(repost) Can we stop nerfing stuff like quinn and wukong and just remove duskblade

koshkyra·Jul 26, 2018·61 votes·14,479 views

(Last post was removed for 'low effort' even though i pretty much said everything i had to say.)

This item has been problematic since it was changed. It is giving assassins (and even some adcs) the ability to go 0/10 and then oneshot you anyway with this item. (Note: obvious exaggeration.)

Stop nerfing the symptoms (champions like quinn and wukong becoming broken) and nerf the actual disease itself (duskblade.)

51 Comments

Beatrice fallsJul 26, 201820 votes

Wanna bet ?

They'll first nerf both

Then nerf duskblade

Then buff them into oblivion where they can delete you from level 1

They nerf them into the gutter and pretend they don't exist

(and my posts also get removed for "Low quality content" when it's not the case, love these moderators)

Mèo Kêu MeowJul 27, 20181 votes

(and my posts also get removed for "Low quality content" when it's not the case, love these moderators)

You mean censors

TheCodeisCupCakeJul 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beatrice falls,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t9dlfzVI,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-07-26T21:09:53.148+0000)

Wanna bet ?

They'll first nerf both

Then nerf duskblade

Then buff them into oblivion where they can delete you from level 1

They nerf them into the gutter and pretend they don't exist

(and my posts also get removed for "Low quality content" when it's not the case, love these moderators)

What gutter? oh the one Azir is in?

Beatrice fallsJul 28, 20181 votes

Lmfao reminds me of a post I've seen a few months back about Azir and Mordekaiser it said something along "Any change to Azir or is basically writing something on the bug part of patch notes"

IllabetheJul 28, 20181 votes

THEY ALREADY NERFED DUSKBLADE. Look at the item's history for crying out loud. It's not why you are dying. It's the patch AFTER the Duskblade nerf, and the one after that.

(Ie when they nerfed Duskblade, they BUFFED certain assassins as "compensation."

Duskblade lost about half its damage.......

The HostJul 28, 20181 votes

Like my morde ;-;

Subject 5Jul 28, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beatrice falls,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t9dlfzVI,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-07-26T21:09:53.148+0000)

Wanna bet ?

They'll first nerf both

Then nerf duskblade

Then buff them into oblivion where they can delete you from level 1

They nerf them into the gutter and pretend they don't exist

(and my posts also get removed for "Low quality content" when it's not the case, love these moderators)

Kek

I got a comment removed once because I said, and I quote: "This board is super ultra-thin-skinned my guy. (As is most of the community.)

Via, warning a player to use /mute all because everybody in this game wishes death upon thee.

HayaishiJul 26, 201820 votes

Quinn needs counterplay and Wukong needs a rework, it's not only duskblade.

Daddy AntsJul 27, 20189 votes

{quoted}

Quinn needs counterplay and Wukong needs a rework, it's not only duskblade.

Why are people down voting this?

He's right...

Quinn needs some counter play.

There is no counter play to an Assassin like champion coming out of Fog of War at mach 3 speeds and 1 shotting you with e + right click.

ThefrostyvikingJul 27, 20188 votes

The counterplay to that is removing the ability to do so.

And since removing her mobility is a no-no since thats her niche then removing the stupid burst is the right choice, its even easy when its caused by items.

Even more so when she isnt the only champion having problems with burst becoming insanely high via items.

YumaS2AstralJul 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Why are people down voting this?

He's right...

Quinn needs some counter play.

There is no counter play to an Assassin like champion coming out of Fog of War at mach 3 speeds and 1 shotting you with e + right click.

Wukong needs a rework because he suffers from the same problem as Diana. Is meant to be a fighter/diver but lacks the sustained damage, and has really high ratios (AD in case of Wukong, AP in case of Diana). This means they both end up being "assassins" with even better burst damage than actual assassins, but without being able to escape like an actual assassin would. This create a binary gameplay in that they either dive the enemy and burst them down without counterplay, or they just die because they have been either sucessfully stopped in their tracks, or were behind.

Elkington VIJul 26, 201814 votes

I wish lethality would just be removed. It has done nothing to solve the problems caused by rushing armor pen, back when Brutalizer was still in the game.

oXtEBernieJul 27, 20181 votes

If that’s so than, they’d have to get rid of half the armor on items, mpen and crit stats as a whole. You want to tell me that adcs right now with 3 item 100% crit can do 2x dmg with right click ( which also does 2 hits per second let that sink in) is okay? Or the armor items that are twice more efficent? What would you like better a zed killing u in 3 sec champ that u can kill as fast as he kills you, or a 300 armor tank ,whose base damages are the highest in the game, champ that you do no dmg to?

Most dumb comment I have seen in the game. The real problem is the runes and masteries as a whole, they make some kits overpowered, and they add another 3 levels of problems when it comes to balance , imagine how easy it would be to balance the game if we had just nothing outside of the champs kit , all bout number tweaking 1 champ. However with rune reforged , some champs wnt from garbage to borderline overpowered, remember the first days of preseason? The Aery cd/dmg? A range champion could take 30% of your hp with just like 3-4 basics.

Just think how good the game would be if there wasnt that no skill free mega damage from some runes at items? Heres few examples: 1.Runes

Aery = Extra free damage every 5 sec wow fun
Conueror: Hit a minion, w8 3 sec , hit a champ, wew 20% free true dmg with 0 counters ( build hp and get fcked by blade , build armor get fcked by true damage????)
Electrocute = possibily the worst thing in the game , useless early , op mid to late, loke seriously it does 500 dmg on a full item mage/assasin/fighter like thats more than some ultimates
PTA = i hit 3 autos , WoW tons of free ad and dmg increase
comet = i hit you with a spell that slows well good now u eat the comet too that loses half the cd when it hits u
Grasp : low key i hit a cs , i w8 , i hit u i take your Hp while i heal????
aftershock : i get so much def stats at lvl 3 i can tank 8 turret shots oh yeah at the end , i do free damage
Scorch? i hit u with a spell woooewoew u got hit by scorch and comet which are back in like 15 sec like free 120 dmg followed by a ludens and woalah lvl 7-8 u have free 300 dmg on any mage with a slow root or stun???? List goes on i know what i want to say.

Items

Duskblade, Stormrazor, Lich Bane , Trinity Force, Gunblade and Gauntlet Whyyy so much free damage mon, why dont need this. Just remove unhealthy design, any champ with auto attack like spell ( Nasis Q , Ekko E, jax w, wukong q) does 2,3x the dmg its supposed to do like have u seen, Trinity Duskblade stormrazor wukong? Out of stealth dash they does tons of dmg followed by a 1500 basic crit.

TLDR: Remove free damage passives from runes and masteries and the unhealthy items. Balance the game from there

PS:If the champ is tanky and does tons of cc, like dont give him free base dmg... High Ar/Mr and High HP targets that are unkillable but so tons of damage are just stupid.

Oh and yeah Resolve tree, makes everybody unkillable legit.

Hong Kong AnnieJul 27, 20181 votes

This has to be one of the most unconstructive and poorly thought out post I have ever seen.

There is more lethality in the game now then there ever was armor pen. That's before mentioning that every armor item got stats removed at the se time they added lethality, in no word is armor more effective now than it was then.

That's just your first point and I'm not reading the rest because you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

IllabetheJul 28, 20181 votes

You do realize there are fundamentally TONS of ways to ignore Armor, but only 2 reliably built ways to reduce magic resist?

item 3147 item 3814 item 3031 item 3035 item 3036 item 3033 item 3134 item 3071 item 3142

Vs....

item 3165 item 3916 item 3135 .

I'm leaving item 3020 item 3091 because:

The shoes are unreliable versus the constant barrage of hard cc/need to reduce basic attack damage with item 3047 item 3111 .

item 3091 Doesn't actually favor the champs who need it. It's almost exclusively an adc/melee jungler item, NOT a mage item.

You can literally build so much Armor reduction/Penetration/Lethality that you can eliminate any possible tank scenario (for example, item 3071 item 3142 item 3147 item 3036 )

You can't even eliminate HALF of an AP tank's Resist.

BALDG1VEN BOOMERJul 26, 20187 votes

I’m down for removing Lethality as a whole, the mechanic has been controversial since it’s release.

Death by GlamourJul 26, 20186 votes

agreed, for one patch I would love to see it disabled just to see how it would effect the game

I would rather it gets removed than change crit, it takes us back to square one with MM hitting item spikes far to early in the game, combined with "assassins" doing obscene damage thanks to duskblade, gonna be a funny patch.,..

Zed geniusJul 26, 20184 votes

Removing it would kill every lethality champion. Now replacing it is another story

SithesisLordJul 27, 20187 votes

DFG got removed and Ahri didn´t hit release Syndra levels of winrate overnight.

Daddy AntsJul 27, 201812 votes

{quoted}

DFG got removed and Ahri didn´t hit release Syndra levels of winrate overnight.

DFG is a toxic item that should never return to the game.

Duskblade is a toxic item that should join DFG.

SensanatyJul 27, 20184 votes

tbh I'd be fine with deleting both Quinn and item 3147 at the same time

ThefrostyvikingJul 27, 20184 votes

Quinn and wukong are made broken by a combo of stuff rather than anything alone.

Duskblade, electrolute, stormrazor and whatnot, i find stormrazor in particular to be a source of all manners of problems.

IllabetheJul 28, 20181 votes

Quinn has been 60+% win rate since LONG before Season 8....

ThefrostyvikingJul 28, 20181 votes

60%? ._.

She doesnt even have that now!? She is currently at 54-55% for plat+, any higher and the sample size is too small.

And the only times when she reaches such a point is when there are items for her to increase her burst ridiculously with.

Like when lethality was released, she instantly spiked then, she also spiked with electrolutes release.

Or now ever since stormrazor, she has risen sharply and will most likely not fall unless hit heavily with nerfs.

I mean, she can just go lethality&electrolute as usual, into stormrazor, into static and her combo will deal a metric ton of extra damage for doing what she already does.

IllabetheJul 28, 20181 votes

Go look at her historicals in Season 7. She was 63% Top, 58% bot, with a tiny play rate. Top was like 1.37% and Bot was .68%

It has very little to do with itemization. It's always had to do with the fact she can proc 2-3 marks within reaching her target after her rework, before they can react and skill shot her mid flight (which some champs can't do) to prevent the Valor bomb and subsequent E.

ThefrostyvikingJul 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Go look at her historicals in Season 7. She was 63% Top, 58% bot, with a tiny play rate. Top was like 1.37% and Bot was .68%

Again, this was just after the lethality buffs which decisively made her and a number of others really damn OP, no bleeding wonder her winrate spiked so hard since she also had a small player base then.

It has very little to do with itemization. It's always had to do with the fact she can proc 2-3 marks within reaching her target after her rework, before they can react and skill shot her mid flight (which some champs can't do) to prevent the Valor bomb and subsequent E.

Except it has everything to do with itemization, and also a bit with runes.

Tell me honestly,do you think she could pump out anywhere near the damage she does now without duskblade+stormrazor+static proc'ing along with electrolute?

Remove those items and give her a normal AD build and sure she´ll be a pain in the ass to the average melee as usual but her burst will drop by like 30-50%.

IllabetheJul 28, 20181 votes

Lethality buff? what are you talking about? You mean in 7.14...... when they: Gained 3 Lethality but lost 20 out of combat move speed, lost 10-20 AD?

That was active for pretty much the ENTIRETY of Season 7, and is STILL active. Only for about 2 months did Lethality climb to 20.... right after Season 7 ended.

Yes. She can. Duskblade procs once..... and was extremely nerfed. Stormrazor just gives advantage to a one off 100% crit rate early which was available to almost every other incarnation of adc anyways.

Other keyrunes are actively more successful than Electrocute on her, even if Electrocute is widely picked (Fleet Footwork is still #1).

You're forgetting Season 7 had Thunderlord's Decree, which behaved exactly like Electrocute, and in Season 7, item 3087 did WAY more on hit damage than Duskblade.

And yes. Her Passive does more damage than either of them, or ANY of them. As it increases it can well get up over 250 damage per mark, and she can lay on 3 per encounter.

ThefrostyvikingJul 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Lethality buff? what are you talking about? You mean in 7.14...... when they: Gained 3 Lethality but lost 20 out of combat move speed, lost 10-20 AD?

That was active for pretty much the ENTIRETY of Season 7, and is STILL active. Only for about 2 months did Lethality climb to 20.... right after Season 7 ended.

My bad, it actually started in 6.22 when they reworked Duskblade, then it got a bit stronger when they changed the lethality lvl scaling but also buffed edge of nights active.

It was then ongoing with minor nerfs here and there until patch 7.5 when BOTRK was buffed, this added with the ardent censer buff of 7,2 was the start of the marksman meta as we know it in that season, then tanks got buffed and assassins went away and only hypercarries remained in botlane with ardent users.

Yes. She can. Duskblade procs once..... and was extremely nerfed. Stormrazor just gives advantage to a one off 100% crit rate early which was available to almost every other incarnation of adc anyways.

You clearly need to read up.

That 100% crit chance, even if reduced, is something incredible on Quinn.

The reason is that unlike many marksmen who need a constant stream of attacks Quinn actually already pauses between attacks to either move or cast abilites, she is most likely the most optimal user after Jhin.

So while others use it to poke or initiate, she uses it to 100% benefit.

Other keyrunes are actively more successful than Electrocute on her, even if Electrocute is widely picked (Fleet Footwork is still #1).

if talking pickrate vs winrate then phase rush is nr 1, fleet footwork has a measly 3,5% pickrate.

But that is most likely because the good Quinn players feel like they dont need the extra damage, much like a bunch of EU top Rengar mains are actually running fleet footwork to improve their jungle sustain and speed in combat.

You're forgetting Season 7 had Thunderlord's Decree, which behaved exactly like Electrocute, and in Season 7, did WAY more on hit damage than Duskblade.

Static shiv needed you go IE to get the max crit, that build was too slow for Quinn in a sololane which is why she didnt have a popularity spike there if i recall right.

Thunderlord did way less damage than electrolute, "the target is dealt 10 - 180 (based on level) + (30% bonus AD) + (10% AP) "

50 - 220 (based on level) (+ 50% bonus AD) (+ 30% AP) Attack damageAbility power Adaptive damage.

Better scaling with better base damage adds up very quickly, and while there was a massive difference in cooldown, it was still very very rare to get TLD off more than once in a all in.

And yes. Her Passive does more damage than either of them, or ANY of them. As it increases it can well get up over 250 damage per mark, and she can lay on 3 per encounter.

And what fuels that passive? It´s AD, and it just so happens to go great with lethality.

It can crit, it applies on hit effects,

If you just build AD it will hurt but it will be the end of it, if you build AD/lethality and crit it will hurt a lot, if you build those 3 with a bunch of onhit effects it will hurt like hell and here we are.

Do remember, her Q causes the target to be blinded for 1,5 seconds, which means she gets 2 duskblade procs per fight.

3 harrier procs, that each will crit with stormrazor.

1 or possibly 2 static shiv procs, that will also crit.

And all those crits are guaranteed by stormrazor.

You can tell me, is she broken by herself or is it the items? I´d argue that she is alright by herself as shown by how she performed last time lethality was nerfed in season 7.

But with stormrazor to provide her a grand powerspike at 3 items despite getting her 2 lethality items first she is now insane.

Actually she should still be hella powerful just outright rushing Stormrazor (SR), since raw AD still works and the powerspike shouldnt be bad at all even lacking some AD.

And getting static shiv second would also be good since it pretty much goes hand in hand with SR.

QmegaSquadVeigarJul 27, 20184 votes

Having an item that gives free 200 dmg a better red trinket lethality and good chunk ad for 2900 is too much. 200 dmg is basically dmg of an ability like zed's Q or E. Combine this with electrocute and you have over 300 dmg for free that your opponent can't counter at all. It's like old veigar R. If it was late game and you were a mage he would just pop you with R.

pseudo dionysiusJul 26, 20183 votes

Why do they like this item 3147 item so much?

ValiantKillerJul 26, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=cyber heckler ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t9dlfzVI,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-07-26T21:12:48.324+0000)

Why do they like this item so much?

Cause they like item 3124 and item 3078 Balance team got this 3 items and yet you ask why they love one of them ? lol

TempName54846Jul 27, 20183 votes

nah i'd much rather have quinn along with other ranged tops removed from the game.

Int Like RickonJul 27, 20183 votes

Quinn's issue is the damage she gets from her passive, not duskblade...

Lukáš MrákošlapJul 27, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Int Like Rickon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t9dlfzVI,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2018-07-27T16:07:35.434+0000)

Quinn's issue is the damage she gets from her passive, not duskblade...

And combined with Duskblade and Stormrazor makes her kit borderline broken. And don't forget Static shiv for extra fireworks.

EedatJul 26, 20182 votes

I'm just scared that theyre going to nerf all these champs then nerf eletrocute and/or duskblade as well and leave them dumpstered

AirKingNeoJul 26, 20182 votes

overpowered =/= should be removed

SilverRitterJul 27, 20182 votes

{quoted}

overpowered =/= should be removed

I agree, but overpowered should result in a nerf.

Giga BaboonJul 27, 20182 votes

Meddler: no

Literally everybody: but why meddler

Expecting an answer? Lmao don't kid yourself. Maybe in 6 months he'll release a gameplay farts where he explains ghostcrawler is working on something in 8 months.

ISuckWithThreshJul 27, 20182 votes

They are too ignorant to do that. They said ''If something is too broken, we remove it'' huh right

BestPudgeNAJul 27, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Stop nerfing the symptoms (champions like quinn and wukong becoming broken) and nerf the actual disease itself (duskblade.)

Meanwhile in reality the highest elo Quinn player in the world builds item 3095 > item 3087 every game and NEVER builds Duskblade.

TormentulaJul 27, 20182 votes

Quinn doesn't always go duskblade.

Wukong does but tbh I'm more sick of him 100-0ing my squishies with just the 5 man knock up, with the auto being extra. The fucking ability does 200 damage per second for 4 seconds (800 damage) PLUS the 1.1% AD ratio per second.. he's literally doing 880 + 800 (1680) damage per second at rank 3 ult with just 200 AD. these numbers are ridiculous for just one ability.

ChargeItDownMidJul 27, 20182 votes

[deleted]

Alex h8721Jul 28, 20181 votes

EXACTLY, but you'll never hear the circlejerk mention that in challenger level most quinn's go stormrazor into shiv into IE.

Trinity AceJul 27, 20181 votes

Nerf the Champs not Duskblade. Wukong and Quinn are obviously too strong, even without duskblade.

Summonah12369Jul 27, 20181 votes

So first the boards whine about wanting nerfs on these two champions and now you don't?

Breezey BoyJul 27, 20181 votes

I think the problem with Duskblade is just its unique passive, take that away and the item would be much more balanced.

SteelflameJul 27, 20181 votes

Duskblade intrinsically isn't a problem. Its how overloaded Duskblade is that is a problem.

Duskblade needs to be split into two items, so that it's overloaded mechanics can be split properly into a set of items, and you actually have to make choices when playing an assassin.

Item 1 - Duskblade (Blackout focused). First adaptive stat item, building out of Serrated Dirk and Oblivion Orb, and granting both penetration types concurrently (Note that this wouldn't stack with Morello's Mpen, as it uses the.) Either grants 50 AD or 80 AP, and 300 HP, depending on what your current adaptive stat bias is, along with 15 Lethality and Touch of Death : 15 Mpen. Blackout passive is buffed to a 60 second CD, but otherwise no changes (Note, that this is a NERF to Blackout passive if you know how it works with Nightstalker... which is no longer a thing with this rework. This is that you can permanently use Nightstalker as a free ward check by seeing if it is going on CD or not. If it is starting to go on CD, you know a ward, minion, or champion has you spotted. You can probably figure out really quick which this is. Once you know you got spotted, you just turn on your backup Sweeper/pink ward) This opens up the vision game for both AD and AP assassins (And anyone else for that matter). Very vision focused, although still a great damage up for champions who have dual damage types, even if it is only granting either AD or AP.

Item 2 - Stormsurge Stilletto - 55 AD, 10% CDR, 15 Lethality, and the Storm's Edge (Stormrazor's unique passive) passive, changed to be that your next attack is a crit for 150% damage, scaling to 200% with Lethality, with the CD reset reworked to 3 seconds out of combat for melees, or 10 seconds for Ranged. This fixes assassins from getting/abusing Stormrazor AND Duskblade for stupidly high up front hits (Especially if they went Duskblade-Stormrazor-Shiv).

Only other change to lethality items is that the other 2 lethality items lose 3 lethality each, just to accommodate the increase in total lethality available. You still have more total Lethality available, just less at each item until 3.5 items.

woodvsmurphJul 28, 20181 votes

Quinn's "problem" is not duskblade. In fact, she doesn't even need the item and will still be at her current winrate. Her kit is simply too damn cancerous for melee's w/o a ranged point-n-click cc to deal with and have any hope of fighting back against her. Not only does she have a blind, but also she has her w proc's and her vault with it's mini stun - yes it does in fact stun an opponent when she's vaulting off them - preventing them from attacking her, stunning or pulling her, or moving during this time. Which is basically to say someone like darius or renekton cannot stun/pull her to punish aggressive vaults and should never be able to actually engage on her to even attempt trading (other than renekton e,q trades which she can interrupt with vault and out-trade anyways). It also means poppy has to proactively pop her w to block quinn's vault or she will be stunned and unable to cast it.

Vayne has similar potential with her kit in toplane; however, quinn does it better for many reasons. She could make up for no duskblade completely off hail of blades harass and item 3095 crit on first 3 autos. Plus she can take ignite or whatever laning sum she wants and still play as though she has tp thanks to her movespeed while in bird form. And even if her opponent manages to go even vs her somehow, they likely had to adjust their item timings to prioritize extra defense early AND she is still able to roam and delete squishier carries in other lanes or even the jungle. She 100% deserves nerfs or reworked kit to be less toxic to melee's not named pantheon or mundo... duskblade is purely icing on the cake and removing it solves nothing.

RαyJul 28, 20181 votes

Both Champs are busted without Duskblade, simply because of Stormrazor and other stuff that synergizes with it (Statikk Shiv etc.).

I agree on removing Duskblade, but nerfing both champs as well.

remakoroJul 28, 20181 votes

Im pretty sure stormrazor has to go as well. Its the same shit as that thing of divine that got REMOVED. yet they bring it back now but 10 times worse.