Can we tone down Zoe's E

Jefftiffy·Nov 23, 2017·2 votes·590 views

I honestly think that combined with her low mana costs are the most problematic part of her kit.

Her E damage is insane for a CC that can travel the furthest of any other basic ability in the game and has one of the longest stuns combined with highest damage for a stun. IDK maybe cap the range outside of a wall but leave the traveling over a wall. So basically instead of getting extra range on top of going through the wall it would just go through the wall and then finish the skill shot on the other side. If that isn't enough to make her health I think the damage on it should go down at least on the initial hit.

10 Comments

TheFallenShawNov 23, 20172 votes

Can we just remove the champion as a whole instead? Haven't faced her but just the ability to steal activie item abilitys and summoner spells is enough that I'll simply ban her every match

JefftiffyNov 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Can we just remove the champion as a whole instead? Haven't faced her but just the ability to steal activie item abilitys and summoner spells is enough that I'll simply ban her every match

Honestly compared to her E stealing summoner's spells isn't that bad.

TheFallenShawNov 23, 20171 votes

Im simply dead set against any champion having double flash, double ignight or double tp

AzadetheNov 23, 20171 votes

Spell thief is as much a crutch as it is a help. if you accidentally pick up Ignite or Exhaust, you can't use it again until you get up close and personal and burn those summoners. Furthermore, 90% of summoners are in bad locations/risk of death to grab, even for pro players.

It can be semi useful, but the actual GOOD part of W is Zoe's move speed boosts. Unfortunately, it scales upward only late in the game, because Zoe prioritizes Q and E over W. In other words, until about level 12, Zoe absolutely is immobile, and a super easy to chase down target because her move speed bonus is so low. (Level 1 is only 10%. Level 5 is 70%).

Ofc, if you chase her down, dodge her E or she will probably completely shut down any attempt to kill her by sleeping you. Unless her teammates wake you up....

Zoe in a nutshell: Support mage early game that requires a team to capture takedowns. Burst mage that can almost 1 shot to 1 shot late game (at 515 AP her Q can do a potential pre mitigation 1700 + proccing E's extra damage. At level 2, it only does about 200 damage if you fulll range the combo, and then she's on cooldown a long time)

She's no way near as strong as 80 % of champs that are ease of access play (Kha, Rengar, etc can absolutely destroy her, as can Corki).

ŚhunpoNov 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Spell thief is as much a crutch as it is a help. if you accidentally pick up Ignite or Exhaust, you can't use it again until you get up close and personal and burn those summoners. Furthermore, 90% of summoners are in bad locations/risk of death to grab, even for pro players.

It can be semi useful, but the actual GOOD part of W is Zoe's move speed boosts. Unfortunately, it scales upward only late in the game, because Zoe prioritizes Q and E over W. In other words, until about level 12, Zoe absolutely is immobile, and a super easy to chase down target because her move speed bonus is so low. (Level 1 is only 10%. Level 5 is 70%).

Ofc, if you chase her down, dodge her E or she will probably completely shut down any attempt to kill her by sleeping you. Unless her teammates wake you up....

Zoe in a nutshell: Support mage early game that requires a team to capture takedowns. Burst mage that can almost 1 shot to 1 shot late game (at 515 AP her Q can do a potential pre mitigation 1700 + proccing E's extra damage. At level 2, it only does about 200 damage if you fulll range the combo, and then she's on cooldown a long time)

She's no way near as strong as 80 % of champs that are ease of access play (Kha, Rengar, etc can absolutely destroy her, as can Corki).

Clearly you haven't faced her yet. Her burst post level 2 is pure insanity. Even pre-nerf rework Katarina and pre-rework Leblanc are cowering in fear at this underage star child. If you get hit by her sleep then you're just dead in lane, there's nothing else to it.

As for your argument with Spell thief, that's dead wrong since you're forgetting a few things:

She can pick up actives from items (namely Redemption)
She can pick up Teleport or a defensive summoner
It's on a basic goddamn ability

I'd be fine if this child had it on her ult, but the fact it's on her W makes her perma ban status.

You don't think she's as strong as assassins? Right. So which assassins have a hard CC that doubles the damage of whatever hits the target next? Which assassins can have more than 2 summoners or a free active from an item in exchange for a basic ability? None of them? I thought so.

Oh, another thing, her Q is on a 4 SECOND COOLDOWN. A 4 second cooldown for an ability that costs 50 mana and has the potential to do crazy damage.....that's insanity.

The fact Zoe is immobile does not mean that she's not broken. She has weaknesses, however her strengths are far too ridiculous, being burst damage, amazing CC and the ability to have another summoner spell or free active from an item. She's an abomination as she is right now and she's need a lot of toning down in order for her to be fair.

AzadetheNov 23, 20171 votes

I've both faced her and played her. In lane she's annoying vs anyone who has to face rush her, because she can stop the assault with a sleep bubble. That's why you need a jungler. I can think of another champ who does that: Syndra. Syndra when played right locks down a lane. It's not really a rare experience in 1v1. Most Junglers however kill her in 1-2 seconds, and sleep bubble doesn't stop that.

-I'm not forgetting the useful pick ups. But, trying to argue the possibilities doesn't actually portray what actually happens. You get a chilling smite, or an Ignite, or an Exhaust, you have to use them before you can pick something else up. Point and Click Actives are a liability to hold, because you actually need to get next to someone to use them before you can pick something else up. The occasional Heal or Redemption is useful, but not really any more useful than a "that's cool" attribute, because it usually doesn't drop at the right time to be useful.... It just isn't used that often or actually often pulling off the trick plays some pros video to show off late game (They pick and choose which games to upload)

-That's not what Double Trouble Bubble explicitly does. It has a cap on the doubling. And, honestly Zoe's kit needs it, because she's so squishy and has so few damage sources and pretty harsh cooldowns on them in addition to the SIZE of her skills (Paddle Star is her only aoe, and it's only about a 250 range aoe). it's far more useful in team play than solo play, because Zoe's early kit can't utilize it nearly as well as her full build kit (aka start level 1 E, and invade a jungle, and let one of your very powerful level 1 gankers proc it).

Q is NOT on a 4 second cooldown until she has serious CDR and is max leveled in it. its base is 7.5 - 6.25, and it's her only actual real damage that's reliable.

She is a 30% win rate, and her CC can only hit 1 person. This is a team game, and there's plenty of cc that hits entire TEAMS.

I'm guessing you'd also complain about Kha zix, Katarina, Jarvan, Zed being broken, because of their abilities to 1 hit. Kha can win a game from level 2 and go 35/2 with no real counterplay (even warding doesn't help because you don't have enough wards to be everywhere)

I have yet to see a Zoe go pure positive in a game I've played. Even the winners only get scores like 12/8/14.

ŚhunpoNov 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I've both faced her and played her. In lane she's annoying vs anyone who has to face rush her, because she can stop the assault with a sleep bubble. That's why you need a jungler. I can think of another champ who does that: Syndra. Syndra when played right locks down a lane. It's not really a rare experience in 1v1. Most Junglers however kill her in 1-2 seconds, and sleep bubble doesn't stop that.

-I'm not forgetting the useful pick ups. But, trying to argue the possibilities doesn't actually portray what actually happens. You get a chilling smite, or an Ignite, or an Exhaust, you have to use them before you can pick something else up. Point and Click Actives are a liability to hold, because you actually need to get next to someone to use them before you can pick something else up. The occasional Heal or Redemption is useful, but not really any more useful than a "that's cool" attribute, because it usually doesn't drop at the right time to be useful.... It just isn't used that often or actually often pulling off the trick plays some pros video to show off late game (They pick and choose which games to upload)

-That's not what Double Trouble Bubble explicitly does. It has a cap on the doubling. And, honestly Zoe's kit needs it, because she's so squishy and has so few damage sources and pretty harsh cooldowns on them in addition to the SIZE of her skills (Paddle Star is her only aoe, and it's only about a 250 range aoe). it's far more useful in team play than solo play, because Zoe's early kit can't utilize it nearly as well as her full build kit (aka start level 1 E, and invade a jungle, and let one of your very powerful level 1 gankers proc it).

Q is NOT on a 4 second cooldown until she has serious CDR and is max leveled in it. its base is 7.5 - 6.25, and it's her only actual real damage that's reliable.

She is a 30% win rate, and her CC can only hit 1 person. This is a team game, and there's plenty of cc that hits entire TEAMS.

I'm guessing you'd also complain about Kha zix, Katarina, Jarvan, Zed being broken, because of their abilities to 1 hit. Kha can win a game from level 2 and go 35/2 with no real counterplay (even warding doesn't help because you don't have enough wards to be everywhere)

I have yet to see a Zoe go pure positive in a game I've played. Even the winners only get scores like 12/8/14.

Kha'zix needs to get into melee range to do a majority of his damage, Jarvan is predictable, Zed is....questionable right now but far from broken, Katarina is absolutely fine (Electrocute is the main offender for her). Kha does have counterplay, it's called not getting isolated, which means sticking with your team.

Every Zoe I've seen goes like 20. The champ's busted lmao.

AzadetheNov 23, 20171 votes

Kha literally does NOT have to be in melee range. Leap has a 900 Range, and 700 pre evolve. 700 range counter jungling is a sure kill even if warded. And then he has a followup 1000 range on his Void Spike Slow. In other words, and his Q's range is 325 his effective range is for a kill can be up to 2000, the longest of any melee champion.

His damage passive ensures kills post Duskblade, resets, and his stealth near guarantees success.

You're obviously not a jungler or solo laner. Kha dominates junglers, Tops, and Mids, and they don't have any choice but to be Isolated (at least mid and top has a turret; Jungler is at the mercy of warding a bush near Red/Blue, Finding no Kha there, starting red/ Blue, and then when it's 40% HP getting 70% hp'd to 0 % Hp'd by Kha jumping from the other side. And then he owns your jungle for the rest of the game, even if you sense his wards.

http://champion.gg/champion/Khazix/Jungle? Look at his Kill vs other jungler stats.

He only has a 50% win rate because although he kills, many Khas never leave the jungle and use the advantage to push turrets. But he tops out in Kill averages, and players with over 200 games have an AVERAGE 60%+ win rate.

There isn't an Elo that exists where Kha isn't right at the top of the Kills per game graph.

And, the charts are skewed toward the fact that while players who have 201+ games AVERAGE 60+%, most Kha players have 7.25 games (He's just not a favored champ aesthetically) If we're talking an actual Kha player, they are King of the Rift.

You can talk all you want about not being Isolated, but it's one of the easiest conditional damage boosts in the game to meet.

You can dodge Zoe's bubble or trap 70% of the time. You Can't dodge Isolation.

This is where Zoe is on Plat +..... the players who are best apt at grasping and abusing a new champ: http://champion.gg/champion/Zoe/Middle?league=platplus

She's still tiny in EVERY parameter. 4th from lowest gold. #1 in Deaths. ranked last in minions killed. rank 30/46 of champs damage taken Only Rank 12/46 in damage dealt.

And it's not a small sample size.... 31.55% of Platinum + games atm are choosing Zoe.

This is what Pros are doing with Zoe....... none seem that impressive:

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Zoe

It is early and people are learning, but Plat+ are good indicators of where she'll end up, and it doesn't look too good.

ŚhunpoNov 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Kha literally does NOT have to be in melee range. Leap has a 900 Range, and 700 pre evolve. 700 range counter jungling is a sure kill even if warded. And then he has a followup 1000 range on his Void Spike Slow. In other words, and his Q's range is 325 his effective range is for a kill can be up to 2000, the longest of any melee champion.

His damage passive ensures kills post Duskblade, resets, and his stealth near guarantees success.

You're obviously not a jungler or solo laner. Kha dominates junglers, Tops, and Mids, and they don't have any choice but to be Isolated (at least mid and top has a turret; Jungler is at the mercy of warding a bush near Red/Blue, Finding no Kha there, starting red/ Blue, and then when it's 40% HP getting 70% hp'd to 0 % Hp'd by Kha jumping from the other side. And then he owns your jungle for the rest of the game, even if you sense his wards.

http://champion.gg/champion/Khazix/Jungle? Look at his Kill vs other jungler stats.

He only has a 50% win rate because although he kills, many Khas never leave the jungle and use the advantage to push turrets. But he tops out in Kill averages, and players with over 200 games have an AVERAGE 60%+ win rate.

There isn't an Elo that exists where Kha isn't right at the top of the Kills per game graph.

And, the charts are skewed toward the fact that while players who have 201+ games AVERAGE 60+%, most Kha players have 7.25 games (He's just not a favored champ aesthetically) If we're talking an actual Kha player, they are King of the Rift.

You can talk all you want about not being Isolated, but it's one of the easiest conditional damage boosts in the game to meet.

You can dodge Zoe's bubble or trap 70% of the time. You Can't dodge Isolation.

This is where Zoe is on Plat +..... the players who are best apt at grasping and abusing a new champ: http://champion.gg/champion/Zoe/Middle?league=platplus

She's still tiny in EVERY parameter. 4th from lowest gold. #1 in Deaths. ranked last in minions killed. rank 30/46 of champs damage taken Only Rank 12/46 in damage dealt.

And it's not a small sample size.... 31.55% of Platinum + games atm are choosing Zoe.

This is what Pros are doing with Zoe....... none seem that impressive:

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Zoe

It is early and people are learning, but Plat+ are good indicators of where she'll end up, and it doesn't look too good.

You might be right about Zoe, however I disagree with what you're saying about Kha. He DOES have to be in melee range to do his damage. Whether he has a large jump or not does not mean he's now ranged, he has to land from jump some time. But, I will agree that Kha is in a disgusting place right now with the amount of damage he pumps out and the sheer mobility his kit has, especially with Predator.

The thing with Zoe is that the experience you have facing her isn't "fun". The fact her sleep doubles her damage and you effectively get one shot makes her a very frustrating force to deal with. Add that to the fact that she can pick up a RANDOM summoner spell or active and WIN the lane off of it. Despite the fact that Riot said they don't want more RNG in their game they still put it in.