Can we create a Renekton bar for supports?

Ghiefelstein·Feb 17, 2015·18 votes·1,898 views

A while ago Riot created the Renekton bar for top lane. Instead of nerfing the best top laner at that moment (Renekton), they wanted to buff some healthy other candidates. I feel like such an approach could work for supports too, since they have seen a lot more nerfs than buffs.

Over the past year we have seen quite some nerfs for supports who were too strong. Annie, Leona, Morgana, Braum, Thresh, Nami, Janna, Soraka, Sona for example. Those nerfs were justified, but it made the support class as a whole weaker. The only two buffed champions were Alistar and Blitzcrank, after which Alistar became a top laner. Is buffing some of the weaker supports a good idea? Is it even possible without creating balance problems in other lanes (think Lulu)?

36 Comments

MartyrofsandFeb 18, 20158 votes

Thresh is the "Renekton bar" of bot late. As long as he keeps the ability to pull allies across 2-3 walls to a target he hooked with his Q, or simply provided twice the distance of flash for an escape, he will remain insanely game breaking as a support.

BallisticMouseFeb 18, 20151 votes

Is that not very, very similar to a support with a stun?

Adc and support are trying to flee, Taric stuns for 1.6 seconds and the adc uses any escape they have and both are gone. This is all assuming the skills would be up and what not but its just the same as assuming Thresh will come from a distance away and throw the lantern instead of being there to peel.

KougaFeb 18, 20152 votes

Stunning one enemy =/= Retreating one ally. If you need to escape in bot lane you are facing 2, 3, or 4 enemies depending on how much they hate you at that moment. Taric stunning one of them for 1.6 seconds still lets the remaining get to the carry. Thresh pulling the Ally to safety gets them out of the threat range of all incoming enemies at once.

BallisticMouseFeb 19, 20151 votes

You're throwing around tons of "what ifs" to make it work. That shows how clearly invalid your point is.

MartyrofsandFeb 18, 20152 votes

Actually its very different. There is a difference in Thresh moving an allies champion twice the distance of flash with his W on a 15ish sec CD with some cdr, and both being safe, and in a champion using their escape+flash to go the same distance while leaving their support behind to fend for themselves or blow their own flash.

BallisticMouseFeb 19, 20151 votes

You want to hate on Thresh when so many ADCs and Supports could give the same result.

MartyrofsandFeb 19, 20152 votes

Um no there are no supports or adcs in the game that can flash/dash/etc the distance of Thresh lantern while making themselves and their adc safe. Your attempts to defend him are extremely shallow lacking any substance, logic, or sound reasoning.

Unless you are going to add something relevant, such as actual facts or examples, just go away and stop trolling.

BallisticMouseFeb 19, 20151 votes

Your attempts to tear him down are more than flawed. You're hating on Thresh's W for being the skills itself when it seems your real hate is its max range. It's max range is far but the very, very small chance Thresh is gonna be at or get to that distance just in time to save a teammate is so rare. You have a problem with a possibility, a small chance.

Caitlyn's E goes pretty far and can hop walls, Jinx can bind you and get very far herself and you can combine some of these with supports like Taric stun, Sona E/R and go even farther. You don't like these examples? Then look at your own, you're providing shoddy 'could be' examples and thats all.

You're a slightly above average player and act like you know everything about the game. Like anything you say is fact, Thresh's lantern is not an issue in the game. You're just being sour over a very rare occurrence that probably doesn't even occur at your level of play.

So how about you quit whining without any actual points or reason.

MartyrofsandFeb 19, 20152 votes

Um I'm not hating on Thresh, I'm expressing simple acts of hit kit. Thresh pulling people distances that far surpass flash or other forms of dashes is not some rare occurrence, when he initially throws the lantern he is already pretty close to flash range all he has to do is simply walk away and he has surpassed it. This doesn't even go to mention things like Thresh flashing when someone grabs his lantern, or using the 2nd part of his Q to further increase the range he can pull someone.

You want to act like Thresh's lantern is some kind of risky or inconsistent tool when it's one of the most consistent escape, or engage, tools in the game. It is one of the most game breaking skills any support has, and by far the most versatile skill any support has to date.

Lastly I'm not tearing him down, quite the opposite, I'm stating just how strong he really is without any attempt to hide those facts. There is a reason riot can't nerf thresh out of being the tier 1 support since his release no matter how much they have tried.

Lastly I would use the "your a bad player who shouldn't talk" argument when your sitting in Silver 4.

BallisticMouseFeb 20, 20151 votes

First of all, activating his Q again doesn't pull someone even farther, it pulls him to the hooked target. He could then Flay but that's not what we're talking about.

Secondly, There is no point in trying to convince you because you choose to stay ignorant.

Lastly, I didn't call you a bad player. I stated where you are on the LoL ranking system. You're slightly above average. You can over-react to the truth, which you seem to love to do, but that's not my problem. (Also, I used your highest placed ranked, I could have called you Silver as well because that's where you stand currently but I didn't c: )

MartyrofsandFeb 21, 20151 votes

Doesn't pull them any farther hm....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFRBDmGZQ-8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVIj1t5duP8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kDR7IeX-_Q

Oh look at that three examples of Thresh Lantern going beyond it's "max range" because Thresh flashed, or used the 2nd part of his Q as the person clicked it. I suggest you go type "thresh express" into your friendly youtube search engine and you will be met with several videos displaying plays like this, at all ranks, where Thresh Lantern is going massive distances by using these kinds of tricks.

There is no point trying to convince me because all you are trying to do is spread false, and frankly bias, information about a champ that you have displayed a rather significant ignorance about. If you actually have relevant facts, or evidence to support your claims, you know like I do mine, then you might have a chance but frankly you don't..

Lastly I'll eat your last comment, mainly that you didn't call me a bad player, I misread and took it wrong my bad. I will leave you with one more fun fact though, I'm not currently Silver, I was gold last season and so far I haven't played my placement matches for this season, IE as of right now I'm unranked.

BallisticMouseFeb 21, 20151 votes

Like I said it can happen, its just rare and its definitely far from game breaking. Very, very few people consider it an annoyance even.

You're currently ranked Silver in team games, therefore you are ranked. Just sayin.

MartyrofsandFeb 21, 20152 votes

Um you directly said "activating his Q again doesn't pull someone even farther" and yet actual gameplay shows otherwise. Being able to Lantern+flash/hook to set up a gank is a pretty basic skill when it comes to playing Thresh this isn't some amazing high skilled rarely happens strategy, it's something I see pretty much every game that has a Thresh in it, it's one o his defining characteristics.

The thing is you are here almost like you are trying to downplay his kit, almost as if you think I'm trying to say he needed to be nerfed. Hell you even make a comment about me "hating on thresh" and while I do not like Thresh, mainly because it was his release that took the support role from a variety of picks to "who can fight Thresh," situation I've long since accepted him for what he has become, and that is the standard for what all supports have to be able to achieve in order to be viable. If a support can't handle laning against Thresh it will not be viable, it's one of the reasons Zyra/Sona/Karma/etc don't see play and Janna/Morgana/Annie/etc are highly valued. While a lot of Thresh's kit is responsible for his strength his Lantern stands alone as being the strongest part of his kit primarily because of the versatility it provides to an already powerful kit without it.

Lastly, I have not played a single game of ranked in teams or solo Q. Where ever you are getting this ranking from, most likely lolking, is wrong. If you want to see where I really sit I suggest you log into the game itself and search for me there.

BallisticMouseFeb 21, 20151 votes

Whatever you say man.

No use trying to convince ignorant people, good day c:

Duke AnaxFeb 17, 20157 votes

It's certainly possible, by only buffing their effects on allied champions, but not on minions or enemies. That way the'y only be stronger when actually supporting someone.

SecretAgentHulkFeb 18, 20151 votes

I was going to say that supports are harder to balance because then they become super-broken midlaners, but no, you proved me wrong. That's not an issue if you only buff support abilities. I support this. (heh)

Big Nasty MèatFeb 17, 20154 votes

Yeah but eventually they nerfed Renekton anyway D:

A Slime AppearsFeb 18, 20154 votes

Implying the renekton bar still exists top lane? huhuhuhu

lojicianFeb 18, 20154 votes

While we're at it can we create a renekton bar for top lane instead of letting lissandra and company faceroll all over it?

Mandang0Feb 17, 20153 votes

have an upvote

Yasu0 is dogFeb 18, 20153 votes

I thought they did with Janna . They nerfed her right after though...

GhiefelsteinFeb 18, 20151 votes

And now we see Janna buffs on the PBE. There is still hope...

AxlStreamFeb 18, 20153 votes

I fail to see how supports are "weak"...

Morgana with a 3 second snare and a CC immune shield. Braum that's just there to defend his allies and boost their resiliance. Sona that can just walk up within 800 range (longer than any ADC's AA) and hit Q to hit not 1 but 2 strong poke. Let's not forget about Leona and Annie which when they get a catch or a good initiation off pretty much means a clean ace.

Supports ARE strong, just in the way they control a fight instead of participating in it.

KynamiFeb 18, 20152 votes

At absolute max range Sona Q will hit two minions for 40 each. Much damage, such wow.

She has to be just outside her AA range to have Q auto-target champions. And that Q is stupidly weak. She HAS to land an AA to get the better 2/3 of her damage off. If you are letting her AA you without trading back, either you were out of position or not paying attention.

And don't bother to bring up that "heal" because it costs way too much for what it does for several ranks and is the fastest way to be OOM and a floating 300g delivery. Easier to just back off for ~10 seconds and let passive regen and a biscuit bring you back up early on.

ArkenStormFeb 18, 20152 votes

idk what you smokin bruh. new raka is awesome.

KaisadiIIaFeb 18, 20152 votes

I've never ever had trouble dealing with Lulu top/mid (even when I'm terrible at top). Same for Alistar. I think they weren't really "abusive", just people were confounded because it was weird that they were actually good at top.

lojicianFeb 18, 20154 votes

People get better at abusing range advantage as you gain elo. Also it's not just being autowin in lane which lulu was for a while. It's outscaling every fighter in teamfights.

Alistar I liked because his bs low counterplay harass pattern allowed him to lane against the ranged shit that also has bs low counterplay harass.

OrangesilkFeb 17, 20151 votes

Woah, but the Renekton bar buffs were basically J4 and Maokai buffs, and look where that left us.

YOU BEEN WARNEDFeb 17, 20151 votes

There was a Malphite buff, malph FoTM inc.

GhiefelsteinFeb 17, 20151 votes

Rumble still enjoys his buff and is a competitive pick.

ErockandrollFeb 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Woah, but the Renekton bar buffs were basically J4 and Maokai buffs, and look where that left us.

Renekton Disappeared from the meta when TP got Buffed. Then Top lane shifted towards hypercarries. Which at the time meant Jax and Ryze.

lojicianFeb 18, 20153 votes

It's not just tp though having passive farming incentivized didn't help. It's also all the ranged top laners that are either much harder to shut down or beat him in lane while also outscaling him stupid hard. Renekton is an early game fighter and both those things are screwed over in this iteration of top lane/teamfight balance.

DecaedeusFeb 17, 20151 votes

Well, I think we have a pretty nice bar already existing with Thresh; now just to buff the rest up. I mean, Annie and Leona are both top-tier in terms of hard engage, so we don't need to touch them. Janna is the queen of disengage; again, leave her alone. Morgana could use some very incremental buffs, but Riot should be careful. (Please, don't extend Dark Binding's duration.) Nami, again, could use a tiny little bit of love, but she shouldn't eclipse all other supports like she used to. Soraka is a niche pick, but I think there is a unique reason to pick her and that's good. Sona needs love, but it's Riot and #betternerfsona isn't gonna stop anytime soon.

ArkenStormFeb 18, 20151 votes

dat hitobx doe

DecaedeusFeb 19, 20151 votes

You're referring to...? Morgana, perhaps? Yeah. Her Dark Binding is pretty huge, both in duration and in impact. Power might need to be allocated elsewhere, and the hitbox nerfed.

NoMonkuFeb 18, 20151 votes

imo it is kind of too hard to have a support bar. There are too many different playstyles with what the support and ADC are that it isn't very easy to do. A Renekton bar is easy because Renekton can beat EVERYTHING early or is at least supposed to be able to. Support wise, there isn't really a support that dominates that hard atm, at least not enough to basically guarentee a carry to 6+ and win them the game.