Ezreal is not broken, but I always found this interaction to be bullshit

Tychusfindlay919·Feb 27, 2017·90 votes·6,384 views

If the ~~demacian~~ Piltovian (thanks ralanr) bitchboi sees any kind of hook going his way all he has to do is start the animation of his E and then he gets to cancel the hook and continues to be that asshole that Q spams you.

"man I finally found a good position to snatch ezreal after two minutes of back and forth, now is my time to shine! Nvm im fucking useless.

AHA YOURE IN MY GRASP! Oh wait, you E'd to your turret so if I Q2 im ded.

How the hell did you even let me get this close to you? Oh well, feel my noxian wrath! Wait what... RIOT TOLERATES COWARDICE?!?!?

Make the cast time interruptible by making it a small channel instead of a cast time.

95 Comments

RalanrFeb 27, 201747 votes

Correction: Piltovian bitchboi.

Legacy HydralphaFeb 28, 201731 votes

Correction: Taric's bitchboi

EedatFeb 27, 201717 votes

Need some cheese with that spaghetti code?

Photos of GhostsFeb 28, 20177 votes

It's intended in this case, they want him to be safe.

AhristocatsFeb 27, 201713 votes

congrat son

you discovered what's a blink

The KDA is a lieFeb 27, 201729 votes

Well he's not complaining about the blink, but rather about the fact that it would only be fair for Ezreal to be grabbed if he hasn't blinked yet and is still in his E cast time. Most champions'spells get cancelled if they are interrupted while in cast time, so bringing ezreal in line with everyone only seems fair to me.

AhristocatsFeb 27, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Well he's not complaining about the blink, but rather about the fact that it would only be fair for Ezreal to be grabbed if he hasn't blinked yet and is still in his E cast time.

it doesn't matter, either you make his blink instant or you give it a cast time the result is the same, because you can't stop cast times in league

Tychusfindlay919Feb 27, 201711 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=es0v2r6G,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2017-02-27T19:33:38.016+0000)

it doesn't matter, either you make his blink instant or you give it a cast time the result is the same, because you can't stop cast times in league

Hence the suggestion to make it an interruptible short channel instead of a cast time.

AnidanFeb 28, 201711 votes

Except, why? It would force Ezreal's blink to have a different interaction than other blinks and also make his very unreliable compared to them. Ezreal's blink isn't even the only mobility option with this behavior - anyone with a cast time attached to their mobility can do the exact same thing. This behavior is even present in attacks with a cast time, as seen most easily in Lux's ult.

This sounds like you do think he's somehow broken, or at the very least find the concept of cast times in League broken, and this is the proposition you'd give to fix him (since, again, he doesn't hold a monopoly on this interaction). This isn't a QoL change, this isn't even minor given his reliance on his blink for his playstyle: this would be a straight-up nerf for Ezreal.

kile147Feb 28, 20176 votes

It's not broken because it's working as intended and as usual for spells of this type. It's still unintuitive behavior for a blink to have though because most blinks in the game don't have a noticeable cast time.

It's similar to how Darius used to be able to apprehend targets that had already flashed. It wasn't broken because it followed the rules for abilities of that nature, but it was really weird and was a particularly stupid interaction for that spell because the spell wasn't a set displacement but a full positional reset, meaning that it completely negated the flash.

They fixed the Darius issue by changing how AoE spells chose targets, and doing a similar pass to cast times would be nice because there's a lot of unintuitive interactions with cast time that could be improved. It could certainly affect the balance of some champs, but maybe they should be balanced around more intuitive mechanics anyways.

AnidanMar 1, 20171 votes

Well, what do we consider to be intuitive..? Coming from DotA, this looks fairly intuitive to me. A blink generally operates in 2 ways: it's instant and therefore this point is moot, or it's associated with a cast time in which case it then depends on how the game engine handles functions to determine whether or not it's intuitive. In DotA a stun will interrupt all actions, meaning casting time is an inherent balance feature for something that's inherently strong (see: Anti-Mage Blink cast time), and in League it's generally used similarly but the game handles the operations differently. A stun (the relevant operator in this problem) does not interrupt cast times in League because then you have some champions getting interrupted during very vital moments of gameplay for their kit, which feels great for the one applying the CC but the person getting interrupted feels cheated by what will essentially be blind chance in 9/10 cases.

League is balanced in such a way that, compared to its predecessor, it appeals to more "casual" players (League players aren't inherently casual, I just don't have a good term for players who prefer less frustrating and punishing gameplay) who don't want the frustration associated with a more difficult and punishing game while maintaining a similar playstyle. For this to be maintained it generally means that the frustration is moved against the aggressor rather than the defender because it tends to be easier to fluster a defender whose defense was busted through by chance than an aggressor who was stopped by the same (this is converse to dodge vs. crit where the general feeling is that dodge feels far worse to go against than crit - for different reasons, but that's a separate conversation unto itself). Most people would rather their defenses and combos flowed smoothly than if they were easily able to be broken by a "Combo Breaker" type of attack.

So then, why is the interaction of Ezreal's blink intuitive given League? Because it's in a game that stepped away from more punishing gameplay and went more towards flowing and forgiving gameplay. Ezreal's E would be unintuitive... if it was in DotA, because if it worked similarly over there then it wouldn't make sense since Anti-Mage has a blink with a cast time and he is stopped. However, Ezreal and Kassadin can both escape Blitz hooks by using their blinks because League is forgiving with cast times, and that stretches for attacks, too. It's worth remembering that a lot of things in this game have a cast time, not just those blinks and Lux's ult. To allow stuns to cancel cast times means that anything with any sort of cast time that gets caught during the stun will be instantly canceled, just like in DotA. But only the vocal people who want less forgiving gameplay actually want to deal with the consequences of changing how cast times interact with CC in this game.

The reason Lee seems like he's so hated by the boards but loved by everyone I know that doesn't frequent the boards? He fully embodies what League is about: fast-paced forgiving gameplay that's easy to pick up and hard to master. He embodies everything they consider League to be.

kile147Mar 1, 20171 votes

I agree that making the entire punishment on the defender would result in frustrating gameplay.

That being said don't give the illusion of choice when there really isn't one. Why does Lee's ult have a stun associated with it? Why can I hook Ezreal if he gets away no matter what? Why does it still let me CC Lux/Ez during their ults if they can't actually be stopped?

By doing a pass on cast times I mean they shouldn't just overall make them interruptible but look at the reason each spell was given a cast time and see if there's a better way to do it. Ez and Kass's blinks should either be interruptible by CC or instant, balance accordingly. Lee's kick should either not stun so I can reposition, or be instant so I don't feel like there should be an opportunity to do so. Lux and Ez ults should be channels, interruptible by CC (which I think is fair since they are long range abilities that if being used in a CC-able situation are being misued) or make them channels that give CC immunity and display "immune" when you try to displace, silence, polymorph, or stun them.

AnidanMar 1, 20171 votes

I don't honestly think it's "illusion of choice" in the case of Ezreal v Blitzcrank because it's more of a situation that you have to approach differently as Blitz. Ezreal's pick acts as a check, but Blitzcrank can play around that, he just has to do so differently than against other laners. Blitzcrank should approach the situation more around "how can I get him to use his E early?" or "If he's saving E for my hook, would it be possible to bait it out by running up to him and trying to punch him or zone him by the chance that I can hook?" It's not an illusion of choice because Blitz, while having some options neutered, isn't left entirely devoid of meaningful play even on his end. I can tell you from experience when I played Ezreal that me picking Ez did not invalidate Blitzcrank's hook or zoning power. When playing Blitz you may think that my mind is filled mostly with "Alright, E the hook and I'm always okay" but that isn't true, and even if it was it would only be true during the laning phase, and if something only counters you in the laning phase then it isn't that hard of a counter since the laning phase is not the entire game.

When I'm Ezreal in that match-up, I'm thinking of my positioning and, more importantly to me, the positioning of my support that can be hooked with no response on their end and the positioning of the Blitzcrank. You may not be able to hook Ezreal as easily, but you still have the support to hook and while a tank support presents a bad hook, then they were a problem to you regardless of Ezreal, but I still have to worry about them because they're not all too tanky in the first 10 minutes when Blitzcrank is at his scariest in the laning phase. I also have to worry about when my support goes to ward because then nothing is really stopping Blitz from running at me to simply zone me or attempt to use his E, because even though Ezreal can blink out of the hook, he won't be able to guarantee it every time and in the back of his mind he's going to worry about the one time he fails to do so because he needs to be relevant early to be relevant at all. He's not like Vayne where he can catch back up and then try to supersede everyone else due to scaling since he lacks that.

There is no illusion of choice because Ezreal still presents meaningful gameplay choices, you just have to approach it differently. You could argue about whether or not it's fair that he forces you to do so, but then I'll have to wonder why you should be allowed to approach everyone the same and think it's okay whereas everyone who comes across Blitzcrank in a game has to change their entire gameplay dynamic around you. Some champions will have mechanics that simply change the game up for you - Ezreal has one of those mechanics against Blitzcrank, but he doesn't invalidate Blitzcrank because there's still 4 targets Blitz can try to pull. Unless there's a Kassadin, then there's 3. Unless there's someone like Amumu, then there's 2. And at that point I'd have to say you simply got countered.

kile147Mar 1, 20171 votes

All those point apply to making Ez's blink instant cast or a very short channel too. I just don't see a reason why I should be able to hit someone with an ability if for all intents and purposes my landing it is nullified. Blitz/Thresh/Naut still have to bait out the blink if it's instant, but if they do land a hook then it's actually landed (think Katarina).

AhristocatsFeb 28, 20179 votes

Lol no

it's not because YOU found something annoying that riot shoul change it A blink is a blink, and you discovered what a blink can do, and it can teleport yourself into a new location, making it interuptable just makes ezreal impossible to blink in a lot of situations, it stops him from doing what he SHOULD do

it's like telling to riot "gp oranges are annoying, stop making them removing ccs"

nm1010Feb 28, 20172 votes

it's like telling to riot "gp oranges are annoying, stop making them removing ccs"

No that is a horrible analogy, a better example would be removing Riven's ability to cc cancel/overide with her third q (and possibly e? I didn't care enough to look into specifics). Its an ability many champs have, but doesn't seem logically like it should work that way. Most if not all abilities that function this way need to be fixed, and actually thinking about it these are pretty much the same issue.

Riven made it into the patch notes (and again I didn't care enough to see if they actually fixed it) so if the precedent is there they probably should make Ezreal's e be cancelled by cc along with any other champs that can cancel cc with mobility spells.

AhristocatsFeb 28, 20172 votes

Ezreal has not be fixed since a long time because Riot wants him to blink while being cc'ed it's one of the strength of the character and it should not be removed

for animation cancelling riot balanced riven's damage around it to make her harder to play

nm1010Feb 28, 20172 votes

Riven's wasn't animation cancelling from what adrian riven posted a month or so ago. It was a time window where she could be in the animation of her q (and possibly e, again I don't know) while being cc'd to override the cc and continue on her merry way.

Ezreal's e is a much easier window to hit and I doubt riot has said anywhere that him cancelling cc was an intended strength. He might need some sort of slight buff for losing it, but its highly unlikely it would impact him in any meaningful way.

TeCoolMageMar 1, 20171 votes

or just make it an instant blink so Thresh can't Q2 to Ez

Maximum MordeFeb 27, 201710 votes

Hmm, nah, most casts have frames where they aren't interruptable.

JefftiffyFeb 27, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Well he's not complaining about the blink, but rather about the fact that it would only be fair for Ezreal to be grabbed if he hasn't blinked yet and is still in his E cast time. Most champions'spells get cancelled if they are interrupted while in cast time, so bringing ezreal in line with everyone only seems fair to me.

No because it works the same on many other delayed abilities.

Examples Tristana jump. Shaco invis. Gnar W (and hop if you don't get CC'd in the air). Basically anything with a small cast time can override pulls and other CC. It is fair because it gives counter play against otherwise very toxic champs that would normally crowd out the meta.

OtterlyLostFeb 28, 20175 votes

{quoted}

No because it works the same on many other delayed abilities.

Examples jump. invis. W (and hop if you don't get CC'd in the air). Basically anything with a small cast time can override pulls and other CC. It is fair because it gives counter play against otherwise very toxic champs that would normally crowd out the meta.

As a Tristana main, I can tell you that, No. Her jump most certainly gets interrupted, no matter the timing. And if there is a frame where it isn't interrupted, its so tiny that its almost impossible to get. :/ The barest of breezes can interrupt Tristana's jump. Ezreal's E, meanwhile, just flatly cancels the hook and/or CC had a very large frame for forgiveness. Which is dumb since the CD on it is exceptionally short compared to other escapes(Trist and Gnar both have really long CD's for their jumps and often max them last).

SkelenthFeb 28, 20173 votes

He means the little charge-up before you leave the ground, not the time you're in the air.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 28, 20172 votes

Does any blink besides Ezreal's allow one to escape after you got hit tho? I think that's what make people ...sad? x)

Not that i actually have a good solution for it, i just happen to understand the sorrow of catching a fish only to have it suddenly magic itself away, or break the fishing pole.

KougaFeb 28, 20171 votes

Most other Blinks in the game are more instant - think Katarina's Shunpo. Few of them have cast times that aren't instant. The rule of cast times not being interruptible is actually consistent (see: Ez & Lux Ults as common examples), and if you changed the rule for Ezreal, you'd have to argue changing the rule for everyone. And making all cast times interruptible I think has far worse consequences. While most regular spell cast times are pretty short, there is always the odd chance that you'll be hit with CC right as you're trying to burst down whoever is coming for you - and if your spell was interrupted because you got hit in the 0.1 second cast time? FeelsBadMan. After all, your spell did beat the CC.

Ez's E having a cast time is just added frames that most blink spells don't have to begin with. It just feels like he'd getting away with something.

So in these cases, you never had the fish on the line to begin with. You just want to shoot it with a harpoon gun for the sake of it avoiding you.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So in these cases, you never had the fish on the line to begin with. You just want to shoot it with a harpoon gun for the sake of it avoiding you.

.....This is kinda true, i really do want to shoot Ezreal with a harpoon gun sometimes.

Tristana's cannon works just fine though.

AhristocatsFeb 28, 20173 votes

they're all instant

talon old E kata E lissandra E (you can double tap E if you want to do an instant low range blink)

ezreal has a cast time, and cast times can't be stopped OP wants to replace it with a challening which can be stopped, and it's bullshit because it nerfs ezreal for the sake of OP's satisfaction whiel ezreal doesn't need nerfs

and i'm not an ezreal main if you wanted to know

ThefrostyvikingFeb 28, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=es0v2r6G,comment-id=000000020001,timestamp=2017-02-28T13:26:54.097+0000)

they're all instant

talon old E kata E lissandra E (you can double tap E if you want to do an instant low range blink)

ezreal has a cast time, and cast times can't be stopped OP wants to replace it with a challening which can be stopped, and it's bullshit because it nerfs ezreal for the sake of OP's satisfaction whiel ezreal doesn't need nerfs

and i'm not an ezreal main if you wanted to know

Oh well fair enough

chipndip1Feb 27, 201710 votes

If he can't, Tristana can't, and no one's going to do that to Tristana so that's that.

resumedFeb 27, 20172 votes

tristana already cant

hers is a dash and his is a blink

Sleepy SonaFeb 28, 201710 votes

[deleted]

Auz the RipperFeb 28, 20178 votes

yeah, but at least her jump can be stopped midway with displacement

unlike a certain champion

Sraeg2013Feb 28, 20174 votes

I'd rather make it a normal blink.

As in a "blink" not "I will blink, but let me make coffee first, then wait until I graduate, start a family, have 3 kids and see them graduate too".

He either blinks and dodges, or doesn't and get hit.

Even Kassadin or Katarina's blinks have cast times, but they are so short you can't deliberately use that to your advantage.

On the other side if it was up to me, I'd finally make Ez and Lux's ults channels. You should be punished for using a global or semi-global ult at point-fucking-blank range, not be able to finish ulting even, if you get pulled across the map.

Disclaimer:

I have anything against those two particular champions; it could be any champion. It's just an OCD about an utter lack of consistency.

DrCyanideFeb 28, 20173 votes

If his blink was Instant he'd get out of the pulls without even taking the damage.

GGLineaRFeb 28, 20172 votes

Make Ez's blink interruptible? Yes please. That little fucker is annoying.

While we're at it, can we do something with Trist's jump? You're not invulnerable while jumping, which I think is bullshit.

PhairdyFeb 28, 20172 votes

Yes counterplay is bullshit, kek. This stuff is intended, ezreals kit is about delayed abilities, same goes for his uit, lux' too btw.

Git gud or force him to use his Dash before you grab him.

Instead complain about things that actually have no counterplay, like zes ult.

ZILLAGULAFeb 28, 20171 votes

Zed ult has no counterplay xDDDDDDDDDDdd Or did you perhaps mean Ez's ult? Both is bs either way

EROTIC RAID BOSSFeb 28, 20171 votes

???????????????????????? ezreal's ult is like a low damage skillshot lol

IGotScuttleCrabsFeb 28, 20171 votes

Is it though? Ez has so many build variations I never know if I should be worried about the ult. Sometimes it hits like a wet noodle and sometimes it hits like a tank.

EROTIC RAID BOSSFeb 28, 20171 votes

Just hit tab. If he has a lichbane look out for his ult

ZILLAGULAFeb 28, 20171 votes

I meant that saying either of those ults has no counterplay is bullshit.

Friendly RamFeb 28, 20172 votes

i mean tris can do it too.

Warlord ZudaneFeb 28, 20171 votes

No, Tris still gets hooked, because the jump is just fast airborne movement. Ezreal has a flash/dash ability that blinks him from one spot to another.

Tris can jump away, but can't use her rocket jump to actually evade an incoming hook, it simply isn't fast enough. Ezreal's is instant so it's pretty easy to hit.

Friendly RamFeb 28, 20172 votes

nope. just like ez if she gets hooked while the animation is channeling she will hop from wherever in blitz grab she was to the endpoint she clicked at the beginning of the jump.

yay nibbersFeb 28, 20171 votes

That just means Trist is just as annoying. At least you can pull her out of the air though.

Friendly RamFeb 28, 20171 votes

not denying that just saying ez isn't a special snowflake.

Mira Arya EntheFeb 28, 20172 votes

Plus he fucking kissed my knee. Fuck him.

Tychusfindlay919Feb 28, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=es0v2r6G,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2017-02-28T16:53:54.130+0000)

Plus he fucking kissed my knee. Fuck him.

:thinkingface: