Remember when "the legendary five man bot gank" was a bronze tactic?

Tychusfindlay919·Jan 4, 2017·155 votes·6,420 views

Now it spans all elos, this meta is ass.

94 Comments

RivuoJan 4, 201777 votes

You mean to tell me the 5 man bot taking my first blood tower, both my summoners, killing both me and my support, then taking dragon and leaving me without the ability to farm because now i have no tower to run to incase something happens, putting me extremely behind in terms of CS and gold as one of the most gold dependent classes..

isn't healthy..?

RalanrJan 4, 20176 votes

Yes. Having the entire game hung on which bot lane carry gets fed or shut down first isn't healthy.

Because the game revolves around the carries being able to output the most sustained dps to take structures and objectives quickly. Ziggs bot only comes because he can push towers faster and set the enemy carry back in farm, killing two birds with one bomb.

People don't like the impact that ADCs have on the game and it's gotten to the point where the main goal is to shut them down so hard that they forget they have impact at all.

It's not healthy, but I can't say it isn't justified.

WoonStruckJan 4, 201730 votes

...that's not why people are ganging up on bot, sorry to say.

Weaker tower
gold/exp from 2 kills > gold/exp from 1 kill(used to be one of two reasons to dog-pile bot)
Dragon (other reason to dog-pile bot)
First tower gold
Denying gold/exp to the two classes most dependent on it to not end up a liability in the game currently due to damage creep.

Before the strength of ADC/support didn't ride on getting a heavy advantage...due to keystones/masteries and current itemization, other classes spike much faster than both, meaning you have to get ahead and also not fall behind in order to be a significant factor in the current meta.

Before, the jungle wasn't insanely over-tuned.

Before you didn't have a significantly weaker bot tower

Before we didn't have first tower gold with its 70%+ win rate.

If Riot managed to put all of those eggs (and a stronger herald) outside of '2 champions' in the top lane basket without support/ADC being moved up there instead, you'd see 3 man ganks top 24/7; maybe 4 with the support roam.

salty testiJan 4, 20173 votes

[deleted]

WoonStruckJan 4, 20177 votes

Pro scene analysts kept spouting that number; said its even similar in ranked.

I'm not sure where the data was found, but I'm assuming it was Riot's data if only the Riot analysts know its source.

DrCyanideJan 5, 20172 votes

League of Graphs tracks the statistic in their Infographics. Here's the one for 6.24

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/infographics/patch-6-24-infographics

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/img/infographics/patch-6-24.jpg?t=412097

While it is 71% or so, a comparison around the time the change to first tower gold was made makes it seem like it was about 70% then too.

Tychusfindlay919Jan 4, 20172 votes

{quoted}

...that's not why people are ganging up on bot, sorry to say.

Weaker tower

gold/exp from 2 kills > gold/exp from 1 kill(used to be one of two reasons to dog-pile bot)

Dragon (other reason to dog-pile bot)

First tower gold

Denying gold/exp to the two classes most dependent on it to not end up a liability in the game currently due to damage creep.

Before the strength of ADC/support didn't ride on getting a heavy advantage...due to keystones/masteries and current itemization, other classes spike much faster than both, meaning you have to get ahead and also not fall behind in order to be a significant factor in the current meta.

Before, the jungle wasn't insanely over-tuned.

Before you didn't have a significantly weaker bot tower

Before we didn't have first tower gold with its 70%+ win rate.

If Riot managed to put all of those eggs (and a stronger herald) outside of '2 champions' in the top lane basket without support/ADC being moved up there instead, you'd see 3 man ganks top 24/7; maybe 4 with the support roam.

Before the dragon update it was a nice buff but not something that could make or break games (infernal drake...).

Glory ln DeathJan 4, 20172 votes

The only impact that bot tower not having Fortification has on bot lane getting focused is how everyone conveniently forgets that top and mid turrets lose Fortification at 5 minutes.

After 5 minutes, top and mid fall just as quickly as bot. But people just focus in on how "bot tower is the weakest tower, so let's go get that one!". The other reasons are still there, but Fortification really has no effect outside of ignorance-induced placebo.

5000000000000000Jan 4, 20174 votes

While you are right that other towers are just as weak after 5 minutes, bot lane generally doesn't have an amazing waveclear, so it's easier to siege than mid. Is also better to dive than top because there's a dragon botside.

Glory ln DeathJan 4, 20171 votes

My point is simply that the Fortification has nothing to do with the "bot lane clown fiesta". All the other stated reasons are true, just as they have been since the ADC/Support duo bot lane meta started.

Bot lane tower isn't going down first because it's weaker than the others. It's going down first because it's the most valuable tower to take out due to its location near dragon and the possibility of 2 kills rather than 1.

It's been like that for years - bot lane has always been the most common tower to fall first. Tower first blood has just sped up the push to knock it down.

XonraJan 5, 20173 votes

"My point is simply that the Fortification has nothing to do with the "bot lane clown fiesta""

Except you are still wrong, because people are still 4 man ganking before 5 minutes. And you are near 100% getting ganks before 3 with or without the jungler. Usually just 1 kill from a jungler ganking is enough to pull the mid laner down at that point, and still a free tower, and WAY easier tower dive.

You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

Glory ln DeathJan 5, 20171 votes

Yeah, no. In my personal experience (which, obviously, won't necessarily hold true for everyone), I might have one of the junglers gank bot before 5 minutes ~50% of my games. And I might have the midlaner in bot lane before 5 minutes in ~10% of my games.

I really can't think of many games where my team has lost bot tower before 10 minutes. It happens, sure, but not very often. If you're having so much trouble with early ganks and tower dives, play champions who punish dives and start warding around 3 - 3:30.

XonraJan 5, 20171 votes

Giving someone the advice of playing a champ that is just good for avoiding tower dives in laning phase, is not really anywhere near a good solution just to be blunt.

The rest just seems some awkward form of subjective and likely wrong truthfully, unless you haven't played much in a month. As you will only post on an alt for some reason, who knows what's what there.

Also, this is amusing you responded to this seeing as you apparently "don't actually make posts in Gameplay much" and have like 10 responses in this thread alone, that are all bad and downvoted. Hence how I remembered you for doing so in the other thread where I called you out on mostly making bad responses in response to balance and gameplay and being downvoted.

Glory ln DeathJan 5, 20172 votes

The advice is: Since you seem to have trouble with the early game, you should probably learn to adjust in order to deal with it. Apparently, you can't do that with your normal champion pool, otherwise you wouldn't be having this issue. So expand your champion pool and adapt to the meta.

There's really only two "solutions" to your problem: Adapt to the meta by learning how to avoid ganks and punish dives without dying or create openings so that your own team is the one doing the ganking and diving.

And, just as my own experience is subjective, so is yours. Maybe you have been experiencing an unusual number of early ganks and dives recently. I haven't. That is my experience with my games. The same goes for everyone else posting here on the Boards. They are providing their own, subjective, experiences.

This is the same issue as with Dynamic Queue: people who don't care about these early dives or who don't experience them aren't going to post about them. So, of course Gameplay is flooded with posts about early dives and towers bot lane, while there aren't posts about the lack of them. It doesn't change the fact that plenty of people aren't experiencing it. Bot lane Ziggs has been flooding the Boards the past few days, but I have yet to see a Ziggs in any position for the last few weeks.

And, in case you were wondering, this is called a "comment". Not a "post". I'll comment in Gameplay occasionally, but I don't post here. And when you are stating an opinion that is contrary to the circlejerk Gameplay post, you're going to get downvoted. It's not a surprise. That's why Gameplay is called the "salt mine". It's just annoying how people still don't understand how Fortification works.

SaltPatrolJan 5, 20172 votes

I couldn't help myself, the feel of ignorance just crept up on me too quickly. Did you really just compare this this bot lane/damage creep to DynaQ? Considering that rito all but damn near set it on fire and walked away after an entire season of f&$?ery? Just because you don't have an issue with something and you choose not to post about it, doesn't mean the issue is irrelevant; people like you did the same stuff when the "squeaky few" about DynaQ argument was going on. The vast majority of the players didn't even realize what DynaQ was or why it was a problem, not because they didn't think it was bad, but because ignorant nay sayers like you don't care enough to validate both sides of an argument. DynaQ was an abortion which is the EXACT reason why it was dropped for a (arguably the most) competitive multiplayer game. Rito saw it, I mean it took their bumpkin a@&es almost a year with literally thousands of posts from cross generational league members. As with any meta the game has shifted in an unforeseeable direction which is why we even have a preseason because we know we are going to get screwed down by dramatic gameplay shifts. I will say this, considering this is maybe my first post on this profile. I watch the boards relatively regularly, and I would say the majority of commenters/posters are pretty regular, although it's impossible to truly represent the majority when the majority really could give a f$?& less about where the game goes, I see that a lot of boards posters, even some of the trolls, click baiters, and generally whiny b!$&?es; they are generally more informed about the current state of the game and/or gameplay than anyone that I could randomly queue with in game.

As a current meta, which it is; but the reasons of which have yet to only remain speculative. It is utterly naive to think that the vast majority of players are not experiencing the grievances of the current "freelo" feels. Just like Sej and the cinder hulk drop, " blah.. Blah.. Blah.. People are also not making negative comments about it, blah.. So it must be good! "

That is probably the most benign way of attempting to validate an argument and I feel genuinely egregious that in this informed era, one of the more technically intensive games on the market right now, that you can justify a lack of argument with a position of lacking opposing arguments, by lacking an actual argument because as you say it is your own perspective..

Hopefully they rebuff my man Shen, guy because boy do you need a #StandUnited

AnidanJan 5, 20172 votes

On the one hand, this. On the other hand, it's important to remember that regardless of how technical the game is you're never going to get past the hurdle that most gamers view this as a fun hobby that doesn't really have any effect on the rest of their lives, hence why they don't generally care much about what direction a game takes. It goes somewhere they don't like? They leave for another game - there's plenty of other games out there, there's even competition in the MOBA market if they care to stay in this genre. If a game dies, they may reminisce a bit with other people who played and then they move on, none the worse for wear, while only the most dedicated fans will go out of their way to preserve it because, again, fun hobby with no effect on the rest of their lives.

Just pointing that out. It's hard to really justify getting onto someone for not being invested enough in their game of choice knowing that. It's hardly reasonable to expect most people to be invested in the current state of the game, because there's nothing exactly keeping us invested besides sunken cost fallacies and enjoyment of the game, but enjoyment doesn't require constant up-to-date knowledge; in fact, it's sometimes better if you don't have that because then you don't have to worry about missteps of the company and what that might mean in the long term. After all, ignorance is bliss. I have a few friends that play League, but I guarantee that they don't know as much as I do about the current state of the game, and I don't even play League anymore, I just like to stay up-to-date on League information for some reason.

SaltPatrolMar 15, 20171 votes

Old af comment, but liking it for tenacity and all around gentlemanliness. +1 from the SaltPatrol

EedatJan 4, 20172 votes

Denying gold/exp to the two classes most dependent on it to not end up a liability in the game currently due to damage creep.

What? Support is the least Gold and XP dependent. ADC is gold dependent, not XP dependent. That is the actual reason they lane together in the first place lol

WoonStruckJan 4, 20174 votes

I said most dependent on it to not end up a liability due to damage creep. As in they'll be so squishy and starved of their usual HP items, heals, and shields that they essentially won't function without dying.

You cannot deny this. If you fall behind as support, it almost feels like there's nothing you can do, especially if the other support has either locket/redemption first.

ADCs ARE level dependent this season, just not for damage. Its for survivability. If they fall behind in levels, they will get instantly gibbed again, and again, and again.

That HP/armor makes a HUGE difference in whether or not an ADC dies in a fight due to how much damage is tacked onto everything now.

EedatJan 4, 20173 votes

Thats still not correct. Supports and ADCs are the least XP reliant. A tank or melee champ is FAR less useful when behind. They dont have a frontline to stay behind because they ARE the frontline.

I have no idea what you're talking about as falling behind as support. Almost all of a support's income is earned passively and their builds are super cheap. Hands down the most useful class when behind.

Tychusfindlay919Jan 5, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Thats still not correct. Supports and ADCs are the least XP reliant. A tank or melee champ is FAR less useful when behind. They dont have a frontline to stay behind because they ARE the frontline.

I have no idea what you're talking about as falling behind as support. Almost all of a support's income is earned passively and their builds are super cheap. Hands down the most useful class when behind.

Tanks are usually the most useful class when behind because of their kits which are always relevant due to CC which gold has no bearing on.

RalanrJan 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Tanks are usually the most useful class when behind because of their kits which are always relevant due to CC which gold has no bearing on.

Sadly it feels like only Poppy is actually fufilling that requirement and everyone hates it.

RivuoJan 4, 20179 votes

{quoted}

Yes. Having the entire game hung on which bot lane carry gets fed or shut down first isn't healthy.

It's not though, Not at all. It's whoever fucks bot first and gets fed off it.

I've been 9-0 as caitlyn and 1-10 as caitlyn

12-0 as vayne and 0-12 as vayne.

Made no impact on the game sometimes, i've seen adcs on both teams have absolutely no impact on winning a team fight.

Go watch high elo streams, its not rare to see both adcs 3-7.

Right now it's a liability to have an adc and people know that. It's whoever does the most damage and... dies after

NuparuJan 5, 20174 votes

I can't believe a 12-0 Vayne would make no impact on the game. Maybe a bit of an exaggeration there, but I've seen some pretty ahead carries do absolutely nothing before.

It's the worst when you feed a Jhin or a Miss Fortune a bunch of kills and they just get run the fuck over by a bruiser in a fight. That's some depressing shit right there.

RivuoJan 5, 20174 votes

{quoted}

I can't believe a 12-0 Vayne would make no impact on the game. Maybe a bit of an exaggeration there, but I've seen some pretty ahead carries do absolutely nothing before.

It's the worst when you feed a Jhin or a Miss Fortune a bunch of kills and they just get run the fuck over by a bruiser in a fight. That's some depressing shit right there.

The game in which i was 12-0 was against Gangplank Anivia

The problem was any form of engage was immediately disengaged on and any team fight was me getting harassed with huge AOE that didnt allow me to position properly. GP ult + barrels + anivia R + wall

Then you got 3 other teammates one of em brand support who adds to the AOE hell hole.

There are times where even a 30-0 vayne cant do anything. It's just a fact.

Leo1024Jan 4, 201736 votes

I was Bronze 1 last season and let me just say..

It's bronze, we have no tactics

GULAG 4 UJan 5, 20174 votes

There is one, it's the yasuos and yis thinking they're john wick and 1v5ing

RalanrJan 4, 201721 votes

And to think they nerfed teleport to lessen it.

#HA

XonraJan 5, 20171 votes

Sadly you don't even need top to be involved anymore (not that they aren't ever). Is so easy for some champs to shove the wave early mid then just roam, instead of Top even being involved.

Is kind of sad lol

RalanrJan 5, 20173 votes

Top lane is a palm tree island.

XonraJan 5, 20172 votes

And as a top laner (who mostly plays Rumble funny enough), I love it.

mr Boombastic787Jan 5, 20171 votes

I love it on paradise Island, ending up 9 1 0 after lane as Kled, only to relise the team stats are 11 to 35

XonraJan 6, 20171 votes

Unfortunately there is a lot of that. And 9 times out of 10, probably about 17 of those deaths (if not more) are just the bot lane.

mr Boombastic787Jan 6, 20171 votes

I know its always the botlane! Everyone always says if Yasuo is on our team he sucks and feeds and is about 0 13 but if he is on the enemy team he is about 14 0. I feel the same way about botlaners. (it might be because I dont know how to tp gank properly xD)

RainbowIceeJan 5, 20171 votes

is the perfect lane for PvE champs like tryn and nasus. Oh what's that flashing on my screen.... should i care ?

Minions/tower ? Yes
Something else ? nah.
About to get gank? let me think about it

mr Boombastic787Jan 5, 20171 votes

Yes
Destroy anything in my way.
Double kill!

Colgate GatorJan 4, 20178 votes

The difference between it being a bronze tactic and meta is because what you do after it happens.

As a bronze tactic, everyone goes for the greed kill and then just derp about. As a meta tactic, they kill the botlane, take tower and then dragon. It's a nice power shift, specially with the first tower bonus.

XonraJan 5, 20172 votes

Funny thing is, that is the current meta and sadly expected to just have to claw back.

A year ago that is where most pro teams would have called /ff in all chat and restarted the scrim.

Hexs FortuneJan 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Postal Badger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VPAWBP6R,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-01-04T19:01:11.464+0000)

The difference between it being a bronze tactic and meta is because what you do after it happens.

As a bronze tactic, everyone goes for the greed kill and then just derp about. As a meta tactic, they kill the botlane, take tower and then dragon. It's a nice power shift, specially with the first tower bonus.

I'm in bronze and have had countless games where people 3-5 man gank bot, take tower then drag

abdul569Jan 4, 20176 votes

remember when double ADC bot was considered a bronze tactic? didn't stop LCS. cough MF support cough

Ariel the CruelJan 4, 201717 votes

cough MF support cough

One of the best things to ever come out of LCS. I spent many games shitting on MF supports and enjoying the freelo. XD

~ A Support main.

MAGA MAN X 2020Jan 5, 20172 votes

MF support is good and only good into zyra. Playing it into literally any other matchup is just giving away a free lane.

KynamiJan 5, 20172 votes

It actually can be used against a couple other lanes as well...

But what makes it work is the ADC having a strong utility. Ashe works because she actually has that stun.

Trying to play that MF into Zyra without an ADC with matching utility to ensure lane safety is just asking for the jungler and mid to come and fiesta for a free tower.

mr Boombastic787Jan 5, 20171 votes

Bronze tactic? HAHA! srsly we just steal eachothers lanes and flame.

Spice POWAHJan 4, 20174 votes

Now all we need is the Legendary Quintuple Marksman team comp to become meta, where everyone builds Thornmail and Rammus and Malphite are perma-banned.

KassimilaJan 4, 20174 votes

This is an issue of people refusing to 'change the meta' until they see someone in challenger do it.

Example #1: ADCs are crying about assassins killing them in 1-2 hits. The logical course of action would be to take exhaust instead of heal, but because heal is meta, they take heal.

Example #2: Why not 'lane swap' top and bot. Put the 2 man lane with the stronger tower and AWAY from the dragon objective. They don't because....they want the people near dragon for when their team 5 mans bot. It's give and take.

My last point here, ADCs are crying about their glass cannons being shattered. The fact is it's the only role in the game that can pretty much just faceroll the same 5-6 items every game. Every other role has to build some form of defense, they have to hit tab and look at what the enemy team is building, who is fed, etc. Perhaps it's time for ADCs to join the club, and if yer getting popped throw item 3053 or item 3156 into your build to stop from exploding. I will say however perhaps some AD version of item 3157 wouldn't be the worst idea in the world.

GiantEnemyShacoJan 4, 20174 votes

Yeah, the anti-bot meta is kind of AIDS. I used to love playing ADC but now every game is nothing but a clown fiesta.

XonraJan 5, 20175 votes

I used to love playing Support.

I feel like a big pointless bag of hit points having to baby sit what is essentially a now useless class for the first 10 minutes of the game. I'm sometimes actively happy when we lose first turret so I don't have to be stuck at the hip of ADCS right now.

Playing support is pretty annoying right now, as you are guaranteed it eventually with stupid autofill.