Mid vs Bot hypocrisy

Malak·Oct 11, 2018·10 votes·2,055 views

Mid has bruisers, assassins, tanks, and supports pushing out mages - "ok variety is good"

A non-marksman becomes viable bot - "WTF ADC UNPLAYABLE RITO PLS BUFF"

Back to botlane being pure ADC again...

EDIT:

"Mid has what?? No way" Yes, mid has all the classes I mentioned and possibly more.

(supports, zil is s tier and lulu even saw play in worlds) (fighters/bruisers, whatever you wanna call them have plagued mid for a while now) (tanks, you'll see tanks in worlds going mid at least once every 2-3 games) (assassins, make up a large portion of S tier midlaners)

(these guys can go mid/top to ruin your day I guess)

I'm fine with diversity. But why the fuck isn't that diversity applied to botlane? In organized and solo queu, it's pure marksman in the bottom role again. Adding stormrazor probably had to do with it but not sure.

37 Comments

DuskDaUmbreonOct 11, 20186 votes

Bruisers and supports pushing out mages? What?

What support is pushing mages out of mid? Are you thinking of the funnel strat, which was nerfed? Are you thinking of Nami mid, which isn't viable? Or are you thinking of Morgana mid, ignoring the fact that she was originally a midlane champion and isn't really a viable mid?

MalakOct 11, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Bruisers and supports pushing out mages? What?

What support is pushing mages out of mid? Are you thinking of the funnel strat, which was nerfed? Are you thinking of Nami mid, which isn't viable? Or are you thinking of Morgana mid, ignoring the fact that she was originally a midlane champion and isn't really a viable mid?

Lulu saw play in worlds (mid) literally like a day ago. Zilean is considered S tier by some souces for mid as well.

Atrox, Irelia seeing play in SoloQ but not sure if played at worlds mid

Sion, Galio see play mid in both worlds and solo Q.

And we all know and love our assassins mid so that's all 4 of the classes I mentioned.

EDIT: Jayce is popping up mid quite a bit too

I listed the examples, and you can verify by looking at some worlds vids and checking out solo Q tier lists, like the mobalytics youtube series. If you guys wanna ignore the facts there's nothing more I can do. So downvote away

DuskDaUmbreonOct 11, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Lulu saw play in worlds (mid) literally like a day ago. Zilean is considered S tier by some souces for mid as well.

Lulu is normally nerfed out of solo lanes as soon as she pops up. Also, a single pick hardly means they're pushing them out.

Zilean has always had both a support and a mid recommended item page. Riot considers him both a mid and a support. Zilean is also a mage. A mage cannot be pushing mages out of mid, because he'd just be replacing one mage with another mage then.

The rest of those? Just because they're viable there doesn't mean they're pushing mages out.

Bruisers bot was just bullshit on all ends, and left only 2 marksmen viable. Most mages (assuming there's no pro play discrepancy, such as Ryze has) are still viable.

MalakOct 11, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Lulu is normally nerfed out of solo lanes as soon as she pops up. Also, a single pick hardly means they're pushing them out.

Zilean has always had both a support and a mid recommended item page. Riot considers him both a mid and a support. Zilean is also a mage. A mage cannot be pushing mages out of mid, because he'd just be replacing one mage with another mage then.

The rest of those? Just because they're viable there doesn't mean they're pushing mages out.

Bruisers bot was just bullshit on all ends, and left only 2 marksmen viable. Most mages (assuming there's no pro play discrepancy, such as Ryze has) are still viable.

Yea, that's the logic I wish ADC mains crying had. Just because other classes are viable doesn't mean marksman were pushed out. At no point in time were there "only 2 marksmen viable" lmfao.

Now look at botlane, back to full ADC meta with nothing to compete against it.

ModAcademy KaynOct 11, 20183 votes

Except that you ignore the fact that there have been non-ADC bot laners this worlds, soooooooo

Downvoted for what? There has!

ShadWoooOct 12, 20181 votes

The main reason fighters aren't dominating midlane in pickrate and winrate is because most midlaners don't want to or can't play them and those who tried them didn't know how to play it or how to make that pick efficient. A lot of midlaners are playing exclusively mages and they cannot easily adopt ad fighter who was completely different playstyle.

If that wasn't the case it would be already fighter/assassin only lane long time ago because nobody needs AP dmg this season -majority games are decided pre 20 minutes, in longer games tanks are destroyed by true damage that is everywhere now. Plus, Mages can't damage tanks at all for more than 2 seasons, their sole purpose is only to force that tank to build some MR items so he won't be as beefy against AD champions.

Nobody needs waveclear anymore because Herald exists. Mages are only cc bots with some follow-up damage right now. SoloQ at least.

HethaleanOct 11, 20186 votes

Well I'm not sure it's hypocrasy. ADC champions themselves were designed specifically for that role that usually if they show up elsewhere prevalently, they get nerfed. So once the only area that Riot allow sthem to be... pushes them out of that role. I'm not surprised they buff them.

MalakOct 11, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Well I'm not sure it's hypocrasy. ADC champions themselves were designed specifically for that role that usually if they show up elsewhere prevalently, they get nerfed. So once the only area that Riot allow sthem to be... pushes them out of that role. I'm not surprised they buff them.

Where else can I play Karthus without getting absolutely destroyed, other than mid? Same with Anivia and the vast majority of mages?

Jungle? Enemy Graves free win. Top? Some can, like Ryze and Karthus, but it's pretty risky for most. Bot? I'm literally trolling thinking I can play versus Draven..

As you can see. APCs were designed to be placed mid the same way ADCs were "designed" to be placed bot. So I don't know man, that excuse doesn't seem valid to me right now.

HethaleanOct 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Where else can I play Karthus without getting absolutely destroyed, other than mid? Same with Anivia and the vast majority of mages?

Jungle? Enemy Graves free win. Top? Some can, like Ryze and Karthus, but it's pretty risky for most. Bot? I'm literally trolling thinking I can play versus Draven..

As you can see. APCs were designed to be placed mid the same way ADCs were "designed" to be placed bot. So I don't know man, that excuse doesn't seem valid to me right now.

Graves was reengineered to be a jungler. There was no way he would be a bot laner with that kit. Also he's seen a LOT of nerfs as well.

Corki has seen a ton of nerfs as well, but he doesn't work bot lane much either with his new kit, so he stays mid lane.

A lot of champions switch between mid and top. Also I said prevalently (just because I've seen someone play Janna top doesn't mean it's prevalent)

Also I said when they are forced out of that role when if i recall all the top 10 win rate and play rates were not ADCs. There is an argument to be said that they were forced out of the role when there are 22 ADC champions (32 with the additions), and the top 10 are not adcs. I can't recall correctly, but I remember (not reliable) that most of them weren't adcs. There are plenty more ADCs than just Graves, and Corki. When none of them were relevant since they were sort of forced in that one lane.

ParoeOct 11, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Well I'm not sure it's hypocrasy. ADC champions themselves were designed specifically for that role that usually if they show up elsewhere prevalently, they get nerfed. So once the only area that Riot allow sthem to be... pushes them out of that role. I'm not surprised they buff them.

Quinn, graves, ezreal, Corki, Jhin, kindred... Kindred mid is really strong after her first 6K gold of storm razor and shiv even without boots.
Actually, the only marksmen who CANT be played anywhere but bot are immobile ones who dont offer much or are specifically designed to have a partner like Kalista. Teemo, Urgot, and Jayce, the odd marksmen, are also all viable in mid and top.

I think the real problem with the whole bot lane diversity thing is that people just dont understand what made those lanes effective to begin with, and why they dont work now.

HethaleanOct 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Quinn, graves, ezreal, Corki, Jhin, kindred... Kindred mid is really strong after her first 6K gold of storm razor and shiv even without boots.
Actually, the only marksmen who CANT be played anywhere but bot are immobile ones who dont offer much or are specifically designed to have a partner like Kalista. Teemo, Urgot, and Jayce, the odd marksmen, are also all viable in mid and top.

I think the real problem with the whole bot lane diversity thing is that people just dont understand what made those lanes effective to begin with, and why they dont work now.

Well, Kindred was not designed to be a bot laner though... so it's not that relevant to adc's being forced out of bot lane... as she was never meant to be bot lane. I think the same thing with Graves. With his autos, there was absolutely no way he could go bot lane.

If we want to talk about champions that can be played elsewhere, I've seen Soraka go top which means she's not a support based champion. That's why prevalent was a key word. If they start being prevalent elsewhere and being some of the most common in other lanes, I've seen nerfs for them.

Ezreal i've watched get tons of nerfs when he shows up mid a lot (especially in pro plays). Corki saw a ton of nerfs, but I think Riot has accepted he's a mid laner and not bot laner. Jhin I've never seen show up mid in any aggregater site (which means it's extremely statistically insignificant same with Corki... idr the last time he ever showed up as Bot for any aggregate site).

Riot doesn't go off of statistically insignificant for buffs/nerfs. Like i doubt they ever considered Singed nerfs because of that one guy playing him support.

ParoeOct 11, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Well, Kindred was not designed to be a bot laner though... so it's not that relevant to adc's being forced out of bot lane... as she was never meant to be bot lane. I think the same thing with Graves. With his autos, there was absolutely no way he could go bot lane.

If we want to talk about champions that can be played elsewhere, I've seen Soraka go top which means she's not a support based champion. That's why prevalent was a key word. If they start being prevalent elsewhere and being some of the most common in other lanes, I've seen nerfs for them.

Ezreal i've watched get tons of nerfs when he shows up mid a lot (especially in pro plays). Corki saw a ton of nerfs, but I think Riot has accepted he's a mid laner and not bot laner. Jhin I've never seen show up mid in any aggregater site (which means it's extremely statistically insignificant same with Corki... idr the last time he ever showed up as Bot for any aggregate site).

Riot doesn't go off of statistically insignificant for buffs/nerfs. Like i doubt they ever considered Singed nerfs because of that one guy playing him support.

I think youre missing the point to further your victim-driven narrative. The marksmen i named specifically are common picks elsewhere (aside from jhin, who is currently a bot laner exclusively. Fact remains he used to be a meta mid laner though), regardless of whether or not they were intended to be there explicitly...
Graves for example is only a jungler because of his knock back passive. He still functions in any major lane, like almost every other marksman.

SwiftKitten88Oct 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Well I'm not sure it's hypocrasy. ADC champions themselves were designed specifically for that role that usually if they show up elsewhere prevalently, they get nerfed. So once the only area that Riot allow sthem to be... pushes them out of that role. I'm not surprised they buff them.

ADC were designed to be sustained damage in teamfigts after all cooldowns were blown. they lost their role when riot damage crept the game so that people die in 1-3 basic abilities. and everyone is dead before there is any chance for sustained damage"

but don't say "adc were designed for X" when they wern't

HethaleanOct 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

ADC were designed to be sustained damage in teamfigts after all cooldowns were blown. they lost their role when riot damage crept the game so that people die in 1-3 basic abilities. and everyone is dead before there is any chance for sustained damage"

but don't say "adc were designed for X" when they wern't

Pretty decently sure marksmen were designed with being bot lane with a support in mind.

SwiftKitten88Oct 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Pretty decently sure marksmen were designed with being bot lane with a support in mind.

yeah.. well your wrong... i wasnt there in season 1 and 2 but i know for a fact in at least one of those season they weren't played bot lane at all

ADC were solo laners... i believe mid lane

the meta we know today of mages mid, bruisers and tanks top, and adc and support bot was there when i started in season 3 but it wasn't how it has always been.

ParoeOct 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

yeah.. well your wrong... i wasnt there in season 1 and 2 but i know for a fact in at least one of those season they weren't played bot lane at all

ADC were solo laners... i believe mid lane

the meta we know today of mages mid, bruisers and tanks top, and adc and support bot was there when i started in season 3 but it wasn't how it has always been.

If anything, supports were designed with marksmen in mind and ones from before that became the intent have been reworked into it.

A Bad VarusOct 11, 20186 votes

[deleted]

MalakOct 11, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chain Me Thresh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t8lylVi8,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-10-11T22:11:44.802+0000)

I guess we're just going to ignore that the reason ADCs were unplayable was because all their items got nerfed and not because of diversity.

sounds awfully familiar to the mage item nerf

FOR JUSTICEOct 11, 20183 votes

mana can be used to do a plethora of things though. adc itemization can sometimes grant special effects, but all boils down to a bunch of extra AD.

not weighing in on your OP just yet, but this example specifically is a terribly bad comparison, especially because it didn't push out all mages, just ones who liked to spam abilities every half second. unlike crit marksmen, who make up like 80% of the botlane roster.

MalakOct 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

mana can be used to do a plethora of things though. adc itemization can sometimes grant special effects, but all boils down to a bunch of extra AD.

not weighing in on your OP just yet, but this example specifically is a terribly bad comparison, especially because it didn't push out all mages, just ones who liked to spam abilities every half second. unlike crit marksmen, who make up like 80% of the botlane roster.

Fair enough, however this isn't a thread saying mages need buffs. It's to bring up the fact that marksman are once again the only thing viable in bot lane and when that isn't the case, adc mains complain until they get massive buffs somehow.

ParoeOct 11, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chain Me Thresh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t8lylVi8,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-10-11T22:11:44.802+0000)

I guess we're just going to ignore that the reason ADCs were unplayable was because all their items got nerfed and not because of diversity.

This is misleading, and marksmen were never "unplayable". The reason why non-traditional bot lanes worked is because marksmen lost their late game at two items playstyle due to much needed itemization nerfs. Before the marksman itemization changes, and even after when those changes were largely removed, marksmen itemization was SUPER CHEAP and EXTREMELY gold efficient. Whereas every other class spends ~800-1100g on their normal, complete items for a mere 90% to 100% gold efficiency. Marksmen spent about 500g in combine cost for 110% to 130% gold efficiency (because their items are gold efficient before passives, unlike most other items which are only gold efficient after passives).

The itemization changes were meant to draw power OUT of their early game to justify their almost universal hypercarry late-game as well as slow down their initial series of power spikes from two items to three. Which brings us to the reason why non-traditional bot lanes worked during this time; _ During this three week period, not even a month, marksmen were balanced. Their position in balance gave them a sable window by which they were vulnerable; for the first time, these universal lane bullies could be felled, they COULD be beaten, they could be slowed down in order to allow the rest of their team to push towards a victory before the enemy marksman could come online._ What many people dont or refuse to realize is that unless it was a juggernaut bot lane who could just run down everything, those non-traditional bot lanes tended to lose AFTER the marksman got online. Because their mid and late-game power was unchanged, only their early game power.

Hell, item 3031 only does about by 10 less damage per 100AD after 200AD than the old IE. With 300AD, thats only 20 less damage than its previous iteration. Hardly the massive nerf that people claimed.

BestPudgeNAOct 11, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chain Me Thresh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t8lylVi8,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-10-11T22:11:44.802+0000)

I guess we're just going to ignore that the reason ADCs were unplayable was because their items got nerfed and not because of diversity.

"Unplayable"

Was 90% of picks in solo Q. Was 70% of bot lane picks in Pro play and 70% of the non ADC bot games had funneled ADC jungle or Kindred/graves marksman who jungle.

K sure thing bud

MordepoolOct 11, 20183 votes

Yes let's also ignore that their obscene scaling off thier overly efficient items allowed them to completely stat check from range any and all other classes to the point where no one else mattered .

Honestly they could be rendered unplayable for 2 years so they can understand how the rest of the community felt.

Why is Riot back to catering to this Bullshit class of champions again I will never know

Death by GlamourOct 11, 20183 votes

you speak as if mages haven't been infesting botlane since Annie support in what season2/3

Lunar StrainOct 11, 20183 votes

But 3 of the top 5 mid laners are mages http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics Ahri Malzahar TwistedFate

That isn't "pushing out" lmao

MalakOct 11, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lunar Strain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t8lylVi8,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-10-11T22:42:43.091+0000)

But 3 of the top 5 mid laners are mages http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics

That isn't "pushing out" lmao

When the same was the case botlane ADCs were crying hard for massive buffs. Unless 5/5 best botlaners are marksman they are "unplayable"

Also, nice of you to pick top 5 lol. Top 10? Only 4/10 are mages. Top 15? Only 6/15 are mages.

(same source you linked)

Lunar StrainOct 11, 20181 votes

I always go by top 5. Top 10 includes b-tier, top 15 includes c-tier (counterpick tier)

JoeAnarchyOct 12, 20182 votes

Where can i play Caitlyn Jhin Jinx Kalista MissFortune Tristana Xayah other than botlane, and not be trolling? legitimate question.

ParoeOct 12, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Where can i play other than botlane, and not be trolling? legitimate question.

Literally the only one of those who would be questionable mid is Kalista.

Jhin, caitlyn, trist, MF, and Xayah have really high range AND burst damage. Jinx would be a skill match up.
But all of them have very strong waveclear or powerful anti-engage tools.

The EcdysiastOct 11, 20181 votes

You're acting as if all those roles are separate people, and there's no way mid laners play Katarina, Lux, and Irelia.

And that's just wrong. Mid laners can easily switch between different kinds of casters. Because that's who's going mid, casters-- not AA based fighters.

Meanwhile, an ADC main can't as easily completely switch their play style to suit Darius being better at bot lane.

ParoeOct 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're acting as if all those roles are separate people, and there's no way mid laners play Katarina, Lux, and Irelia.

And that's just wrong. Mid laners can easily switch between different kinds of casters. Because that's who's going mid, casters-- not AA based fighters.

Meanwhile, an ADC main can't as easily completely switch their play style to suit Darius being better at bot lane.

Darius wasnt even "better". His early game was, and his better early game enabled him to slow down a marksman to the point where the non-traditional bot lane could snowball and win before the enemy marksman came on line.

A marksman who came online would still generally win. A marksman who could survive the different lane (which is also a big factor into why those lanes worked) would still generally win. And a marksman who was just a better lane bully would generally win - during that three weeks caitlyn and varus were pretty strong picks.

The EcdysiastOct 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Darius wasnt even "better". His early game was, and his better early game enabled him to slow down a marksman to the point where the non-traditional bot lane could snowball and win before the enemy marksman came on line.

A marksman who came online would still generally win. A marksman who could survive the different lane (which is also a big factor into why those lanes worked) would still generally win. And a marksman who was just a better lane bully would generally win - during that three weeks caitlyn and varus were pretty strong picks.

The fact games didn't last long enough for the heavy marksman nerfs was the very issue.
Not true, and if it were the messed up bot lanes wouldn't have happened in the first place.
See 1.
See 2.

ParoeOct 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The fact games didn't last long enough for the heavy marksman nerfs was the very issue.

Not true, and if it were the messed up bot lanes wouldn't have happened in the first place.

See 1.

See 2.

Why yes, in a meta where games end at 20 minutes it IS in fact difficult for a champion put behind to recover! Thanks for providing an additional point i didnt really cover when talking about WHY non traditional bot lanes worked in the first place!

You can claim things arent true but the fact remains they were - one of the more fun statistics for bruiser bot lanes was that as game time increased their chances of winning fell. Even swain/heimer+ support bot lanes - the most successful - were still outscaled if they failed to put the enemy marksman behind or the enemy marksman got caught back up due to the rest of the team failing. You notice that non-traditional bot lanes were almost always picked as _ a counter to traditional ones, right_? The reason for that is explicitly due to the window of weakness that marksman itemization now had and its potential to lead to a situation that was difficult to recover from.

Marksmen dont have that weakness still, storm razor, an item which should be classified as an assassin item, basically covers all of their early game weaknesses with a tidy gold efficiency of 270% or so counting its passive. Not counting its passive, the item is 102% or so gold efficient.

(MATH) 40 (1300g) 107% (1AD per 32.5g) 10 (350g) 100% (1AD per 35g) 10 (350g) 100% (1AD per 35g) 12% (300g) 100% (1% attack speed per 25g) 1300+300+350+350 = 2300g This item gains an additional 23% attack speed upon completion. Adding an additional 575g... 2875g. Actual price is 2800g. Without its passive this item is over 100% gold efficient. WITH its passive, which is worth approximately 4000g for 100% crit (40g per 1%), 20% movement speed is worth 790 (39.5g per 1%)... This item has a gold efficiency of 270% or so counting its passive.
(END MATH)

MalakOct 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're acting as if all those roles are separate people, and there's no way mid laners play Katarina, Lux, and Irelia.

And that's just wrong. Mid laners can easily switch between different kinds of casters. Because that's who's going mid, casters-- not AA based fighters.

Meanwhile, an ADC main can't as easily completely switch their play style to suit Darius being better at bot lane.

?? Kat platstyle is completly different to lux's playstyle. Also, no one said anything about forcing people to play other stuff bot, just not forcing everyone to marksman bot. How about we admit that adc players just don't want to adapt? While we're at it, let's also admit that markman players refuse to learn any matchup that doesn't involve another marksman?

ShadWoooOct 12, 20181 votes

Imo Yasuo can compete against them. But why would you play Yasuo who has especially in botlane high skill ceiling and very low tolerance to mistakes when you can play marksmen right?

It is also question whether current pro play top tier picks in top/mid Urgot, Aatrox and Irelia couldn't be played in botlane as well. They probably aren't only because you need that marksman in other lane for all he provides to the team (fastest objective killers, best super minion cleaners, strongest teamfighters because they aren't gated by cooldowns).

ChalizardOct 12, 20181 votes

"Low tolerance to mistakes"

ChalizardOct 12, 20181 votes

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/middle/platinum

Out of top 15 popular champions on mid only 3,5 are not mages, because I guess lebronze is somehow a mage. Irelia is just broken, it is not about her class being good on mid. Zed and Yasuo are just those flashy champions that people feel good to play with and they are always popular.

But I agree that adc mains are crybabies.