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This thread doesn't make the cut for Gameplay + lol

Illabethe··2 votes·1,286 views

I wrote a topic on Gameplay Plus. I'm lmfao.

Here's the post:

> Hi Riot/Readers. I've made several posts about this topic over time, and I think it's probably one of the most important points in the game, if we ever want to "balance" the game or encourage good playmanship. > > I've been playing since Season 4, or a little bit before. I have over 10,000 games played. > > What I came to realize about 2 years ago is this: > > The death timer length being correlated with Player Level is NOT working. It's a major part of why some champs are reaching 30% or better ban rates, because some actually abuse it VERY well while other champs do not and are incapable of it. > > I think everyone knows why we hate Yasuo . However, he often dies, no? He's usually one of the highest deaths per team. Yet..... at the same time, he's also the highest CS, the highest damage, and one of the biggest push deniers in the game. > > So why is it that Yasuo is allowed to die a lot, yet also comes out with superior stats? It's his E. Being able to cross large spaces and kill an entire wave at the same time as killing a champ or two, gives him more mobility than most champs, costs no resources, and usually hits its major power spike earlier than other champions do, being that his is at 2 item dominance, whereas most champions are spiked at 3 items. > > So..... we have to assume..... that Yasuo is somehow broken. But what is the fix? Less damage/utility to his kit? Or...... > > What if Yasuo was affected by some penalty to his death timer for playing recklessly? > > What if instead of a fixed 32.5 Second death timer at level 10, the death timer was actually 27.5 + 2.5 seconds per 2 deaths per 5 minutes of the game? > > Suppost by level 10, Yasuo has died 6 times. Level 10 is about at 15 minutes, so that would be a death timer of 27.5 + 2.5(6/2)(15/5) = 36.5 Second resses at level 10. > > In this situation, he would have to wait to ress another 4 seconds than normal at that point in the game. > > Suppose a Scenario of level 18 Yasuo at 30 minutes with 11 deaths. > > Current System: 52.5 Seconds. > My system: (Suppose similar scaling of base, diminishing based on low deaths) > 44.5 seconds + 2.5(11/2)(30/5) = 56 seconds > > And ofc, these numbers would still be affected by the Minutes passed penalty, but since the BASE Death timer would vary, irresponsible players would be penalized more than their teammates, while responsible players would be REWARDED for being responsible, with lower timers than currently exist. > > Ie...... the good player may very well have just a ~ 48 second death timer at level 18 at 30 minutes...... while the irresponsible player may very well have over a 62-63 timer at 30 minutes. > > (If I lost you there, here's what I mean: There are 2 parts to the current death timer: per level, and by minutes passed. There is a small penalty to the death timer per 30 seconds passed after each 15 minute threshold of the game. But..... since it only scales off a fixed base death timer, it treats feeders and low death players the same. Its only purpose is to ensure games come to an end) > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Here's how I'm arguing this would affect what we consider balance, and champions. > > Some champions like Yasuo which have high skill caps..... don't really need nerfs. They need to be out of commission longer after they die, so that teams who beat their mechanics can actually do something with that time. > > You notice how a 4/12 Yorick or Tryndamere or Nasus can still dominate a game's attention because they just slam turrets? There's no reward for shutting them down and stopping them, even as they chip away at turrets which can't regen (much). As soon as you kill them, they are right back for another round. Wouldn't it be more fair if a 4/12 Tryndamere was actually kept out of your hair a little longer so that you can deal with his team, rather than choosing between his team, and the impending teleport a little longer? He didn't earn that turret. He's been feeding the entire game to get that turret. How is that fair for champs that actually are doing well? > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Here's how I'm trying to illustrate this may improve the game overall: > > If players are aware that deaths put them out of sync with their team, especially early deaths which will be penalized more as the game goes on.... maybe they will actually exercise some courtesy and not go out and yolo those 0/5 scores pre level 6. Maybe they will wait or junglers, ward better, and have a major incentive to actually learn to kill without dying. > > In the right hands, it could be a tool to prevent snowballing as well, since a lot of snowballs occur because players are trading kills aggressively in one lane, while the other lanes are at a standstill (like a Talon lane trading 5/5 with the opposing mid. Talon would be out of the game slightly more than he used to, and so would the other mid, having an impact on how their gold and items affects the OTHER lanes, creating a small cushion for those other lanes to focus on other things than the fact their Mid traded 1500g to the other mid) > > In the wrong hands, I'm aware a 6/26 game might even snowball more. But the logic is that this would occur less frequently. > > But it's really annoying to be the 6/3/20 Ornn in a game with a 13/11/13 Yasuo and not being able to do a thing about it, because your own team (other than yourself) averages 9 deaths per person, and resses just as fast as the high death Yasuo. > > It's also annoying to put a Vayne down 0/10 and then see her climb back up to 17/11 because of her farm and game length. > > --------------------------------------------- > > I could illustrate this some more, but think about every champ we seem to find annoying, other than perhaps Garen . The rest.... tend to feed. A lot. And then they come back and destroy you because something about their late game gives them an absolute advantage. > > Jinx Vayne Yasuo Tryndamere Riven Singed Sion Quinn MasterYi Nasus Kindred Jax Darius Diana Ekko ....... > > They all have high death counts, yet are the champs we end up banning..... complaining about..... urging for nerfs. But..... if their respawn time was a little longer, they probably wouldn't even need nerfs.

So...... here's what Board members said (and I'd love clarity as to how any of what they said is actually accurate).

The moderation team holds the Gameplay+ sub-board to stricter posting guidelines than most other sub-boards; and unfortunately, we felt as though your post did not meet these guidelines. While we didn't approve your thread at this time, we still encourage you to either refine your thread; alternatively, the Gameplay sub-board is still a great place to post gameplay discussions.

Your post contains too many "things everyone knows" without anything to back those assertions.

Okay. Here's my counter to that last line:

  1. I don't know too many players who actually know how death timers work, nor do they find wiki walks on the subject easy to understand. "Things everyone knows?"

  2. I may be citing common examples to demonstrate a problem with death timers, but nothing I said is champions exclusive. So ..... I'd really love to know what they expect me to back my assertions with. Are they expecting me to do the work, and run multi-threaded regressions and formulate logarithms the board devs themselves don't understand with some "n" sample size and an R^2 of that is .75-.98 and test for heteroscedacity and autocorrelation..... do a whole college paper on the topic?

https://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.minionsKilled&order=descend

Maybe they're asking for this to prove Yasuo has one of the highest CS rates in the game ( # 5 and most of the top csers are within 10 cs of each other), or that he's # 5 in deaths per game on average (Along with some of the other champs I mentioned), even though that has nothing to do with the point?

Maybe they're asking me to prove that Spam dying isn't toxic, hated by most of the community, and generally a major source of improper learning curves? Maybe they LIKE their entire community being SIlver/Bronze?

Maybe they are asking me to prove an unproveable? Like that scaling death timers would rehabilitate bad actors?

I'm a student of Game Theory, but I can't calculate numbers that don't exist on a decision tree payouts, or find a Nash Equilibrium I'm not informed of the numbers to compare...... No one can.

Bottom Line: I know my post is Much more nuanced and thought out that subjects that have been approved. In my mind, I met all the requirements of the category.

I'd love to know YOUR opinion (of either the rejection, or the topic)

13 Comments

ModUlanopo5 votes

I think it's probably one of the most important points in the game

Unnecessary. In rhetoric, this is sometimes referred to as "priming the pump", as you tell people what's significant without establishing it first.

I've been playing since Season 4, or a little bit before. I have over 10,000 games played.

Appeal to authority. Your argument should stand on its own.

I think everyone knows why we hate [Yasuo]

Assumes facts not in evidence. Assumes arguments not yet made. Assumes those arguments have been accepted as sound and as relevant to the larger point.

So..... we have to assume..... that Yasuo is somehow broken.

Conclusion not supported by previous argument. A number of items can and do contribute to Yasuo's strength: mobility, ability to trade, not having to manage a resource like Mana or Energy, the front-loading of damage on popular AD items, and so on.

Some champions like Yasuo which have high skill caps..... don't really need nerfs.

Unsupported. You have failed to establish a link between skill cap and strength.

You notice how a 4/12 [Yorick] or [Tryndamere] or [Nasus] can still dominate a game's attention because they just slam turrets? There's no reward for shutting them down and stopping them, even as they chip away at turrets which can't regen (much).

Assumes there is no opportunity cost to split-pushing.

If players are aware that deaths put them out of sync with their team, especially early deaths which will be penalized more as the game goes on.... maybe they will actually exercise some courtesy and not go out and yolo those 0/5 scores pre level 6. Maybe they will wait or junglers, ward better, and have a major incentive to actually learn to kill without dying.

Assumes that length of death timer is more relevant as a consideration than simply dying. Also obliquely makes the argument that we should be incentivizing players to play more safely by punishing them more harshly when they lose, which is of highly questionable value and not addressed by your post (consider the situation in which a player has a really bad matchup. How would it feel to get snowballed harder?).

since a lot of snowballs occur because players are trading kills aggressively in one lane

Assumes facts not in evidence.

In the wrong hands, I'm aware a 6/26 game might even snowball more. But the logic is that this would occur less frequently.

Fails to address the feel of situations where it does happen. Aren't significantly longer death timers going to make the game more tedious at low skill levels?

I could illustrate this some more, but think about every champ we seem to find annoying, other than perhaps {Garen]. The rest.... tend to feed. A lot. And then they come back and destroy you because something about their late game gives them an absolute advantage.

Aren't comebacks supposed to be possible? Also, who is this "we" you're talking about?

In closing, if you don't understand our reasoning, please feel free to come to the Discord (link on the left in the sidebar).

Illabethe1 votes

Scary how quickly you found this :)

  1. I do think some of your comments are valid.

  2. I also think you are selecting comments out of context.

I'll submit that "Priming the Pump" is an unnecessary feature, but how exactly do you expect someone to NOT prime a pump, when trying to present an essay on a point? Almost every collegiate paper you will ever write introduces its topic with some form of priming a pump. That's how you grab a reader.

My intent was not to appeal to authority, but rather to express how I developed the observation.

Forgive me if I don't have express evidence of statistical hate toward Yasuo, beyond his ban rates, persistent forum rage being dominantly toward him (and Zoe), and pick rates. Maybe those globally accessible observations aren't enough to make the claim people hate Yasuo. Also, an example, not particularly a point.

Being "Broken" is the observation of the community, given high pick rates and ban rates. It's supported by the fact he is high positioned statistically in every major category relevant to winning. Again, I'm not trying to write a Thesis.

What link between skill caps and strength DO you need? I can't think of a high skill cap champion who doesn't perform statistically phenomenal among players who main them. If you're arguing the opposite could be true (that a champ can have a high skill cap but when mastered performs poorly), that would be indicative of a game imbalance needing rectified.

Split Pushing: I brought up Tryndamere specifically, because the opportunity cost of him split pushing is far lower than the reward for doing so. If he were to engage fights with his team, he has a very high chance of dying before doing something functional. If he is taking a turret in 6 hits, he's gaining both CS, objectives, and potentially adding minions to the arsenal of his team when he kills an inhibitor. His ult drastically reduces the risk of not accomplishing a goal. If a team decides to ignore him and take his team in a 5v4, Tryn can readily push 2 turrets in that time. If one of the opponents tries to stop Tryn from pushing, It's not guaranteed they can win 1v1, and even if they do, Tryn probably didn't die except versus a select few wall jumping champs. For the opportunity cost for Split pushing to be important, it has to exceed the benefits of doing so..

Next point: Goes back to the very reason I used Yasuo as a perfect example: He dies a lot, yet his mobility more than compensates any time spent dead, his lack of resource costs more than compensate any time spend dead, and his easy to apply aoe damage that 1 shots waves early game throughout the late game...... more than compensates any time spent dead. What other options than death timers do you actually have to compensate champions who by DESIGN do not have these options (like for example, Evelynn , who has no built in laning OR itemization options with which to compensate poor play in farming, mobility, or resource costs (She rarely has resource cost issues, so that is a weak point, but the other two are VERY valid).

Secondly, my suggestion actually didn't punish "losing" initially. It actually benefited losers..... up until the point where their Deaths have increased their resurrection timers to above nominal levels. It actually only punishes EXCESSIVE losing. And, what pray tell measures in the current incarnation of League..... has anything to offer "losers" anyways? True damage IE from snowballs benefits winners. Higher burst from more itemized Electrocutes benefits winners. Support item Quest Wards benefit winners. Gold rewards vastly benefit winners (especially since bounties were reworked to funnel gold to one person in most cases, and give assists almost no gold, unless the bounty on the target is over 3 straight kills....). Infernal Drakes benefit winners. Heralds benefit winners. Warding Benefits winners (who can kill more of the opponent wards, ward normally inaccessible paths, and have earlier and more aggressive options/gold to buy wards). I can't think of a single Season 8 System which "benefits losers."

When is getting a Baron or an Elder drake ever advantageously positioned for a loser? Only after they ace the opponents. In which many cases.... the opponents are up before the Baron or drake is even killed, and then is taken by the very opponent you JUST KILLED.

Next Point: How do you surmise I demonstrate that Snowballs are caused by trading? By somehow illustrating that 1:1 kills/deaths result in a continual reset of bounty gold to 300G, every time they trade? Something non trading lanes do NOT get? Something assisters don't get? Something that generally happens in continual sequences rather than actually in pauses and starts? And how, pray tell, do you illustrate that the encounters between a 4500G champ and a 6000G champ are dramatically stacked toward the 6000g champ in any capacity that would be allowable on the subforums?

Last point: Comebacks should be earned, not given. Jinx with item 3095 item 3085 item 3031 is NOT a skill mechanic. It's a "I outrange 70% of the entire game's skill arsenal with my auto attacks, deal full Crits, some converted to true damage, and continually gain a LOT of movement speed for doing so" mechanic. It's not complex or even strategic. That's what Jinx ALWAYS was, except she didn't get the item 3095 movement speed buff before. So you had a chance to run from it, and it didn't do True damage. So, it used to be possible for a tank to get near her and lock her down, and used to be able to run from. Neither is possible anymore.

Before she gets that item 3031 , Jinx can easily slump to 0/9, because she doesn't always get that move speed, and might have struggled to farm, or been ganked several times. But if the game lasts long enough for her to 3 item, the game changes drastically. That's not a comeback. That's items.

I'm all for comebacks, but unlike most players (I guess) my comebacks come in the form of NOT DYING, NOT FEEDING, and taking objectives, Farming, and Outplaying. And, comebacks are MUCH more likely if there isn't a 8-12k Gold disparity between the teams. (How often do you see LCS teams feed to the point where there is that kind of gold difference? It happens on a daily basis in Solo/Duo Queue).

"We" is a general consensus of what I see on Reddit and Forums and in game. Admittedly, that's not a scientifically accurate assessment, but it is informed. I wasn't aware that every aspect of every post was supposed to be scientific.

Edge of Daybreak4 votes

Well if you ignore all of the straight bs about yasuo increasing death timers as you die would just be a stronger snowball for the winning team. Like hell most of this thread is just complaining about yasuo.

Illabethe1 votes

Except that's NOT the long term result. The long term result is that yolo dies as a style of play and is replaced by cautious strategy.

dunder kill4 votes

Gonna be honest here just sounds like a really drawn out saltpost about Yasuo where you try to present stuff as fact with no actual evidence

Illabethe1 votes

Except it has nothing at all to do with Yasuo. it uses him as an example of a champ whose dies a lot, but still does the most damage, gets a ton of kills, and carries a game, even if he's feeding. There are a LOT more champs that do that than just Yasuo.

Rock MD3 votes

riggedy rekt

theChibiTina1 votes

I think you may be a bit confused. It's not a problem with the death timers. It's a problem with mobility and damage.

Illabethe1 votes

No. It's a problem caused by innate kits with mobility and damage. There's a difference. Some champions..... you can't actually adjust their mobility without an entire champion rework. Plus, they lose their identity. So you really can't solve the problem by virtue of just adjusting and tweaking those individual champ's numbers.

Let me ask you this. How many times have you killed a Jungler and Bot lane to stage a Drake, only to have that team actually right BACK at drake, right as you have your own bot and mid regrouping at drake, and have drake at 25% HP, only to have the drake stolen? You wiping out all contesters SHOULD have ensured you that drake. Instead, low death timers relative to clear speed enable the dead Jungler/Bot lane to come right back.

How many times have you Aced a team and had your team primed for a Baron, only to have 2-3 of the opposing team ressed and at Baron within 20% of baron being dead? Same principal.

Sometimes, that 4-5 seconds extra of a ress time would be invaluable. What really makes it annoying is, Resses generally all happen near the same time, so you are not only acing them, but they are restaged for the next fight with full HP/Mana at the same time. There are so many times where irregardless of how well your team is doing at trying to come back, You literally cannot take a turret, because the team you just aced, is back to defend it before you can even reach it.

Do you really think that champs running 15-17 deaths should have the same late game ress timer as someone who has 3? That's another important focus. The 15/17 death champ usually died a LOT early game, so it's worth pointing out..... a lot of those deaths occurred at 20-28 second ress timers, whereas the 3 death guy really hasn't been out of the game until once or twice LATE game, where he can no longer defend against an onslaught, but the one time he does die..... it's a minute long timer.

You can be 20/3/20 late game, and one death costs you the game. You can be 15/15 late game, and still WIN the game, sheerly because timers don't punish you more than the 20/3/20.

I can't tell you..... how many games..... I have been that 20/3/20..... only to lose because my TEAM, which generally has less deaths than the other team..... Aces late game due to all the penetration and pin point fights which last 3-5 seconds, and we suddenly can't defend because the other team got one lucky fight the ENTIRE GAME. That isn't skill or a deserved win. That's luck..... a roll of the dice.

More specifically: What if I DIDN'T die, as that 20/3/20, but my team did, but my team averages 3-4 deaths less than the other team? How is that fair to me, to have the other team kill our base in 40-50 seconds because my team who did relatively better than the other team, died, and left me alone to actually try to stop the end?

Have fun trying to stop an entire team push on Evelynn as 20/3/20 with the limitations of her kit. (can kill maybe one champ per 10 seconds while she waits on Demon Shade to move to the next target for that empowered E)

There is no reward at all in this game for being the persons who played responsibly. So why would anyone play responsibly? The answer is: They don't.

theChibiTina1 votes

The problem with having deaths give longer death timers is late game champs will become obsolete as they get steamrolled by the high damage early game champs that just burst them into nonexistence and then they have no comeback chance. The reason you stay dead longer if you're higher level means you're ahead and gives the enemy a hope of making a comeback. ADCs will be worthless as assassins roam down, delete them, and carry the game. Late game, immobile mages. Worthless. Anything that doesn't have an easy get away or snowballs damage wise early game will no longer have a place in this game. That's why death timers are based on level and not amount of deaths. For the opportunity that if you play your cards right and get a good team fight in then you can make a comeback. Also, Evelyn is an assassin. She's not supposed to be able to 1v5, but rather get picks on out of position squishies. Your best bet to try to keep them back from ending would be to try to wave clear and stay safe. If they're able to end in 1 minute they weren't that far behind and were pushed pretty close (if not into) your base anyway. I've never had it where we were able to end in under a minute after a good team fight unless we already had an inhib tower down at the very least.

Illabethe1 votes

I can literally play any champ and not feed, but contribute on par, even versus assassins on adcs. There is a safe play for every situation. Late game champs do NOT have to feed early. They CHOOSE to. In a hyper counter lane..... you can always grab a item 3096 and prevent a gold/lane shut out and conserve skills for whenever a dive is attempted. The option is ALWAYS there.

Lmfao btw. Listen to yourself: Assassin is supposed to have pauses in executions, "so try to wave clear." Whut? Evelynn is the weakest wave clearer in the game. You have to wait for E resets on wave clear too, or her Q has a 8 second cooldown. She is one of the worst wave clearers in game. So you are actually saying..... "Don't kill the champs and don't clear waves...... just accept the defeat."

If you've never cleared 2-3 towers in a 1 minute ress, you haven't played much, especially at high elos. It's EXTREMELY doable..... even without baron, on Sheen teams.

Sheen MAGES do over 980 damage per sheen proc to turrets. Sheen ADS' take about 1/4 of a Tower's HP per sheen proc. And there are a TON of Sheen users who also have damage enhancing skills like Garen Yorick who stack the damage done to a turret. Nasus can almost 1 hit a turret. If it's a 45 minute game, btw, you can easily press 5 turrets in 1 minute..... because everyone just chunks the crap out of turrets in a long game. And yeah. A good, mobile team can cross a map to do it too.

theChibiTina1 votes

Like I said, try. Yes Evelyn has terrible wave clear, but it's better than just going off and dying and throwing the game. As long as you live, you are a threat holding the enemy back. Also, if a game is 45 minutes long then it's an extremely close game and if they wipe the enemy then of course they are gonna win. Games rarely last that long anymore. It's hard to live as an immobile squishy early game when you can get turret dove at level 4 and they walk away like practically nothing happened. The only counter play to that is if you're a mage with reliable hard CC to hold them under the turret so they can be punished. ADCs will just die because most don't have reliable hard CC (and the ones that do it's usually their ult). I can picture rushing through the inhib and two nexus turrets, but definitely not a whole lane of turrets which like I said means they are pushed up to or into your base.

Illabethe1 votes

45 min isn't close at all if you have one hold out and 4 int feeders. I REGULARLY go over 40-50 minutes as the sole anchoring force.

@ getting dove: Don't get dove. Kill the waves as a squishy rather than last hitting, if that is a risk. Better to miss 2-3 cs out of 12 to save a full turret push and dive than have a wave of 10 minions PLUS 3 champs diving you. (You have no idea how many adcs I've seen wait to last hit even when they are 20-30% HP, have a doran's, need to recover, and let the wave crash down on them).

If you can't avoid getting dove; abandon the turret. Go somewhere else.

And no. You can literally take 2 lane turrets, a base turret and inhib, and 2 nexus turrets in a single push.... if your team is good enough. Sheen champs + a item 3512 and a Baron wave. You can literally Go baron.... go top or mid lane..... and push the entire lane before resses if that is your team.

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