outside of HP x resistances. You’re comparing these champions at full build to marksmen, so let’s go there next. Crit, AS, and AD all multiply each other. That’s why crit items are less gold-efficient than most other items. One of Riot’s design philosophies for League is that offense will always outscale defense.

Now for Tenacity. Reducing a 3-second snare to 0.6 seconds requires 80% Tenacity, which cannot be attained by anyone not or without grabbing every single source of Tenacity available, some of which are situational (Unflinching, Sterak’s Fury). Most full-build bruisers with Elixir of Iron would have 61% Tenacity maximum at the start of a fight, meaning a 3-second snare would actually be about 1.2 seconds.

And this is WITHOUT factoring in how the movement portion of a displacement ability cannot be reduced by Tenacity, rendering the stat nearly useless versus them.

Let’s talk about crit. And how it takes over 10k gold to be effective. That’s why it’s allowed to stack that way. You have to invest 10000 gold into it for it to work well. For a bruiser to work well you invest eh, 6000 maybe 7000. That’s a 3k gold difference. That’s a 10 kill lead difference. And this all assumes the bruiser doesn’t get on this adc and instant kill them, because they couldn’t afford tank stats.

And what do you mean your stats don’t stack together you have an item, that converts max hp into extra damage, and a rune, that converts max hp into damage.

Doge2020Jan 31, 20191 votes

But with abilities, Bruisers can’t CC or lock anybody down at all.

They have these stats so they can fight people in melee range. ADC’s don’t have these stats because they have their range and kiting strategies to make up for the lower resistances, because you don’t really need a lot of resistances if you aren’t in range to get hit in the first place right? Bruisers need these stats because of how much punishment they receive from getting kited and in teamfights. Bruisers get this much stuff in stats because they have to take a lot more damage than the squishies. They are in the front line where they will get hit with attacks the most. The downside with having this much stats is almost no CC and no mobility abilities or they have very small dashes. The longest dash of a bruiser/juggernaut is Shyvana’s ult, but that is a one time use and she doesn’t have any other CC in her kit to pin down a target.

If you play Malzahar or WW you will easily be able to defend your ADC from a juggernaut or bruiser because tenacity doesn’t reduce suppressions.

The thigh guyJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

But with abilities, Bruisers can’t CC or lock anybody down at all.

They have these stats so they can fight people in melee range. ADC’s don’t have these stats because they have their range and kiting strategies to make up for the lower resistances, because you don’t really need a lot of resistances if you aren’t in range to get hit in the first place right? Bruisers need these stats because of how much punishment they receive from getting kited and in teamfights. Bruisers get this much stuff in stats because they have to take a lot more damage than the squishies. They are in the front line where they will get hit with attacks the most. The downside with having this much stats is almost no CC and no mobility abilities or they have very small dashes. The longest dash of a bruiser/juggernaut is Shyvana’s ult, but that is a one time use and she doesn’t have any other CC in her kit to pin down a target.

If you play Malzahar or WW you will easily be able to defend your ADC from a juggernaut or bruiser because tenacity doesn’t reduce suppressions.

99% slow isn’t cc? Also you don’t particularly need cc when you 100-0 someone in one rotation. Bruisers are LITTERALTY tanky assassins with ms steroids instead of dashes.

Critmaster GarenJan 31, 20191 votes

1.) adc are ranged and many of them mobile. of course id lose my shit if they had the same stats as my slow ass melee champions.

2.) 250 and even 300 ad on a bruiser doesnt create as much damage as the same ad on a marksman who multiplies that stat with critical strike chance and attack speed

some juggernauts base stats are still too low.

The thigh guyFeb 1, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEhU4IeE,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-01-31T22:35:18.962+0000)

1.) adc are ranged and many of them mobile. of course id lose my shit if they had the same stats as my slow ass melee champions.

2.) 250 and even 300 ad on a bruiser doesnt create as much damage as the same ad on a marksman who multiplies that stat with critical strike chance and attack speed

some juggernauts base stats are still too low.

Again. Adc is dumping over 10k gold in to multiply those stats. A bruiser is dumping significantly less gold to become useful. And 500+ ms is not what I’d consider slow. -.- da fuq are you playing constant Rammus?
Bruisers get 250 and 300 ad along with all those tanks stats and are one shitting squishies while running at Mach 5 and not being likable.

Juggernauts are the most cancer class in the game and all but scarner were a mistake and a half.

Critmaster GarenFeb 1, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEhU4IeE,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-02-01T00:34:28.342+0000)

Again. Adc is dumping over 10k gold in to multiply those stats. A bruiser is dumping significantly less gold to become useful. And 500+ ms is not what I’d consider slow. -.- da fuq are you playing constant Rammus?

Bruisers get 250 and 300 ad along with all those tanks stats and are one shitting squishies while running at Mach 5 and not being likable.

Juggernauts are the most cancer class in the game and all but scarner were a mistake and a half.

250 to 300 ad is a full build for a bruiser.

item 3078 item 3053 is 7k gold alone + the defensive items neccessary to support such a build.

infact, bruiser items are generally far more expensive than adc items.

item 3078 3700 gold item 3071 3000 gold item 3748 3500 gold item 3053 3200 gold item 3022 3100 gold

look at the cost for adc items

item 3031 3400 gold item 3046 2700 gold item 3085 item 3094 item 3087 2800 gold item 3036 2800 gold item 3153 3200 gold item 3026 2800 gold

looks to me like the bruiser core builds are more expensive than the adc core builds.

The thigh guyFeb 1, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEhU4IeE,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-02-01T00:50:24.589+0000)

250 to 300 ad is a full build for a bruiser.

is 7k gold alone + the defensive items neccessary to support such a build.

infact, bruiser items are generally far more expensive than adc items.

3700 gold 3000 gold 3500 gold 3200 gold 3100 gold

look at the cost for adc items

3400 gold 2700 gold 2800 gold 2800 gold 3200 gold 2800 gold

looks to me like the bruiser core builds are more expensive than the adc core builds.

If adc didn’t need 5 items to be useful maybe. A bruiser is online at 7k gold. A Adc is online at 10k gold.

Critmaster GarenFeb 1, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEhU4IeE,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-01T03:38:31.879+0000)

If adc didn’t need 5 items to be useful maybe. A bruiser is online at 7k gold. A Adc is online at 10k gold.

they dont. they need like 3 core items to be useful.

bruisers are with two items, but they dont scale as well.

The thigh guyFeb 1, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEhU4IeE,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-01T04:19:06.238+0000)

they dont. they need like 3 core items to be useful.

bruisers are with two items, but they dont scale as well.

Fine. Adc needs 3 items to be online. Stormrazor - 2900 Zeal item - 2900 Infinity edge - 3600 9400 gold

Bruisers need 2. Triforce or cleaver. I’ll say triforce for the sake of argument in your favor. 3800 (rounding) Steriks - 3200.
7000 gold.

Adc needs 2400 more gold than a bruiser to go even, maybe, if rngesus is on their side with the Crits. That is 120 cs That is 8 kills. That is 15 turret plates. Just to go even with a bruiser.

And sure, fine, they outscale, when they aren’t being instant killed by a bruiser that they couldn’t kill in the three autos they get for being ranged.

Soul DealerFeb 1, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEhU4IeE,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-01T04:40:36.925+0000)

Fine. Adc needs 3 items to be online. Stormrazor - 2900 Zeal item - 2900 Infinity edge - 3600 9400 gold

Bruisers need 2. Triforce or cleaver. I’ll say triforce for the sake of argument in your favor. 3800 (rounding) Steriks - 3200.
7000 gold.

Adc needs 2400 more gold than a bruiser to go even, maybe, if rngesus is on their side with the Crits. That is 120 cs That is 8 kills. That is 15 turret plates. Just to go even with a bruiser.

And sure, fine, they outscale, when they aren’t being instant killed by a bruiser that they couldn’t kill in the three autos they get for being ranged.

The only logical thing you said over this entire discussion is that juggernauts are a mistake. Bruisers are fine juggernauts are the issue. More specifically black cleaver is the problem