Boards›Gameplay

The future of poking supports

Ghiefelstein··7 votes·5,803 views

Long ago the words 'poking supports' would make you think of Sona or Lulu. But nowadays champions like Morgana, Zyra, Vel'koz, Annie, Zilean, Karma and Fiddlesticks fit that role. The current idea of a poking support is a mage with some utility and a lot of early damage. If you can proc spellthief's easily that is an added bonus. I believe something needs to change about poke in bot lane, read on to know why.

Mages lose intended and meaningful weaknesses when taking the support role

  • Morgana and Vel'koz have below average auto-attack ranges to put them in danger when last hitting. In the support role they can keep their distance.
  • So you are an immobile mage? Welcome to bottom lane, where mobility on supports is still rare.
  • Your AOE damage is not as strong in a solo lane? Better go to a lane with two potential victims.
  • Your damage falls off late game? (looking at you Zilean) Who cares, supports are not expected to deal huge damage anyway.

Mages are picked for their damage and not their unique strengths It is fine if you pick Morgana for her spell shield, or Zilean for his ult. But it is a problem when mages are picked regardless of team compositions. Then the real reason is that your champion can deal the most damage in lane. You pick a mage support to win lane, not to help your team. Poke is not meant to give your adc a safe lane anymore, it is about crushing your lane opponents. Who cares that you don't bring as much utility to your team if you win your lane? That brings me to the last point.

Mages push out true supports By true supports I mean Janna, Lulu, Nami, Sona, Soraka and Taric. These supports are not known for their strong laning phases, but they bring utility and protection to your teammates. Unfortunately mages can buy utility as well. The result is that you pick someone to win lane and then you can always buy actives like Mikael's and a Talisman. As long as so much support power can be bought, people will try and find the mage with the most damage. Specifically Sona and Lulu are severely outclassed as poking supports.

So what could give poking supports a healthier future? Riot tried with the introduction of Ardent Censer. That item gives you a reason to pick a true support over a mage. Simply nerfing all the mages involved is not a solution. Besides destroying these champions in their intended role, another mage would just take their place. The only thing keeping support Malzahar, Anivia or Brand out of the spotlight is their damage. And I bet you can think of a few other mages that I forgot.

Maybe Spellthief's Edge could proc only on auto attacks. At least that removes some of the long range ability spamming. The sheer amount of support actives could be reduced as well. Why would you pick a true support if most of your support power comes from items? It would also be great if utility scaling could work. Mages simply scale better with AP now, so they can make better use of support items with AP. What are your thoughts?

62 Comments

MrSc0tty5 votes

This again? When Janna and Nami are top picks in the world championships going on right now?

There are, at present, TWO outclassed true supports. Soraka-rework upcoming, and Lulu-Nerfed because of her mid/top performance. Sona Nami and Janna are fine, and it's worth noting that champions like Zilean and Morgana have been "traditional supports" longer than all three of those, and others, like Karma, were near exclusively played support and have just as many supportive abilities as others (I mean, look at Janna and karma. Slow, shield , hard cc.)

The list of Viable supports at present goes as follows:

Tanks: Braum, Thresh Mages: Morgana and Zyra (ONLY AGAINST BRAUM) Supports: Sona, Janna, Nami

Those are the top tier. Why is it that if there aren't only five champions viable to be played support people cry foul? Sona Nami Soraka Lulu and Janna aren't the entire world, and honestly there isn't that much out there right now barring Morgana that gives them a hard time, and even then several of them are the best picks against Morgana (Nami, Soraka).

Ghiefelstein1 votes

Fair enough, currently both Janna and Nami are top picks. About Sona can we at least agree that her power has shifted away from poke since the rework? Her heal and speed boost got more power, but the poke got weaker. The reason was "Sona should not 1v2 her opponents". That is exactly what I accuse mages of. Soraka, Lulu and Taric I would say are outclassed.

It still stands that mages cause some problems. They are simply more focused on damage. Janna and Karma both have a slow, shield and hard cc, but Karma has way more damage. Karma tries to murder you in lane, Janna tries to stay alive. I don't have a problem with diversity in the support role, I do have a problem with mages picked only for their high damage. I would like to see a place in the game for a true support with poke (Lulu, old Sona).

MrSc0tty3 votes

What is wrong with people trying to kill you in lane?

Janna has more damage than Karma becaaaause:

  1. her hard cc is INSTANT, NOT A ROOT, and an ENORMOUS AOE.
  2. her slow also grants her a size able Movespeed boost as a passive
  3. her shield has a higher ratio, grants an AD bonus, has a lower cooldown, and can shield towers
  4. her ult has the single most powerful heal in the entire game (suck it Soraka) as well as one of the single best forms of cc.

So Karma is a lane bully while Janna is the flipping bomb late game. It's like comparing Graves to Vayne-both are mobile carries but one is focused on bullying their opponent while the other wants to hit 6, group up and shred teamfights.

There is a place for a true support with poke. What is Karma but a poke support? Nami? Zilean? Sona's poke damage only got reduced by herself, she actually does more damage if she coordinates with an aura autoattack from her carry (not counting the basic attack damage of the carry of course, just Sonas damage and the bonus damage from the aura). Besides that, have you played PBE Soraka? Her playstyle is poke/sustain and she's da bomb at it.

Taric is outclassed by other tanks. Soraka needs her rework. Lulu is undertuned because of her toxic top/mid laning.

The ONLY Mage style support, picked for mostly damage who is actually a problem right now is Morgana, and historically she has been a support as long or longer than any of the accepted "pantheon of pure true supports" that people like to worship. Annie, Fidd, Zyra, Brand, Velkoz and Lux are all outclassed by traditional support picks.

Ghiefelstein1 votes

Thank you for taking the time to explain this issue so extensively to me. As you and other posters have pointed out, my opening post was quite extreme and did not fit with what we actually see played in game. My lack of nuance at least sparked some discussion and gave me insights. I hope it was helpful to others too.

Sona is getting the range on her Q back, new Soraka gets a poke/sustain playstyle and maybe even Lulu will find her way back to the support role. I think I will get to play some traditional poking supports ;).

Pika3101 votes

Sona is getting the range on her Q back

Congratz, they're doing "bug" fixes. A 12-week old -50 range "bug" they knew about and ignored until the 2nd -100 range "bug" that's 2 weeks old.

I can't help, but wonder if these weren't actually bugs and rather intended undocumented nerfs made by a certain designer's biased hate towards Sona. Perhaps I'm just paranoid from Riot's 3 months of inaction.

Silverclaw1 votes

Not every bug will get squashed instantly upon notice - some just kinda sit on the back burner until he more gamebreaking ones get fixed.

Pika3101 votes

You make a valid point, big bugs are definitely more important to deal with in a timely manner. Smaller ones like a slight range decrease on an ability that's already had its damage blatantly nerfed by 20% anyways are inconsequential.

Having said that and agreeing with your statement, they've still yet to fix this massive and known bug from **8 weeks **ago:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/champion-update/sona-maven-of-the-strings

Pika3102 votes

Sona's poke damage only got reduced by herself, she actually does more damage if she coordinates with an aura autoattack from her carry (not counting the basic attack damage of the carry of course, just Sonas damage and the bonus damage from the aura).

This is propaganda, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't know it was untrue or bother doing the math.

Hymn alone at Rank 1 does slightly more damage with the ADC, but falls behind significantly after adding in the blatant unadulterated Staccato nerf. Once Sona Ranks up Hymn to 2 and higher, it starts lagging behind its old version even BEFORE Staccato, due in 2-part to both the nerfed bolt damage as well as the poor base increases-per-rank for its non-aura.

It's also worth noting, the bolt nerf was made as a trade-off to lessen Hymn's CD nerf from 10 to 8 seconds, which still remained a nerf regardless. They also further nerfed Celerity's CD as the 2nd part of that trade-off. Personally, I'm thoroughly confused how making three nerfs and zero buffs counts as a "trade-off."

ProfDrDeath2 votes

You forgot Alistar and Leona for the tank part, both of which are plenty viable and offer unique strengths.

The actual list should contain all of these as solo-queue viable:

Tanky guys: Alistar Blitzcrank Braum Leona Taric Thresh

Mage guys: Annie Fiddlesticks Morgana Velkoz Zilean Zyra

Support (= Utility, Heals'n'shields) crew: Janna Karma Lulu Nami Sona Soraka <- this last one after the next patch

And then there are the more fringy picks you still see work out sometimes: Amumu Elise JarvanIV Kayle LeeSin Lux Maokai Nautilus Nunu Shen Teemo Volibear

exiledFromBadmen1 votes

Kayle? Really? Edit: She's a good support. I meant that.

Pikmints1 votes

Has a heal/MS boost, able to make the ADC invulnurable, and the Q does good damage early + has utility.

If anything I'd be surprised he left J4 out of the fringe picks.

MrSc0tty1 votes

I'll admit it, I love me some support Trollibear. There's nothing like picking him into a low mobility enemy carry like Jinx and roflstomping her

Pika3101 votes

You are playing against bad Jinx's that don't know about this:

Flame Chompers!

Cost: 50 Mana Range: 900

Jinx throws out a line of snare grenades that explode after 5 seconds, lighting enemies on fire. Flame Chompers will bite enemy champions who walk over them, rooting them in place.

Jinx tosses out 3 chompers that, once armed, explode on contact with enemy champions, rooting the target for 1.5 seconds and dealing 80/135/190/245/300 (+100% Ability Power) Magic Damage over 1.5 seconds to nearby enemies. Chompers last for 5 seconds.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

Rectified.

AbiwonKenabi3 votes

He did say "fringy picks that you still see work out sometimes." These are presumably weird off-supports, most played in a kill lane, some played for their utility or scaling, etc. I'd say Kayle is more support than a lot on that list. I personally don't like supports like these but they're usually just for fun.

exiledFromBadmen1 votes

That's what I'm talking about. Kayle isn't a fringy pick. She's a good support.

Wullf3 votes

I believe that nowadays "poke" supports are more of "burst" supports. I do not remember time when I won lane agains karma support. She just kills me with just a little help of ADC.

But Zyra even though monstrously strong is too squishy so I'd consider her somewhat balanced. But Morgana with her high range, high damage, high snare duration Q is serving enemies on silver platter.

Still in the Worlds you can see that Nami, Janna even Sona are quite played.

On the other hand Velkoz support even with his high damage is not that OP pick. He is squishy and his early damage is nothing to be afraid of. And even when he does have higher damage in mid and late game he needs to chain those skill to deal a good amount of damage. Then with full combo (W+E+Q+W+R) he is able to burst down squishier or poked enemies. Still it depends on perfect execution unlike Karma's R+Q chunking half HP from ADC.

Ghiefelstein2 votes

i don't think mages are necessarily OP. They are just unfun to play against. Their pattern is usually spam your damage until you run out of mana. The weaknesses they would have in a solo lane are not there, leaving little counterplay. As their opponent you try not to lose lane instead of win lane.

Pika3101 votes

Still in the Worlds you can see that Nami, Janna even Sona are quite played.

It's also worth noting those Sona games, her team loses. Watching closely, you notice she has zero lane presence, zero team presence and her lone saving grace, Crescendo is either used desperately or she died before getting a chance to even hit R.

Wullf1 votes

I know what you mean. I played her and she is too team dependant though her boosts are awsome.

If your team is coordinated Sona is really strong. But when you are getting destroyed and cannot make your plays, she suddently cannot do much and is near to useless.

Pika3101 votes

If a pro team that practices together everyday like it's their job (which it is) doesn't even have enough coordination to make Sona work, then the simple fact of the matter is that she herself just doesn't work.

Wullf1 votes

it is not solely about their coordination but also on teamplay of enemy team. If team with sona des not get to play their game, she might be more useless then other supports

Pika3101 votes

So you're telling me that if the enemy team plays better than your own team, your team loses? What a concept, I'd never considered that.

Wullf1 votes

what I meant is that sona is more useless then other supports when enemy team is outplaying your team.

AbodyHUN6662 votes

true, why would I pick lulu now, when morgana can get away with rushing zhonya and have better protection from divers, be able to pick someone off and have huge damage.

MrSc0tty3 votes

How does Morgana have better protection from divers than Lulu?

So she rushes Zhonyas. That means, I assume, you have Sightstone and Mikaels?

She's got a 1.5s AOE stun, an admittedly gnarly 3 second root (but if she maxed that her shield is puny) and her 2 second Zhonyas.

As Lulu, you have a Heal+knock up+slow field, a Heal+Cleanse, a Shield, an AOE 80% slow and an up to 2s point and click Silence+blind or speed boost. Nearly all Morgana's kit is self-peel only, and ALL of yours can be used on an ally.

4.5 seconds of hard cc VS 3 seconds of hard cc+1 second of extreme slow. 2 heals and a shield vs one magic damage shield.

AbodyHUN6663 votes

I just hate that I always feel so weak when poking with Lulu. Like OP said I have to put myself in danger constanly to get off my Q and E and AA, and if I'm constatly poking I run out of mana quite fast. Morgana can spam Q all day long and if you take one half your health is gone due to her and the adc. She also has the easiest way of proccing spellthief and her Q hibox is quite misleading.

MrSc0tty1 votes

So, you understand that a Morgana Q+W costs more mana and deals less damage level 1 as long as you move out of the pool? And that thanks to Pix lulu has the highest base autoattack damage in the game?

So, Morgana lands one binding and her carry moves in and the pair of them chunk you for half your hp. Girl's got a 2 second root (IE you can still autoattack and use abilities) and her full combo plus the damage mitigation off her shield is less than your damage, especially if the pair of you are trying to autoattack because the difference between your autos and Morgana's is about 80 range and 15 damage.

What's yourcarry doing during all this? Level 3 you have 2.25s of cc to Morgana's 2, you have autoattack superiority and damage, is your carry not adding his damage in to heavily win the trade?

Or are you just solo poking from long range with just EQ and no autos and expecting to shove then out it lane just with that, and getting mad when they launch a coordinated attack and win the trade?

Pika3101 votes

you understand that a Morgana ***Q+W ***costs more mana and deals less damage level 1

Huh? Wha? I missed something here. How do you have 2 skill points at level 1?

MrSc0tty1 votes

Level one in the skill. Morgana's Q has a flat cost of 90, even level 1, while Lulu's stuff starts out in the 60ish range.

Actually, at any level, a full Lulu QWE rotation should have more effective cc, lower mana costs and more damage as long as you're not standing for more than the snare duration in Morgana's W. Plus, you can dodge the snare and switch targets if you wish to avoid the damage mitigation from her shield-options you don't have against Lulu's combo.

If you're having trouble with a poke support like Janna or Lulu, odds are your issue stems from the fact that they're not poke supports. They're not " lob an ability and nothing else and deal damage with that." They're "bully with a combination of autos and abilities thanks to hard to avoid cc and easy damage mitigation."

You go in, you autoattack trade with the carry. You auto them as they go for a creep, the carry respond with an auto and you E yourself to shield off the damage (that's two for you to one for them) they move away, you Q them for more damage and auto again. Do it from behind a minion wave to prevent a snare and you've just heavily won that trade using your mana to the maximum effectiveness.

Lwnt3 votes

I have no Idea what you are saying but let me give you some actual numbers:

Level one in the skill. Morgana's Q has a flat cost of 90, even level 1, while Lulu's stuff starts out in the 60ish range.

Morgana Q: Dark Binding: [RANGE: 1175] [COST: 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90] [MANA COOLDOWN: 11] MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 / 135 / 190 / 245 / 300 (+ 90% AP) ROOT DURATION: 2 / 2.25 / 2.5 / 2.75 / 3

Lulu Q: Glitterlance [RANGE: 925] [COST: 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 / 80] [MANA COOLDOWN: 7] MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+ 50% AP) SLOW DURATION: 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 / 2

Morgana Q does not have a flat cost of 90 even at lvl 1. As you can see she starts of with 50 and when she max the skill she gets a flat cost of 90. Also, morgana q range is 1175 while lulu Q range is 925. Damage scale better in morgana q compare to lulu Q. But keep in mind that lulu Q hits multiple target compare to morgana q hence the cc duration. Also morgana q shot is easier compare to lulu Q because the hitbox of morgana q stays constant throughout the range while the hitbox of lulu gets smaller at further range of the skill. Also

Morgana mana: MANA 240 (+60) MANA REGEN 6.8 (+0.65)

Lulu Mana MANA 200 (+55) MANA REGEN. 5 (+0.5)

As you can see she can spam her Q better then lulu.

MrSc0tty1 votes

I am misreading the LoL wiki on my phone is what I'm doing. The mana costs wrap around and it looked like the cost was always 90. I apologize for that.

However, are you missing that Morgana Q can be creep blocked while Lulu's can't, and Lulu's missile speed is higher-Glitterlance is massively easier to land. Auto+Glitterlance while the enemy carry goes for CS is much easier then landing a Morg Q if the carry is smart with minion blocking.

Combine that with the ability to make Glitterlance undodgeable when paired with E, it is clear to me that Morgana's superiority when spamming is due to the fact that Lulu doesn't need to spam-she should never really miss. While Morgana's skillcap lies in landing the perfect Q, Lulu's lies in using hers when it will be an effective trading tool.

All that said, the Supportle DEFINITELY needs a buff right now, and isn't in a great spot. But she's hardly unusable if you're not using her wrong.

Ghiefelstein2 votes

Time for some factchecking.

Morgana's Q has a flat cost of 90, even level 1

False, it costs only 50 mana.

Actually, at any level, a full Lulu QWE rotation should have more effective cc, lower mana costs and more damage.

Level 3: Lulu's mana costs are with 60+65+60 = 185 higher than the 50+70+55 = 175 for Morgana. A 2 sec snare is way more effective than a 1.25 sec polymorph that can be blocked by black shield. Also, Morgana has 1175 range while Lulu has 925 on glitterlance and 650 on whimsy.

Now it is not that interesting to compare the most OP mage support with one of the weaker supports. That is more of a short term balance issue. I don't understand why you present false information to defend Morgana. Do you really believe that she is weaker than Lulu? But your next statement surprised me the most.

If you're having trouble with a poke support like Janna or Lulu, odds are your issue stems from the fact that they're not poke supports. They're not " lob an ability and nothing else and deal damage with that." They're "bully with a combination of autos and abilities thanks to hard to avoid cc and easy damage mitigation."

This sums up the core of my post. I find "lob an ability and nothing else and deal damage with that" problematic. This may be fun for you to play, but it is terrible to play against. Now if you gave up safety or were vulnerable after missing an ability, it would be fine. Tossing dark binding from 1175 range for 50 mana does not meet those criteria.

MrSc0tty1 votes

Time for an apology. I was loaded into the Lol wiki page on my phone just to compare and the mana cost of her Q wrapped around the page at the very end, making it look like the mana cost was flat 90. I don't play Morgana support, and actually use Lulu as a counterpick to her with a very high degree of success since she does well against my main, Thresh.

I actually find that ability-lobbers like Morgana, Blitz and poorly played Thresh are my favorite opponents, because I can dodge the thrown ability and go "well, the lane is mine for 10 seconds" and punish with a heavy trade.

As you say, comparing one of the weaker supports to one of the more problematic ones is a bit wlementary, though from personal experience even with the nerfs I have no trouble as lulu. Personally I think Morgana would be hardly a problem at all if she didn't triple-proc spellthief but that's beside the point.

In my view, the future of poke supports should rightfully be "trade supports." Rather than buffing Janna, Sona and Nami into ability-lobbers in their own right, they should be used with all their abilities as more medium ranged traders than long ranged pokers. Morgana and Braum unquestionably need nerfs, while Soraka Taric and Lulu are underpowered right now. But I don't think a huge paradigm shift is needed to fix those issues, and I definitely don't think Botlane is or ever will be just "second Mage lane" due to just how good Nami Janna and Sona are right now.

Ghiefelstein1 votes

That is a nice description of what the future of poke supports could look like. I hope this can become reality. Thank you for the discussion! Lulu

Pika3101 votes

Do you think yourself a politician? I didn't ask any of that, you're intentionally avoiding my question. Again, How do you have 2 skill points at level 1?

Lwnt2 votes

Level 3 you have 2.25s of cc to Morgana's 2

Wow a 0.25 increase but you are forgetting Morganna E (Black shield) which renders all cc useless with a 5 second duration.

you have autoattack superiority and damage, is your carry not adding his damage in to heavily win the trade?

You know that the bolts of pix can be dodge behind an enemy minion. You litterally need a clear space between you and your enemy to get pix autoattack. Which is something that you have to do in safe moments because lulu is squishy. Also the damage is only good in early game while later level like 9 and 10 and up the damage become unnoticeable. The reason is that it is stronger on champion with greater attack speed which is why we put it on adc later in the game.
Whenever Lulu or the allied target of Help, Pix!.png Help, Pix! attacks an enemy (excluding structures and wards), Pix fires a barrage of 3 homing bolts toward the same target that deal 3 / 7 / 11 / 15 / 19 / 23 / 27 / 31 / 35 (+ 5% AP) magic damage each to the first enemy they each hit, for a maximum possible 9 / 21 / 33 / 45 / 57 / 69 / 81 / 93 / 105 (+ 15% AP) magic damage.

MrSc0tty1 votes

I'm not forgetting Morgana's E. I usually do a trade leading with Whimsy to bait out the black shield cooldown (no way she can use it fast enough to block instant targeted whimsy) and then OCD the shield wears off I use EQ.

Yes. If you get hit with snare, stand in the pool, and then you waste cc on her shield you will lose trades heavily. Same thing happens if you always press the attack into Sorakas Astral Blessing armor buff or focus Leona with her shield up or don't break Janna's shield during a trade and let her carry keep plinking you with AD boosted autos. There are things you should not do against each support. As a Lulu/Janna/Nami vs Morgana, what you should not do is get into a long range skill spamming contest. I wouldn't all in a Braum. I wouldn't hang out away from the minion wave vs a Blitzcrank. Damage mitigation and trade focused supports are among the best answers to Morgana, played right. But if you just sit back and EQ whenever the carry gets into range, yeah you'll go OOM and get wrecked.

Voliboar2 votes

Man I don't know, I loved it when Sona were able to poke so well, but her poke were nerfed now, and sill outclassed by Nami. I suppose they're not allowed to have too many things at once and her kit design was a bit flawed, but it's just sad to see her fallen from her throne (best poke support in 2011)

But yeah, I'd rather they push mages out of bot lane totally, and make other supports beside Nami viable in the poke department.

But now that I think about it Nami is pretty overloaded... Need sustain? Pick Nami. Need poke? Pick Nami. Need disengage? Pick Nami. Need engage? Pick Nami.

Unlike Janna who can only disengage and prevent damage (but is fantastic at that). Nami is Sona + Taric 2.0. But still she's a support, they'd probably nerf her again even if I don't want to :(

Nicarasu2 votes

OP, you never mentioned Braum! He has no other role (that I'm aware of) than support, so why would he not be a true support?

Ghiefelstein1 votes

The six that I mentioned were called true supports by Riot when they handed out utility ratios. There are plenty of other champions that are (almost) exclusively support. Braum Leona Thresh Blitzcrank They have more of a tank role and they itemize accordingly. The six supports I mentioned are supposed to scale with AP, just like mages. Both have utility and damage, but mages tend to have more damage with less utility.

Lord Graves III1 votes

thresh and braum are listed as primarily supports and fighter and tank secondary respectively.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

I don't see why people find Morgana a problem. If you can't Dodge her snare (or make it hit a creep), then ask for her to be banned. If you can Dodge it, what power does she have? When playing support I pick Morgana, but only because people can't seem to dodge her snare. When playing adc I almost never get hit by her snare (and if my support gets hit I just retaliate to the attack on them). If Morgana were really a problematic support, she would be picked in competitive play (she doesn't seem to be. .. At all).

Ghiefelstein2 votes

Problematic does not have to mean overpowered. Morgana's binding has an 11 second CD, low mana cost and a duration from 2 to 3 seconds. She can just throw it out hoping it will hit. As a solo laner Morgana at least has to come close if she wants to last hit. But support Morgana can stay at a distance with the safety of black shield.

I find it problematic when a champion moves to another role to cover up a weakness. Morgana is not the only one. Solo lane Lulu, AP Tryndamere, jungle Alistar, proxy Singed and AP Master Yi were all attempts to remove a meaningful weakness from an otherwise quite balanced champion. And as a result, they got nerfed.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

I would say the best nerf they could give Morgana would be to make her snare hitbox more accurately represent the visuals. I can see why some people can't dodge it as well thanks to this issue.

Also, you're completely wrong, Morgana is played fairly frequently in competitive. In fact, this was where I think she was popularized. I will say that she was more common in NA and EU however, and if you only watched World's I could see where you get that idea (SK and TSM don't really pick Morgana, but I would be surprised if C9's LemonNation didn't play her at least once).

ValyrianBlade2 votes

Fair enough. I haven't watched much ranked play, in the 20 or so summaries I've looked at I never saw Morgana but that doesn't mean other teams don't play her, you're right.

I'm all for clarity, make it More obvious. That's reasonable. I just don't think she's overpowered, if you've played as her or against her a lot, she doesn't bother you much.

Lord Graves III1 votes

Zilean always was a poke support. D:<

Mages lose intended and meaningful weaknesses when taking the support role

Cutting down your post for ease of response. Mages make a clear and powerful trade-off going bot. They lose out on their immobility weakness in exchange for falling off hard where they wouldn't normally. If morgana can't afford a zhonyas, she is in real trouble. And bot lane she has no guarantee of that. Poke was always about crushing the other guys. It just happened that the old "Poke" supports had things besides poke. Sona cannot poke as hard as Vel Koz. Instead she can shield, or speed up her marksman. Or she can AOE stun everyone. All vel koz has is damage. His utility is minimal, his CC is light, and his buffing is non-existent. What is wrong with him just beating the tar out of the enemy laners? What is wrong with AOE mages going bot to find two victims in exchange for not getting to farm?

Traditional supports still have clear cut advantages. Annie cannot shield an allie like Janna can. Zyra cannot peel for an ally as well as nami can. She can't heal either.

Taric needs a rework, his kit is old and needs redone. Soraka is the same deal (hers is close at least). Lulu got dumpstered unfairly, I will give you that. Its bullshit, but its not annie, morg, or Vel Koz's fault Lulu got nerfed.

In short. Stop demanding the champs I like to play not go botlane. If Vel, Annie, and Morg can't support anymore then I am stuck playing Leona every single game. T_T

Ghiefelstein2 votes

Cutting down your post as well for ease of response.

Mages make a clear and powerful trade-off going bot. They lose out on their immobility weakness in exchange for falling off hard where they wouldn't normally.

Low damage late game is not a weakness, it is the standard for supports. During laning these mages have the strengths of a mid laner but not their weaknesses. The problem with these support mages is their oppressive laning phase, not their late game.

Poke was always about crushing the other guys. It just happened that the old "Poke" supports had things besides poke. Sona cannot poke as hard as Vel Koz. Instead she can shield, or speed up her marksman. Or she can AOE stun everyone. All vel koz has is damage. His utility is minimal, his CC is light, and his buffing is non-existent. What is wrong with him just beating the tar out of the enemy laners? What is wrong with AOE mages going bot to find two victims in exchange for not getting to farm?

Yes, old poke supports had less poke but things besides poke. Mage supports have minimal utility but way higher damage. The result is an oppressive laning phase that looks more like burst than poke.

Traditional supports still have clear cut advantages. Annie cannot shield an allie like Janna can. Zyra cannot peel for an ally as well as nami can. She can't heal either.

But if you just beat the tar out of the enemy laners, you get to buy better items. Locket for the shield, Mikael's for peeling and healing, Talisman for speed boosts, etc. Most things traditional supports do can be bought with gold. And mages are in a way better position to get that gold.

Taric needs a rework, his kit is old and needs redone. Soraka is the same deal (hers is close at least). Lulu got dumpstered unfairly, I will give you that. Its bullshit, but its not annie, morg, or Vel Koz's fault Lulu got nerfed.

In short. Stop demanding the champs I like to play not go botlane. If Vel, Annie, and Morg can't support anymore then I am stuck playing Leona every single game. T_T

Sorry, I still believe that an oppressive early game combined with falling of late game is not a healthy pattern. I don't want your favorite supports dumpstered, but I do want them to have more distinct strengths than 'huge damage during laning'. Your description of Vel'Koz is exactly what I don't want to lane against.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

Low damage late game is not a weakness, it is the standard for supports. During laning these mages have the strengths of a mid laner but not their weaknesses. The problem with these support mages is their oppressive laning phase, not their late game.

Low damage is a weakness, especially since mages' damage is not made up for in utility. Look at Thresh: his damage has been nerfed several times yet he's still one of the most popular supports because his utility is just that good. The same can't be said for, say, an Annie support.

Yes, old poke supports had less poke but things besides poke. Mage supports have minimal utility but way higher damage. The result is an oppressive laning phase that looks more like burst than poke.

I'm not sure why you consider mages such an oppressive lane phase. There are ways to play against them. Dodging skillshots can help, having some sort of sustain, zoning them, harassing them back--these mages are as squishy as most "traditional" supports, they can be easily countered by early hard engage like Thresh, Leona, or a well-timed Nami bubble with a gank.

But if you just beat the tar out of the enemy laners, you get to buy better items. Locket for the shield, Mikael's for peeling and healing, Talisman for speed boosts, etc. Most things traditional supports do can be bought with gold. And mages are in a way better position to get that gold.

Mages are not necessarily in a good position to get as much gold as a solo laner. The best support players don't buy a lot of AP mage items, and when they do they are incredibly fed. Remember, if you buy all these utility items to make up for your lack of utility, you aren't buying AP damage items to scale.

Pika3102 votes

In short. Stop demanding the champs I like to play not go botlane. If Vel, Annie, and Morg can't support anymore then I am stuck playing Leona every single game. T_T

So because YOU want to play mages as supports, we're not allowed to play supports as supports? That's rather arrogant and selfish, it's bad enough that Sona doesn't have a place in the game anymore. With this line of thinking, eventually we'll be seeing top-lane tanks like Shyv or Rene dominating the tank-support role instead of Braum and Thresh.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Ghiefelstein

Ambient gold should be distributed more fairly
Gameplay66 comments
85
votes
We should talk more about champion identities
Gameplay29 comments
27
votes
How I feel about this game
Gameplay17 comments
19
votes
Utility scaling is taking too much power budget
Gameplay33 comments
19
votes
Can we create a Renekton bar for supports?
Gameplay36 comments
18
votes
@Riot: why Lulu is no longer in line with your design values
Gameplay8 comments
16
votes