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5.16 looks like literally one the dumbest patches in the history of the game (item change analysis).

g07h4xf00··358 votes·28,515 views

If you haven't heard already, here is a preview of patch 5.16: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/yMtrbjGs-core-defense-items-pass-516

This post literally gave me EbolAIDS. The amount of bad ideas in this post blows my fucking mind. Let's break down the changes, shall we? This will be a long post so I will have a TL;DR in every section.

item 1033 , item 1057 , item 3211 , item 3065 , and item 3102 are all being buffed by either 5 MR and 50% HP regen, and/or lowering the price of the item. This means MR is better, right? Wrong. The problem with MR itemization is not the gold efficiency of the stats, but the uselessness of its passives. 150% HP regen does nothing in the MIDDLE of a fight (unless you are DrMundo who is one of the shittiest tanks in the game now). The 5 extra MR isn't going to save you from sustained-magic damage champions (who are considered strongest now in the meta) like Azir Cassiopeia KogMaw Viktor . In the same way 100 armor by itself isn't enough to deal with champions like Jinx Vayne , neither will 60 MR really do much against many mages. If you want to improve MR itemization, you need to give more options and actually have the MR items feel UNIQUE with good passives or active abilities. An good example of an MR item with a good passive/active that actually feels effective is item 3180 . BRING BACK FORCE OF NATURE!

As a tank, your two major MR items to choose from are essentially item 3102 and item 3065 . They both give the same MR, roughly the same HP and HP regen. Your question becomes "do I want a 45-second cooldown spell shield or 10% CDR with 20% increased healing?" These "unique" passives feel like such a subpar choice since most of the time, there is only one correct answer and you don't feel the difference as you would if you had a choice between item 3075 and say, item 3143. How would these MR items actually help me not be melted by sustained magic damage? It protects me against burst, great. That's about all it does. It's so underwhelming that even squishy champions like ADCs and some mages build item 3102 not because of its tank stats but more because of the lifeline effect that the spell shield provides. Tanks are okay with getting hit by burst. Burst is fine. Sustained damage is the problem and MR items just don't give enough to help you survive.

In other words, think about the times you've played against a 4-AD comp vs a 4-AP comp. A 4-AD comp can more easily be punished with tanky builds such as item 3047 item 3110 item 3143 item 3075. Having a build like this gives you some feeling of "I'm unstoppable" and exploits the fact that the enemy comp is unbalanced. How do you punish a 4-AP comp? Say you build item 3102 item 3065 item 3190 item 3111 . Do you ever feel "unstoppable" or strategically overpowering in this case? As a tank player, not really. As a quick aside: I play vs 5-AP comps in ARAM all the time where you technically have more MR options but they feel even less useful. In Summoner's Rift, the enemy team might have 4 APs but they'll always have an ADC, so not only will you not feel that "unstoppable" against magic damage but then you've invested so much into MR (a CLEARLY inferior stat to armor) that the enemy ADC just shreds you.

**TL;DR: MR items are still shitty, but 50g cheaper. Biggest non-solution to the enduring problem that is MR itemization. **

Which brings me to my next point about the MR item changes which is the biggest problem with them:

item 3105 Aegis of the Legion Cost: 1900 --> 1600 Recipe Change: Null Magic Mantle + Crystalline Bracer HP Regen: Gains 100% Base HP Regen. Aura MR: Magic Resistance Aura changed from 20 --> 15. Aura Regen: No longer grants HP Regen as an Aura.

item 3105 used to give 20 MR aura and 75% HP regen aura. That means that previously, a champion that had item 3065 with a item 3105 on their team had 55 + 20 = 75 MR and 100% + 75% = 175% HP regen. With this patch 5.16, these two items will now give 60 + 15 = 75 MR and 150% HP Regen. So basically you have the same MR and less HP regen than before, which is an overal net nerf. Oh, but you can get MORE HP regen if you (the solo laner) buys it now.

item 3190 Locket of the Iron Solari Total Cost: 2800 --> 2750 Shielding Active: Shield power increased by 50%. ( 50 - 230 --> 75 - 345 ) Shielding Duration: Shield Duration goes from 5 --> 2

Shield power increases by 50% and shield duration decreases by 60%. Net nerf. This is supposed to be better against burst, but the problem is that burst typically applies to one target at a time and yet the item 3190 shields EVERYONE on your team (nearby). This is now more of a greedy shield because it'll now be used when a single target is in danger from (typically single-target) burst rather than your entire team is taking AOE damage. Doesn't item 3401 active already do this, but better? The whole point of item 3190 is that it's supposed to be a pro-team item rather than a "I'm just going to boost myself" item.

item 3190 is an item best built be supports and junglers because it's a relatively selfless item to build and is relatively cheap. A few solo-lane tanks might build it in place of item 3065 depending on the enemy team comp. I play diamond ELO SoloQ (D5 and D4 but still) and ALL THE TIME I have games where there's 3-4 AP team comps on the enemy side and I don't see a single item 3190 on my team. Players ALREADY don't build this item very much. Nerfing its stats (yes, it's a net nerf) makes it even less likely that anyone on your team will buy it.

**TL;DR: Even less players will build item 3190 now. Tank supports get shafted yet again. **

Let's get to the core of the problems with this patch: armor item changes.

item 3110 Frozen Heart Total Cost: 2450 --> 2600 Armor: 100 --> 90

Rito must really not understand their own game. Not only are they making this item more expensive (a direct nerf), but they are also making the stats WORSE. This is part of the reason why ADCs became so unbearable last season (conveniently around the time Worlds was going to happen). You buffed ADCs while simultaneously nerfing armor. This is a bad thing to do. I personally wouldn't mind it if ONLY the cost increased. Why remove stats? Why? Does Rito not remember a season or two ago there was a time when NOBODY built item 3110. It was considered a niche item because it only gave 90 armor and was extremely expensive. This was also back when item 3110 gave a 20% attack speed slow. There were times when this item jumped around between 90 armor, 95 armor, 99 armor, and now finally 100 armor. Now it's back to 90 armor. Why? The whole point of making it 100 armor is so that it would normalize with other items in its category like item 3075. I thought Riot liked to normalize items of the same class/type to having similar base stats as each other so that you build them based on their unique passives and such. That's why we had a major patch that made AP item standard 80/100 AP at a nicely round cost (2500g, 3000g). Last year we had ADC item changes that normalized major AD items to 80AD and BF at 50. This change to item 3110 completely goes against this philosophy by now saying "if you want the most armor you have to buy item 3075 that is your only option now." Why remove this normalization?

A major reason a lot of tanks build item 3110 in place of (or earlier than) item 3075 is because many of them kind of need the mana to cast their abilities. Now you are punishing tanks who use mana by saying "you get 10 armor less than item 3075 now for literally no fucking reason." Also keep in mind that item 3110 is one of the biggest counters to item 3153 and item 3710, items that was RECENTLY BUFFED. Why would you do this? Seriously, someone at Riot please explain why this can possibly be a good idea. This item is also popular on supports because of its pro-team utility stats. Recall that supports are one of the poorest champions in the game. They now have to spend even MORE GOLD on a pro-team item and get less survivability stats from it.

**TL;DR: item 3110 nerfed possibly back to the old days of never seeing play anymore (its stats are strictly worse than they were back when nobody ever bought it). Supports get shafted yet again. **

item 3075 Thornmail Total Cost: 2100 --> 2300 Passive Changed: Instead of reflecting 30% of pre-mitigation damage, it instead reflects 15% of pre-mitigation damage and 25% of your bonus Armor.

This is possibly the worst change of the whole patch. Once again, Rito is simultaneously nerfing an item while making it more expensive. There are two major uses for this item:

  1. You buy this early top lane against a ranged AA champion (like Fiora Tryndamere Quinn Vayne Jayce and sometimes Gnar ) so you don't get poked out of lane / kited to death
  2. You buy this in mid/late game against ADCs (Jinx Ashe Vayne etc) so you don't get shredded to death without doing SOME damage to them

Let's quickly look at both of these scenarios and do a bit of math.

Scenario 1: Old thornmail damage did 30% of AA damage, before MR calculation. Let's compare the new item with the old item. At what point are they equal? Let's say that with runes+masteries and item 3075 you have 120 bonus armor, early game. If we take 25% of this, we get 30. Now we see at what point does AA*.3 = AA*.15 + 30? Solving for AA, we get AA = 200. As long as the enemy you are laning against does under 200 damage in a single auto (before armor calculation), the new item 3075 will be better. At about the time you can even finish item 3075 as a first item (which will be later because it is now 200g more expensive), your enemy AA laner will have about 150 or so AD. That means in a normal AA, assuming your opponent doesn't crit (Tryndamere), doesn't use any AD steroids (Vayne Quinn), or doesn't increase their on-hit damage with some popular ranged top-laning AD item (item 3078 item 3153), the new item 3075 passive should be better than the old one. However, if your opponent does ANY of these fairly common things, the new item 3075 will be strictly and objectively shittier.

A few notes about scenario (1): rushing item 3075 first item is already dangerous and ill-advised, and highly situational as it is only really viable against specific ranged laners that aren't very good in the meta to begin with. Even against Gnar (who has a super annoying spammy kit that includes magic damage for some reason), building item 3075 that early is super sub-optimal.

Scenario 2: The most common scenario is building this mid/late game against an ADC. We use the same equation, but now we assume that your bonus armor at this point is about 200 (for the sake of argument). If we take 25% of 200, we get 50. That means we now have AA*.3 = AA*.15 + 50. Solving, we get AA = 333.33. that means as long as the auto-attack does 333 damage (before armor calculation) or less, the new item 3075 will be better.

The only champions that this will actually be helpful against is Kalista and maybe Lucian . Both of these champions already have a hard time killing tanks due to their kits and the nature of their build. This new item 3075 is most punishing against ADC champions that EITHER don't crit OR don't have AD steroids. Even against Blue Ezreal you will get basic attacks / Q's on you with on-hit proc damage surpassing 350 so the new item 3075 will be worse for this.

Note: Thornmail was another major outlier in terms of power effectiveness - but - it is only strong in the presence of high health pools. Because Thornmail is such an effective standalone Armor item and additional Armor doesn't really make Thornmail much stronger -** Thornmail is strongest when you can stack Health** (as is the case for most pure resistance items.)

This is literally a contradiction. First you say item 3075 is ONLY strong with high HP pools but then you say it's a powerful standalone item. Which is it? The current item 3075 gives 0 HP so by your own logic it's weak unless you already built other items that give substantial amounts of HP. But if you've already build other items that give HP, then it's no longer "standing alone" now, is it?

How can you possibly argue that additional armor items don't make item 3075 stronger? The whole point of item 3075 is "can I do more damage to you than you do to me?" Here's how it currently works:

Basic attack physical damage hits the target with item 3075 -> item 3075 reflects 30% magic damage (before armor calculation) -> target receives physical damage reduced by the TOTAL ABOUT OF ARMOR THEY HAVE -> attacker receives magic damage reduced by the TOTAL AMOUNT OF MR THEY HAVE

You obviously need to build more armor so that item 3075 is more effective. Saying that additional armor doesn't affect the power of item 3075 is like saying that the power of an ADC attacking item 3075 is only affected by their on-hit basic attack damage and not MR? So, do ADCs build less damage because they are against a item 3075 ? Do tanks with item 3075 only build HP items now? This makes no sense.

I can literally feel my T-cell count shrinking after reading this paragraph.

The new item 3075 will be strictly and objectively worse than the current item 3075. This isn't even an argument / contest. Making item 3075 scale on bonus armor is bad because most of the time, bonus armor only goes as high as 200 (maybe 300 tops) whereas on-hit damage (due to the nature of critical hits) can go as high as 800+. This isn't a question of "trade-offs" or making the item "more situational" or "shifting the power around." This is a matter of "we don't want this item to be as good anymore or built as often."

**TL;DR: item 3075 getting gutted. Not a single redeeming thing about this change. Rito hates tanks. **

item 3143 Randuin's Omen Total Cost: 2850 --> 2700 Health: 500 --> 400 Armor: 70 --> 60 Cold Steel Passive: Unchanged Crit Damage Reduction: Now reduces critical strike damage taken by 10%. Slow Active: Duration no longer scales off Armor and Magic Resistance, instead it will always slow for a flat four seconds.

The 20% less HP is a HUGE change. This is less survivability against true damage and magic damage. The 10 less armor and 100 less HP less survivability against physical damage (including champions that crit).

The 10 less armor and 100 less HP on in exchange for 10% crit reduction is not worth it. Only one champion on the enemy team crits and when they do, it's 55% of the time (tops).

So on average it's a 55%*10% = 5.5% average damage reduction against crit champions. However, 10 less armor and 100 less HP is 8-10% less damage reduction on average against ALL SOURCES OF PHYSICAL DAMAGE.

TL;DR: New item 3143 is strictly worse than the current one even with the proposed gimmicky passive which will not make up for the lost stats.

item 3800 Righteous Glory Total Cost: 2500 --> 2400 Catalyst Passive: Loses Catalyst Passive on Upgrade.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD RITO PLEASE STOP NERFING THIS ITEM. This is Rito's not-so-subtle way of telling us that this item is meant only for supports. item 3800 in the current patch is ALREADY STRICTLY WORSE than it was when the item was first launched in pre-season, when nobody bought it. Nerfing it even more makes it so that laners (and I would say even junglers) don't want this item anymore. The item 3010 is so good for laning and jungling because it provides the sustain for you to now have to recall as often and do more with your time. This basically means if you want item 3800, you get it super late in the game and just sit on a 1200g item 3010 in the meantime.

Notes: Catalyst has two clear upgrades - a rush item (Rod of ze Ages) or Righteous Glory (Team Fight).

No. Now item 3010 has one clear upgrade. item 3027 for laners, item 3800 for supports, and nothing for junglers because it's not worth the item slot anymore.

One of the reasons we've tuned down RG over time is that whenever its strong enough to be rushed as first item, we tend to dislike how early skirmishes get decided.

Why? How do skirmishes get decided? What don't you like about it? item 3800 was the perfect play-making item. It gave melee champions the ability to initiate and engage on kitey poke champions. It made it so that team work and coordination was highly rewarded. It made it so that a team that otherwise lacked pick potential now have an item they can fall upon and rely on. It made it so non-mobile or immobile champions who aren't keeping up with the League of Mobility had a fucking tool to deal with those pesky slippery champions. It make it so that stagnant poke comps and boring drawn-out games would have some action and plays. Isn't Rito all about the LC$BIGPLAY$??

Trying some minor experimental stuff to discourage RG as first-pick up by giving it a clear tradeoff from its counterpart - while also making it slightly easier to build later in the game.

It's not a trade-off if it's strictly worse. Fuck that. I don't understand what Rito has against this item. For once in the longest time they release an item that is unique and game-changing but also conducive to teamwork and group play and all they've done to it is nerf it into the ground.

**TL;DR: Rito may as well delete item 3800 because it's being nerfed into absolute garbage. They may as well rename it from "Righteous Glory" to "Mediocre Kudos." Supports shafted YET AGAIN! **

Cinderhulk Base Health: 300 --> 400 Health Multiplier: 25% --> 15%

Remember the days when tank junglers were absolutely irrelevant and just never played? Apparently Rito doesn't remember, because this is exactly where these item changes are headed. This might be the final nail in the coffin for tank junglers. The tank meta ended a few patches ago. The dominant junglers now are Evelynn Elise Nidalee and RekSai. What do they all have in common? They aren't Cinderhulk junglers. The exception to this is RekSai , who can remain relevant because she will just switch back to building item 3707. Shyvana doesn't even build it anymore. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Nunu junglers switched to building item 3710 or item 3708 after this change. What's the fucking point of this? Champions like Sejuani Gragas and Amumu are no longer perma pick/ban every game anymore. The current Cinderhulk allows them to stay somewhat relevant. This change would make it so that Sejuani Gragas will slip completely back into unviability and Amumu too (in Solo Queue, anyway).

I understand that the original Cinderhulk (when it was released) needed nerfs and it was getting out of hand when some players were taking it into top lane. At least in top lane, some weaker champions like DrMundo Sion and Shyvana could use it to become a threat. Honestly, it's already in a good enough spot that's it's not dominating the meta anymore.

TL;DR: Rito hates tank junglers and want them out of the meta completely. Cinderhulk has been nerfed enough--this is overkill.

Rito, please re-evaluate these changes. You're making a mistake in every sense of the word. Every time you choose to simultaneously nerf one group of champions along with their items along with the costs of those items, while ALSO buffing other champions and builds they play against, you see major and drastic changes in the meta that are typically greater than you imagined and will lead to even more changes/tweaks in future patches after a particular group of champions gets out of hand. Remember Tristana at Worlds last year? She was basically the "pick ban or lose" champion of Worlds last year who got completely out of hand (thanks to a lot of similar pre-Worlds changes you've made) that led to an overall worse quality of game and necessary remedial changes AFTER Worlds to fix your own follies. You're perpetuating a never-ending cycle of buff->nerf->buff->nerf->... that isn't really going anywhere. Please reconsider these proposed changes.

The reason I bring this up here is because it feels like the PBE has consistently failed to filter out bad ideas that make it to Live patch after patch. Upvote this if you agree/dislike these changes.

EDIT: Actually the item 3143 change was a typo, it now gives 400 HP (down from 500HP). What a disaster! This makes it even worse! I thought the changes were a net positive but now it's definitely a net negative.

268 Comments

Count Buffon83 votes

Wow. Devourer meta out of control, better nerf Cinderhulk. WTF?!?

item 3070 Sejuani item 3070

RocketRelm22 votes

[{quoted}](name=Count Buffon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n1KJiBUl,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-08-05T02:04:20.949+0000)

Wow. Devourer meta out of control, better nerf Cinderhulk. WTF?!?

item 3070 Sejuani item 3070

This made me realize that "XXXX, Better Nerf Cinderhulk" is at this point as much or more relevant than "Better Nerf Irellia". How many times was Cinderhulk nerfed, even after it's long since stopped being meta dominating?

Who's with me and thinks this should become a catchphrase?

FFL Ikarus8 votes

Riot has no idea of how to balance, biggest game company in the f* world and they don't have enough competent teams to balance their metas, unless that they don't want to, and whoever is leading this is some cocky bastard who wants to force his personal ideals into a 70 million monthly players game. I really have no idea as to why someone could be so dumb, if not by intention.

Reminds me of governaments. #RITOHATE

Just kidding. But this patch sucks balls badly item 3070

g07h4xf003 votes

[{quoted}](name=FFL Ikarus,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n1KJiBUl,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2015-08-05T11:04:01.757+0000)

Riot has no idea of how to balance, biggest game company in the f* world and they don't have enough competent teams to balance their metas, unless that they don't want to, and whoever is leading this is some cocky bastard who wants to force his personal ideals into a 70 million monthly players game. I really have no idea as to why someone could be so dumb, if not by intention.

Reminds me of governaments. #RITOHATE

Just kidding. But this patch sucks balls badly item 3070

Rito always goes into this cycle where they temporarily fix a part of their game / make a group of champions viable and then IMMEDIATELY proceed to undoing it. Season 3 Bruisers got massive nerfs in the beginning and then gradually went into non-existence by seasons' end when Assassins were dominant. After the Season 3 Worlds when Assassins were dominant, they were systematically nerfed back into irrelevance and then ADCs took over. Then Tanks were given some viability and now they are getting nerfed back into non-existence so ADCs can reign supreme. It's the same cycle over and over. Ranged ADCs will always come out on top in the end, in the grand scheme of things.

God forbid they allow Bruisers, Tanks, Assassins, and ADCs to all be viable and strong at the same time. Nope.

Penta Penguin4 votes

I have always hated the Feral Flare / Devour mechanic. The double-hit is a niche effect that I like playing on some champions like Udyr and Xinxaoi. But I don't understand why i thas to be gated behind "run around and spam these points" when we already spam points like Gold. What does this have to do with the playstyle of champions like Udyr or Xin'xiao? I have stuns, move-speed, gap-closers... but nah I need to farm the f*cking jungle.

I would love to have Typhoon Claws over this.

Count Buffon3 votes

On second thought, it takes 850 bonus health outside of Cinderhulk itself to break even with the +100 health intended to offset the scaling buff. Old: (850+300)*1.25 = 1437.5 New: (850+400)*1.15 = 1437.5.

850 bonus health is less than Warmog's + masteries at mid-game. Any bonus health beyond that (before Cinderhulk) is lost at a 10% rate (after Cinderhulk). So if you go Warmog's+Randuin's, your Randuin's loses 40HP. But you're actually losing 130HP because Randuin's got nerfed too (lose another 100 HP, but un-lose 10% of that 100 from Cinderhulk scaling). Randuin's costs 150 less, but Warmog's costs 250 more, so no gain there either - you pay 100 gold to lose 130HP.

Anyway, Cinderhulk on its own is somewhat secondary as far as nerfs go, and you can actually have a better mid-game than before if you're not Sejuani or Volibear. And... yeah, those haven't been played as much lately.

On Sejuani, I might have a core build like this: item 3709 item 3083 item 3143 item 3065 item 3020 By late-game, health has been nickeled and dimed down by more than 130+40 (spirit visage). Probably 200ish.

So with a full build on a health tank, the health nerf to Randuin's strikes a second time through the Cinderhulk nerf. This of course stacks with other nickel-and-dime nerfs on armor/MR/passives. Tanks who focus more on resists are somewhat less screwed by the Cinderhulk nerf than this.

(Also, wow... I didn't notice the patch when they nerfed Cinderhulk so that IT NEVER RAMPS UP TO DOING AS MUCH DAMAGE AS SUNFIRE EVER. It's 60% as much damage, period. Screw you, hahaha, you wanted Sunfire to be core on Sejuani before, but now Cinderhulk is core, but it does 40% less damage, trololol. I'd buy something else instead on Sej if they weren't all garbage and they didn't force jungler items on everyone by making them all OP-but-jungler-DRM-locked...)

Some remarks on the others:

item 3075 Thornmail is probably the most severe nerf after Randuin's.

item 3143 The big problem with Randuin's is... whoops, -10% crit damage does absolutely nothing in the BORK meta. Maybe Jinx/Sivir/Corki or something might build it because they need raw AD. Do we really want Randuin's to become trash against 50% or more of the ADCs in the meta just because the passive assumes S3 ADC builds? When the active is a nice and generally useful thing to have otherwise? AUGH.

item 3110 I just hate having to pay gold for mana. By the time you can afford this item, mana has become a junk stat. Who needs to buy 400 mana other than Blitzcrank and Singed? Muramana users and Ryze mostly? IMO this item needed to be super-efficient in gold because mana is a stupidly-designed resource in LOL, designed to become irrelevant 90% of the time by sometime near the end of the laning phase. And yeah, the really supporty nature of it as opposed to the selfish Thornmail also makes the case for keeping it the old way instead of making any change whatsoever that increases the cost. If they reverted the cost but took away most or all of the mana, I'd be content with this item. (Sorry Ryze, your scaling concept is dumb in a LOL context.)

g07h4xf002 votes

[{quoted}](name=Count Buffon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n1KJiBUl,comment-id=00060002,timestamp=2015-08-05T12:18:07.514+0000)

On second thought, it takes 850 bonus health outside of Cinderhulk itself to break even with the +100 health intended to offset the scaling buff. Old: (850+300)*1.25 = 1437.5 New: (850+400)*1.15 = 1437.5.

850 bonus health is less than Warmog's + masteries at mid-game. Any bonus health beyond that (before Cinderhulk) is lost at a 10% rate (after Cinderhulk). So if you go Warmog's+Randuin's, your Randuin's loses 40HP. But you're actually losing 130HP because Randuin's got nerfed too (lose another 100 HP, but un-lose 10% of that 100 from Cinderhulk scaling). Randuin's costs 150 less, but Warmog's costs 250 more, so no gain there either - you pay 100 gold to lose 130HP.

Anyway, Cinderhulk on its own is somewhat secondary as far as nerfs go, and you can actually have a better mid-game than before if you're not Sejuani or Volibear. And... yeah, those haven't been played as much lately.

On Sejuani, I might have a core build like this: item 3709 item 3083 item 3143 item 3065 item 3020 By late-game, health has been nickeled and dimed down by more than 130+40 (spirit visage). Probably 200ish.

So with a full build on a health tank, the health nerf to Randuin's strikes a second time through the Cinderhulk nerf. This of course stacks with other nickel-and-dime nerfs on armor/MR/passives. Tanks who focus more on resists are somewhat less screwed by the Cinderhulk nerf than this.

(Also, wow... I didn't notice the patch when they nerfed Cinderhulk so that IT NEVER RAMPS UP TO DOING AS MUCH DAMAGE AS SUNFIRE EVER. It's 60% as much damage, period. Screw you, hahaha, you wanted Sunfire to be core on Sejuani before, but now Cinderhulk is core, but it does 40% less damage, trololol. I'd buy something else instead on Sej if they weren't all garbage and they didn't force jungler items on everyone by making them all OP-but-jungler-DRM-locked...)

Some remarks on the others:

item 3075 Thornmail is probably the most severe nerf after Randuin's.

item 3143 The big problem with Randuin's is... whoops, -10% crit damage does absolutely nothing in the BORK meta. Maybe Jinx/Sivir/Corki or something might build it because they need raw AD. Do we really want Randuin's to become trash against 50% or more of the ADCs in the meta just because the passive assumes S3 ADC builds? When the active is a nice and generally useful thing to have otherwise? AUGH.

item 3110 I just hate having to pay gold for mana. By the time you can afford this item, mana has become a junk stat. Who needs to buy 400 mana other than Blitzcrank and Singed? Muramana users and Ryze mostly? IMO this item needed to be super-efficient in gold because mana is a stupidly-designed resource in LOL, designed to become irrelevant 90% of the time by sometime near the end of the laning phase. And yeah, the really supporty nature of it as opposed to the selfish Thornmail also makes the case for keeping it the old way instead of making any change whatsoever that increases the cost. If they reverted the cost but took away most or all of the mana, I'd be content with this item. (Sorry Ryze, your scaling concept is dumb in a LOL context.)

Right. there will be a very small window of time in which the new Cinderhulk is better, but like 80% of the time it will be worse. Tanks will scale worse. Also focusing on defensive stats will be shittier after this patch becauses defense items are being nerfed to hell.

I main Singed and most games I don't even buy item 3110 because currently item 3075 + item 3143 is the best armor item combo in the game. After this patch it will likely have to change to item 3143 + item 3110 ... even then I'm skeptical.

Players (and Rito apparently) don't seem to remember a time when NOBODY built item 3110 . It was around Season 3 / early Season 4 when it gave like 90 armor and was pretty expensive (around 2800g) we are going back to those days with these changes. The old item 3110 gave 20% attack speed reduction and people almost never built it.

Also, what the fuck happened to item 3143's 10% movement speed slow?? Remember it used to have that, before nerfs last season??

Arcane Azmadi2 votes

Riot are apparently of the belief that Devourer is absolutely perfect and doesn't need any adjustments whatsoever.

Meanwhile, they have to do something to stop those damn tanks from tanking all the time and ruining the game for the poor, mistreated carries!

Count Buffon1 votes

One time I saw a Maokai take four auto-attacks from an ADC with three items. JUST FATHOM THAT FOR A SECOND.

g07h4xf001 votes

[{quoted}](name=Count Buffon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n1KJiBUl,comment-id=000600030000,timestamp=2015-08-06T01:38:17.163+0000)

One time I saw a Maokai take four auto-attacks from an ADC with three items. JUST FATHOM THAT FOR A SECOND.

... so you're saying he should have died after two autos???

Count Buffon4 votes

#lcsBIGPLAYZ

g07h4xf0032 votes

Nerfing tanks completely out of the meta before Worlds. What's the point. ADCs will always be in meta. Need tanks to be relevant since they make up such a large part of the champion pool and can deal with ADCs (since assassins are fucked too).

Ariel the Cruel5 votes

Welcome, to the league of Draven

KING OF MASKS25 votes

I swear to fucking God.

As someone who almost exclusively mains tanks this is just teeth-grindingly frustrating. God fucking damn it, Riot Games.

TheFancySkeleton4 votes

Naut and Amumu are my only junglers... :c

That I like playing.

g07h4xf003 votes

[{quoted}](name=KING OF MASKS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n1KJiBUl,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2015-08-05T05:49:57.205+0000)

I swear to fucking God.

As someone who almost exclusively mains tanks this is just teeth-grindingly frustrating. God fucking damn it, Riot Games.

Same. Like, ADCs will ALWAYS be in meta even if tanks are considered "strong" or if it's the "tank meta." These nerfs will COMPLETELY remove them from the meta aka undo all the work Rito has done this entire patch.

Count Buffon24 votes

How about Lee gets to keep his idiotic ultimate buff, but we scrap all the itemization changes? I know it's been almost a year since he's been in every single LCS game and that's horrible and all, but dear god. Happy Birthday, Insec.

I thought maybe Devourer needed tweaks and ADCs could use a little help being relevant early-to-mid game, but this is a ridiculous late-game buff to ADCs, who had no trouble out-scaling at 5-6 items anyway.

If you want to help the mid-game ADC, increase defensive item costs a little but leave the stats, scalings, and effects alone. A full build should actually do something.

g07h4xf0015 votes

[{quoted}](name=Count Buffon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n1KJiBUl,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-08-05T02:18:57.769+0000)

How about Lee gets to keep his idiotic ultimate buff, but we scrap all the itemization changes? I know it's been almost a year since he's been in every single LCS game and that's horrible and all, but dear god. Happy Birthday, Insec.

I thought maybe Devourer needed tweaks and ADCs could use a little help being relevant early-to-mid game, but this is a ridiculous late-game buff to ADCs, who had no trouble out-scaling at 5-6 items anyway.

If you want to help the mid-game ADC, increase defensive item costs a little but leave the stats, scalings, and effects alone. A full build should actually do something.

I'm totally fine with increasing the costs. But increasing the costs AND making the stats shittier? No fucking logic in that.

Enosetc19 votes

riot, idk if you've ever seen any of the OP's posts, but you oughta listen to what he's saying.

most of his statements are backed up with math and extensive testing and he's been right about a lot of the changes you've made in this game. a good example of this can be found in this post where he broke down exactly how strong runeglaive ezreal was when runeglaive went live with math and even silenced a few skeptics.

idk what you're using the PBE for if most of these changes go live after one PBE cycle. a lot of these changes are pre-season tier changes that could shake the very foundation of the game to its core. take notice.

LaughingStapler14 votes

Yes, these changes are asinine overall and Riot isn't as stupid as you guys think. They aren't doing this because it's smart or necessary game balancing. There is only one reason.

They want to force the competitive scene (THINK WORLDS) to play flashy play-making champions in virtually every game. Even though tanks contribute a lot to fights, offer strategic depth and can make great plays, there isn't the same element of risk as on Master Yi, Elise etc. They can just do whatever they like and fall-back soon after without worrying about dying.

This is Riot's way of forcing the meta into a different direction by making most tanks (even if still viable), unattractive. Bruisers will still be OK though. It's disappointing but we've seen it many times around World's. I don't trust that Riot actually cares about objective balance. No one was crying about tanks and armor for a while now.

g07h4xf0012 votes

Also, why does Rito hate 500-HP items? It seems like they are trying to cap most HP items at 400 for some strange fucking reason. Even though item 3068 still gives 450HP, item 3022 still exists giving 700HP, and they are releasing two new AD Bruiser items one of which gives 500HP. WTF!!

g07h4xf0012 votes

This patch is truly absurd even if you ignore the ridiculous changes in the AD Bruisers.

Toa of Death10 votes

So after bringing Tanks into the meta and allowing the game to be decently balanced they decided to completely gut the Tank role in general? WTF RIOT?!

Xonra4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toa of Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n1KJiBUl,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-08-05T04:40:38.973+0000)

So after bringing Tanks into the meta and allowing the game to be decently balanced they decided to completely gut the Tank role in general? WTF RIOT?!

All of this right here.

It isn't as if tanks have even been the top picks lately.

Nidalee Eve (who is getting nerfed) Gragas who is tanky than the above at least

We aren't seeing Sej every game now with a full tank build or whatever. You are seeing a good mix.

Guess what is going to happen now?

More Nidalee More Lee Sin every game again Likely Jarvan and Xin again

Just gonna go right back to who we had before Cinderhulk, since they keep nerfing armor, HP, AND cinderhulk, while giving options like devourer.

g07h4xf002 votes

{quoted}

All of this right here.

It isn't as if tanks have even been the top picks lately.

Nidalee Eve (who is getting nerfed) Gragas who is tanky than the above at least

We aren't seeing Sej every game now with a full tank build or whatever. You are seeing a good mix.

Guess what is going to happen now?

More Nidalee More Lee Sin every game again Likely Jarvan and Xin again

Just gonna go right back to who we had before Cinderhulk, since they keep nerfing armor, HP, AND cinderhulk, while giving options like devourer.

The top 3 junglers in this year's Worlds will be JarvanIV LeeSin and Elise watch.

g07h4xf009 votes

Also, 10 less armor and 100 less HP on item 3143 in exchange for 10% crit reduction is not worth it, actually. Only one champion on the enemy team crits and when they do, it's 55% of the time (tops).

So on average it's a 55%*10%*20% = 1.1% damage reduction. No more than 5% on average if you're really optimistic.

Caeler1 votes

That math doesn't look accurate. Where did that 20% came from? Anyways, these are the numbers I got.

I'm going to do a lot of math here using examples. If you want to skip to my points, I'll put them in big quote boxes.

Here's some numbers with current Randuin's:

Maokai, level 12 w/ Ninja Tabi, Randuin's, and Sunfire Cape has 208.1 armor and 2408 health assuming no runes or masteries. Maokai has 5035.128 effective HP. Note that I'm not including health regen in any of these calculations.

Caitlyn, level 12 w/ Berserker's, Infinity Edge, and Phantom Dancer has 160 AD, 55% crit, and 1.34 AS assuming no runes or masteries. After hitting Maokai, Cait's AS drops to 1.139 because of Randuin's passive.

Over 100 attacks 55 will be crits and 45 will be basic attacks. Ninja Tabi will reduce all attacks to 90% effectiveness.

160 x 55 x 2.5 x.9 = 19800 physical damage. 160 x 45 x.9= 6480 physical damage. 19800 + 6480 = 26280 physical damage. 100 attacks / 1.139 AS = 87.796 seconds to attack 100 times. 26280 physical damage / 87.796 seconds = 299.330 physical damage per second. 5035.128 effective HP / 299.330 physical DPS = 16.821 seconds to kill Maokai.

For comparison, let's do the math for new Randuin's.

Maokai now has 198.1 armor and 2308 health assuming no runes or masteries. Maokai now has 4595.228 effective HP.

Ninja Tabi reduces all attacks to 90% effectiveness and Randuin's reduces all crits to 90% effectiveness.

160 x 55 x 2.5 x .9 (Tabi) x .9 (Randuin's) = 17820 physical damage. 160 x 45 x .9 (Tabi) = 6480 physical damage. 17820 + 6480 = 24300 physical damage. Still 87.796 seconds to attack 100 times. 24300 physical damage / 87.796 seconds = 276.778 physical damage per second 4595.228 effective HP / 276.778 physical DPS = 16.603 seconds to kill Maokai.

Notice how the physical damage received changes from 26280 to 24300; a 7.534% decrease in physical damage received and therefore a 7.534% damage reduction. This is offset by the fact that Maokai lost about 440 effective HP. In the mid game, Maokai only dies about 1.296% faster.

Maokai, at level 9 w/ Ninja Tabi and Randuin's has 150.7 armor and 1679 HP assuming no runes or masteries. He has 2547.043 effective HP.

Caitlyn, at level 9 w/ Infinity Edge and Berserker's has 150 AD, 20% crit chance, and .95 AS assuming no runes or masteries. Cait's AS drops to .8075 because of Randuin's

Over 100 attacks 20 will be crits and 80 will be basic attacks.

150 x 20 x 2.5 x.9 = 6750 physical damage. 150 x 80 x.9 = 10800 physical damage. 10800 + 6750 = 17550 physical damage. 100 attacks / .8075 AS = 123.839 seconds. 17550 physical damage / 123.839 seconds = 141.716 physical DPS. 2547.043 effective HP / 141.716 physical DPS = 17.973 seconds to kill Maokai.

With new Randuin's:

Maokai will have 140.7 armor and 1579 HP. He will have 2237.443 effective HP.

150 x 20 x 2.5 x .9 x .9 = 6075 physical damage. 150 x 80 x .9 = 10800 physical damage. 10800 + 6075 = 16875 physical damage. Still 123.839 seconds for 100 attacks. 16875 physical damage / 123.839 seconds = 136.266 physical DPS. 2237.443 effective HP/ 136.266 physical DPS = 16.420 seconds to kill Maokai.

Notice how the physical damage received changes from 17550 to 16875; a meager 3.846% damage reduction. In return, Maokai lost about 310 effective HP. In the early game, Maokai dies 8.641% faster.

And lastly, for late game.

Maokai, at level 18 w/ Ninja Tabi, Randuin's, Sunfire, Spirit Visage, Locket, and Frozen Heart has 336.7 armor and 3852 health assuming no runes or masteries. Since Cait has Last Whisper, Maokai's effective armor is 218.855 and his effective HP is 8468.815

Caitlyn, at level 18 w/ Berserker's, Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Last Whisper, Bloodthirster, and Guardian Angel has 301 AD and 1.519 assuming no runes or masteries. When attacking Maokai, her AS drops to 1.097 due to Frozen Heart and Randuin's.

Over 100 attacks 55 will be crits and 45 will be basic attacks.

301 x 55 x 2.5 x .9 = 37248.75 physical damage. 301 x 45 x.9 = 12190.5 physical damage. 37248.75 + 12190.5 = 49439.25 physical damage. 100 attacks / 1.097 AS = 91.158 seconds to complete 100 attacks. 49439.25 physical damage / 91.158 seconds = 542.347 physical DPS. 8468.815 effective HP / 542.347 physical DPS = 15.615 seconds to kill Maokai.

With new Randuin's:

Maokai will have 326.7 armor and 3752 health assuming no runes or masteries. Since Cait has Last Whisper, Maokai's effective armor is 212.355 and his effective HP is 8005.080.

301 x 55 x 2.5 x .9 x .9 = 33523.875 physical damage. 301 x 45 x .9 = 12190.5 physical damage. 33523.875 + 12190.5 = 45714.375 physical damage. Still 91.158 seconds to complete 100 attacks. 45714.375 physical damage / 91.158 seconds = 501.485 physical DPS. 8005.080 effective HP / 501.485 physical DPS = 15.963 seconds to kill Maokai.

Notice how the physical damage changes from 49439.25 to 45714.375; a 7.534% damage reduction. In exchange, Maokai lost about 464 effective HP. In the late game, Maokai dies 2.23% slower.

I will acknowledge that these changes won't be the same for every champion and the numbers will vary. It also doesn't cover every single situation or build, but it should cover most standard tank builds fairly well. There's also the fact that the decrease in HP means mages and non auto attack reliant champions will be able to kill you quicker, though that may be offset by the MR itemization changes on the PBE (I didn't include any of those so these numbers aren't entirely accurate for the itemization changes). For Randuin's at least, the changes seem to result in a big early game nerf, a negligible to significant mid game nerf depending on your champion and build, and relatively no change late game. But yeah, your numbers look a little bit too low.

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

That math doesn't look accurate. Where did that 20% came from? Anyways, these are the numbers I got.

I'm going to do a lot of math here using examples. If you want to skip to my points, I'll put them in big quote boxes.

Here's some numbers with current Randuin's:

Maokai, level 12 w/ Ninja Tabi, Randuin's, and Sunfire Cape has 208.1 armor and 2408 health assuming no runes or masteries. Maokai has 5035.128 effective HP. Note that I'm not including health regen in any of these calculations.

Caitlyn, level 12 w/ Berserker's, Infinity Edge, and Phantom Dancer has 160 AD, 55% crit, and 1.34 AS assuming no runes or masteries. After hitting Maokai, Cait's AS drops to 1.139 because of Randuin's passive.

Over 100 attacks 55 will be crits and 45 will be basic attacks. Ninja Tabi will reduce all attacks to 90% effectiveness.

160 x 55 x 2.5 x.9 = 19800 physical damage. 160 x 45 x.9= 6480 physical damage. 19800 + 6480 = 26280 physical damage. 100 attacks / 1.139 AS = 87.796 seconds to attack 100 times. 26280 physical damage / 87.796 seconds = 299.330 physical damage per second. 5035.128 effective HP / 299.330 physical DPS = 16.821 seconds to kill Maokai.

For comparison, let's do the math for new Randuin's.

Maokai now has 198.1 armor and 2308 health assuming no runes or masteries. Maokai now has 4595.228 effective HP.

Ninja Tabi reduces all attacks to 90% effectiveness and Randuin's reduces all crits to 90% effectiveness.

160 x 55 x 2.5 x .9 (Tabi) x .9 (Randuin's) = 17820 physical damage. 160 x 45 x .9 (Tabi) = 6480 physical damage. 17820 + 6480 = 24300 physical damage. Still 87.796 seconds to attack 100 times. 24300 physical damage / 87.796 seconds = 276.778 physical damage per second 4595.228 effective HP / 276.778 physical DPS = 16.603 seconds to kill Maokai.

Maokai, at level 9 w/ Ninja Tabi and Randuin's has 150.7 armor and 1679 HP assuming no runes or masteries. He has 2547.043 effective HP.

Caitlyn, at level 9 w/ Infinity Edge and Berserker's has 150 AD, 20% crit chance, and .95 AS assuming no runes or masteries. Cait's AS drops to .8075 because of Randuin's

Over 100 attacks 20 will be crits and 80 will be basic attacks.

150 x 20 x 2.5 x.9 = 6750 physical damage. 150 x 80 x.9 = 10800 physical damage. 10800 + 6750 = 17550 physical damage. 100 attacks / .8075 AS = 123.839 seconds. 17550 physical damage / 123.839 seconds = 141.716 physical DPS. 2547.043 effective HP / 141.716 physical DPS = 17.973 seconds to kill Maokai.

With new Randuin's:

Maokai will have 140.7 armor and 1579 HP. He will have 2237.443 effective HP.

150 x 20 x 2.5 x .9 x .9 = 6075 physical damage. 150 x 80 x .9 = 10800 physical damage. 10800 + 6075 = 16875 physical damage. Still 123.839 seconds for 100 attacks. 16875 physical damage / 123.839 seconds = 136.266 physical DPS. 2237.443 effective HP/ 136.266 physical DPS = 16.420 seconds to kill Maokai.

And lastly, for late game.

Maokai, at level 18 w/ Ninja Tabi, Randuin's, Sunfire, Spirit Visage, Locket, and Frozen Heart has 336.7 armor and 3852 health assuming no runes or masteries. Since Cait has Last Whisper, Maokai's effective armor is 218.855 and his effective HP is 8468.815

Caitlyn, at level 18 w/ Berserker's, Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Last Whisper, Bloodthirster, and Guardian Angel has 301 AD and 1.519 assuming no runes or masteries. When attacking Maokai, her AS drops to 1.097 due to Frozen Heart and Randuin's.

Over 100 attacks 55 will be crits and 45 will be basic attacks.

301 x 55 x 2.5 x .9 = 37248.75 physical damage. 301 x 45 x.9 = 12190.5 physical damage. 37248.75 + 12190.5 = 49439.25 physical damage. 100 attacks / 1.097 AS = 91.158 seconds to complete 100 attacks. 49439.25 physical damage / 91.158 seconds = 542.347 physical DPS. 8468.815 effective HP / 542.347 physical DPS = 15.615 seconds to kill Maokai.

With new Randuin's:

Maokai will have 326.7 armor and 3752 health assuming no runes or masteries. Since Cait has Last Whisper, Maokai's effective armor is 212.355 and his effective HP is 8005.080.

301 x 55 x 2.5 x .9 x .9 = 33523.875 physical damage. 301 x 45 x .9 = 12190.5 physical damage. 33523.875 + 12190.5 = 45714.375 physical damage. Still 91.158 seconds to complete 100 attacks. 45714.375 physical damage / 91.158 seconds = 501.485 physical DPS. 8005.080 effective HP / 501.485 physical DPS = 15.963 seconds to kill Maokai.

I will acknowledge that these changes won't be the same for every champion and the numbers will vary. It also doesn't cover every single situation or build, but it should cover most standard tank builds fairly well. There's also the fact that the decrease in HP means mages and non auto attack reliant champions will be able to kill you quicker, though that may be offset by the MR itemization changes on the PBE (I didn't include any of those so these numbers aren't entirely accurate for the itemization changes). For Randuin's at least, the changes seem to result in a big early game nerf, a negligible to significant mid game nerf depending on your champion and build, and relatively no change late game. But yeah, your numbers look a little bit too low.

I didn't do a full calculation with multiple armor items, I only showed the change in item 3075.

A few things to note:

-that calculation would have shown WORSE numbers if you didn't build item 3047 because of the 10% reduction in auto-attack damage. In like 80% of games you can't afford to build this and basically HAVE to build item 3111 because it's the only tank item with tenacity which is an essential stat. -Maokai typically builds item 3110 and NOT item 3068 . In your calculation you used 3 armor items only 1 of which is getting nerfed in the 5.16 patch. If you re-did the calculation assuming the armor items were item 3075 + item 3110 + item 3143 you'll see a MUCH MORE significant difference in which the new build is objectively worse than the old one at all stages of the game. Also, against balanced team comps Maokai will only be able to get away with building 2 major armor items (not 3) because he will likely have to invest in MR items like item 3065 item 3102 item 3111 . -You also assumed that an enemy Caitlyn with 55% crit was your only opponent. What about an AD caster like Gnar or RekSai ? What about a non-crit / item 3153 ADC like Kalista , Vayne , Ezreal , or Corki ? 100 less HP on item 3143 also means you survive less against magic damage.

item 3143 is indeed better against champions who crit and auto attack a lot, but only in late game. What about if that ADC built item 3087 instead? You have to measure the overall changes to armor itemization as I've stated in my points above.

Caeler2 votes

{quoted}

I didn't do a full calculation with multiple armor items, I only showed the change in item 3075.

Still not sure what you mean. The calculation is clearly using Randuin's crit reduction. I don't see how Thornmail has anything to do with it. That calculation is wrong because it's setup wrong.

This is your equation: 55% x 10% x 20% = 1.1% damage reduction.

This is, at the very least, _closer _ to what it should be though it may still not be quite perfect.

2.5 AD (Inf Edge crit) x 90% (Randuin's passive) x 85% (Randuin's AS slow) = 1.9125. (2.5 - 1.9125)/2.5 = 23.5% dps reduction on crits.

1 AD (Basic attack) x 85% (Randuin's AS slow) = .85. (1 - .85) / 1 = 15% dps reduction on basic attacks.

So the new passive on Randuin's is giving an extra 8.5% dps reduction on crits. This does not tell us the effect on the total damage output because we don't know how much crit chance the enemy is going to have and therefore don't know how often the 23.5% damage reduction is going to be applied versus the 15% damage reduction, nor do we know what other factors may influence how much the passive actually affects the damage output.

A few things to note:

-that calculation would have shown WORSE numbers if you didn't build item 3047 because of the 10% reduction in auto-attack damage. In like 80% of games you can't afford to build this and basically HAVE to build item 3111 because it's the only tank item with tenacity which is an essential stat.

Okay so we swap Ninja Tabi for Mercury's Treads. Maokai loses 25 armor and the passive. Caitlyn's stats all remain the same.

Level 12 Maokai example now has 183.1 armor and 2408 HP for 4433.128 effective HP.

160 x 55 x 2.5 = 22000 physical damage. 160 x 45 = 7200 physical damage. 22000 + 7200 = 29200 physical damage. 100 attacks / 1.139 AS = 87.796 seconds to attack 100 times. 29200 physical damage / 87.796 seconds = 332.589 physical damage per second. 4433.128 effective HP / 332.589 physical DPS = 13.329 seconds to kill Maokai.

w/ new Randuin's

Level 12 Maokai example now has 173.1 armor 2308 HP for 4018.228 effective HP.

160 x 55 x 2.5 x .9 = 19800 physical damage. 160 x 45 = 7200 physical damage. 19800 + 7200 = 27000 physical damage. Still 87.796 seconds to attack 100 times. 27000 physical damage / 87.796 seconds = 307.531 physical damage per second 4018.228 effective HP / 307.531 physical DPS = 13.066 seconds to kill Maokai.

This is a 7.534% damage reduction; the exact same value that I calculated with Ninja Tabi. Maokai dies 1.973% faster with new Randuin's compared to old Randuin's.

Level 9 Maokai has 125.7 armor and 1679 HP for 2127.293 effective HP.

150 x 20 x 2.5 = 7500 physical damage. 150 x 80 = 12000 physical damage. 12000 + 7500 = 19500 physical damage. 100 attacks / .8075 AS = 123.839 seconds. 19500 physical damage / 123.839 seconds = 157.463 physical DPS. 2127.293 effective HP / 157.463 physical DPS = 13.510 seconds to kill Maokai.

w/ new Randuin's

Level 9 Maokai has 115.7 armor and 1579 HP for 1842.693 effective HP.

150 x 20 x 2.5 x .9 = 6750 physical damage. 150 x 80 = 12000 physical damage. 12000 + 6750 = 18750 physical damage. Still 123.839 seconds for 100 attacks. 18750 physical damage / 123.839 seconds = 151.406 physical DPS. 1842.693 effective HP/ 151.406 physical DPS = 12.171 seconds to kill Maokai.

This is a 3.846% damage reduction; the exact same value that I calculated with Ninja Tabi. Maokai dies 9.911% faster with new Randuin's compared to old Randuin's.

Level 18 Maokai has 311.7 armor and 3852 health. After armor penetration Maokai has 202.605 armor, which gives him 7842.865 effective HP.

301 x 55 x 2.5 = 41387.5 physical damage. 301 x 45 = 13545 physical damage. 41387.5 + 13545 = 54932.5 physical damage. 100 attacks / 1.097 AS = 91.158 seconds to complete 100 attacks. 54932.5 physical damage / 91.158 seconds = 602.608 physical DPS. 7842.865 effective HP / 602.608 physical DPS = 13.015 seconds to kill Maokai.

w/ new Randuin's

Level 18 Maokai has 301.7 armor and 3752 health. After armor penetration Maokai has 196.105 armor and 7395.380 effective HP.

301 x 55 x 2.5 x.9 = 37248.75 physical damage. 301 x 45 = 13545 physical damage. 37248.75 + 13545 = 50793.75 physical damage. 100 attacks / 1.097 AS = 91.158 seconds to complete 100 attacks. 50793.75 physical damage / 91.158 seconds = 557.206 physical DPS. 7395.380 effective HP / 557.206 physical DPS = 13.272 seconds to kill Maokai.

This is a 7.534% damage reduction; again the exact same value that I calculated with Ninja Tabi. Maokai dies 1.975% faster with new Randuin's than with old Randuin's.

In conclusion, having Tabi does not affect the damage reduction the new Randuin's will give. You will, however, die faster in comparison because you don't have the extra armor or passive that Tabi provides.

-Maokai typically builds item 3110 and NOT item 3068 . In your calculation you used 3 armor items only 1 of which is getting nerfed in the 5.16 patch. If you re-did the calculation assuming the armor items were item 3075 + item 3110 + item 3143 you'll see a MUCH MORE significant difference in which the new build is objectively worse than the old one at all stages of the game.

I used Sunfire because I didn't remember if the new Thornmail lost any stats or not and didn't want to look it up. I briefly skimmed through the OP because I had already seen the changes. The new Thornmail isn't losing any armor however so I don't see what your point here is. There is nothing for me to compare except the passive, which is completely different from how effective a tank you'll be. As for the current examples, I don't want to go through all the math again calculating all the new values just because someone builds Thornmail instead of Sunfire.

Also, against balanced team comps Maokai will only be able to get away with building 2 major armor items (not 3) because he will likely have to invest in MR items like item 3065 item 3102 item 3111.

Magic damage usually comes in the form of burst whereas physical damage usually comes in the form of constant damage (auto attacks). Buying 3 MR items and only 2 armor items is better in my opinion because the ADC is going to be attacking you the entire time but the mage is going to use their combo and then be done for the most part. I wouldn't build more than two MR items as a tank unless the enemy team is AP heavy or their AP is fed. As a side note, 3 MR items and 2 armor items only adds up to 5 items if you've built Tabi or Mercury's Treads. That 6th item could be a 3rd armor item if you aren't going to build any damage (pure tank).

-You also assumed that an enemy Caitlyn with 55% crit was your only opponent. What about an AD caster like Gnar or RekSai ? What about a non-crit / item 3153 ADC like Kalista , Vayne , Ezreal , or Corki ? 100 less HP on item 3143 also means you survive less against magic damage.

It would be too much trouble to actually do the math on this since those kinds of champions rely on skills more than auto attacks which means I would also have to take cooldown into consideration along with any auto attacks in between skill. Trying to calculate for multiple damage outputs would have just made my post much longer anyways.

item 3143 is indeed better against champions who crit and auto attack a lot, but only in late game. What about if that ADC built item 3087 instead? You have to measure the overall changes to armor itemization as I've stated in my points above.

Just based on the numbers, it would be weaker if they didn't have as much crit since the new passive only affects crits. Don't get me wrong, this is without a doubt a nerf to Randuin's, and I'm not trying to argue that it isn't. It's just that the numbers you're giving for the damage reduction on new Randuin's seem off. The new Randuin's is weaker because too much effective HP is being lost.

AtheosisX7 votes

What really doesn't make sense to me is this:

Is AP damage currently overbearing right now? No.

Is AD damage currently underperforming against tanks? No.

Are tank junglers dominating in the jungle versus the competition? No.

So what the fuck is the point of all these radical changes? It certainly doesn't seem to be for the sake of balance...

manbearswine4 votes

{quoted}

What really doesn't make sense to me is this:

Is AP damage currently overbearing right now? No.

Is AD damage currently underperforming against tanks? No.

Are tank junglers dominating in the jungle versus the competition? No.

So what the fuck is the point of all these radical changes? It certainly doesn't seem to be for the sake of balance...

World's is coming up,they need assassins to be 100% of mid laners again.

SaltyToplaneGoat6 votes

Now that's what I call a good analysis. Here, have my upvote.

YOLO420SWAGSCOPE5 votes

Gotta get ready for worlds amirite? LOL

seriously these nerfs are insanely unbalanced not enough thought was put into this patch

Beldori4 votes

Riot is on some really off the wall drugs this go round, granted they want their big money play makers ready for LCS with these changes but this patch may just make a lot of players walk away from league at least for a while till things improve or never come back. Between the item changes and the terrible reworks on the pbe it makes me not want to play anymore. The state of the game is going back to season 3 season 4 type stuff and we all know how that was.

Dreadlocks4 votes

Man.. You really put things into perspective. To mean season 5 has evolved to be a very balanced and unique season. Every type of jungler is viable. Tanks are strong but not overbearing.. ADCs pack a punch but arnt pentakilling and bruisers arn't tanks with assassin like damage. I read 90% of this post and can honestly say. It seems like riot is quickly trying to change their game to have a season 4 worlds all over again. On top of these item changes, they are buffing Lee Sin. Now i love lee sin.. he was/is one of, if not my favorite champion in the game. But holy shit they are legit buffing him RIGHT BEFORE WORLDS WHAT THE ACTUAL F*CK??? Can they really not sleep at night knowing that other junglers can be picked at Worlds? Lets buff Lee Sin for worlds guys.. Wouldn't wana see Shyvana jungle or Sejuani, that would make for a boring Worlds.

But jesus dude, you really do make all this shit clear.. Amen, take my upvote, if I could, I would up-vote you 100x over. Riot really dropping the ball if they go through with these changes. =[

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

Man.. You really put things into perspective. To mean season 5 has evolved to be a very balanced and unique season. Every type of jungler is viable. Tanks are strong but not overbearing.. ADCs pack a punch but arnt pentakilling and bruisers arn't tanks with assassin like damage. I read 90% of this post and can honestly say. It seems like riot is quickly trying to change their game to have a season 4 worlds all over again. On top of these item changes, they are buffing Lee Sin. Now i love lee sin.. he was/is one of, if not my favorite champion in the game. But holy shit they are legit buffing him RIGHT BEFORE WORLDS WHAT THE ACTUAL F*CK??? Can they really not sleep at night knowing that other junglers can be picked at Worlds? Lets buff Lee Sin for worlds guys.. Wouldn't wana see Shyvana jungle or Sejuani, that would make for a boring Worlds.

But jesus dude, you really do make all this shit clear.. Amen, take my upvote, if I could, I would up-vote you 100x over. Riot really dropping the ball if they go through with these changes. =[

It wouldn't be so sad if this never happened before. It's happened so many times in the past. Over and over they go through this cycle of "these group of champions are now viable..... aaaaaand actually they're not forget about that." It's like fucking Groundhog's Day I've seen this exact same mistake so many times in the past it's ridiculous that Rito keeps repeating it over and over.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Like i said, your post was VERY well written, and before reading this it didn't seem "too bad" but now... man this just makes me angry.

AccountaBilabudy3 votes

good post

GundayMonday3 votes

Great analysis on what's wrong. Not a fan of any of this, and I don't understand what Riot's doing.

Sejuani is a great example. item 3717 was WAY too strong as an item on release, but instead of nerfing the item, they nerfed Sejuani . Now they're nerfing item 3717 with no compensation for the tank junglers who cannot be played without the pre-nerf version of the item due to the other nerfs. Then add into the fact that Riot has now nerfed every other defensive item, and you enter a meta where there are no tanks.

I see no reason to play about 5 of my favorite champions now. Even champs like Trundle are getting shafted since their tank killer status makes them useless in a world without tanks.

On the plus side, every assassin main probably has a huge grin smeared across their faces since they can now do whatever they want without any counter play.

No clue why these changes are even being considered. Will probably make me stop playing the game for a few patches until they're reverted.

Decrit2 votes

... I am the only one that does think that the whole comment section and post is reading the changes wrong, and while i agree the armor items got slightly, and i say slightly nerfed, the Mr items got a consistent buff? And that cinderhulk got actually a buff?

g07h4xf003 votes

{quoted}

... I am the only one that does think that the whole comment section and post is reading the changes wrong, and while i agree the armor items got slightly, and i say slightly nerfed, the Mr items got a consistent buff? And that cinderhulk got actually a buff?

You must not have read any of my post if you think these were "slight nerfs." I told you why the MR items were insignificant (nerfing item 3105 by more than you buff item 3065 is a net nerf). I gave very good explanations as to why these are big nerfs. The proposed change to Cinderhulk is absolutely a nerf this is indisputable.

Chuck Charles2 votes

I may be in the minority but this post feels extremely whiny. Tanks feel incredibly tanky currently. When cinderhulk was released it dominated the meta and tanks right now with just two armor items can shut down an adc entirely. Hell Randuins in its current state will make an ADCs life very hard in the mid game. Tanks are supposed to feel tanky, but not unkillable. IMO, sustained DPS damage dealers should be able to shred through a tank faster than maybe in their current state. ADCs especially. I mean if you build full damage and are nothing but DPS and you can't make a dent in a tank there is a problem. I will never forget the horror of being an 8/0 adc and having the sejuani's and gragas run at me as I'm helpless because armor is simply too easy to come by. I do feel MR could use some more buffs, but if you do stack it, unless you are Cassio, Azir, Orianna, or anyoe with short cds and sustained dps...you are not going to do shit to a tank. Hell, its honestly not really even your main job. If you have to hit the tanks yes. but if you are the APC its generally your job to try to get your bulk of damage on the backline. TLDR, I think tanks should feel tanky but not unkillable which is what I feel this post wants.

g07h4xf003 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chuck Charles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n1KJiBUl,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2015-08-05T10:45:13.295+0000)

I may be in the minority but this post feels extremely whiny. Tanks feel incredibly tanky currently. When cinderhulk was released it dominated the meta and tanks right now with just two armor items can shut down an adc entirely. Hell Randuins in its current state will make an ADCs life very hard in the mid game. Tanks are supposed to feel tanky, but not unkillable. IMO, sustained DPS damage dealers should be able to shred through a tank faster than maybe in their current state. ADCs especially. I mean if you build full damage and are nothing but DPS and you can't make a dent in a tank there is a problem. I will never forget the horror of being an 8/0 adc and having the sejuani's and gragas run at me as I'm helpless because armor is simply too easy to come by. I do feel MR could use some more buffs, but if you do stack it, unless you are Cassio, Azir, Orianna, or anyoe with short cds and sustained dps...you are not going to do shit to a tank. Hell, its honestly not really even your main job. If you have to hit the tanks yes. but if you are the APC its generally your job to try to get your bulk of damage on the backline. TLDR, I think tanks should feel tanky but not unkillable which is what I feel this post wants.

I agree that when the Cinderhulk patch first came out, tanks were too strong. Several nerfs later, they fell out of season and no longer do you see comps with 3-4 tanks anymore. Now you see 1 maybe 2 tops. This is okay. Tank junglers are currently still viable but not overwhelming. Some nerfs were rightfully called for. All I'm saying is that these next round of nerfs will be going TOO FAR and Riot has made this EXACT SAME mistake in the past. Remember last year before Worlds? ADCs were the dominant force by the time we hit Worlds and the only tanks that could really do anything were Maokai and Alistar but only because their kits have a lot of % damage reduction and other natural tankyness. The items themselves were so bad that no other tanks were really viable.

WooBeeWoo1 votes

The patch post you linked started with "tank items are functional right now but not good" then it basically moves into "so we nerfed them to make them shitty" Fuck Riot fuck this game. I'm so done. Like I love tanking but everytime a decent meta presents itself for my playstyle they do crazy shit to make the game horrible for me. I remember when in one patch they nerfed armor AND buffed ADCs like.... why the fuck wouldn't you do one of those first then see how it goes and apply the other one when neccassary (which one change wouldve been plenty). I don't understand how the balance team thinks. They are so stupid.

g07h4xf003 votes

{quoted}

The patch post you linked started with "tank items are functional right now but not good" then it basically moves into "so we nerfed them to make them shitty" Fuck Riot fuck this game. I'm so done. Like I love tanking but everytime a decent meta presents itself for my playstyle they do crazy shit to make the game horrible for me. I remember when in one patch they nerfed armor AND buffed ADCs like.... why the fuck wouldn't you do one of those first then see how it goes and apply the other one when neccassary (which one change wouldve been plenty). I don't understand how the balance team thinks. They are so stupid.

Yes, it was last year before worlds and one of the worst patches in the entire game. Rito's balance philosophy usually involves "nerf something + buff something else" when it should be one or the other, never both.

Byakuya Kuchiki1 votes

maybe because almost all tanks are brainless and take no skill so they shouldnt be allowed to be the strongest champs int he game? its also extremely boring to watch ask any pro they will say adcs are currently the worst role to be and that tanks and fighters are becoming stronger and stronger

g07h4xf003 votes

{quoted}

maybe because almost all tanks are brainless and take no skill so they shouldnt be allowed to be the strongest champs int he game? its also extremely boring to watch ask any pro they will say adcs are currently the worst role to be and that tanks and fighters are becoming stronger and stronger

Lmao the core mechanic of an ADC champion is "right click" and you're saying tanks are brainless? Assassins are actually the weakest right now, not ADCs. How do I know this? Because I see ADCs EVERY FUCKING GAME and almost NEVER see assassins. GG your argument.

You want to talk brainless? Fighters/bruisers are more brainless than tanks because they literally encompass the "ball of stats" approach of game balancing. Take champions like Shyvana Darius they have insanely high base stats and their kits are built in a way where their gameplay is basically "run directly at the enemy backline and either they die or you die" there is no real counterplay potential. They either get there and kill them or they don't. It's very hard to play from behind and can be feast or famine most of the time. Tanks can get behind, but at least they have CC and tankyness (damage isn't their strong suit) so they can still be useful for their team.

Wolf Queen1 votes

Sej, grag and amumu arent perma picked anyways. Like what elo are you in? They are countered so easily ever since cinderhulk nerf

g07h4xf007 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blood Wolf0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n1KJiBUl,comment-id=003d,timestamp=2015-08-05T18:41:36.469+0000)

Sej, grag and amumu arent perma picked anyways. Like what elo are you in? They are countered so easily ever since cinderhulk nerf

Exactly. They currently aren't running the show / being perma picked/banned and yet all their core items are getting nerfed. That is exactly my point.

Creeamy Sheev1 votes

Well, as Shaco main I can't stop smiling when looking at these changes. Shaco

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