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Should Cho'Gath & Annie Be Re-Worked & Updated?

Best Ekko NA··8 votes·1,960 views

Right now Annie and Cho'Gath are seeing considerable play & bans and have decent win rates in high ELO.

Annie is sitting at 54.79% Win Rate being the 11th most banned champion and Cho'Gath at 49.98% Win Rate being ranked the 7th most banned champion as of the 5.13 patch.

Simply put, I feel these two champions have kits that are just too good compared to many other champions. I'm not complaining about counter play here, what I am complaining about is that they have far more than what they actually need as a champion. Cho'Gath and Annie are older champions designed when there were few champions around and neither of them have EVER seen any kind of update. With these two champions being so healthy, even contested, I feel that they are in desperate need of reworking. For further explanation, look at just how much these two champions do with just 4 abilities:

#Have Passives Which Allow Them Nearly infinite Lane Sustain:

Annie: Disintegrate - 2s cool down & no mana cost if it kills a target. Cho'Gath: Carnivore passive - Restore mana & hp when he kills a target.

#Have Low Cool Down AoE Crowd Controls:

Annie: Pyromania - 1.25 - 1.75s Stun every 4 spells. Cho'Gath: Rupture - 1 Second Knock-Up & 60% Slow, Feral Scream - 1.5 - 2.5s Silence.

#Scale Well And Do Very High Amounts Of Damage:

Annie: Q - 80% AP scaling, W 85% AP scaling, R 80% AP scaling. Cho'Gath: Q - 100% AP scaling, W 70% AP scaling, R TRUE DAMAGE scaling 70% AP.

#Have Tank Traits Built Into Their Kit:

Annie: Molten Shield - Annie Gains Armor and Magic Resist & BABY THORN MAIL. Cho'Gath: Feast - Cho'Gath gains up to 540 / 720 / 900 Health with 6 consumed enemies.

#Just When You Thought They Couldn't Possibly Do Anything Else:

Annie: Summon: Tibbers - Posses a controllable minion which can benefit from Molten Shield and applies a constant damage stronger than Sunfire Cape. Also has a separate auto attack and gains a massive movement speed boost (300) from Molten Shield. Did I mention Tibbers can be aimed anywhere, even where Annie can't see, and applies AoE Pyromania?

Cho'Gath: Vorpal Spikes - Cho'Gath shoots ranged (500) AoE magic damage when he auto attacks. Feast - Cho'Gath's attack range is increased by 23 / 37 / 50 with 6 consumed enemies. ( Vorpal Spikes - 523 / 537 / 550). Feast - 50% refunded cool down & mana if it kills a minion or monster.

Feast - TRUE damage applies 100% of Spell Vamp. Building Armor & Magic Resist does not reduce the damage taken from it.

Am I crazy or not? How does everyone else feel about how many things these two champions can do with only 4 abilities?

23 Comments

Lugg3 votes

Annie would be fine if they put a timer on how long she can hold onto her stun. That way she has to either keep casting spells and using mana to keep it up. This would lower her threat level early since she would have to manage her mana better.

People forget that Cho is basically unbeatable if your mobility is restricted at all. Pair him with an Anivia, Trundle, J4, Nunu, etc or fight in the Baron or Dragon pits and he is God like since you can't dodge his Q which means GG.

Best Ekko NA1 votes

{quoted}

Annie would be fine if they put a timer on how long she can hold onto her stun. That way she has to either keep casting spells and using mana to keep it up. This would lower her threat level early since she would have to manage her mana better.

People forget that Cho is basically unbeatable if your mobility is restricted at all. Pair him with an Anivia, Trundle, J4, Nunu, etc or fight in the Baron or Dragon pits and he is God like since you can't dodge his Q which means GG.

I like your idea, that's really smart. ^_^

TurboWet1 votes

I don't think this would work given annie will lose her stun if she keeps casting. Additionally, this could easily be remedied by using her e which doesn't have that high of a mana cost if I remember correctly. I don't think either of them need a rework considering they're easy to beat in lane if you know what you're doing. That and if they're such a problem for you, ban them. This is what bans are for. (Actually Cho might need a rework but Annie, not so much)

Lugg1 votes

The problem is that Annie doesn't need to cast anymore once her stun is up. It stays up forever till she uses it. This completely zones out anyone who would want to get in range to farm. That's the problem.

TurboWet1 votes

So then what about other champs that can zone such as azir? Or in the botlane blitzcrank's presence can be a passive zoning factor. And plenty of annie's do continue to cast even after they get their stun because of the difficulty of csing with her aa

Lugg1 votes

The only part of Azir that needs fixed (IMHO) is that he can zone you under your own tower. Blitz is easily counterplayed by staying behind minions.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

My main issue is how higher is range is, on top of how his ultimate isn't an execute. An execute shouldn't be something that can chunk me for over half of my health unless I'm going tanky.

Lugg1 votes

I don't have a problem with any of the abilities themselves. It's the fact that they put them all on one champion. Top to bottom, he has the most stacked kit in the game. It doesn't matter that he has low mobility, anywhere he goes there is a zone of death if you get too close.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

I can agree with that. His ultimate alone isn't that big of a deal, but how well his kit synergizes with itself is ridiculous. If you get knocked-up, you'll get silenced, slowed, and ate. As he eats stuff he also gets considerably stronger.

Basically you kill stuff, get fed (literally), and become impossible to kill. And the thing is, his kit revolves around killing people very easily since he can just hold one person or even an entire team in place with his easy-to-hit CC and whoever he ults is just guranteed to die, considering his ult alone can't one-shot people, or at least I've never seen it.

By the way, his passive is stupid too. It's so hard to poke him down. I've actually played Caitlyn Top just because it was a Normal and I like off-meta picks, so I thought that it would be really easy to poke him down. I was wrong. Not only did he basically outrange me aside from my ultimate, as CAITLYN, but he also got most of his health back from simply farming due to his passive, not to mention he also regens the health like every other champion in the game, and also while killing minions there is a mastery that gives you more health back for doing it. The mastery and base health regen alone isn't that frightening at all, but his passive on top of it just makes it feel like he's immortal and has a level 1 Bloodthirster and Will of the Ancients.

"if i can't have mobility, then no one else will either." -Chogath

Lugg1 votes

I totally agree on the passive, it's insane OP. Cho literally only has to leave lane to buy stuff. That's it.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

I think most people don't even realize his passive though, which is the sad part.

Poke champions? Nope.

He has very little counters because of his entire kit and it's just stupid, the passive just lessens his counters.

Krfin1 votes

{quoted}

Annie would be fine if they put a timer on how long she can hold onto her stun. That way she has to either keep casting spells and using mana to keep it up. This would lower her threat level early since she would have to manage her mana better.

People forget that Cho is basically unbeatable if your mobility is restricted at all. Pair him with an Anivia, Trundle, J4, Nunu, etc or fight in the Baron or Dragon pits and he is God like since you can't dodge his Q which means GG.

i don't think that would work, if she stays at 3 stacks, she can e r/q/w and stun. I think her passive should slowly degrade

AmazingBeaver1 votes

Cho is fkn machine man xD Just e auto q auto and r and its a gg xD

Sakura Mirage1 votes

Wait since when does cho have low cool downs

Best Ekko NA2 votes

{quoted}

Wait since when does cho have low cool downs

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Cho'Gath

Cho'Gath's Rupture has a 9 second cool down, Nami essentially has a very similar ability on her Q, Aqua Prison. When you compare the two, Cho'Gath's Rupture has more damage, a larger radius, a shorter cool down, AND his knock-up even slows. Another thing to note is that you CANNOT cleanse or QSS Cho'Gath's rupture but you can QSS Nami's Aqua Prison. I hope this helps you understand a little better when I say that his Crowd Control abilities are low cool down. Not only is his ability MUCH more powerful than other champions with similar ones but his rupture is also on a much shorter cool down as well.

EDIT:

Also to go on further, compare champions with similar ultimate abilities.

Garen:

Demacian Justice Range: 400 Cool Down: 120 / 100 / 80 Magic Damage: 175 / 350 / 525 (+ 28.57 / 33.33 / 40% of target's missing health)

Darius:

Noxian Guillotine Range: 460 Cool Down: 120 / 100 / 80 True Damage: 160 / 250 / 340 (+ 75% bonus AD)

Cho'Gath:

Feast Range: 175 Cool Down: 80 True Damage: 300 / 475 / 650 (+ 70% AP)

As you can see, Cho's Feast has slightly less range but max ranked cool down compared to Garen & Darius as well as a massive amount more damage.

Not only that, but he can use it on Minions and Monsters like Nunu and it halves the mana cost and cool down when used on them. Cho'Gath has the best of every world, he's Nunu, Darius, and Garen.. he even out supports the supports with his utility and lower cool downs.

TTUPhoenix1 votes

Have you ever played Cho?

Darlantan121 votes

Cho'gath need VU only.

Kýun1 votes

Well Since I play Annie A LOT!... I would say she would need to be reworked. Generally in some games i can get tibbers to 5 to 15 Cooldown which does a chunk damage and then q and w = enemy hopefully dead. I would say try to make her q a skillshot instead of it always hitting the enemy. I would also like to add to decrease the range of tibbers >.< You can ult right on the edge which is kinda broken ;/.

Teridax681 votes

Regarding Annie, I think her Disintegrate minigame is fine, and forces her to cycle through her stun in order to farm. What I don't like about her, however, is her ability to keep her stun permanently up, which gives her way too much passive zoning power. I dislike her E, which I think has no place in her kit, and I dislike her on-demand point-and-click burst when she could focus a lot more on her CC and Tibbers micromanagement. She has a huge dependency on Flash, which limits her on-demand kill potential, but I feel that's terrible for both Annie and her opponents, since it means Annie pretty much gets a guaranteed kill with little to no counterplay every 5 minutes, but cannot function properly the rest of the time. I would rather Annie had the opportunity to work decently without Flash, even if she'd still be dependent on it, but would also have more meaningful counterplay than "don't ever get close to her when she's fed".

I think Chogath's kit is mostly fine: his Q is crazy powerful, but it's also massively telegraphed, which is expecially relevant when there are so many mobile champions nowadays. His W is... not too interesting, and could probably use an update, but it's otherwise not the worst, and I feel his ult true damage is acceptable, considering he's a slow melee champion with no inbuilt mobility. His E is also fine, since it encourages him to fight for more extended periods of time. I dislike his passive, though, since it makes laning against him super-stagnant: his ability to just get tankier and tankier while also regenerating all of his resources means it's pretty much impossible to shove him out of lane, but also increasingly difficult to take him head-on, and he gets all of this power just by playing passively. I feel reducing his mana costs, but giving him a different passive, and having him only enlarge himself when taking down champions and epic monsters with Feast (though perhaps with compensatory buffs, such as removing the loss of stacks upon death), would allow him to be powerful in a way that would encourage him to be more active.

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

Annie yes, Cho no. Of course I'm a Cho player, so I'm biased:

Annie needs to have some sort of cast time for her ult. Combined with her stun, she can remove multiple people at once simply because she presses R, and I feel that's unfair. Her stun also needs a better visual effect, similar to Ryze's new passive.

I agree that Cho's Q and W are both very strong skills, but you need to remember that his E is just another passive. Yeah it's a toggle, but there's no reason to turn it off. Therefore, having a strong QW makes sense for Cho.

And lol, I don't think you understand Cho's cooldowns; he has a base 9 second on Rupture and what, like 10 on Feral Scream? Actually just checked the wiki, it's 13 seconds. Even if you DO get hit by his QW combo, there's still a large chunk of time that you can go back in and BEAT HIS FACE IN.

StickyStallion1 votes

ur view points are extremely bias, u have to look at the negatives of the champ, every champ has pro's and cons. Annie is squishy short range, cho has big cooldowns and all his stuff is very predictable/dodge able

Anonagon1 votes

Cho's problems don't really come from design, its just that his numbers are overtuned and the archaic code behind his W make it essentially a targeted spell, meaning he nukes you for base + 70% AP, kills all minions nearby you (healing for a shitton from his passive), and silences you making it so you can't fight back - with its current mechanics and numbers, Cho's W when maxed first is basically a free won trade every time its up

Annie needs a complete rework though. She's braindead easy to faceroll with, and her damage is too high even when building relatively beefy (the Rod of Ages rush build)

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