Changing AP ratio to bonus HP ratio, that'll kinda kill AP chogath. I don't care either way since I'm not a chogath player, but it's just something I was thinking about. Any cho players wanna provide input on how you feel about a change like that?
http://www.surrenderat20.net/2017/01/127-pbe-update.html#balance
Matake14 votesYeah building AP on Cho sucks. They're trying to change his scaling so he doesn't HAVE TO build AP just to tank.
Ahristocats17 votesBuilding AP on cho sucks? dafuq?
Tychusfindlay91911 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t3VdgPV6,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-28T00:56:25.757+0000)
Building AP on cho sucks? dafuq?
my thoughts exactly, his current ratios, especially the 1.00 ratio on his Q reward AP very very generously. And even though his kit is unreliable, he has a ton of range on his Q which can lead to disgusting harass damage when paired with longer range CC to keep things still.
Of course, chogath in general just sucks balls right now, but that's besides the point. I always saw chogath as a mage (off-tank if needed) who was given a health stacking mechanic so that he wouldn't implode in 1 second later game if he tried to go in for a chomp execute.
50000000000000001 votesOn the official subclass thread, Cho'Gath was listed as a "unique playstyle." Maybe Riot is trying to give him a solid identity?
Troll for Trump9 votesHis identity is the melee AP mage, which there are few of.
The closest things would be AP 
or something.
He does need a rework, but don't make him a generic tank please.
AP cho is better than tank cho
Pierce The Veal2 votesHis identity is the melee AP mage, which there are few of.
The closest things would be AP
He does need a rework, but don't make him a generic tank please.
AP cho is better than tank cho
Agreeeeed.
NineTailedMystic9 votesA 300/475/650 + .7 AP point click true damage nuke is not healthy, I don't care how "hard" it is to get in range for it. Everything else about Cho is fine but Christ his R.
paisy2 votesSeriously, his ult is aids
Aptest3 votesI can count a large number of aids problems in lol that precede chogath:
this entire design
some cooldowns please and less training wheels
in any of his iterations
"drain tank"
see above
me > you gameplay.
chase me all day gameplay
maybe make her less script frinedly?
Narasimha5 votes - Only became a problem when her counters got nerfed. Before, it was actually possible to consistently bully her out of lane, which hurt her tremendously. Well, and the whole Crit Q thing.
- Basically went from overtuned to undertuned. A drain tank in itself isn't bad. The problem comes when thats all they can do.
- Been fine for a while now. He's always been super vulnerable to divers, since pooling costs him a good bit of health in return.
- Really not sure why he's on here
- Needs more incentives to fight rather than to be a split-pusher.
Auz the Ripper1 votesPure drain tanks like Aatrox are a problem for Riot's "counterplay" goal because the only way to beat them in most cases is a straight up stat check. They're too strategic and binary for Riot's taste
NineTailedMystic2 votes"Strategic" lol. Am I stronger? If yes, split push and kill whoever comes to stop me. If no, split push and run away when someone tries to stop me.
Spice POWAH1 votesI thought vayne was just fine ultil they gave her .7 AD scaling on her q that can also crit while also then making her q able to hit towers, which made her FoTM.
Edit: nevermind, I didn't see the other part of the vayne thing ignore me
Troll for Trump1 votesNo, his entire kit is too outdated.
His point and click ult does require you to get close.
So does Darius's(his ult is the closest I can think of).
In comparison to Darius, Cho just has many more gates that prevent him from doing much.
If you build a ton of AP on him, how tf are you charging into their backline without being annihilated? Don't say you're killing the frontlike tanks/juggernauts either, because all juggernauts sht on Cho.
If you go tank, you're ult won't do any significant dmg.
NineTailedMystic1 votesCho has a much longer CC of W, which improves the reliability of hitting Q.
Darius needs bleed stacks, Cho does not.
If you go tank, you still have a 650 base true damage nuke.
Troll for Trump1 votesDarius E + W are much longer cc.
CHo Q used to slow and that was removed. Cho's W was nerfed too; you can't go AP cho without sacrificing either the silence duration on W, or your main dmg from the Q. Cho needs to build more dmg to do as much dmg as Darius, and doing that will make him squishy. Cho can't build one item and still a lot. Cho is more immobile, Cho has no sustain or actually solid tankiness in teamfights(no eHP modifiers). CHogath is weaker in teamfights.
Darius has a 650 base true dmg nuke too...
NineTailedMystic1 votesDarius E W is much worse than Cho QW in terms of the CC they apply. Cho Q still Slows for 60% for 1.5s atfer they land. Cho W CC duration is only 1.5-2s depending on Rank so the CC duration isn't too hampered by not maxing it first.
Cho can go RoA > Tank and still do good damage. Not as much as Darius, but enough to kill people. Cho is just as immobile as Darius (inb4 "but darius r has a tiny dash hurr hurr).
Cho has better sustain in lane. Cho doesn't need any eHP modifiers he just gets straight HP. Cho can hit multiman Qs and Ws for huge CC durations.
Darius R is 100/200/300 base true damage. Each stack of bleed adds 20% more damage up to 100% extra damage making 600 base damage at 5 stacks. Cho can just press R for 300/475/650. And then Darius R adds 50% bonus AD when he doesn't build more than Cleaver really. Cho R has 70% AP.
Troll for Trump1 votes.5 s is a lot.
Cho ends up being less mobile because of cleaver ms buff. Cho runs in the middle of the fight and does nothing. Cho gets fed and does nothing. Darius doesn't.
Cho has worse sustain.
You need ehp modifiers to live in fights. Flat hp does nothing. Buy 6 warmogs and see what that does.
Darius's ult dmg was nerfed because he ends up getting more dmg with 5 stacks on passive, so that needs to be taken into account.
No point in picking cho unless you really need ap and silence
AirKingNeo3 votesI'd love Cho'Gath to be a tank. A tank who just has massive size with his ult. A true skillshot wall.
50000000000000001 votesThat would be an interesting counter against long range single target abilities, like Blitz, Thresh, Nautilus hooks, and also things like Nidalee spears. Maybe even small AoEs like Jayce's shock blast can be blocked. That said, Lee Sin would counter him pretty hard.
Orangesilk6 votesAlready does. He dodges your CC with ease and if he kicks you into your team it's a catastrophe.
TheI3igDaddy11 votesAP Cho was sleeper for a long time, since he has such great ratios on his spells. With this change...it'll definitely remove full AP Cho, but you could...still technically do it? I'd usually get Rod of Ages as a first item, followed by solely damage items like Rabby's and Abyssal.
Personally I'm more annoyed at the fact that Riot's been constantly upgrading /changing his ULT and not the weak-ass toggle spell that is never toggled off. He really needs some love for his E; even if it's a simple armor / MR buff when it's turned off, giving him SOME incentive to switch back and forth.
SH Azykan6 votesyou toggle it off when under the enemy tower if you dont wanna take aggro because half hp riven decided to walk into your aoe XD
Mogarl10 votesBuilding full ap on the giant hitbox with very unreliable damage outside of two melee range abilities leads to a very feast or famine experience. You either get so far ahead that your lack of resistances don't matter or you get ripped apart by any team with even the tiniest bit of coordination. Besides, AP cho builds a decent amount of health anyways so it'll more likely be a large buff for tank Cho than a nerf for Mage Cho.
Personally I build RoA and then tank unless I'm really ahead or their team has no hard CC. Even then though I'm always at a loss of what to build.
Just not that great anymore. Sure if you have other ap's on the team it'll be great, but otherwise a significant part of Cho's damage is true damage.
Since you have the slow on your Q the Rylais slow is just kinda ok. I kind of feel like if you need the slow you won't be able to use it, and if you can use the slow you probably don't need it. Without resistances I don't feel cho can survive long enough to utilise the slow on his spikes.
Again without resistances I don't see cho getting into range of a competent team and tagging someone more than once before dying.
It has armor and AP, but it's active isn't utilised by Cho the best. unless they have a key ability Cho wants to stasis for he won't find much use in it.
Imo Cho's problem is that he a horrifying aberration of Mage, Tank, and Juggernaut. I feel like Cho'Gath wants to be an AP Juggernaut, but there's far too much CC in his kit for that. When Cho eventually get's a VGU I hope they hone in towards a mage-juggernaut feel, with big spells with big cast times and big impacts.
LongHair Fox6 votesMost builds on chogath in higher divisions (even if he is rare) includes roa and typically one more health item in form of rylais, liandry or a tank item. They also tend to have relatively low amounts of ap, which is likely because most people simply build him with 1 or 2 tank items. Getting 600+ ap is only for extreme snowball and even than it is suboptimal. Sure it was good back in the day but they nerfed him to avoid that. In all typical build will have 400 ap or less meaning that you need 2.3 k bonus health... and you get more than 1k from your ult, 500 on roa so you need less than 800 health from runes, masteries and the rest of your 4 items (excluding boots).
That said I doubt they are finished with their ideas so sit tight and wait.
Big Lincoln4 votescho'gath is a mage and riot is wrong to try to kill that tbh
Ahristocats10 votesNop, he ain't a mage still a tank his primary role is tanking, secondary role is doing damage with some ap that's all
Troll for Trump8 votesIf you want him to tank for people make him actually have something to help with that.
All his cc is extremely delayed or telegraphed.
It's like the transparency Sion's kit, but Cho's kit is just worse at tanking than Sion's.
Supreme Senpai691 votesI can pretty much only play Cho'Gath into Riven or other similar champions. They have to come to me and in doing so they need to use their mobility.
Then ya murder them.
Between no mobility and insanely absurd mana costs that's all you can really do. But.. he's pretty good at that
Troll for Trump1 votesEven after that though, he becomes obsolete after teamfights.
You might say to capitalize on his early game and don't reach lategame.
But he doesn't have the prescence or tools to do that; it's not like pantheon.
Even when ahead, it's still often the better option to freeze the lane in front of your turret, because if you go past even the river, the jgler will come and destroy you. You're also punished a lot harder because of how his ult stacks work.
Pierce The Veal4 votesChanging AP ratio to bonus HP ratio, that'll kinda kill AP chogath. I don't care either way since I'm not a chogath player, but it's just something I was thinking about. Any cho players wanna provide input on how you feel about a change like that?
http://www.surrenderat20.net/2017/01/127-pbe-update.html#balance
Alright wtf.
That's a serious gut.
I don't want this shit revert it.
PB4UAME1 votes2k bonus hp ~ 343 AP.
Pierce The Veal1 votes2k bonus hp ~ 343 AP.
2k bonus HP is so damn easy to get oh boy.
But no really I don't want him to turn into a tank scaling.
PB4UAME1 votesWell, at 6 stacks he gets over 1k free hp, and then with two hp items you have 2k+ bonus hp; not to mention any health from runes (scaling hp is always solid, and sometimes I'll run % increased hp on Cho and a few others if I just need to get bulky) I dunno, 343 AP is several itesm worth (at least 3) and on Cho you can get more hp than that much AP for fewer slots and a lower gold cost-- not to mention as a big, beefy, immobile beefcake, Cho gets more out of the defenses than he does raw AP anyway.
PB4UAME1 votesThe one problem I have with the change in scaling, is now his basic spells and his ult have a different scaling mechanism. IF they added an hp ratio, even if it was only on his E, I would find it a better direction to send him in. As it is. . . not sure how it would play out, except that his basic abilities would likely feel weak without the AP, or his ult would if he opts for a mage build.
Pierce The Veal1 votesThe one problem I have with the change in scaling, is now his basic spells and his ult have a different scaling mechanism. IF they added an hp ratio, even if it was only on his E, I would find it a better direction to send him in. As it is. . . not sure how it would play out, except that his basic abilities would likely feel weak without the AP, or his ult would if he opts for a mage build.
Oh hi ;P
Yeah this is my main argument as well. The only hp ap items he could possibly consider are protobelt, rod of ages, and rylais (rylais not really that good).
Pierce The Veal2 votesWell, at 6 stacks he gets over 1k free hp, and then with two hp items you have 2k+ bonus hp; not to mention any health from runes (scaling hp is always solid, and sometimes I'll run % increased hp on Cho and a few others if I just need to get bulky) I dunno, 343 AP is several itesm worth (at least 3) and on Cho you can get more hp than that much AP for fewer slots and a lower gold cost-- not to mention as a big, beefy, immobile beefcake, Cho gets more out of the defenses than he does raw AP anyway.
However HP doesn't reward him from the rest of his abilities, as such, we lose his identity and give him the choice, build AP and do less damage from ult? Or build HP and have an amazing ult but crappy abilities. This change does nothing for him, except make it more annoying to carry out his playstyle.
Also he no longer gets up to 6 stacks from minions. Now it's up to 5 stacks.
PB4UAME1 votesBut he can stack infinitely at reduced value beyond that point, and no longer loses stacks. He still gets over 1k bonus hp from 6 stacks (at level 16+ at least) but can theoretically get even more now. :p
Pierce The Veal1 votesBut he can stack infinitely at reduced value beyond that point, and no longer loses stacks. He still gets over 1k bonus hp from 6 stacks (at level 16+ at least) but can theoretically get even more now. :p
Theoretically yes. The only thing that doesn't make this change horrible is that the stacks are permanent. I would still prefer that he kept the AP scaling though.
abbbez4 votesI hate that riot removes Different champion builds. Because no aparant reason, They could just have made it scale with the higher of the 2, lik If 12% of cho gaths hp exceeds 70% of his ap then it will scale of bonus hp and reverse.
Automated Riven4 votesdo people even play ap chogath? All i have ever seen is ROA into tank for like the last 2 years
Shuyin1783 votesI just did some geeky math stuff here. (NOTE : No Runes or Masteries are taken into account with these numbers, these are all base numbers + example numbers) A Cho'Gath with 600 AP (I don't know how much he'd normally end up with because I don't play AP Cho) does 420 extra damage with his ult (70% APR) for a total of 1070 True Damage. A Cho'Gath with 3834 HP (Level 18 [1934], 5 stacks Rank 3 Ult [900], fully stacked ROA [500], and Omen [500] as a baseline of HP) deals 460 extra damage with his ult (12% HPR) for a total of 1102 True Damage.
Ignoring AP Cho'Gath's ultimate, looking at the APRs on his kit (to make sure I did the math correctly) his Q is 100% APR, W 70% APR, and E per-auto attack is 30% APR. Even without the AP on his ult, he's still getting a lot of damage output. Level 18 [1934], 5 stacks Rank 3 Ult [900], fully stacked ROA [500], and Liandry's Torment [300] for AP Cho'Gath, that's still 3634 HP giving him 436 extra damage on his ult. This means that AP Cho'Gath with just this basic setup deals 1086 True Damage, with just 2 items deals a little more than 600 AP does at current.
I think Cho'Gath with HP Ratios is good for both Tank and AP variants. Will AP Cho'Gath with more than 600 AP suffer a little? Sure, but he won't be gutted by any means. Sure you probably won't deal as much Ult Damage as Tank Cho'Gath, but you are still dealing over 1000 True Damage with the base 5 stacks (which you can gain more than) and 2 items you should be building on him anyways.
Orangesilk3 votesYou did it wrong, it's not 12% HP, it's 12% BONUS HP.
Shuyin1781 votesIt's getting pulled anyways, so it doesn't really matter.
Orangesilk2 votesOh, phew, best news I've heard all year.
ProfDrDeath2 votesIt's getting pulled for 7.3, as Riot wants more time to iterate.
The changes will come back for 7.4.
Mostro Gallo1 votesWhere did it say it's getting pulled? I'm still seeing it on the most recent pbe build
Raid Boss Morde2 votesI was about to say... his ult is a lot weaker because it's a Bonus HP scaling, but someone already pointed that out. It's a damage nerf in general.
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesJust dropping in to echo thoughts that already got mentioned, but hopefully in a more clear way.
Having Cho split between building tank and AP has put him in a strange spot. I think it's obvious that Riot aims to increase his play rate and performance by making him more tank, less AP. Saying "AP on Cho sucks" isn't the right way to frame that. It's more that NEEDING AP on Cho makes him less viable.
So yes, I think they're choosing to emphasize his role as a tank, which will hopefully make him into a more accessible champ. If you disagree about that, that's fine. I just wanted to try to frame the discussion around the real issue.