can we nerf them already? if theyre going to be invicible behind a shield wall, i dont see why theyre still allowed to be the main damage source of a team.
and i mean this time nerf marksmen. not buff mages again, not nerf the strongest marksmen and buff the "weakest".
nerf zeal items, nerf i.e. tune down their cubic scaling.
Big Lincoln29 voteswe must demand the rise of the melee carry
Critmaster Garen13 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t5lEdeVm,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-08-19T21:21:48.108+0000)
we must demand the rise of the melee carry
i dont think melee carries need to get buffed in general.
but marksmen are massively benefitting from all the support shielding, and the tank protection. now that they cant be focused down and blown up anymore in teamfight scenarios, they need their damage scaling culled to the same level as other carry types.
Salron4 votesSounds like an issue with support shielding
Critmaster Garen9 votes[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t5lEdeVm,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-19T21:42:40.806+0000)
Sounds like an issue with support shielding
if were reduce support shielding, marksmen will become more vulnerable again.
but were back to toxic glass cannon gameplay of "blow them up or get blown up". this design flaw around marksmen just sucks for everyone.
marksmen hate getting blown up with little counterplay. but if they arent, theyre batshit broken. you can see that right now where they have the best of both worlds. carry potential and safety.
just tune them the fuck down. fall in line with the rest of the carries in this game and be done with it.
the worst we can do is repeat the exact same thing we did in the past and buff burst.
Executioner4 votesWhy contradict yourself?
Why say them going back to a glass cannon is toxic? The damage remains the same, however you can now actually kill them.
Blow them up or get blown up IS ALREADY HERE. Why? Because that is your only choice. YOU NEED TO KILL THEM, because of all those shields and heals. However toxic glass cannon? That is the place you want them to be. Actually being able to kill them.
Do we hate getting blown up? Yes, however what we hate more is a ADC getting 5 different heals and shields and doing literally zero damage to them. That pisses us off much more.
Critmaster Garen8 votesWhy contradict yourself?
Why say them going back to a glass cannon is toxic? The damage remains the same, however you can now actually kill them.
Blow them up or get blown up IS ALREADY HERE.
its not. what we have now is, "which marksman can out dps the other wins the game" and everyone else on a team is reduced to being supports and peel bots for the marksman.
Executioner2 votesHow is a mage reduced to being a support? How is an assassin reduced to playing support?
Neither of these two classes are building the support items. Also many junglers dont build those support items. A select few sure, they can get away with it.
Also it's which not which marksman can out dps the other. Is that a factor? Yes. It's a combo of trying to kill the enemy marksman, while protecting your own. However if you have a mage on your team as well, they are a great factor in the team fight. Like an oriana, sydnra, cass, ahri.
LordGeovanni2 voteseveryone being reduced to a support is that they are meat sheilds so that every second the enemy adc isnt hitting your adc and your adc can get their mages rather than their tanks you have a better chance of winning. and if you think assassins dont tank you are right they 1 up tanking by jumping on your carries then go some form of cant hit then but you cant ignore them so you have to dick around until you can hit them again.
themachamp3 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t5lEdeVm,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-08-19T21:23:25.603+0000)
i dont think melee carries need to get buffed in general.
but marksmen are massively benefitting from all the support shielding, and the tank protection. now that they cant be focused down and blown up anymore in teamfight scenarios, they need their damage scaling culled to the same level as other carry types.
Well, not too long ago it was the exact opposite.......marksmen died wayyyyy too fast and had lil to no impact. You know it's bad when adc was the highest " auto-filled" role in the game( for any period of time) lmao.
Pierce The Veal1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t5lEdeVm,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-08-19T21:23:25.603+0000)
i dont think melee carries need to get buffed in general.
but marksmen are massively benefitting from all the support shielding, and the tank protection. now that they cant be focused down and blown up anymore in teamfight scenarios, they need their damage scaling culled to the same level as other carry types.
Melee carries just need to scale better than ranged carries. Which they really don't. Two ways this can be accomplished, melee carry buffs, and adc guts. Need a combination of both.
KoKoboto1 votesI'm not sure about melee carries either (they do great damage when they get to do damage) but fighters could use some buffs.
I think that when fighter is pretty lame because the best build is often fighter into full tank. I think that's pretty lame. The only champion that I feel can get away with going at least 2 items into tank is Riven because she really takes advantage of life steal.
Going 2 damage items on a lot of other fighters is death in teamfights, you need to go only one into tank if you want to survive.
I think we need another Jaurim's Fist item.
I think it sucks that most fighters can't kill super tanks at all late game.
I think it sucks that most fighters can beat tanks early but lose teamfights so hard. I think tanks should have more counter play.
However I also think that a lot of our fighter lane bullies also need more counter play. Shen and Sion are pretty bueno when I think about it, they're good tanks. Lane bullies like Renekton, Gnar, Jayce and Fiora (kinda) are lame. Gnar has range and Renekton's lane bully is point click stun into burst and dashing out, while Fiora pretends like she has counter play but doesn't unless you have insane mobility to protect vitals (Fiora should never miss a vital with her Q, it has great tracking).
I think Mao'Kai needs that acceleration change on his W. His a Warden but can play extremely well as a Vanguard because of his W. Imagine if Galio ult could be used everywhere, he'd have the same success rate as Mao'Kai. Vanguard tanks are favor in the meta but if you put a Warden into the middle of a fight they can still create a ton of havoc and tend to wreck more than Vanguards who focus on that one big engage. That's Mao'Kai.
Grevious wounds as a mechanic needs to be updated.
And of course, towers, dragon and baron need to be updated. I also think the reward for kills could be updated as well but this is kinda just balancing for LCS and how teams basically don't play for kills AT ALL sometimes because getting one solo kill doesn't do anything if you don't get an objective and doesn't give those champions enough of a lead (unless it's ADC or something).
Jaygo412 votesNot gonna lie ranged carries are by far the lesser of two evils.
I'll play against trist ALL DAY before I play against 
Eternal7912 votesI agree with this whole heartedly.
ZephyrDrake9 votessorry but armor does not mean "i take no physical damage anymore" You can build all the armor you want that doesn't mean anything. Even something like a full tank Pantheon is going to be able to deal decent damage to you. You don't build armor to become immune to physical damage but to survive longer than if you wouldn't have built any. Go play a custom with a friend and tell him to get very specific items and you go with no armor whatsoever and with 3 fully completed armor items and tell me how long it'll take you to die
Critmaster Garen17 votessorry but armor does not mean "i take no physical damage anymore" You can build all the armor you want that doesn't mean anything. Even something like a full tank Pantheon is going to be able to deal decent damage to you. You don't build armor to become immune to physical damage but to survive longer than if you wouldn't have built any. Go play a custom with a friend and tell him to get very specific items and you go with no armor whatsoever and with 3 fully completed armor items and tell me how long it'll take you to die
the thing is, right now i cant even bother to build mr to be able to survive the enemy mage a bit longer or to itemize vs. burst.
we just have to rely on the health off the armor items to deal with those guys. because the marksman is still going to out dps every other damage source on the team.
since their defense and protection generally has so massively increased theyre not just glass cannons anymore that instantly drop under focus.
this means they need to be brought in line with their midgame/lategame scaling with other carry types. they simply cant deal more reliable damage than everybody else anymore.
Randomonium6 votesDPS based champions will always deal the most damage in the game as long as they aren't bursted out. That's their sole reason for existing in the game. If DPS based champions like marksmen didn't deal more damage over longer periods of time then there would be no point to pick them over burst champions like burst mages or assassins.
Critmaster Garen5 votesDPS based champions will always deal the most damage in the game as long as they aren't bursted out. That's their sole reason for existing in the game. If DPS based champions like marksmen didn't deal more damage over longer periods of time then there would be no point to pick them over burst champions like burst mages or assassins.
the problem is that among dps based classes, marksmen currently deal the most reliable dps while sitting behind an unporportional wall of protection.
Marshbouy2 votesmarksmen currently deal the most reliable dps
the DPS class is supposed to deal the most reliable DPS. It's kinda in their name.
an unporportional wall of protection.
sounds like a support item problem. Sure stuff like twitch needs to be toned down but top laners aren't building support items just for shits and giggles. They're building them because they are powerful and not building them puts the team at a disadvantage.
Critmaster Garen4 votesthe DPS class is supposed to deal the most reliable DPS. It's kinda in their name.
the level of dps is debatable though.
Marshbouy2 votesThe amount of damage is debatable, the reliability, not so much.
deadlychuck4 votesThere is no problem with DPS champions dealing the most damage.
The problem comes from burst champions dealing so much burst damage that DPS champions need to have their DPS raised to the point of absurdity to do more DPS than the burst champions.
All damage needs to be heavily nerfed across the board. It's unmanageable at the current degree to which champions are given damage and other parts of the game have been heavily neglected as the assassins, tanks, and marksmen duke it out over this DPS game.
Vectros1 votesDPS based champions will always deal the most damage in the game as long as they aren't bursted out. That's their sole reason for existing in the game. If DPS based champions like marksmen didn't deal more damage over longer periods of time then there would be no point to pick them over burst champions like burst mages or assassins.
I don't disagree. However, they have a huge amount of protection right now. They pretty much CAN'T get bursted out-the thing that's supposed to keep them in check late game. Their damage is high enough they basically burst down the assassin after all the shields counter the Assassin's burst. Then they rip the enemy team apart.
Being capable of massive damage but with lots of risk like Kog'Maw is ok...when the risk actually exists. I'm not so sure nerfing all the support itemization is the right move-I think they like being able to do it. So logically lowering the DPS of carries so it isn't overbearing lategame is probably the smartest move. They'd still be able to carry, still able to kill-just not as fast.
Randomonium1 votesI disagree because then you are making DPS champions RELIANT on other teammates picking shielding champions. If DPS champions are only an issue when they have too many shields then the most logical solution is to nerf the shields. If you nerf their damage then they become useless unless their teammates pick shielding champions.
One really interesting change that I think could be extremely good is make shields have diminishing returns. If the ADC get shielded by 4 different sources then he only gets the strongest shield at 100%, the second strongest at 80%, etc, etc, etc. This would give more counterplay to shields and would also raise the skill cap of shielding champions because you would have to time your shields correctly to get maximum effect (similar to how you have to time CC properly.)
Vectros1 votesI disagree because then you are making DPS champions RELIANT on other teammates picking shielding champions. If DPS champions are only an issue when they have too many shields then the most logical solution is to nerf the shields. If you nerf their damage then they become useless unless their teammates pick shielding champions.
One really interesting change that I think could be extremely good is make shields have diminishing returns. If the ADC get shielded by 4 different sources then he only gets the strongest shield at 100%, the second strongest at 80%, etc, etc, etc. This would give more counterplay to shields and would also raise the skill cap of shielding champions because you would have to time your shields correctly to get maximum effect (similar to how you have to time CC properly.)
But we aren't just talking shielding champions, there are items in the game that tanks will take to protect them. It's the combination of shield champions with items (shield items, life steal items, damage reduction items the ADC's typically buy) come together to make them impossible to burst. I mean even when you watch LCS now, you'll see tank jungle or top taking things like Knights Vow or Locket.
Not sure how I feel on diminishing shields. It sounds good at first, but I feel a lot of people would probably get angry at the system-it'd feel bad when 2 people shield at the same time and the effect ends up weaker because of it.
Though personally I wouldn't be opposed to it. I assume that would also include self shields and the bloodthirster shield?
Critmaster Garen6 votesyes, we could nerf support itemization. but who the fuck even likes this gameplay of "kill the marksman before he takes a step"?
nobody does. you hear the marksmen complaining, you hear the supports complaining because its too hard to protect them, and everyone else doesnt like having his game decided by the performance of one single person on his team.
just tune down their ability to carry and be done with it. they get to live through fights, play the game and everyone else falls into his role.
Rexxiee6 votes"supports and tanks are too strong, so nerf adcs"
Ah classic boards logic.
LegacyDAP3 votesSeriously, I like how he even states the source of the problem
if theyre going to be invicible behind a shield wall, i dont see why theyre still allowed to be the main damage source of a team.
It's literally shields and shit that are the problem, ADC's can't die because of supports and their items being too strong.
Theorchero6 votes"supports and tanks are too strong, so nerf adcs"
Ah classic boards logic.
ADCs have been MANDATORY for SEVEN goddamn seasons.
It's about fucking TIME they get the gutting they deserve.
IamBILGE5 votesWhat i hate is that Marksman is designated as its own class when its perhaps the most boring way to play. Also, everyone who types "ADC" in chat 5 times in the first half second of entering the lobby for a blind pick seems very entitled, thinking everyone else must revolve around them.
Executioner2 votesEveryone does that though in blind pick.
Executioner4 votesIf you built three armor items to my 3 crit items? I am not doing any damage to you. I dont know where you got that silly notion.
Critmaster Garen9 votesIf you built three armor items to my 3 crit items? I am not doing any damage to you.
except that because of cc and shields, fights are drawn out so long, that the marksman is still the major damage source, because theyre power spiking off 2 zeal items and i.e. now.
try to take down any marksmen in this meta with a lulu or janna at his side. good fucking luck.
Executioner4 votesOh, now were adding in the supports? I thought this was just purely the adc against a tank with 3 armor items. Also with those three items you have around 160-170 AD, depending on your level. However you got 70% crit chance. Though against armor which you have 3 armor items mind you which around 60%+ I am not doing any damage to you.
Critmaster Garen11 votesOh, now were adding in the supports? I thought this was just purely the adc against a tank with 3 armor items. Also with those three items you have around 160-170 AD, depending on your level. However you got 70% crit chance. Though against armor which you have 3 armor items mind you which around 60%+ I am not doing any damage to you.
were not "adding" the supports because we never established that they arent part of the equation.
what else did you think when i said "behind a shield wall"?
Executioner2 votesWell you are a tank that cant do any damage, but cc anymore. Im not surprised you couldn't get through a "shield wall". Nice complaint however.
Critmaster Garen12 votesWell you are a tank that cant do any damage, but cc anymore. Im not surprised you couldn't get through a "shield wall". Nice complains however.
look. i dont know if youre aware of this. but there is a good reason why the top meta marksmen right now are stat check champions like twitch, tristana, kog maw and vayne.
because support and tank itemization has been designed in a way to completely wall them off from the divers and assassins who are usually supposed to dispose of them as quickly as possible.
top meta supports right now are massive peel bots like janna, soraka and lulu.
due to healing, and shielding and damage reduction thanks to items like 
and peeling from tanks, marksmen got a massive buff to their reliability and safety.
if theyre going to keep this, they simply can not keep putting out this type of dps theyre doing right now.
Executioner3 votesYou forgot 
, plus the tanks getting 
to make Locket all that much better. Supports have always been peel bots, Janna has always been peeling, and soraka is a healing bot, she cant really peel. Only keep you alive.
Oh and Tristana is a safe pick compared to the two tank busters you put out, kog'maw the juggernaut, and vayne the tank buster.
Twitch is a ambushing champion that snowballs his lead by ambushing backlines or staying at a safe distance to attack.
However you cannot blame adc for when your 2 people on your team actively keeping them alive. ADC has always been a DPS. Many games, people were keep this DPS alive long as possible to get as much damage out as possible.
"Blame the ADC! Blame him!"
Holy shit dude, that sounds like support items are fucking great! To great!
"Fuck that blame the ADC!"
Why would you blame the adc when all he does is damage, when he wont die because he has so many shields and heals being pumped out onto him. Because all he does is damage? Sure he does damage, however what is fucking people over the most? Support items, yet hardly anyone fucking speaks about that.
Also back to our point, 3 crit items lose 3 armor items.
Critmaster Garen10 votesHowever you cannot blame adc for when your 2 people on your team actively keeping them alive. ADC has always been a DPS. Many games, people were keep this DPS alive long as possible to get as much damage out as possible.
im not blaming them for keeping adc alive.
but im blaming adc for the unproportional amount of agency they get over the game due to the increased protection without a reduction to their dps potential.
marksmen are not the only type of carry in this game. in the past their absurd carry potential was balanced out by equal vulnerability to burst.
someone like twitch or kog maw was much more risky to play and more vulnerable to mage burst, divers and assassins.
this is not the case anymore. marksmen are more protected and safe than they used to be. they simply cant outclass other carries anymore when it comes to their dps.
ZephyrDrake2 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t5lEdeVm,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-19T22:02:42.881+0000)
im not blaming them for keeping adc alive.
but im blaming adc for the unproportional amount of agency they get over the game due to the increased protection without a reduction to their dps potential.
marksmen are not the only type of carry in this game. in the past their absurd carry potential was balanced out by equal vulnerability to burst.
someone like twitch or kog maw was much more risky to play and more vulnerable to mage burst, divers and assassins.
this is not the case anymore. marksmen are more protected and safe than they used to be. they simply cant outclass other carries anymore when it comes to their dps.
yes they can. Sorry but all i see here is a salty player who is using the most pathetic excuses to nerf a class. Sorry but what? so in your eyes it's ok to keep insanely broken items that are just going to spill everywhere and make everything a huge pain to deal with just because you do not want it nerf before ADCs get nerfed so we are left with weak ADCs that aren't able to do their job and are very easily killed. Support items are too strong. You aren't even picking supports due to their kits you are just picking the supports that are able to abuse the items the most. That is what the support role has devolved into. You don't care about picking a Leona because she is able to lock down opponents, or Picking Tahm to deal with engages on any of your teammates, or picking Taric for his ult, or Janna for her Peel, or Soraka for her heals or anything like that. You always just look at "who can abuse ardent the most? you can abuse redemption? who can abuse knights vow? you can abuse locket?" and pick accordingly while every else is just a plus that comes with the broken items
Executioner1 votesI mean the only reason I can even get to play adc at this point is because of supports. Along with living long enough to deal good damage.
Critmaster Garen4 votesI mean the only reason I can even get to play adc at this point is because of supports. Along with living long enough to deal good damage.
im only asking to tune down the damage. not the survivability.
Executioner1 votesThe survivability comes from the support items, not the Marksman themselves.
Critmaster Garen4 votesThe survivability comes from the support items, not the Marksman themselves.
im asking for them to deal less dps.
im not asking for them to deal no dps.
so no, im not.
Mizaya1 votesWhich is why Riot is thinking of making an anti-shield mechanic. I mean what are you going to do, nerf all marksmen when half of them aren't even that strong or aren't played bot anymore? I don't think Jhin or Ezreal need nerfs, no, that I am certain of.
Really, I'm no fan of support itemization dedicated to marksmen. My favorite kind of meta is a meta where I can play ADC and do my own thing, be held responsible for my own actions. I don't think being able to win without putting in any effort because you have a Maokai and Janna is fun or satisfying.
But are we really going to try to solidify their role as even more team-reliant? No. I say nerf support tank itemization, and probably buff jungle income from monsters. We don't need as a core jungle item. Probably nerf 
as well to make the playing field more even amongst ADCs.
Critmaster Garen5 votesWhich is why Riot is thinking of making an anti-shield mechanic. I mean what are you going to do, nerf all marksmen when half of them aren't even that strong or aren't played bot anymore? I don't think Jhin or Ezreal need nerfs, no, that I am certain of.
Really, I'm no fan of support itemization dedicated to marksmen. My favorite kind of meta is a meta where I can play ADC and do my own thing, be held responsible for my own actions. I don't think being able to win without putting in any effort because you have a Maokai and Janna is fun or satisfying.
But are we really going to try to solidify their role as even more team-reliant? No. I say nerf support tank itemization, and probably buff jungle income from monsters. We don't need
and anti shield mechanic is going to turn out about as balanced as grievous wounds.
they cant balance the relationship between heal debuffs and health sustain. one of them has always been overtuned. what makes them think theyll be able to balance an anti shield mechanic?
its going to be another clusterfuck.
deadlychuck2 votesYou also don't seem to be noticing that, while you might "not deal any damage", you have a much higher rate of getting gold, because you invested into offensive items which let you farm faster and more consistently.
Executioner1 votesNo shit.
deadlychuck3 votesWell considering that getting gold faster means you'd have those 3 crit items much sooner than they'd acquire the 3 armor items, so at no point would you ever realistically not have the damage advantage against them, except for the ultra late game, but at that point I'm assuming you've already purchased a 
since you had the clear lead in your build.
TheBadApple2 votesi agree with this. i once had a 15+ stack chogath game with over 400 armor. i was still terrified of the enemy adc. thats dumb. it was vayne, and she would still do like 1k damage with one shot and it wasnt a 3rd shot. 6 item vayne is aids.
PROJECT Katarìna1 votesHonestly I rathered get 1 shotted by a vayne instead of cho gath at least Id have a chance to kill vayne. veitnam flashblacks continue as cho oneshots someone