@Riot A Challenge For Your Next Champion Release

g07h4xf00·Sep 17, 2015·4 votes·695 views

Rito, I am issuing the Champion Design team the following challenge when creating the next champion to release:

Absolutely no true damage
Absolutely no %HP damage of any kind
No healing abilities (self or otherwise)
No dashes/jump/teleports/blinks/miscellaneous mobility spells.
No knock-ups
No three-hit procs
CHAMPION MUST HAVE A MANA POOL AND ACTUAL MANA COSTS.
No cooldown resets. Auto-attack resets are fine. Mana cost refund is fine (if it makes sense).
No skillshot Q ability that slows
Champion must be balanced within 3 patches of release (not perma-pick/ban, reasonably average win rates and pick rates).

Can you do that? There are already a few champions from many many years ago who fulfill this requirement or almost do so I think this is a plausible and reasonable request. I miss these types of champions.

30 Comments

IonianSep 17, 20151 votes

Is it ok if they fulfill most but not all of these requirements? Ahri

g07h4xf00Sep 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ssKrRAhI,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-17T18:59:30.072+0000)

Is it ok if they fulfill most but not all of these requirements?

I'd like to see ALL these requirements. Nautilus fulfills all these requirements except the knock-up on his ultimate. Just to give them a hint.

LeeerzeichenSep 17, 20152 votes

He has a mobillity spell, a cooldown reset and a spammable shield (= healing in my opinion).

g07h4xf00Sep 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He has a mobillity spell, a cooldown reset and a spammable shield (= healing in my opinion).

A shield is worse than a heal because it can't be amplified by item 3065 and the health doesn't stay with you. Don't believe me? Go try playing an ARAM game with a Soraka AND Sona on the enemy team, as opposed to say, a Orianna or JarvanIV .

In terms of cooldown reset, his Q refunds cooldown by half which is why I probably didn't consider this, but yes you're correct in that he can hook terrain to travel around. He's close, but not quite there.

LeeerzeichenSep 17, 20151 votes

But a heal can be reduced by 50% (grievous wounds)

YCitizenSnipsYSep 17, 20151 votes

I don't know how to break this too you but Naut has had a skill shot Q since his release, so he doesn't meet your criteria

g07h4xf00Sep 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't know how to break this too you but Naut has had a skill shot Q since his release, so he doesn't meet your criteria

But it doesn't slow. Also I never said he was perfect. He is close--almost fits the bill.

YCitizenSnipsYSep 17, 20151 votes

Oh I didn't see that part. Still your criteria still makes for a pretty boring champion.

You basically want a worst Darius.

Edit: after looking at your list, the only champ that immediately comes to mind that meets those qualifications is Udyr, A.K.A the "Running Simulator." I would much prefer not having more champions like him

g07h4xf00Sep 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Oh I didn't see that part. Still your criteria still makes for a pretty boring champion.

You basically want a worst Darius.

Edit: after looking at your list, the only champ that immediately comes to mind that meets those qualifications is Udyr, A.K.A the "Running Simulator." I would much prefer not having more champions like him

If you look at the list that user Dr Cyanide posted on the previous page he lists a number of champions who fit this qualification. Viktor is a powerful example of a balanced champion (he's only strong right now but not inherently because of his kit) that fits into this category and many players think he's fun and interesting.

Sivir is another champion that qualifies, and I don't think of her (or Viktor ) as running simulators by any means. That's like arguing that Katarina and Ryze are "keyboard mashing simulators". Just because a champion relies on movement speed over dashes and mobility spells doesn't make them inherently weak or boring.

If Rito wasn't so lazy they wouldn't recycle and re-hash the same old kit elements.

Consider this: where does a champion like Zac fit into the game? What can he do that no other champion can do as well or BETTER? What sorts of champions does he COUNTER-PICK? Strategies? Can you produce a situation in champion select where picking a Zac is absolutely the best choice you have?

YCitizenSnipsYSep 17, 20151 votes

I'm just saying of the four champions you listed, Katarina is probably the only one who would be recommended by your average LoL player as fun. Sivir and Viktor were pretty much hipster picks that no one cared for until a meta came along that favored them. Personally I could never consider Ryze fun, especially with his original kit. "But that's like my opinion man."

And of the one's DrCyanide Listed many of those champions wouldn't be considered healthy or good game design, that's why 7 of those champions on that list have had to have their kits changed. And really not any of them ever have high percentage of players playing them unless they are strong.

Me personally I think a champion that maintains a high percentage of play despite performing poorly, such as Lucian and Lee Sin, would be a better indication of fun since people are willing to choose them even if statistically its not the best choice. Where as once again the champions you two have listed seem to only see play when they are considered strong and easier to win with. My two cents.

Am I saying your list can't be accomplished, No. Am I saying your list can't be used to make a fun champion, No. What I am saying is that the list you made makes it really hard to produce a genuinely fun champ and not one that only sees play if they are the better choice for winning the game, because winning is always fun amirite.

g07h4xf00Sep 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm just saying of the four champions you listed, Katarina is probably the only one who would be recommended by your average LoL player as fun. Sivir and Viktor were pretty much hipster picks that no one cared for until a meta came along that favored them. Personally I could never consider Ryze fun, especially with his original kit. "But that's like my opinion man."

And of the one's DrCyanide Listed many of those champions wouldn't be considered healthy or good game design, that's why 7 of those champions on that list have had to have their kits changed. And really not any of them ever have high percentage of players playing them unless they are strong.

Me personally I think a champion that maintains a high percentage of play despite performing poorly, such as Lucian and Lee Sin, would be a better indication of fun since people are willing to choose them even if statistically its not the best choice. Where as once again the champions you two have listed seem to only see play when they are considered strong and easier to win with. My two cents.

Am I saying your list can't be accomplished, No. Am I saying your list can't be used to make a fun champion, No. What I am saying is that the list you made makes it really hard to produce a genuinely fun champ and not one that only sees play if they are the better choice for winning the game, because winning is always fun amirite.

Making new champions is supposed to be hard. How many champions does the current game currently? How many of them are truly unique? How is it that a game like Dota 2 who doesn't suffer from this problem of "every champion and their mother has mobility/%hp damage/knock-ups/etc out the ass" is able to make fun champions? What about ANY other games (like Warcraft III and its derivatives which eventually lead to LoL being created) do this?

Most of these "decisions" Rito makes about adding something to a champion kit seems so arbitrary. "Let's see let's make a champion with a unique ultimate (Kindred) but she can't be too unique so let's throw in a dash ability, a 3-hit-proc attack, and some %max HP damage, why not?" There's nothing thematic about Kindred that requires them to have a special effect occur after 3 basic attacks. "Well they are spirit-y animal things we want in the jungle so lets give them a dash". They don't need this either. What about a movement speed boost (something that can be slowed aka counterplay)? Also I don't see what Rito has against flat damage. Every champion in the game used to deal flat damage. Why is this suddenly a thing they dislike so much that they make it a point to give EVERY champion some form of %HP damage??

I thought Bard and TahmKench are two of the more better designed champions that have been released lately. Do they violate some items of the list in the OP? Sure, but not by much. Could give flat damage on his devourer instead of %HP damage. Bard magical journey is unique because it enables all champions in the area to re-locate themselves a vast distance if they choose to. His ultimate is pretty game-changing as well. Just some examples. Again, before people state the OBVIOUSLY I REALIZE THEY DON'T MEET ALL REQUIREMENTS OF THIS LIST, RELAX.

YCitizenSnipsYSep 17, 20151 votes

My original point that I was making in response to your thread was how to make a fun champion, which I supported with an argument of "champs that maintain a higher play rate despite performing poorly is a good indication of what most people view as fun." So those first two paragraphs are completely out the blue. I was skeptical of how you can make a champion following that criteria and still make them fun.

To actually expand on the new points your bringing up, I can't say why some people see Dota's champion design as more favorable or diverse as Leagues because I don't play it. But Apparently League's Champion design can't be too repetitive or it still wouldn't be this successful.

Also neither Kindred or Bard's ultimate are unique, both take a preexisting concept from the game that was only available single use, Bard and Zhonyas Kindred and Trynd's ult, and turn then into aoe's.

You seem to formulate your opinions of what is good champion design by whats popular on these boards, you hate mobility, you hate knock ups, you hate %hp damage. So tell me what do you think are good abilities and how many of them are truly unique.

On a personal bias, Bard can stasis his own teammates against their will and Kench can hand deliver an ally to the enemy team. Good design my ass.

IonianSep 17, 20151 votes

Lux well I guess you like this champion

g07h4xf00Sep 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ssKrRAhI,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-17T19:09:45.297+0000)

well I guess you like this champion

She's not my favorite, but I have no problem with her.

Unward49Sep 17, 20151 votes

Eh, if you like that kind of thing.

Personally I don't enjoy playing this game where I'm not a champion who can get over terrain. To me, the ability to maneuver across terrain is where you can best get your edge in a fight. The ability to initiate from over a wall out of vision or to slip away when you should die is the best way to get your edge.

It is one of the methods by which better players can defeat worse players. This is a desirable quality in a competitive video game.

g07h4xf00Sep 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Eh, if you like that kind of thing.

Personally I don't enjoy playing this game where I'm not a champion who can get over terrain. To me, the ability to maneuver across terrain is where you can best get your edge in a fight. The ability to initiate from over a wall out of vision or to slip away when you should die is the best way to get your edge.

It is one of the methods by which better players can defeat worse players. This is a desirable quality in a competitive video game.

If you REALLY need to get over a wall to initiate a fight then use summoner 4

Your team may not be able to follow you (they don't necessarily do now) but if that's all you care about then summoner 4 already exists. Otherwise, if we already have mobility spells on champions then what's the point of ? Clearly we don't need it anymore right?

Reformed DunniSep 17, 20151 votes

Oh you mean horribly boring and simple champs?

g07h4xf00Sep 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Oh you mean horribly boring and simple champs?

You know there was a time when champions were released when their kits weren't overloaded with these same recurring things. The problem with recycling these elements is that you prevent yourself from actually thinking of a champion design that would be neat and UNIQUE. The less unique a champion is, the less likely it will be picked if there's another similar champ who's numbers happen to be higher.

g07h4xf00Sep 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Oh you mean horribly boring and simple champs?

Also you DO REALIZE that other games (Dota 2 for example, a similar game) already contain plenty of characters that don't have any of these things but are considered fun and unique, and are perfectly viable? You make it seem like it's impossible in the history of video games for there to ever be a character who lacks these particular traits to ever be fun or interesting to play. Or, are you saying that League of Legends is too deep in this mindset that it can't be done?

Unward49Sep 17, 20151 votes

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm simply explaining why I think that, when it comes specifically to the mobility point, I don't have a problem with high mobility champs and indeed, a high mobility meta.

g07h4xf00Sep 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm simply explaining why I think that, when it comes specifically to the mobility point, I don't have a problem with high mobility champs and indeed, a high mobility meta.

Okay, but then you MUST even the playing field by giving EVERY champion a mobility ability because otherwise the more time that passes mobility creep kicks in and champions without mobility abilities become unplayable.

Unward49Sep 17, 20151 votes

Or, you give them something that's so damn good, they can be a solid pick without it.

Soraka As probably the best example of this.

She doesn't need any mobility to do what she does and she fits right in with a team that's zipping and diving and dashing all around her.

Edit: But all I was saying is that while Soraka is a perfectly solid pick, I would never choose to play her, because I don't enjoy that style. I like high mobility. But, if you like doing other things in the game and you feel you want a new champion to play along those lines then absolutely let Rito know about that and I'll just shut up and leave and let you get on with doing that. Don't let me de-rail this any further if that is your intention.

g07h4xf00Sep 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Or, you give them something that's so damn good, they can be a solid pick without it.

As probably the best example of this.

She doesn't need any mobility to do what she does and she fits right in with a team that's zipping and diving and dashing all around her.

Edit: But all I was saying is that while Soraka is a perfectly solid pick, I would never choose to play her, because I don't enjoy that style. I like high mobility. But, if you like doing other things in the game and you feel you want a new champion to play along those lines then absolutely let Rito know about that and I'll just shut up and leave and let you get on with doing that. Don't let me de-rail this any further if that is your intention.

I'm just saying that as a general trend champions are becoming more and more mobile than before. There will come a point where whatever a particular champion is good at will be outshined by their lack of mobility. There's a reason it's called "mobility creep". It's not an instant--it's happening over a series of patches and new champion releases generating more and more of the problem.

Subject 5Sep 17, 20151 votes

Passive: CHAMPION respawns 35% quicker than normal, however the ultimate may be used to respawn ASAP

Q: CHAMPION moves 99% slower attached champion shares similar traits, while also doing 20% less damage as well as his chosen one. This amplifies his spells by 50%

W: CHAMPION sacrifices (%HP would make sense here, and would make things STILL ORIGINAL) HP instantly, if an ally is attached to him, the health will critically devastate CHAMPION however the ally will be healed for the HP sacrificed. If the ally is overhealed, the ally will have a temporary shield lasting as long as shen's shield. If an enemy is chained with CHAMPION, the enemy champion will slowly, over a 60 second period, receive 100% of the hp sacrificed. While perfoming on an enemy, CHAMPION will have extremely limited vision, require an extensive channel time and a brief period of time to recover which will cripple CHAMPION with a 99% slow and is unable to regenerated HP until 3 seconds has passed.

E: CHAMPION sacrifices HP and immobilizes CHAMPION while an ally gains a shield equal to 100% of his current health. This shield is absorbed by the shield, however damage is taken by CHAMPION by 200%. (Damage that would normally equal 100 damage would become 200 damage.)

While (E) is active, CHAMPION loses all armor and magic resist, does not affect partner.

R: CHAMPION chooses, in a large area of affect, an ally or an enemy to grant the ultimate. The opponents closest to the selected champion are given the affect depending on how many of each team is closest to the AOE. (Imagine a circle, three allies are inside of the circle and 2 enemies. The allies would get the ultimate, not the enemies.) if the AOE is even, the same number of teamates and enemies are met, this ultimate will be put onto cooldown however cease to take effect.

Allies: CHAMPION sacrifices control over the self and is unable to control CHAMPION for the duration of the ultimate. All allies gain E at the cost of the usual price of one person, however imminent death will occur. The shield is maximized to take a 100% damage rather than 200% and a 50% hp shield called "Dark matter" is given to CHAMPION after all HP is gone. Enemies: CHAMPION gains an enormous HP buff, rejuvinating the entirety of his HP at the cost of imminent death within 30 seconds and an additional 50% shield is given to him. The entirety of the enemy team gains a loss of vision in generality as well as a loss of vision from wards for the duration. All of his spells become amplified.

Passive: The ultimate may be used to respawn ASAP

I call her Vuda.

DrCyanideSep 17, 20151 votes

List of current champions that fit the bill:

Ashe (although her Q use to slow) Karthus Lux Veigar Xerath

No dashes/jump/teleports/blinks/miscellaneous mobility spells.

uh... does that or does that not count spells that give a burst of movement speed?

Cassiopeia (although she has the random movement speed from her Q) Draven (a movement speed buff on his E) Evelynn (another movement speed boost on Q) MissFortune (movement speed passive) Ryze (although he gains bonus movement speed during his ult) Sivir (although her passive and her ult give bonus movement speed) Teemo (although his W gives him a movement speed buff) Viktor (although his Q augment, part of his kit, gives him a movement speed buff and his W augment is a knockup)

I think it's safe to say some people have an overly glamorized version of what is and isn't in older kits...

g07h4xf00Sep 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

List of current champions that fit the bill:

(although her Q use to slow)

uh... does that or does that not count spells that give a burst of movement speed?

(although she has the random movement speed from her Q) (a movement speed buff on his E) (another movement speed boost on Q) (movement speed passive) (although he gains bonus movement speed during his ult) (although her passive and her ult give bonus movement speed) (although his W gives him a movement speed buff) (although his Q augment, part of his kit, gives him a movement speed buff and his W augment is a knockup)

I think it's safe to say some people have an overly glamorized version of what is and isn't in older kits...

Movement speed boosts are fine. When I think of mobility spells I think of escapes and gap closers. No one REALLY considers Draven's Blood Rush a "gap closer" or "escape" but more of a "movement speed steroid", for example

DrCyanideSep 17, 20151 votes

So cross Sivir, Cass, Teemo, and Evelynn off the second list, since those ones are pretty clearly gap closers or escape focused.

In the end we're left with 6 Mages and 3 Marksmen.

g07h4xf00Sep 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So cross Sivir, Cass, Teemo, and Evelynn off the second list, since those ones are pretty clearly gap closers or escape focused.

In the end we're left with 6 Mages and 3 Marksmen.

No, because movement speed buffs aren't mobility spells. You can't go over walls. They can be hindered by slows. Mobility spells I'm referring to are dashes and jumps like Gnar which displace your champion further and faster than what your movement speed STAT allows for. Don't be difficult. Cassiopeia is not a mobile champion by ANY metrics.

g07h4xf00Sep 17, 20151 votes

By definition, recycling and rehashing too-similar elements of champion kits too often creates a situation where entire champions are irrelevant and lack uniqueness. If a champion isn't unique then that champion is redundant and shouldn't really be in the game.