I dont understand the "rengar is op" train on the boards

FortisDominus·Jan 1, 2016·3 votes·1,992 views

They are not saying flat out "rengar is op please nerf", but that is what they are insinuating. Im not having a problem with rengar, what im having problems with are these zeds and talons recently that are oneshotting squishies just as fast as rengar and either escaping with their lives or killing more than one person. Talon is invisible and can install squishy champs and he has AOE to blow up more then one person. Zed can just blow you up and then return to his shadow 3 screens away. Rengar ult cooldown at rank 1 is also long.

So is it just like a joke on the forums to complain about rengar or are people actually serious?

43 Comments

Sightless66Jan 1, 20164 votes

There is more to the message than "Rengar is op please nerf". The major complaint isn't that he is the strongest assassin, but that he is the most annoying assassin in the game by far, and he's strong enough that he is more irritating than any other assassin. People want nerfs for him because he is the champion that they would like to avoid playing against more than any other champion in the game. Nothing new there.

It's the same reason he gets complained about every time he gets strong. He's annoying because there are such limited options for playing against him when he gets ahead (yes, I know he does technically have counterplay, but it is less robust for him than it is for other champions).

FortisDominusJan 1, 20162 votes

Maybe its because i dont play squishy champs, so i dont find rengar annoying. I find talon much more annoying personally because he can do the same thing, with more reliable damage, on a shorter cooldown. I remember one time i played against rengar the second he jumped, alistar smashed the ground and we instakilled rengar. I usually play renekton, so when rengar jumps on my carry i just stun him and then my team instakills rengar. I just dont see all the hype over this champion who was so much better before the rework. Before the rework, a good rengar was something to be feared. Triple Q, Splitpushing, triple Q, no indicator to when rengar was comming..... Triple Q.

undesirable teamJan 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Maybe its because i dont play squishy champs, so i dont find rengar annoying. I find talon much more annoying personally because he can do the same thing, with more reliable damage, on a shorter cooldown. I remember one time i played against rengar the second he jumped, alistar smashed the ground and we instakilled rengar. I usually play renekton, so when rengar jumps on my carry i just stun him and then my team instakills rengar. I just dont see all the hype over this champion who was so much better before the rework. Before the rework, a good rengar was something to be feared. Triple Q, Splitpushing, triple Q, no indicator to when rengar was comming..... Triple Q.

Renekton counters rengar :p

Sightless66Jan 1, 20163 votes

Talon is annoying, and he is a very poorly designed assassin, but Rengar's problems stand above his. Rengar's leap distance, combo speed and access to hard CC means that he can do his job with extremely high reliability, particularly since the stealth makes reacting to his approach much less effective. If he doesn't walk directly into CC, he will do his job.

The issue with Talon as compared to Rengar is that Talon gives you much more opportunity to respond to his actions because his approach is easy to see unless he burns a huge chunk of damage to ult in (which usually is a very poor option for him). The predictability Talon is saddled with goes a long way towards making him less aggravating to play against. He's still a pain in his own right, but Rengar still handily beats him out.

Just to make this perfectly clear: I agree with you that Talon is stronger than Rengar. I'm not debating that at all. Rengar is strong right now, but he's not in the same class as Talon. However, even though Rengar is weaker than Talon, he is much, much, much more annoying because his design includes so little counterplay when he gets even slightly ahead.

I usually play renekton, so when rengar jumps on my carry i just stun him and then my team instakills rengar.

Two things. You play a champion with a instant targeted stun that can effectively be autocast by using attack move. That is arguably the single hardest counter-mechanic to Rengar because it doesn't require a reaction time. That's pretty much the best-case scenario possible against Rengar, and the thing is, I still don't even think it's that good if Rengar plays around it right.

I don't think your assessment of him is accurate. I've played Rengar a pretty good amount, and it's not that hard to deal with enemy CC. So long as you don't make yourself extremely predictable, you can get around pretty much any babysitter that isn't Janna or maaaaybe Alistair. I see the exact same thing when I play against one of the one-trick-pony Rengar players who actually know how to play the champion. Being more robust than other assassins against enemies guarding their carries is one of Rengar's strengths. It's definitely not a weakness of his.

I just dont see all the hype over this champion who was so much better before the rework

Just because he was worse before doesn't mean he isn't bad now. All that says to me is that he's gone from "most annoying" to "competing for most annoying".

FortisDominusJan 1, 20161 votes

Alright i see what you mean, i just hate these thread recently that im reading. It said that along with the indicator there needs to be a GLOBAL ALARM so everyone knows when rengar ults. This would ruin rengar, or they would have to make HUGE compensation buffs for such a game changing mechanic.

UtilityPunkJan 1, 20161 votes

I've noticed that nearly every champion rotation, the forum chooses a new favourite punching bag; a champion that counters someone's main so well that they complain on the forums. Rengar was the punching bag of last rotation, Talon is becoming the new one this rotation, and Renekton comes up in conversation so much more often.

Imbalances aren't a huge problem in games, but in sports, they are. Arguably, mild imbalances create fun in a game. League is a game wrapped up and marketed like a sport, so players often adopt a sportsman mentality of 'the game should be fair', rather than a gamer's mentality of 'what are the exploits/how do I win.'

In my previous MMO, World of Tanks, your choice of tank influences winrate by up to 31%!!! That's absolutely insane, and part of the reason I left the game. I also left because, unlike League, rewards are zero-sum. You get rewarded in World of Tanks for taking damage, and thus rewards, away from your team mates. League is despite imbalances a well-designed game; objectives, individual skill, and teamwork play a bigger role than the champion you choose. In my experience, the champion you play in League has maybe a 10% bearing on your winrate.

I'm sure you've also seen diamond smurfs go 35/4 and get all 5 dragons, so in anecdote at least, you can observe the power of skill and teamwork. I've also had the pleasure of playing against many newbie Zeds and Volibears, and seeing diamond players on the same champs in solo queue (not against other pros... because I'm a bit terrible T.T)

Zed and Volibear are underwhelming when the player doesn't have practice, yet can carry games alone with a good player behind them.

Officially, I think some champs would be less hated turning numbers down a notch or two, but they aren't outright unfair.

TL;DR Champions don't inflate winrate appreciably. Players who can exploit the game do inflate winrate, regardless of who they choose to play.

EDIT: The estimate of 10% proves accurate, looking at the variance in average winrates by champion; 42% is the lowest, 56% is the highest, so champion selection averages about 12% into your winrate. Keep in mind that although skill and teamwork are averaged out of that 12%, they are still present to some small degree due to error. For any player, regardless of skill, champions in League can give you up to a 12% boosted winrate. In World of Tanks, your choice of tanks a whopping and clearly unfair 31% of your winrate.

BluePolarizerJan 2, 20161 votes

Not sure how Volibear requires mechanical skill. You run up to people, flip, E then bite and auto. I play him quite a bit and he's really that simple. Maybe you need to do a flash-flip or Righteous Glory flip. But in general its just flip, E, auto, bite, auto.

UtilityPunkJan 2, 20161 votes

Not a lot of mechanical skill tbh. Usually the newer players flip at poor places, like right beside the enemy turret without any backup. In one case, I played a volibear that just couldn't hit his flip; his timing was so poor that he'd have to cancel it on account of being too low to chase to the turret, or having just been hit by a slow when the jungle came to gank.

The talented players get flips when I'm low on hp or outnumbered, and generally overextended. Flipping at the right time can make volibear one of the harder champions to beat.

Sightless66Jan 1, 20161 votes

You're not wrong. Rengar would have to change a lot if he got that kind of nerf.

The forums always give horrible balance ideas when they want someone nerfed. Ignoring their actual balance proposals has always worked out well for me.

Dark NephthysJan 1, 20164 votes

Talon's stealth only last for 2.5 seconds while Rengar's stealth is 7 (or 12 with trophies) seconds and Rengar also has a dash for his passive that allows him to jump on a target from up to 725 range which is higher than Talon. Rengar's ult also allows him to see all nearby targets, while Talon has to rely on his own vision of the map. If Talon were to use his ultimate to go stealth and try to jump on the carry, it's a short range and can be easily seen due to the blades that just sit on the map, and it cuts his damage down since he cant get his ult's damage a 2nd time, making him lose a decent amount of damage for trying to stealth kill his target.

Also about saying that Talon gains movement speed, yes Talon gains 40% bonus movement speed but that's nothing when compared to Rengar's 30% movement speed + 50 movement speed (trophies). I could also mention Talon uses mana and is some what mana hungry in a way, and Rengar actually gains bonuses for spamming his skills...or that Rengar also has a root when Talon only has 2 small slows (one slow is rather small, and the other is practically non-existant...seriously...0.25 second slow?)

Zed I can't argue with to much, as I find him very annoying to fight and understand all the hate or nerf threads for him..Though all 3 of them are going to be insane once the new assassin item comes out.

FortisDominusJan 1, 20162 votes

Rengar does not get the movement speed during his ult so if you have higher movement speed and a good enough reaction time you can actually (possibly) avoid getting jumped on, I can tell you this has happened to me before when i have tried to lane gank ult with rengar. Sometimes they will just run directly too their turrets. Talon also does huge aoe burst damage which makes up for his lack of cc and hard engage. Im not going to argue which one is better because both champions are good in there respective ways. I just think overall talon is just more useful throughout the game then rengar is.

foristJan 1, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Rengar does not get the movement speed during his ult so if you have higher movement speed and a good enough reaction time you can actually (possibly) avoid getting jumped on, I can tell you this has happened to me before when i have tried to lane gank ult with rengar. Sometimes they will just run directly too their turrets. Talon also does huge aoe burst damage which makes up for his lack of cc and hard engage. Im not going to argue which one is better because both champions are good in there respective ways. I just think overall talon is just more useful throughout the game then rengar is.

Not that pro-level play is the best indication of champion strength, but neither champ has been played much recently. Rengar however has been played 10x more than talon at the competitive level. I think that fact, if anything, is a proper indication of which champion is more useful; at least from the best players' in the worlds perspective. If you want the numbers: talon has been played in 25 games, rengar has been played in about 261.

FortisDominusJan 1, 20161 votes

Soloq is not competitve play, in competitve alistar is a pick or ban, the same can not be said for soloq (for example). I do understand where you are comming from, but competitve and soloq are 2 completely different game play styles.

foristJan 1, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Soloq is not competitve play, in competitve alistar is a pick or ban, the same can not be said for soloq (for example). I do understand where you are comming from, but competitve and soloq are 2 completely different game play styles.

Well, for solo que the only stats I can give are pick rates and win rates. Rengar and talon have very similar win rates, but talon's pick rate is 3.5% vs rengar's 14%, that's almost 4x as much, so I'd probably conclude that solo que players still think rengar is a more useful champion.

FortisDominusJan 1, 20161 votes

you could also argue rengar was a higher pick rate in normals (which is true) but that is just because rengar is alot of fun to play (mostly because it is fun pissing off the enemies when you kill them lol). Talon also has a higher win rate and if talon had a higher play rate i think his win rate would even out to about 50% which is still higher then rengars.

foristJan 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

you could also argue rengar was a higher pick rate in normals (which is true) but that is just because rengar is alot of fun to play (mostly because it is fun pissing off the enemies when you kill them lol). Talon also has a higher win rate and if talon had a higher play rate i think his win rate would even out to about 50% which is still higher then rengars.

Well, i use champion.gg for stats, because I consider plat and above to be a good indication of actual game knowledge. Rengar has 51% win rate in those elos, but there's really no argument in that anyways. I think at that level the amount of play a champion sees is not based on how fun they are to play, but instead how easy it is to win with them. Personally, I consider a champion to be more fun if he/she can do more things and be more useful to my team. That's just my opinion though, I really don't play rengar anyways.

BluePolarizerJan 1, 20163 votes

this has already been proven false with the Talon 0.01 second death video. Rengar killed Talon faster than a near perfect reaction time on R just due to the 0.01 second animation time of Talon throwing out his blades.

MohawkBirdJan 2, 20161 votes

This is about the only time people will ever trusted death recap in the history of LoL. Only when it happens to prove Rengar is OP.

BluePolarizerJan 2, 20161 votes

Death Recap has a problem with multiple sources of damage, smite damage and mixed damage. It has no problem with single type single source damage.

Dark NephthysJan 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Rengar does not get the movement speed during his ult

"While stealthed, Rengar gains 15% / 30% bonus movement speed while moving toward a nearby enemy champion. Enemies are made aware of Rengar's presence if he is nearby.

Upon exiting stealth, Rengar gains bonus movement speed and generates 5 Ferocity over the next 5 seconds. BONUS MOVEMENT SPEED: 25 / 35 / 45%"

He does gain movement speed during his ult...He gains it when stealthed running towards an enemy champion AND gains it after leaving stealth, which is much stronger than Talon's movement which only last while he is stealthed which again is only a small fraction compared to how long Rengar's is.

FortisDominusJan 2, 20161 votes

you are right sir, he does gain a movement speed buff, i guess i just never noticed my mistake. however, talons ult is on a lower cooldown and talon has more early game burst to get him fed as well. I still think talon and zed are more a threat then a rengar is unless in the hands of a rengar main

Dark NephthysJan 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

you are right sir, he does gain a movement speed buff, i guess i just never noticed my mistake. however, talons ult is on a lower cooldown and talon has more early game burst to get him fed as well. I still think talon and zed are more a threat then a rengar is unless in the hands of a rengar main

Yea I'll admit that Talon does feel like he does more damage early on, and a bad Talon can probably do more for the team than a bad Rengar. The both of them can be pretty bs when facing them, I just don't like stealth in this game and feel with all the nerfs to wards and vision in general that stealth champions are a bit strong atm. I probably wouldn't have any problems with Rengar (hell...maybe the community wouldn't either..) if they started adding more stealth based counterplay. Maybe add in the stealth items from ARAM into Summoner's rift, or re-adding the pink ward trinket so people could always have a pink ward ready for a fight when the enemy team had a stealth champion.

Not saying all stealth champions are bs since some of them either is situational/very small stealths Akali MonkeyKing Leblanc

Personally the only stealth champions I hate and would call bs right now would be: Rengar Shaco Twitch . While I'll admit that Evelynn 's is annoying, she has no real CC outside a slow and all her skills are short ranged, which is probably shorter than her stealths range so at least you'll see her before she generally starts attacking you.

As for Zed...yea I never liked him and understand all the hate he has...I really hope he doesn't become to insanely broken when the new assassin item comes out. I've fought against enough Zeds already in the past 2 months.

foristJan 1, 20163 votes

This video is a good illustration of why people complain about rengar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW_st2H2Y2Y

It's ironic because its a talon getting one-shot. Talon at least has a decent cast time and animation on his w. There's really no comparison in burst speed. Other than that I'd say rengar has a more reliable and potent assassination while talon has a lower cooldown on his full combo so more opportunities to assassinate, just less likely to succeed.

TheVishualJan 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

They are not saying flat out "rengar is op please nerf", but that is what they are insinuating. Im not having a problem with rengar, what im having problems with are these zeds and talons recently that are oneshotting squishies just as fast as rengar and either escaping with their lives or killing more than one person. Talon is invisible and can install squishy champs and he has AOE to blow up more then one person. Zed can just blow you up and then return to his shadow 3 screens away. Rengar ult cooldown at rank 1 is also long.

So is it just like a joke on the forums to complain about rengar or are people actually serious?

Just salty adc mains that are upset they can't abuse the freelo that is ADC this season

Juggernaut628Jan 1, 20162 votes

Rengar does his damage generally with his ult which is a really long invisible and the ! that pops up is nowhere near the range that it should be to be fair (no reaction time) and his abilities all scale up naturally without having to max them so he always does decent damage.

FortisDominusJan 1, 20163 votes

Too be able to instakill with rengar you have to be really fed. There was also a time when rengars ult did not have the "!" and people didnt complain about rengar back then even when he could triple Q. Back when rengar could triple Q he was much more deadly because even if he was not super fed he could still instakill people

Sightless66Jan 1, 20163 votes

There was also a time when rengars ult did not have the "!" and people didnt complain about rengar back then even when he could triple Q.

Yes they did. Rengar got those changes because he drew massive influxes of hate every time he got strong. He was one of the only champions that managed to compete with AP Nidalee for sheer forum rage. Hating Rengar is the natural state of the forums. It goes into remission every once in a while, but it always pops up again sooner or later.

FortisDominusJan 1, 20163 votes

they gave him the rework but they didnt fix the original problem which was the reason for the rework. They said that they were reworking rengar because he would either jump and instakill his target or he would fail and die for it. This did NOT change after the rework. It only made him more feast or famine to be honest

Sightless66Jan 1, 20161 votes

Sure. Can't disagree with that at all. It would be really jice if he actually got fixed.

undesirable teamJan 1, 20161 votes

Lol, Talon has a low cooldown ult, yeah, but he's super squishy and has to roam. His ult only lasts for like 2 seconds, not like 7 second rengo ult. Rengar's ult gives him vision of nearby targets, and it gives him movespeed when he gets out of it. Since rito removed the pink ward upgrade, your little item 3341 wont do much, only having a limit of 5 total pink wards per team, he gets really annoying. With his high base damage and stuff, he can blow up a carry really fast, he scales into late game with his passive. And he can one shot a carry easily, he's also a jungle/top laner, so he can get fed off the lanes. Zed and talon can also be countered by item 3140 :p (talon does more damage with slows, zed's ult can be qss'd)

FortisDominusJan 1, 20162 votes

Rengar is also super squishy, talon can also kill his lane opponent for kills. Talon can ult, use yomusoos, and instakill an enemy without any indicator that he is comming when he is invis.

undesirable teamJan 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Rengar is also super squishy, talon can also kill his lane opponent for kills. Talon can ult, use yomusoos, and instakill an enemy without any indicator that he is comming when he is invis.

Rengar gets a armor and MR buff on his w, making it harder to kill him, he can easily kill the carry and run away, the enemy having little reaction time to do anything, then rengar's team engages and wins the fight. With talon, he can jump in, but he has little ways of jumping out, he's very easy to catch out. It's hard to have a easy talon ult without them noticing, the blades are easily seen, and you can just run away. Talon's ult only lasts what, 2 seconds?

FortisDominusJan 1, 20163 votes

he gets 30 mr and 30 armor from his roar at lvl 18 which is nothing at that point in the game. If your team is right next to your adc when he gets assassinated before anyone can even react (which means he is like 18-2-0 or some shit) and gets away with it, there is a problem with your teams teamwork. Talons ult lasts for 2.5 seconds HOWEVER he gets a 40% movement speed boost + youmuus.

undesirable teamJan 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

he gets 30 mr and 30 armor from his roar at lvl 18 which is nothing at that point in the game. If your team is right next to your adc when he gets assassinated before anyone can even react (which means he is like 18-2-0 or some shit) and gets away with it, there is a problem with your teams teamwork. Talons ult lasts for 2.5 seconds HOWEVER he gets a 40% movement speed boost + youmuus.

Rengar doesn't need to be that fed before he can assassinate someone. He just needs a few items. Talon needs to be fed, or he falls off as much as lee sin. We're QQing that he's one of the most annoying assassins too, not the strongest.

FortisDominusJan 1, 20163 votes

well im just going to say even dekar (ninfang) said that unless you get really fed and hold your lead through constant farming and kills, it will not be possible to instakill carries. however, when you are really fed, and can maintain it, those videos you see on youtube of rengar instakill everyone, can become a reality. I know even when you are not extremely fed as rengar you can still kill people, but you cant do the famous rengar instakill with:

hydra bola Empowered Q and Roar

TroiannJan 1, 20161 votes

Dekar is not ninfang.

Ninfang is ryan choi, who no longer plays leagues all that much.

FortisDominusJan 1, 20162 votes

my b

i thought ninfang was one of dekars accounts woops

5050BSJan 1, 20161 votes

Rengar is just massively OP right now. But so are many champs. Riot is losing control of balanced without doing a full tone down on damage. Some champs at lvl 2-3 can 2 click you to 30% hps. That is just BS and GGs a game at 3m in. SO many games are GG by 10m it is stupid. 1 in 5 games is a 50/50 fight with all the others ether you SMOKE them or they you.

FortisDominusJan 2, 20161 votes

at lvl 2 with fury renekton can do 50%+ of a targets health LOL. (with thunderlords).

I would not say rengar is Massively op right now because there are plenty of other champs i would bad before rengar honestly.

AkeneroJan 1, 20161 votes

Zed and talon are laners, which means they are directly connected to the rest of the game through mid lane. Rengar is out of this loop, and has no way to consistently control his power without intensive warding and constant counterjungling, both are dangerous due to the fact you need to leave lane and lose exp and gold. Besides that, his power never falls off, as he just kills squishies and dies typically, which can be done at all points.

FortisDominusJan 2, 20161 votes

i can agree with this, but thats the price rengar pays for his burst, no escape. Zed and talon (if used correctly) can still burst their target and get away to rejoin the fight.

BluePolarizerJan 2, 20161 votes

Rengar doesn't fall off. This is proven by graphing his win rate vs. time elapsed. It only goes up. The best time to shut Rengar down is at the 2 minute mark with Shaco or Lee Sin cheese.

ValrunJan 2, 20161 votes

As someone who plays Rengar solely to end a losing streak, I can tell you how overpowered it is to play him. His lack of reliable escape is far overshadowed by his ability to assassinate your ADC in 0.01s and the rest of your squishy backline in the following couple of seconds.