There is no need to compromise, feel free to go full AD…

Tychusfindlay919 · 2017-02-19T19:17:31.802Z

My last game Show us you actually care riot, and do what everyone has been asking. Make flat apply before %, remove edge of night (no nerfs, removal of the item. if you want a spell shield, get a banshees and suck it up), and this horrid meta will end, and lethality will go to assassins and whisper to marksmen and champions like riven can go fuck themselves because they always break new AD shit coming in. And make these changes NEXT PATCH, because it's not hard to just reverse a calculation. EDIT For those wondering, we lost that game. Riven snowballed, and by the time we started stacking armor they were adding whispers to their flat pen and nothing mattered. DOUBLE EDIT In response to the "Why did you build SV?" posts... Not factoring in runic armor, SV makes: one man decimate heal 15% (base 12%) two man decimate heal 30% (base 24%) three man decimate heal 45% missing HP (base 36%) that's fucking huge, and now I will not respond anymore to the spirit visage posts. Waste of my time. As HP increases, the heal amp becomes more and more valuable, and as their pen increases and they get LW items on top of lethality, the armor I would get with a frozen heart or thornmail becomes less and less relevant. No I don't use mobafire, I use my brain. Frozen heart licks balls because they're all prioritizing burst, not an AS DPS build. Also, between tabis, randuins, scaling armor runes, darius's retardedly high base armor, and a cloth armor, I had well over 200 armor which gets bumped up a ton for 2 seconds because I had the fearless mastery, which burst lethality builds should be suffering heavily against if it wasn't so efficient to tack on % pen afterwards.

EndlessSorcererFeb 19, 20173 votes

The curse of the cookie-cutter builds strikes again.

Frozen Heart would have been such a good option too.

Tychusfindlay919Feb 19, 201715 votes

{quoted}

The curse of the cookie-cutter builds strikes again.

Frozen Heart would have been such a good option too.

Frozen heart has no HP, it's deceptively bad. And they aren't building AS, they're building raw AD and pen.

650+k mastery points on darius, and my typical build incorporates maw and cleaver, not really cookie cutter. I run scaling runes and no AS runes at all, preferring more tanky runes and raw AD for reds, I'm not cookie cutter, I don't use mobafire, goon.

EndlessSorcererFeb 19, 20175 votes

You already had a decent amount of HP between Black Cleaver and Randuin's Omen.

Frozen Heart would have been outright better against a near-full AD team than Spirit Visage. While you would have recovered less health with your Q, the health you had would have been far more valuable.

Deadman's Plate would have been another great option (which provides health and MS), but it would have left you lacking in CDR.

While the attack speed slow wouldn't really affect Jhin (since I don't believe it reduces his AD), it would have been good to have.

It would have reduced Quinn's sustained damage and made weaving autoattacks between abilities clunkier for Kha'zix and Riven (possibly resulting in them accidentally cancelling attacks).

Tychusfindlay919Feb 19, 201710 votes

{quoted}

You already had a decent amount of HP between Black Cleaver and Randuin's Omen.

Frozen Heart would have been outright better against a near-full AD team than Spirit Visage. While you would have recovered a little less health with your Q, the health you had would have been far more valuable.

Deadman's Plate would have been another great option (which provides health and MS), but it would have left you lacking in CDR.

While the attack speed slow wouldn't really affect Jhin (since I don't believe it reduces his AD), it would have been good to have.

It would have reduced Quinn's sustained damage and made weaving autoattacks between abilities clunkier for Kha'zix and Riven (possibly resulting in them accidentally cancelling attacks).

Quinn isn't building for sustained damage, just burst. Her AS is already irrelevant, the HP is more valuable, and the 25% extra healing passive is worth more than frozen heart's useless passive. If they had an AS champ I wouodve considered frozen.

ChaoticPineconeFeb 19, 20174 votes

...then whyd you buy the Spirit Visage?

Tychusfindlay919Feb 19, 20177 votes

{quoted}

...then whyd you buy the Spirit Visage?

Already explained why.

ChaoticPineconeFeb 20, 20175 votes

Your explanation was terrible. You built it for the 500 health and the 25% increased healing? You realize that you healed for 2.4k that game, right? Less than the Riven or Jhin, who didnt invest in any big lifesteal items. A Deadmans or Sunfire would have been more useful. Sure - your decimate healing works in theory. In the game you werent getting any good heals off.

But okay - instead of saying that you made a bad purchase, keep bitching and moaning about losing the game. "My 2nd defensive item agasint a 4 ad + support Zilean is going to be a spirit visage! Wait, why does all these pen items hurt?"

Tychusfindlay919Feb 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Your explanation was terrible. You built it for the 500 health and the 25% increased healing? You realize that you healed for 2.4k that game, right? Less than the Riven or Jhin, who didnt invest in any big lifesteal items. A Deadmans or Sunfire would have been more useful. Sure - your decimate healing works in theory. In the game you werent getting any good heals off.

But okay - instead of saying that you made a bad purchase, keep bitching and moaning about losing the game. "My 2nd defensive item agasint a 4 ad + support Zilean is going to be a spirit visage! Wait, why does all these pen items hurt?"

Mid and bot snowballed by far by the time I could even attempt to do anything kiddo.

ChaoticPineconeFeb 20, 20174 votes

So instead of purchasing items that would stop the bleeding, you decided, "Hey - the enemy carries are stacking tons of armor shred. Lets build a defensive item with zero armor and a passive I will barely use!"

Tychusfindlay919Feb 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So instead of purchasing items that would stop the bleeding, you decided, "Hey - the enemy carries are stacking tons of armor shred. Lets build a defensive item with zero armor and a passive I will barely use!"

Stop what bleeding? You mean purchase an item that isn't even HALF effective and gives no HP? Or build a mediocre HP armor item (because I already had randuins which is the best hp armor item in the game) whose armor gets cut by over half with cleaver and LW?

It's better to get a spirit visage and try to land Qs because even if I land one or two Qs that's much more sustain than any armor item would grant into a team build like the enemy team's.

Stay mad kiddo.

ChaoticPineconeFeb 20, 20177 votes

I aint mad. Why would I be mad that you lost?

Youre sitting here complaining about armor shredding items when you purchased one defensive armor item. I mean, what did you expect? Buy 1 randiuns and tank the 4 carries?

Tychusfindlay919Feb 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I aint mad. Why would I be mad that you lost?

Youre sitting here complaining about armor shredding items when you purchased one defensive armor item. I mean, what did you expect? Buy 1 randiuns and tank the 4 carries?

tabi and randuins, plus my rune setup and I had over 200 armor easy, and at the start of every fight fearless bumped that up a lot. Stay mad that you have no clue how to analyze anything kiddo.

ChaoticPineconeFeb 20, 20177 votes

So, back to my comment - You bought one Randiuns and expected to take 4 carries? You can try to explain it away, but at the end of the day it was a stupid purchase and youre arguing for a stupid position.

I'm confident in my analysis. And I'm confident that a Spirit Visage was not the best purchase in that situation.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 20, 20174 votes

I'm confident in my analysis. And I'm confident that a Spirit Visage was not the best purchase in that situation.

Actualy it was the worst purchase against an AD comp... Its basic to me... why would u buy rm against AD team ? for healing... hell no !!!

AHeroNamedHawkeFeb 20, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Already explained why.

But you don't seem to understand what these numbers actually mean, you just looked at it and said "yup 9% missing HP heal that's worth it"

At 50% HP, the average for a decimate, with 4000 total HP, you'd be getting a whopping 180 more HP back for a 3 man decimate. That's an insignificant amount of health compared to the effective HP you'd get from building another armor item

Tychusfindlay919Feb 20, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YyXlWQkk,comment-id=000200000000000100000001,timestamp=2017-02-20T04:01:36.833+0000)

But you don't seem to understand what these numbers actually mean, you just looked at it and said "yup 9% missing HP heal that's worth it"

At 50% HP, the average for a decimate, with 4000 total HP, you'd be getting a whopping 180 more HP back for a 3 man decimate. That's an insignificant amount of health compared to the effective HP you'd get from building another armor item

The effective HP is cut by hilarious amounts between cleaver shred and LW pen.

AHeroNamedHawkeFeb 20, 20176 votes

{quoted}

The effective HP is cut by hilarious amounts between cleaver shred and LW pen.

100 base armor, 200 bonus armor -> 75/150

150*0.55 = 82.5 + 75 = 157 armor after shred + %pen, 61% damage reduction, 157% effective HP

100 base armor, 290 bonus armor -> 75/217.5

217.5*0.55 = 119.6 + 75 = 194 armor after shred + %pen, 66% damage reduction, 194% effective HP

After flat penetration (The maximum available is 82.5)

157 -> 74.5 = 43% damage reduction, 74% effective HP 194 -> 111.5 = 53% damage reduction, 111% effective HP

That's a ~30% increase in survivability, even though a FH has no health on it you're getting a 37% increase in effective HP after literally all the armor pen in the game

Is this what passes for plat these days?

Tychusfindlay919Feb 20, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YyXlWQkk,comment-id=00020000000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-20T08:01:49.893+0000)

100 base armor, 200 bonus armor -> 75/150

150*0.55 = 82.5 + 75 = 157 armor after shred + %pen, 61% damage reduction, 157% effective HP

100 base armor, 290 bonus armor -> 75/217.5

217.5*0.55 = 119.6 + 75 = 194 armor after shred + %pen, 66% damage reduction, 194% effective HP

After flat penetration (The maximum available is 82.5)

157 -> 74.5 = 43% damage reduction, 74% effective HP 194 -> 111.5 = 53% damage reduction, 111% effective HP

That's a ~30% increase in survivability, even though a FH has no health on it you're getting a 37% increase in effective HP after literally all the armor pen in the game

Is this what passes for plat these days?

Your original post discusses only the 9% potential missing heal amp although SV also includes 500 HP as well as a decent increase in base regen (which darius has a high base), it's not that bad.

AHeroNamedHawkeFeb 20, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Your original post discusses only the 9% potential missing heal amp although SV also includes 500 HP as well as a decent increase in base regen (which darius has a high base), it's not that bad.

You stated you were buying SV for the heal, given that buying more armor is a waste

That's 990 gold for 180 HP per 3 man Decimate and 14 more health per second, you've have to get four 25% HP 3Ds in a row just to make it worthwhile

The math is all there, you should really do some before talking shit about criticisms of your build

Tychusfindlay919Feb 20, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YyXlWQkk,comment-id=0002000000000001000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-20T08:36:37.296+0000)

You stated you were buying SV for the heal, given that buying more armor is a waste

That's 990 gold for 180 HP per 3 man Decimate and 14 more health per second, you've have to get four 25% HP 3Ds in a row just to make it worthwhile

The math is all there, you should really do some before talking shit about criticisms of your build

I also stated HP, or were you not listening?

AHeroNamedHawkeFeb 20, 20177 votes

{quoted}

I also stated HP, or were you not listening?

Because no armor items have HP on them? Not only does the effective HP increase make FH a more efficient purchase despite the lack of health, it has an actually useful effect that doesn't hinge on perfectly landing an ability multiple times at 40% HP

If you want health that badly, you can buy a Warmog and not waste 990 gold on MR

Critmaster GarenFeb 19, 201726 votes

{quoted}

The curse of the cookie-cutter builds strikes again.

Frozen Heart would have been such a good option too.

they had last whisper and cleavers.

frozen heart doesnt save you.

EndlessSorcererFeb 19, 201710 votes

It's a better option than building MR.

Critmaster GarenFeb 19, 201726 votes

{quoted}

It's a better option than building MR.

is it though? the mr is wasted, but he still gets the health, cdr and healing amp.

how much of that armor is wasted after % pen when you compare those two items? more than a chain vest, which is 800 gold worth.

whats left of the item is 45 armor before cleaver shred, some mana, cdr and an insignificant aura against ad casters. does that give you more protection than 500 health and increased heals?

a health/mr item against a full ad team in this case offers actually equal or more protection than a frozen heart. its petty sad.

Tychusfindlay919Feb 19, 201714 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YyXlWQkk,comment-id=00020000000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-19T20:57:15.660+0000)

is it though? the mr is wasted, but he still gets the health, cdr and healing amp.

how much of that armor is wasted after % pen when you compare those two items? more than a chain vest, which is 800 gold worth.

whats left of the item is 45 armor before cleaver shred, some mana, cdr and an insignificant aura against ad casters. does that give you more protection than 500 health and increased heals?

a health/mr item against a full ad team in this case offers actually equal or more protection than a frozen heart. its petty sad.

Exactly, and I remember a while ago they changed spirit visage by lowering the MR it gives and amping up the % heal to 25% increased heal. That, without runic armor in the equation, makes:

one man decimate heal 15% two man decimate heal 30% three man decimate heal 45% missing HP

that's fucking huge, and now I will not respond anymore to the spirit visage posts. Waste of my time.

Thank you critmaster garen for understanding.

AhristocatsFeb 20, 20175 votes

you're not going to hit 3 people with decimate trust me

and 2 people while it's possible is not a huge difference with 26% without spirit visage i wouldn't build it against a full ad team

get GA+sterak+deadman+triforce which is better if they don't have tanks

Tychusfindlay919Feb 19, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Why on earth did you build a against an all AD team?

Healing passive FOR MY q

RalanrFeb 19, 20171 votes

Did you build an Omen? Against flat AD, grabbing sunfire and deadmans are probably the best combo if they aren't attack speed heavy. Then just straight health.

Tychusfindlay919Feb 19, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Did you build an Omen? Against flat AD, grabbing sunfire and deadmans are probably the best combo if they aren't attack speed heavy. Then just straight health.

Of course I built an omens

ThefrostyvikingFeb 19, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Of course I built an omens

Did you know this, with all three lethality items+ runes + The black cleaver and last whisper a 300 armor target now has 80-90 something left.

Power of lethality + armor shred.

...

I like playing Ashe

This meta has destroyed my spirit, a burst Jhin kills tanks better than my Ashe does.

My faith hath perished in the face of a cruel reality. Amen.

Automated RivenFeb 20, 20175 votes

80-90 armor is like 45-50 damage reduction. nobody builts crit so 80-90 armor is actually really good. 400 ad turns into 200 damage going through without crit. The only reason people run lethality is because it reduces no armor targets to negative armor which results in increased damage. tanky targets would now just live forever against it. try the exact same game but intead put a 450 to 500 armor target in front of them and watch them face tank the whole team for 10 seconds.

EndlessSorcererFeb 20, 20172 votes

The only reason people run lethality is because it reduces no armor targets to negative armor which results in increased damage.

Penetration won't reduce resistances below 0.

Only flat reduction can do that (and it applies before everything else).

ThefrostyvikingFeb 20, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YyXlWQkk,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-20T01:50:44.541+0000)

80-90 armor is like 45-50 damage reduction. nobody builts crit so 80-90 armor is actually really good. 400 ad turns into 200 damage going through without crit. The only reason people run lethality is because it reduces no armor targets to negative armor which results in increased damage. tanky targets would now just live forever against it. try the exact same game but intead put a 450 to 500 armor target in front of them and watch them face tank the whole team for 10 seconds.

You are correct, i´ll agree that a lethality user would find such a tank very hard to deal with.

However how many champions can actually reach 400 armor? Even 300 is hard for a average game. And There are other factors we must consider as well.

There are 3 primary lethality ADCs played, Jhin MissFortune Varus .

Jhin first, deals...fairly mixed damage between autos and abilities however his ultimate packs a punch and his fourth shot is a guaranteed crit, takes a while to load up however i´ve seen this hurt supposed tanks a ton. Doesn't help that his passive is a weird mess of math that i haven't looked up but i know that building AD results in more damage than a normal auto attack in exchange for his reload mechanic however that more damage part is pretty important.

Then MF, she will start her fights by....well ulting in, if a tank get's caught in this depending on a few circumstances the damage is usually around 2,2 k to 3,8. Dependent on how fed they are and what items used. However that is a ton of damage regardless. I believe that it doesn't usually take much effort to kill a tank after that.

Varus is a AD xerath meaning he´ll shot at enemy squishies from miles away and usually ignore enemy tanks however if he does get into a situation where he does need to auto attack the results depend on the tanks items. If the tank has magic resist he´ll be fine, if not then a good varus will shred the tank with his W.

And assassins usually have abilities that allow them to hurt the tank plenty, talon for example, with his melee Q+W-AA doesnt just slaughter his mage victims, it actually hurts the tanks too.

Zed...depends skill and opponent i guess but his potential ultimate damage is not a joke to be certain.

Then for another we have graves, whom with lethality kills pretty much everything, koreans love and hate him for it.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 20, 20172 votes

There are 3 primary lethality ADCs played, .

Jhin is weak af against Tank. U don't take Jhin to deal with tank.

MissFortune tank will melt if they take the whole ult if mf have BC... but they can interrupt it easly with cc. And tank have many reliable cc.

And assassins usually have abilities that allow them to hurt the tank plenty

Seems like u don't play assassins. Assassins aren't effective against Tank... in lane and after, unless fed.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 20, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YyXlWQkk,comment-id=00020001000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-02-20T12:10:20.550+0000)

is weak af against Tank. U don't take Jhin to deal with tank.

tank will melt if they take the whole ult if mf have BC... but they can interrupt it easly with cc. And tank have many reliable cc.

Seems like u don't play assassins. Assassins aren't effective against Tank... in lane and after, unless fed.

I do play assassins that's why i know, using lethality their powercurve is insanely superior to the tank and by the time a tank has enough armor to block the lethality the opponent will already have a item 3036 or item 3071 .

Now this does not apply to AP much and the AD ones are currently OP with lethality, guess why no one seems to play tanks anymore to any success.

And Jhin has the same deal, him stacking lethality and AD causes him to get ahead of the tank stats wise and by the time the tank scales up Jhin will already start building crit.

Mf uses item 3814 , what is your tank gona do? Gapclose her and auto her to death? Good luck there....People are hating both MF and that item for a good reason. And in teamfights a tank will never have the chance to get a good MF, she will simply walk around and wait for your tank to engage then burn her ulti to kill him off. Then it's a 4v5 and easy from there, Koreans are abusing the hell out of this.

StillnameFeb 19, 20174 votes

Okay but what is the excuse for the rest of your team?

Except for kat none of them invested in armor which is just plain stupid vs an all ad team. Lethality may be op but your team should not expect to win when the junger and support are buying more MR items then Armor items vs an all ap comp. Let alone when you guys were behind.

HawkefireFeb 20, 20172 votes

On the contrary, they did have a zilean and he does do a noticeable amount of magic damage, that and 3 of them have thunderlords and jhin had DFT, so they did deal some magic damage, not a massive amount but still enough to be somewhat significant. Having a Spirit visage gives sustain, MR (not as important in this case, but still useful), health, and CDR, in this case it is perfectly justified to have a SV against that team.

If you want to critique anything, critique the fact that he built it so early. I think the better thing to do against a team that AD heavy would be to grab a kindle gem (for that sweet sweet CDR) and then grab another armor item, and then finish the SV off later on.

EndlessSorcererFeb 20, 20174 votes

Zilean wasn't building AP. His items were: item 3158 item 2301 item 3107 item 3190

Zilean's magic damage wasn't a threat to anyone with a decent amount of health and base MR.

Honestly, purchasing a Negatron Cloak (to be built into Zz'rot Portal or Guardian Angel) or Spectre's Cowl (for Spirit Visage as 5th or 6th item) would have been sufficient.

HawkefireFeb 20, 20172 votes

I personally would have just stuck with a kindle gem and then finished the Spirit Visage later.

Take a look at the damage dealt, ~14k magic damage from zilean is definitely something that you can't really ignore. You also have to consider that Jhin, Kha'zix, and Riven all were dealing some (albeit small) amounts of magic damage.

Building the Spirit Visage definitely wasn't a bad move, especially when their team is not building to counter sustain. The problem is that he probably should have waited to build it and sat on the kindlegem because frankly the amount of magic damage that they were dealing at that time does not warrant grabbing the SV. Personally I would have gone with a dead mans, because of the additional movement speed to stick to their (extremely) slippery team, and then after that I would have finished the SV and then grabbed another armor item.

There is no need to compromise, feel free to go full AD teams people, riot doesnt care

109 Comments

Deadman's Plate would have been another great option (which provides health and MS), but it would have left you lacking in CDR.

Deadman's Plate would have been another great option (which provides health and MS), but it would have left you lacking in CDR.

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