@meddler "Courage of the colossus is still too strong"

Tychusfindlay919·Jan 6, 2017·121 votes·4,817 views

Right, and what the fuck will we be able to turn to when that gets nerfed again? We'll be back at where we started, where every keystone in the resolve tree sucks ass and nothing will want to go resolve anymore, even champions that are supposed to excel with it.

Grasp is barely noticeable and bond isn't even noticeable. Who knows how courage will be nerfed and whether or not it will become a pile of shit, but if it does, rest in peace the resolve tree.

104 Comments

ApocylipticJan 6, 201730 votes

The solution to a weak resolve tree isn't to let one ability remain overwhelming and unhealthy. Grasp isn't in a terrible spot at the moment, but yes, it needs a change in some way to make it a little stronger, and bond of stone should have been changed along with the health keystone during preseason in my opinion. They are both extremely similar, hard to notice and just a passive stat added on for doing little other than farming or being next to a teammate.

Tychusfindlay919Jan 6, 201733 votes

{quoted}

The solution to a weak resolve tree isn't to let one ability remain overwhelming and unhealthy. Grasp isn't in a terrible spot at the moment, but yes, it needs a change in some way to make it a little stronger, and bond of stone should have been changed along with the health keystone during preseason in my opinion. They are both extremely similar, hard to notice and just a passive stat added on for doing little other than farming or being next to a teammate.

Grasp is in a terrible spot. Not even darius uses grasp, and his bleed makes him one of the absolute most oppressive champions with grasp in theory and in practice (when grasp was strong).

ApocylipticJan 6, 20178 votes

Darius works with Fervor, CotC, and Stormraiders though. The only reason to ever take grasp on Darius and the remaining reason is for a stronger laning phase, but that quickly became replaced with Masteries that will give him a better mid and late game because his early game is already oppressive enough.

Doesn't mean it's bad though, it's definitely still good for lane, just outscaled too heavily to be considered worth it comparative to other keystones.

The objective should thus be to make grasp weaker in lane (why it was nerfed in the first place) and making it better for late game opponents. TLD already serves the purpose of an early game keystone, I don't know why Grasp should be like that as well.

Tychusfindlay919Jan 6, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Darius works with Fervor, CotC, and Stormraiders though. The only reason to ever take grasp on Darius and the remaining reason is for a stronger laning phase, but that quickly became replaced with Masteries that will give him a better mid and late game because his early game is already oppressive enough.

Doesn't mean it's bad though, it's definitely still good for lane, just outscaled too heavily to be considered worth it comparative to other keystones.

The objective should thus be to make grasp weaker in lane (why it was nerfed in the first place) and making it better for late game opponents. TLD already serves the purpose of an early game keystone, I don't know why Grasp should be like that as well.

There is no reason to take grasp. The new fervor provides just as strong if not a stronger laning phase, and CoC combats quick-trade top laners like riven and renekton better than grasp.

ApocylipticJan 6, 20177 votes

So I took a look into the stats, and Grasp is still the most commonly taken Keystone on Darius with a hefty winrate to boot: http://current.lolalytics.com/champion/Darius/

That means the whole statement was inaccurate to begin with. Fervor gives you better damage in trades, Grasp gives better sustain. In order for fervor to be better, you have to use it properly, and the same is said with grasp.

Tychusfindlay919Jan 6, 20175 votes

{quoted}

So I took a look into the stats, and Grasp is still the most commonly taken Keystone on Darius with a hefty winrate to boot: http://current.lolalytics.com/champion/Darius/

That means the whole statement was inaccurate to begin with. Fervor gives you better damage in trades, Grasp gives better sustain. In order for fervor to be better, you have to use it properly, and the same is said with grasp.

Darius's most common keystone is actually courage of the colossus.

http://champion.gg/champion/Darius/Top

ApocylipticJan 6, 20176 votes

Champion.gg takes stats from the first couple days in a patch, The link I provided updates daily with more in depth statistics in every case. Champion.gg has been outdated for quite some time comparative to other sites.

Grasp is taken 40% of the time, Colossus 26% of the time, but with a better winrate by 3%. Clearly Colossus is better, but that's simply because Grasp is in a weak spot and Colossus is overtuned.

Tychusfindlay919Jan 6, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Champion.gg takes stats from the first couple days in a patch, The link I provided updates daily with more in depth statistics in every case. Champion.gg has been outdated for quite some time comparative to other sites.

Even using your source, CoC is the highest win rate.

Look at any darius OTP streamer out there, dystrex in particular as he is in challenger and is probably the most prominent darius player in North America to date, and he almost never uses grasp.

HawkefireJan 8, 20171 votes

I attribute that (people still using grasp) to people that just haven't remembered to swap out the keystone for something better or they are simply reluctant to try new things. Grasp still works on Darius which would end up making it even harder to convince some people to change because it simply is the tried and true strat (albeight one of the weaker ones for Darius)

ZephyrDrakeJan 6, 201710 votes

{quoted}

Grasp is in a terrible spot. Not even darius uses grasp, and his bleed makes him one of the absolute most oppressive champions with grasp in theory and in practice (when grasp was strong).

Darius could care less about Grasp, the only reason he even took it was because there was nothing better and it was better than an extra 300 HP. He wants lane dominance and CotC gives him just that while the previous 300 mx HP mastery did not. Using Darius as an example is terrible because he will always pick whatever is stronger in lane

Tychusfindlay919Jan 6, 201713 votes

{quoted}

Darius could care less about Grasp, the only reason he even took it was because there was nothing better and it was better than an extra 300 HP. He wants lane dominance and CotC gives him just that while the previous 300 mx HP mastery did not. Using Darius as an example is terrible because he will always pick whatever is stronger in lane

Using darius is not a terrible example. It's his passive, that's mostly why he cared about grasp. It was such an effortless proc and when grasp wasn't shit, he took it, all the time.

ZephyrDrakeJan 6, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Using darius is not a terrible example. It's his passive, that's mostly why he cared about grasp. It was such an effortless proc and when grasp wasn't shit, he took it, all the time.

it is still a terrible example. Like i said he will pick whatever is strong laning wise and CotC right now is better whereas Grasp before had no competition whatsoever in the early game in the resolve tree. He can still proc Grasp as effortlessly as he wants but he might as well wait for the CotC CD so he actually outright wins the trades and take a lot less damage. Grasp is still pretty useful, it could get a minor buff but it's not going to receive anything major. What CotC needs is to have a scaling component that makes it not as good early but just about as strong, if not a but stronger, late.

TerchioJan 6, 20175 votes

He's basically got a kit dependent on %HP regeneration already (and therefore stacking HP synergizes with Grasp and his own kit together) and he has the range and utility to enforce such skirmishes easier than other tanky champions like Nasus and Garen. What is it that some other mystery champ has over him? Maybe Renekton? Would he finally synergize to you if Darius made it true damage or something? It already does magic damage on a completely physical damage kit, which is yet another thing... makes it even harder to build against him.

RivuoJan 6, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Grasp is in a terrible spot. Not even darius uses grasp, and his bleed makes him one of the absolute most oppressive champions with grasp in theory and in practice (when grasp was strong).

I mean what mastery does anyone have besides thunderlords to really go to

Tychusfindlay919Jan 6, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I mean what mastery does anyone have besides thunderlords to really go to

Fervor is really good on new darius (I'm projecting its pick rate to skyrocket with a lot of darii once they realize just how hard a fervor darius can fuck up a tank in lane and snowball now that it gives AD) and stormraiders has always been an underground favorite of a lot of dedicated darius mains.

Dominick DestineJan 6, 201719 votes

RIP in peace Resolve

TyrekGoldenspearJan 6, 20174 votes

Little redundant mate.

RIP stands for Rest In Peace, you don't need another "in peace" :P

WoonStruckJan 6, 201717 votes

Its a meme...lol

TyrekGoldenspearJan 6, 201712 votes

Returns from knowyourmeme

Well I feel dumb now. DX

Dominick DestineJan 6, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Returns from knowyourmeme

Well I feel dumb now.

Self-pwn'd.

RIP in peace.

MrWasjigJan 6, 201712 votes

The entire Resolve tree feels woefully underwhelming. I mean just look at Veteran's Scars, phew slow down I'm having trouble keeping up with bonus 50 flat health! And Siegemaster? Oh boy don't even get me started on SiegeMaster, an entire 8 Armour and Magic Resistance while standing near an ally tower? Why not just staple a piece of paper to your crotch while you're at it, just to be even more careful?

I could go on about plenty more but you get the idea at this point xP

Mystic ShovelJan 7, 20176 votes

Upvoted because lel, though I disagree with some things. The 50 flat health is as useless as a brick on the ocean floor... mid-late game. Early game, for supports, flat health is the single best defensive stat. I'm talking levels 1-6 here though, so I agree it could be made a little better. Siegemaster is notably for the same thing, early game defensive stats for supports, but in this case, ones who will be pushed against their tower in the lane. I.E, you're up against a Caitlyn/Karma lane. or Jhin/Zyra. Whilst I believe it could be made a little better, and Rito could push the stats up a bit, I don't believe it to be useless.

Resolve tree could do with some added life though, no doubt about it.

RalanrJan 6, 20179 votes

I'm expecting a good overhaul of resolve if they do a tank update.

Tychusfindlay919Jan 6, 20176 votes

{quoted}

I'm expecting a good overhaul of resolve if they do a tank update.

Hopefully, I'm already finding myself playing ARK survival evolved more than league right now as it stands.

GesterrJan 6, 20172 votes

If you're upset about the state of league and lack of variety in viable gameplay, then prepare your noose for the miserable game design of Wildcard Studios, Ark had so much potential but is just a mess of a game

Tychusfindlay919Jan 6, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kIqEEIdv,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-06T20:01:50.083+0000)

If you're upset about the state of league and lack of variety in viable gameplay, then prepare your noose for the miserable game design of Wildcard Studios, Ark had so much potential but is just a mess of a game

I've had ark for over a year now, I know Wildcard's antics, and I'm in a privately run server instead of an official one, so I have a lot more freedom about what things to incoporate not only from Ark but from mods in the community. That's more than league could ever offer at this point.

ElikainJan 8, 20171 votes

League wasn't intended to be run with mods. Not sure what that comparison was all about.

You can "customize" your own League experience by not playing the meta picks. Just like you have to physically install your own mods, you have to physically engage your brain and try something new if you want variety. It's like you expect that variety should fall in your lap. You have a lot of options in League but the difference is that you don't want to go out of your way to experience them. And that isn't Riot's fault.

Tychusfindlay919Jan 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

League wasn't intended to be run with mods. Not sure what that comparison was all about.

You can "customize" your own League experience by not playing the meta picks. Just like you have to physically install your own mods, you have to physically engage your brain and try something new if you want variety. It's like you expect that variety should fall in your lap. You have a lot of options in League but the difference is that you don't want to go out of your way to experience them. And that isn't Riot's fault.

The comparison is that one game is getting funner than the other. Everything is fair game.

ElikainJan 7, 20172 votes

You already have a lot of variety in League except that sheep will always be sheep and will never think for themselves. They'd rather have pros dictate what they play and would rather conform to the meta instead of trying things out for themselves.

Bot Ziggs is one example. He was pretty OK from the very start and yet it took people so much fucking brainstorming to try something new on bot. Turns out that he isn't anything special, he's a ranged mage that works quite well and can take a Marksman's place. Any mage can do that. You can take LB bot and she'd still do good with a support. The point is that no people are going to do that unless a super high ELO player does it and it's popularized - therefore OK to integrate into the "existing" meta.

A meta isn't law. It's more of a guideline that pushes popular picks into the spotlight, leaving the rest in the shadows. And as soon as people stop treating meta as law, the sooner we can have even more variety in League instead of blaming Riot for their unwillingness to artificially change it.

BlueBilberryJan 6, 20178 votes

Could it be that someone once again wants tanks to be irrelevant? Again? Who else is going to counter the Dariuses, Rivens, Yasuos, and Camilles on top lane?

Oh that's right - I forgot all about him: Teemo

Alorrin01Jan 6, 20176 votes

This just in: Riot trying to push players away from tanks. In other news, scientists have determined the Sun is hot.

Seriously, in Riots ideal world each team fight would last about 3 seconds with each team seeing who could 100-0 the other in under that.

RexSaurJan 6, 20175 votes

Yeah instead it should stay broken as fuck like it is right now.

Oh yeah i forgot this board is made of low elo tank mains.

WoonStruckJan 6, 20176 votes

Meanwhile almost every 'high elo' person on the boards disagrees with you on pretty much everything.

ForgiveColourJan 6, 20172 votes

You mean the eune top lane main? LUL

GULAG 4 UJan 6, 20173 votes

I am d5 trasgcab si un right sit down brobnz kid

typical boards argument

BlueBilberryJan 6, 20177 votes

{quoted}

I am d5 trasgcab si un right sit down brobnz kid

typical boards argument

Silly me - I thought this was the English board. :p

HongChongDongJan 6, 20175 votes

I still say they should remove bond of stone and perseverance and make a dedicated keystone to healing and sustain with in the resolve tree. If it was going to be a passive stat then I'd want that at the very least.

Resonance x LFTJan 7, 20175 votes

You cannot deny that it literally breaks Poppy and Nautilus. Keystones dictate the meta. The game was much better before them. Maybe if the shield for CCing one enemy was nerfed, but CCing multiple champions got a bigger shield?

ElikainJan 8, 20171 votes

The game was much better before them.

Not it wasn't. Because the old masteries were all about stat checks and invisible power given to champions and the difference now is that you see the impact of Keystones while in the old masteries, you didn't see anything.

It's a matter of perception. And i don't deny that Keystones don't have anything in common with the old T6 masteries but again, the point is in the visibility. Now you can see how much Keystones contribute and before them you couldn't.

Mecha IncognitoJan 7, 20175 votes

Remember when they said "we'll buff other keystones, but keep thunderlord's decree at it's current power and bring everything else up to it's level".

But when it comes to tank masteries:

NERF IT. IT MUST DIEE!!!

TyrekGoldenspearJan 6, 20174 votes

With Knight's Vow as an item, Bond could stand to be replaced by something else imo.

Blumpkin NationJan 6, 20174 votes

I honestly think they should take Knight's Vow and turn that into a Resolve Mastery instead of Bond of Stone. Of course, it would get some reduction in stats to make up for it being a mastery but at least a tank-duo lane can feel good about having a choice between COTC and Knight's Vow.

BlueBilberryJan 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blumpkin Nation,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kIqEEIdv,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-01-06T17:06:48.653+0000)

I honestly think they should take Knight's Vow and turn that into a Resolve Mastery instead of Bond of Stone. Of course, it would get some reduction in stats to make up for it being a mastery but at least a tank-duo lane can feel good about having a choice between COTC and Knight's Vow.

Puzzled why "Bond of Stone" is not being regarded as a good choice for a tank duo-botlane. Most of the current support items are heavy health-boosting - including Knight's Vow and Redemption. Heck, put Sion or Tahm Kench (heck, why not Mundo?) in bottom lane, give them "BoS" and suddenly you could have a very strong duo.

Blumpkin NationJan 9, 20171 votes

Because it goes unnoticed. You don't truly get to see how much of a help it is to you or your ally. I also feel like due to the nature of the mastery, the coding may not function properly and who would even know? There isn't a buff icon showing how much you negated.

BlueBilberryJan 10, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blumpkin Nation,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kIqEEIdv,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2017-01-09T16:43:08.536+0000)

Because it goes unnoticed. You don't truly get to see how much of a help it is to you or your ally. I also feel like due to the nature of the mastery, the coding may not function properly and who would even know? There isn't a buff icon showing how much you negated.

Come to think of it - there is no stat for damage mitigation/protected on the post-game screen either.

General Esdeath Jan 6, 20174 votes

I still don't think it's broken at all unless you ult as Amumu or Malphite and hit multiple people and FOR SOME REASON they try to attack you.

SpoofghoulJan 7, 20172 votes

not to mention the cc prevents them from attacking your shield for half of its duration

Peng0dJan 6, 20173 votes

I hope you know that Riot won't answer you with your terrible attitude. I don't understand why you would even bother posting at all. That's the main issue with some of the board's community. People don't understand how to properly communicate. Riot puts out a post talking about their goals and some stuff they want to work on, and people like you go and blow up for absolutely no reason at all than to just insight an issue. You won't get a response from Riot, you won't get decent respect, all you gain are some upvotes that mean nothing.

Gregor GysiJan 6, 20172 votes

COTC is OP and needs to be nerfed, period. It's super popular right now, not only with tanks, but also with champions like Vi and Riven. You say that the resolve tree sucks, but it's actually dominating right now given that non-resolve-like champions go into resolve. If nerfing it to the point where it's not appealing to squieshies any more makes other tanks turn to Grasp then that's a clear indicator that Resolve is actually quite strong.

4th3t0sJan 7, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=404 shitlord,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kIqEEIdv,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-01-06T23:05:05.070+0000)

COTC is OP and needs to be nerfed, period. It's super popular right now, not only with tanks, but also with champions like Vi and Riven. You say that the resolve tree sucks, but it's actually dominating right now given that non-resolve-like champions go into resolve. If nerfing it to the point where it's not appealing to squieshies any more makes other tanks turn to Grasp then that's a clear indicator that Resolve is actually quite strong.

Given your examples, it really calls into question why hypermobile fighters and divers have hard CC in the first place.