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Riot Took People's Feedback, And Did The Opposite

Kivolan··216 votes·7,146 views

I know it's preseason. I know there's a lot of people defending things as "they'll get better", "they'll get fixed", "they're just experimenting"... But I think a lot of the anger right now comes from the fact that Riot seems to take people's feedback for the game, and do the complete opposite.

Major themes that people have been complaining about this last season that are now even worse:

1. Turrets don't do enough damage and die too quickly. Riot's Response: Add in a rune (one that's not even a keystone) that lets a full tank also be an efficient split pusher. I just did 923 damage to a turret with one auto attack as Sion... In ARAM, with only three full items.

2. ADCs are scaling far too early in the game. Riot's Response: Let ADCs choose between even more early game safety and early scaling with Inspiration, or let them snowball completely out of control with one or two kills with the Precision tree.

3. Tanks do too much damage without building any damage items. Riot's Response: Tanks now have an entire tree and skills that make them even tankier, as well as offer them additional damage based on their tankiness. While we're at it, let's also give a hard nerf to AP champions with the removal of any sort of Magic Penetration from Runes and Masteries without nerfing Magic Resist on anything.

4. Games snowball too easily. Riot's Response: There's now all sorts of runes that give permanent stats for Takedowns.

5. Everything does too much damage. Riot's Response: New runes that add more damage for every sort of game: ones that end at fifteen minutes, or ones that end at fifty!

6. Mobility rules the game. Riot's Response: We're adding in additional runes that offer more mobility, as well as permanent movement speed on Takedowns. Additionally, every champion that has been reworked or released recently has at least one dash, if not more. Well, with the exception of Xayah.

I'm trying really hard to experiment with the new Runes right now, but I'm honestly just not having fun. Games last season felt like they were decided early, let alone this season. I'm hopeful that things can be worked out to a somewhat balanced state but with how things have been going recently (and the examples given above), I'm becoming more and more skeptical. I can hope and wish for the old Runes / Masteries back as much as I like. We know it's not happening. I'm just going to try and log on to do my daily EXP mission (which was the one good thing that came out of this, in my opinion) and hope that the smoke will clear eventually.

140 Comments

Jkrexx41 votes

I definitely relate to the frustration about the turrets and the mobility creep.

The turrets have been a problem for a long time now, the last straw for me was removing the laser beam on the turrets inside your base which at least offered the protection of a decent DOT laserbeam, which ramped up significantly more than the current shots do, as well as a decent move speed slow. This punished people who went out of position that were greedy for a kill. The fact Ziggs can push a turret in about 5 seconds with a item 3100 , his passive and his W in the mid game is really saddening. I could accept him being a dedicated turret pusher if he was the only one who could do this, but quite frankly nearly every champ can push turrets ridiculously quick these days, especially when auto attack buffs are slowly all being allowed to effect turrets (Cait headshot, Vayne Q, Yorick Q etc.)

The mobility creep is getting out of control. It's almost as if all walls should just be deleted from the map because most of the recent roster ignores them anyway. Immobile mages are getting worst effected by this and I'm a bit biased on this subject, being a Vel'Koz main, but having my movement speed quints ripped from me in this pre-season with no base MS buffs is really saddening. I end up spamming spells from under my origami turret shooting spit balls at the enemy kayn/zac/sej/lee/vi/shaco/jarvan/khazix (the list goes on...) who have just dashed over the wall next to me and proceeded to delete me along with the enemy midlaner. Unfortunately we're not able to buy green wards anymore otherwise I'd spend my whole balance on them trying to protect myself from every angle.

I'm not gonna stop playing this game, not at least in the near future, but what I used to like about the game is slowly disappearing for a faster paced, sub par experience which leaves me unsatisfied even after winning.

Kivolan2 votes

{quoted}

I definitely relate to the frustration about the turrets and the mobility creep.

The turrets have been a problem for a long time now, the last straw for me was removing the laser beam on the turrets inside your base which at least offered the protection of a decent DOT laserbeam, which ramped up significantly more than the current shots do, as well as a decent move speed slow. This punished people who went out of position that were greedy for a kill. The fact Ziggs can push a turret in about 5 seconds with a item 3100 , his passive and his W in the mid game is really saddening. I could accept him being a dedicated turret pusher if he was the only one who could do this, but quite frankly nearly every champ can push turrets ridiculously quick these days, especially when auto attack buffs are slowly all being allowed to effect turrets (Cait headshot, Vayne Q, Yorick Q etc.)

The mobility creep is getting out of control. It's almost as if all walls should just be deleted from the map because most of the recent roster ignores them anyway. Immobile mages are getting worst effected by this and I'm a bit biased on this subject, being a Vel'Koz main, but having my movement speed quints ripped from me in this pre-season with no base MS buffs is really saddening. I end up spamming spells from under my origami turret shooting spit balls at the enemy kayn/zac/sej/lee/vi/shaco/jarvan/khazix (the list goes on...) who have just dashed over the wall next to me and proceeded to delete me along with the enemy midlaner. Unfortunately we're not able to buy green wards anymore otherwise I'd spend my whole balance on them trying to protect myself from every angle.

I'm not gonna stop playing this game, not at least in the near future, but what I used to like about the game is slowly disappearing for a faster paced, sub par experience which leaves me unsatisfied even after winning.

I main Vel as well. His win rate somehow went up this patch, at least statistically speaking, but I can't figure out why. I'm at a 10% win rate or something so far this season. I feel like I'm slow as shit and do absolutely zero damage early in the game, so I have no way of snowballing.

Awhegark10 votes

Very long range mages like vel koz are actually strong right now since they can do more damage than before, without having to worry about being hit by those ad beasts.

Kiraid Lciem1 votes

Are people taking a slowing rune that makes it imposible to get out from under your ult?

Kivolan2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kiraid Lciem,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sqgj8tFE,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2017-11-12T01:10:45.183+0000)

Are people taking a slowing rune that makes it imposible to get out from under your ult?

Huh? I don't know what this is in response to.

SturmPioniere11 votes

The celerity rune gives you 4% move speed by itself and some bonus ap, though? I realize that's not the 4.5% from quints but it's a base rune. You could always opt into the +10ms from the magical boots too if you can put off getting them until likely after your first back.

There are other problems for sure but this one seems really dubious.

Jkrexx2 votes

Clerity is nonexistent to me. Transcendence is way more valuable IMO and Absolute Focus is a close second. If I could replace something else on the tree with Clerity I'd try and fit it in, but currently the other two are more important so I'm left without the option.

Xonra10 votes

"but what I used to like about the game is slowly disappearing" This is 100% my sentiment. I don't HATE the current game, but what I loved about it is changing drastically every season.

  • The skill expression and calculation in the jungle has turned into "who can clear fast and then gank early to abuse the systems implemented".

  • Supporting is now "who can abuse the strongest items (or runes in this preseason's case) while poking early".

  • Tanks are just better bruisers in 2017 being more...well tanky, still somehow do damage, and whichever has tons of CC (even though that is why Naut was gimped) reign the Rift.

  • Mages just got a middle finger with the runes reforged, especially immobile ones that aren't Syndra levels of burst.

  • Some champs have flat out no place currently, like my main Morg, who is just flat bad in mid now with the new runes as she isn't a dot mage, burst mage, AND immobile, and she can't abuse the new stuff enough to be picked over anyone as a support.

  • There is no smart stalling, just dumb enemy team throwing. the game is all about snowball and seeing who can end fastest.

  • Turrets are just gold there for you to protect, and tower diving isn't even a tactical decision anymore as much as "do we have a minion wave and 2 people at level 3?"

I don't want to stop playing, but I'm not enjoying what the game is turning into more and more, as what I loved about the game keeps going in the opposite direction. It's frustrating, and Riot doesn't care because they have their own vision, which is more and more just "esports" (faster snobally games means more games on screen and more "action").

DeusVult1 votes

As far as Ziggs goes, his entire niche is taking towers. Not seiging, its specifically taking towers. And a ziggs in the mid game with Lich Bane isnt a threat to pretty much anything except a tower, because he doesnt have the AP for champ damage.

Kivolan2 votes

{quoted}

As far as Ziggs goes, his entire niche is taking towers. Not seiging, its specifically taking towers. And a ziggs in the mid game with Lich Bane isnt a threat to pretty much anything except a tower, because he doesnt have the AP for champ damage.

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2644392455/51443151?tab=overview

My last match seems to disagree with you. He seems to have done just fine for being 1/4 at 20:00 minutes in because if I left lane for more than two seconds I'd lose my tower, while he could walk halfway down the river, bomb bot lane for two assists and then walk back up to clear the next wave.

Ziggs is one of the BEST champions for sieging. He has a disengage with his W, his slow on E and one of the longest range pokes in the game with Q.

He's doing just fine, I think, though his ability to blow up a turret in two seconds is annoying as frig.

LankPants31 votes

Riot's Response: Tanks now have an entire tree and skills that make them even tankier, as well as offer them additional damage based on their tankiness. While we're at it, let's also give a hard nerf to AP champions with the removal of any sort of Magic Penetration from Runes and Masteries without nerfing Magic Resist on anything.

The new Resolve tree offers far less durability than the old combination of Masteries+Runes. Just do a quick 1:1 comparison, Conditioning is kinda like running about 2-3 scaling Armour Quints and 6-7 scaling MR blues, Overgrowth is like running 9 scaling HP yellows except it curves out slower. Then you can knock off 50 of the HP from the 130 with a direct comparison to the mastery tree, about 30 due to Overgrowth scaling far slower than HP/lv yellows.

Let's do a recap of where we are so far, we've used most of our runes and one mastery, we'll assume keystones are roughly one to one, they grew in power but only did so at an equal rate to other classes so I think we can just cancel these. From the old system we still have 3 blue rune slots and 4 masteries, all that's left in the new system is ~50hp. Let's at this point see how much gold we can squeeze out of the old system for a direct comparison, not unique effects, just gold.

Legendary Guardian (t5) gave 3 armour/MR per nearby enemy, 15 armour/MR is worth 495. Recovery (t1) granted 2 HP/5, worth 72 gold. Explorer (t2) granted 15 flat MS worth 180 gold. We'll ignore t4 because it's hard to put a single gold value on the effects, what we'll do instead is assume that since this was a very powerful tier with 2 of the strongest masteries in the game they about cancel out t1 Resolve (I'd argue they were better). From our 3 blue runes we get 4 flat MR worth 72 gold. We can subtract off the 50 HP's 133 gold value to find that the old mastery+rune system granted about 701 gold more than the new system.

This is a jank arse way to compare and there's certainly flaws, for example Legendary Guardian probably isn't giving its full gold value at all times. I did what I consider to be an overestimation on Condition's strength to offset this somewhat, realistically it's probably 2 quints and 6 blues but I estimated it at 3 and 7. Even still if you completely ignore that mastery the old system comes out 206 gold ahead. Since there's no other place for tanks to realistically get durability (there's Celestial Body but that rune's abysmal) you can pretty much mathematically conclude that tanks have lost a significant amount of durability.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

"We'll assume the keystones are roughly one to one"

Uh, no. Courage of the Colossus scaled off health, Aftershock scales off resistances. After the tank update, tanks build a lot more resistances than health. Aftershock likely offers far more durability than CotC with a standard tank build, but if you would like to prove it doesn't then you need to do the actual math the same way you've been doing it with everything else.

LankPants5 votes

then you need to do the actual math the same way you've been doing it with everything else.

You can't really do math on Aftershock VS Courage, if you have tons of HP and no resists Courage is always going to be better and vies versa. To do math on something like this you really need set numbers, I can put an approximate gold value on Conditioning or an exact gold value on HP/lv Quints because they don't vary drastically.

tanks build a lot more resistances than health.

That's bullshit. Common builds for jungle obviously include a lot of HP with Cinderhulk, Cho and Shen are still two of the best tops and still have high HP values because of their R and Shen's propensity for rushing Titanic and even top tanks like Maokai have a tendency to rush items like Righteous Glory and Adaptive Helm. Tanks in general build a hell of a lot more HP than resists.

"We'll assume the keystones are roughly one to one"

As I mentioned in the very next line, they did on average grow in power, but so did every other classes runes except Fervour>PtA for many Bruisers. You having more resists doesn't really matter if the enemy does more damage with Aery spam or PtA, or god forbid are Tempo Kog.

Scary Door15 votes

1. Turrets don't do enough damage and die too quickly. Riot's Response: Add in a rune (one that's not even a keystone) that lets a full tank also be an efficient split pusher. I just did 923 damage to a turret with one auto attack as Sion... In ARAM, with only three full items.

It is remarkable how ineffective turrets are now. I have yet to play a single game that's gone beyond 28 minutes since patch 7.22. Laning phase is over faster than ever. I miss the days when laning phase was the first 15+ minutes of the game, now you're lucky if it goes past 7-8 minutes.

2. ADCs are scaling far too early in the game. Riot's Response: Let ADCs choose between even more early game safety and early scaling with Inspiration, or let them snowball completely out of control with one or two kills with the Precision tree.

I would say MOST ADCs are this way, but Kalista is still a plate of hot garbage and I guess that's the way Riot wants her to stay.

3. Tanks do too much damage without building any damage items. Riot's Response: Tanks now have an entire tree and skills that make them even tankier, as well as offer them additional damage based on their tankiness. While we're at it, let's also give a hard nerf to AP champions with the removal of any sort of Magic Penetration from Runes and Masteries without nerfing Magic Resist on anything.

This game isn't about damage mitigation anymore and tanking feels awful, so if you're a tank, might as well build offensive items and join in on the new meta of 2 second fights.

4. Games snowball too easily. Riot's Response: There's now all sorts of runes that give permanent stats for Takedowns.

Yep. This has been the trend for 3+ seasons now. I went through my match history across my accounts and can't find a game in the last two seasons that's gone beyond 40 minutes outside of customs.

5. Everything does too much damage. Riot's Response: New runes that add more damage for every sort of game: ones that end at fifteen minutes, or ones that end at fifty!

Most everything, yes. Mages seem to have been left out in the cold because any magic resist items now make mages completely ineffective.

6. Mobility rules the game. Riot's Response: We're adding in additional runes that offer more mobility, as well as permanent movement speed on Takedowns. Additionally, every champion that has been reworked or released recently has at least one dash, if not more. Well, with the exception of Xayah.

Completely true... this isn't a new thing though, but mobility is "flashy" and "flashy" means even more LC$BigPlay$!!!

Xonra6 votes

"I have yet to play a single game that's gone beyond 28 minutes since patch 7.22"

I'm literally playing ARAM games longer than some SR games. Easier to stall with just one lane than it is against all the snowball on SR.

Bronze 6 Yasuo12 votes

This is new?

Kivolan18 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bronze 6 Yasuo,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sqgj8tFE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-11-11T23:42:31.229+0000)

This is new?

Certainly not, lol.

Just even more prevalent with this major update. I recall last year's preseason being a pretty big disaster as well, just not on this scale.

DragonShea11 votes

Riot needs to stop smoking crack cocaine and do their fucking job right.

Tomoe Gozen5 votes

Uh, it's the preseason. They have more patches to balance things in after they gather the data on what needs to be adjusted/changed. New runes certainly didn't ship in perfect condition and it was never possible to do so. Now that Riot can see the interactions and trends in rune pages, it's a massive insight into how people use them which means they can accurately see who's doing what and what's lacking in the entire system.

I honestly don't like your tone. Riot IS DOING THEIR JOB, except it looks like to me that you expect of them to be done changing everything by tomorrow. That would be the same as me expecting you to hit Challenger by tomorrow. And if you can't do that, don't hold other people to higher standards that are impossible to fulfil.

Sraeg20134 votes

TL;DR It's the preseason and you have no right to complain.

raptillicus8 votes

People have the right to complain, but there is a difference between "this is broken and needs to be fixed" and a complete condemnation of every riot employee as useless, talentless, worthless meatsacks with no redeeming value who are just out to screw you over and siphon all your c4$h mon1ez.

Sraeg20133 votes

Because this is the first time they made a "mistake".

People complain about the overabundance of damage since Keystones were added? Remove resistances in runes and make every rune a keystone.

People complain about runes being too expensive? Remove old runes, nerf IP(BE) and OE gains, make boosts more expensive.

chipndip11 votes

But they outright removed a cash sink, though. In the long run (like really long run), this should be a gain for a lot of players...just not EVERY player (RiP me).

Sraeg20133 votes

What players?

Games this old can at BEST keep their current numbers.

And you certainly won't keep your old playerbase by annoying them at every opportunity.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

That's a big assumption with no supporting facts or examples.

Sraeg20132 votes

I'm sure you have an abundance of supporting facts or examples of nearly decade old video games that see substantial increase in their playerbases.

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

Riot isn't actively looking to expand the playerbase. It's their intent to retain the playerbase they already have. Their marketing is Esports.

Sraeg20132 votes

Sure, that's why they keep on getting new ideas how you can do more with friends. Directly using peer pressure as a form of drawing new players in.

Also your comment is irrelevant to my point.

Tomoe Gozen2 votes

I never said that. I said that since it's preseason, expecting of Riot to fix the issues by tomorrow isn't a realistic way of looking at this situation. You don't go head first into a problem without knowing what's causing it. If you do, chances are you're not going to fix anything but you're creating another one to solve later.

Sraeg20134 votes

The point is there will be little to no fixing, because the problem is INTENTIONAL.

Tomoe Gozen3 votes

If it's intentional, then it means it's not a problem. It's only a problem for you, which is a completely different matter altogether. I'm not saying that intentional changes can't be bad for the game (DQ) but just because some person thinks it's bad, it doesn't make it a fact.

Sraeg20132 votes

It's not a problem when somebody intentionally guns down children. It's only a problem for their parents, which is a completely different matter altogether.

Tomoe Gozen2 votes

That comparison makes no sense and you've gone beyond what we're discussing. You having a complaint about some part of the game doesn't mean it's actually a problem. I can have a problem with Yasuo but if his winrate is stable, his pickrate OK and his statistics overall don't show any major shifts in gameplay, it's just me who doesn't like playing against him because his playstyle perhaps counters my safe champions that shoot projectiles at range.

Xonra2 votes

TL;DR

Riot is a company run by adults, and they don't get free passes just because you (not literally you, as in the anyone this is directed at) want to be a white knight when they can take criticism just fine.

AirKingNeo3 votes

they had 2 years called season 6 and season 7.

Were they fucking around the whole time?

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

That's only your opinion. Because when you ask some other people the same question, they'd tell you this problem "existed" as far as Season 4 ended. So no, that's not the issue of S6 or S7. It's the issue of S8 and since it's the preseason, Riot isn't rushing to fix anything until Runes are all sorted out. Because one way you fuck up the entire situation up is to change many systems at once, without realizing what sort of impact each of them have on the game.

Furthermore, i've been playing League for 8 years and i don't feel the same way some people apparently feel. I've felt it happen on occasions when Riot was doing certain changes but they were fixed at that time. So again, it's only my opinion so i don't really have anything to complain about. I just wanted new runes and that's what i got.

Tormentula4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sqgj8tFE,comment-id=0006000000010000,timestamp=2017-11-12T21:42:55.375+0000)

That's only your opinion.

This is the one opinion I'd argue as fact.

Sure people complained about those seasons, and they complained about how it started then, but truth is some of the stuff they fucked up on back then got fixed, but again we had how many seasons now with some things being left the same?

"Damage creep is up since x season"

Riot Response: we never fucking fixed it, instead we keep it and add more problems throughout season x (7). Resulting in season 6/7 being even worse then previous seasons where it started because we got the same issues but wait, if you queue in the next 3 years there's more absolutely free!

Hell the only thing riot has ever gotten right and fixed after nearly destroying the game was dynamic queue and that's still debatable since its just a shitty failed ladder for the sake of trying to preserve what they still hold their ground as a good idea originally.

Xonra2 votes

Their little silly second queue is objectively bad. I can't see how anyone can argue it was a good idea to keep it.

The queue over there has terrible queue times, the matchmaking has been proven time and time again to be bad cause so few people play it, and on top of that is uselessly split the ranked playerbase and hurt queue times of normal ranked queue. All because Riot are stubborn when they think they are right, even after you show them they are wrong.

Yordle Xayah10 votes

You know what they say: If everything's broken, then nothing's broken... yeah, we're reaching that point [sg-janna]

korg02310 votes

7. We noticed performance and fps has gone worse over few patches, please look into it and fix it We hear you, we are looking into it,said Rito as they released preseason patch with even worse fps than ever before.

Tomoe Gozen2 votes

You do know they had a Dev Corner post regarding FPS drops and that they fixed things on their end but it's not yet a done job? If this problem was easy to track and fix in a patch, do you not think Riot would've done so without having the problem itself drag out for months?

I feel like some people on the boards don't really appreciate or recognize what's a developer's job and how sometimes, it's tedious work. Because all i seem to see is a demand after demand and when it's not met by the next patch, Riot is incompetent/lazy or doesn't really care?

Let's not be those people who belittle others who actually put in the work.

korg0236 votes

They never fixed it on their or anyones end. They just "looked" into it but not promises. As no promises were given nothing was even done.

Judge Zargabaath6 votes

I really enjoy how garbage the new rune system is, the old system was also shit. Actually every rework riot does it shit. especially all the ryze reworks.

Psybicilin13 votes

Show me your version of the League of Legends Rune/Mastery system wise one. Calling a system "shit" without explaining why or what Riot could do to make it better is pointless.

Scary Door10 votes

{quoted}

Show me your version of the League of Legends Rune/Mastery system wise one. Calling a system "shit" without explaining why or what Riot could do to make it better is pointless.

Their statement isn't wrong though----you may not have liked the way it was said and, sure, it could have offered more insight, but it is accurate.

The old runes system was shit because:

  • It would cost 6,300 IP for a rune page.
  • It would cost over 8,000 IP to buy the runes for a page---sometimes more depending upon which runes you wanted.
  • Some runes were 'noob traps' and really were sub-optimal while others were basically required (armor or health seals for example).
  • Scaling runes felt as though they didn't really scale hard enough and as the game has progressed through the years they became antiquated. This means that early game runes became most important.
  • Tier 1 and 2 runes (until their prices were reduced) were outrageously overpriced, felt awful to have once you hit 30, couldn't be refunded once you hit 30 (although they did try to implement a system to resolve this but it, too, was not ideal) and made the new player experience even more daunting.

The new runes system is shit because:

  • Taking anything other than damage or something that helps in doing more damage (such as the ultimate hat on Karma for example) feels like a waste.
  • There is very little durability to be found in the system. Oh, wow! You mean I can have a whole 100 HP at the cost of 10% damage? Where do I sign up?
  • Magic penetration no longer exists outside of very niche cases---therefore the only class that seems to be unable to do much damage are mages---luckily all of their counters still get access to hex drinker/Maw and Merc Scimitar. So why play a mage when I can play an AD assassin or ADC?
  • A rune to help you shred the already squishy towers seems like an awful idea, but it goes along well with the notion that...
  • Runes are there to help snowball games and make them end faster.
  • A few runes are completely useless, such as minion dematerializer. You would think with all of the feedback given and the "thought" put into the new system we would at least have nothing but viable choices, but the fact is, we don't.

Does that clear it up for you?

Dengeden5 votes

Well all of these are unsubstantiated and most of them are shortsighted so, good.

Scary Door6 votes

{quoted}

Well all of these are unsubstantiated and most of them are shortsighted so, good.

Do you have a specific example as to how that is the case? Or is this just a typical troll response on the board that offers a critique without any insight? I'm guessing the latter.

Dengeden3 votes

Sure lol, not like you listen.

"People's feedback" Boards is the minority of a minority. None of the myths that Scarra and Nightblue propagate to their hivemind followers are held on the much larger minority, reddit.

"Towers are [too weak]." If the alternative is farmfests where fighting is always the worst option, good. Furthermore, they're not too weak, people still whine about Yasuo ult not placing him under tower. Also, turretdiving the enemy toplaner in a laneswap was always a thing. Which indicates they weren't ever stronger. They're not too fragile either, or else people wouldn't bother with Rift Herald. But no, it's arguably the most valuable epic monster in the game.

"Tanks [do too much damage]." Tanks always needed to do damage. They need it for (wave)clear and to have the slightest bit of pressure. This myth cropped up when tanks became viable via Cinderhulk and people were surprised by what happens when tanks are viable.

"Tanks [got more tanky]." Not a myth but this is something people have consistently asked for. You reap what you sow. I'd also like to know what tanks should do if they neither deal nor take damage.

"Mages [insert anything that Boards says about them here]" There is absolutely nothing that indicates mages are weak. Nothing. They can't oneshot because the game has shifted away from oneshots and that's it. (And before you even try, full lethality either takes extremely long to scale up or is straight up cheesy, depending on the champion. Adcs can only "oneshot" if you stand there and don't do anything about them.) They dominate every possible stat that would indicate strength.

"ADCs scale too quickly." Again, if the alternative is ADCs being forced to farm in sidewaves, good. And also, it's another dubious statement, toplaners and junglers have always hated ADCs, why would that be if they'd truly been that weak? It's not like Triforce ADCs didn't use to pack a punch either.

"Games snowball too quickly." FF@20 is one of the oldest statements in League. Why do you think that is? Is it because the game is snowbally, or, the truth, people give up way too easily? Plus, farmfests, etc. He's also acting like the boatload of flat combat/tank stats that were replaced by runes won't make champions weaker in certain regards.

"Mobility rules the game." Well, I'd like you to name one champion with no mobility at all that doesn't have balance issues. Ok, you got me, this wasn't a misconception about the game, rather a misconception about game balance.

Kivolan2 votes

{quoted}

"Mobility rules the game." Well, I'd like you to name one champion with no mobility at all that doesn't have balance issues. Ok, you got me, this wasn't a misconception about the game, rather a misconception about game balance.

Annie Karthus Lux Orianna Xerath Velkoz

??? I'm actually confused here. Lack of mobility generally makes a champion more balanced than having it. Malzahar, for instance, was #1 in Mid Lane during the last season, but his lack of mobility makes it much easier to balance him with a few numbers adjustments.

Further, I don't understand how you can talk about the boards being "the minority". Of course, not all of League uses the boards, but if we say that 10% of the player population uses the boards and 75% of those players on the boards are unhappy with these preseason changes, doesn't that translate to 75% of players in the game likely being unhappy as well? The boards are simply the voice of the people. I suppose we'll find out, though, seeing how queue times are impacted by these changes if left unaddressed in a few months.

Scary Door4 votes

{quoted}

Sure lol, not like you listen.

Odd way to start your response. I don't know you and don't make assumptions about you, but apparently you do that to me, neat. Regardless of this auspicious start to your response, I'll continue.

"People's feedback" Boards is the minority of a minority. None of the myths that Scarra and Nightblue propagate to their hivemind followers are held on the much larger minority, reddit.

Oh, are you referring to the people that are professional players and know more about the game than you do? What a cavalier dismissal of their opinion. If people agree with someone then they're a "hivemind". To your larger point, how do you know that the Boards are how the minority feels and not the majority? Did you take a survey? What we have on the Boards is a sample---much like what is performed routinely with polls; you survey a certain number of people and it more-or-less represents the broad opinion of everyone in a specific group---the more people sampled, the higher the accuracy and lower the margin of error.

There are thousands of posts about this topic, if you took a poll and had thousands of responses, the margin of error would only be in the 2-5% range, so uh... it may be only a small number of people relative to the size of the community posting here on the Boards, but you can not say with any authority that it represents a "minority" opinion.

"Towers are [too weak]" If the alternative is farmfests where fighting is always the worst option, good. Furthermore, they're not too weak, people still whine about Yasuo ult not placing him under tower. Also, turretdiving the enemy toplaner in a laneswap was always a thing. Which indicates they weren't ever stronger. They're not too fragile either, or else people wouldn't bother with Rift Herald. But no, it's arguably the most valuable epic monster in the game.

That's kind of a straw-man argument there. You've created an alternative when the simplest solution is to buff towers, particularly in the early-mid game so that the laning phase can last longer than 7 minutes. Instead of your extremes we could try something in the middle.

As for the other nonsense about "turret diving was always a thing, blah blah blah", I've been playing since the middle of Season One (August 2011), when I started there was hardly ever a turret dive early game (pre level 6-8), now they happen every game and in every lane and rarely does the diving team lose anyone, even if you play to the best of your ability. The primary reason for this is that towers do far too little damage and champions do far too much damage.

The Rift Herald just makes snowballing even more out of control---glad you brought it up though... people go for the low-hanging fruit, the easiest path to victory. The team that's already ahead usually gets Rift Herald and it creates an even faster outlet to win the game.

"Tanks [do too much damage]" Tanks always needed to do damage. They need it for (wave)clear and to have the slightest bit of pressure. This myth cropped up when tanks became viable via Cinderhulk and people were surprised by what happens when tanks are viable.

This is just silly. We're not talking about base damage or what have you. Yes, tanks need early game damage to be relevant---typically tanks have always had high base damage, but minimal to low scaling so that you build them to mitigate damage in the mid to late game. Tanks don't need to do damage for "wave clear", otherwise tanks would just split push... in fact, everyone would just split push and League would never have teamfighting. As it is, there's already enough champions that can wave clear and split push... it is an inherently unhealthy direction for the game.

I'm sure what people are usually talking about when they say "tanks do too much damage" is more of a reflection about how EVERYTHING in League does too much damage basically. Which is simply indisputable at this point.

"Tanks [got more tanky]" Not a myth but this is something people have consistently asked for. You reap what you sow. I'd also like to know what tanks should do if they neither deal nor take damage.

I don't believe tanks have become more tanky, someone else said that.

"Mages [insert anything that Boards says about them here]" There is absolutely nothing that indicates mages are weak.

Oh really?

Of the 30 lowest win rate champions, 11 of them are mages, I didn't even include other champions that are "AP" primarily such as Mordekeiser, because God knows what he's even supposed to be, but he's in the bottom 30 as well. This isn't new, this was also the case in patch 7.21 and 7.20 saw 10 of the 30 lowest win rate champions as mages. Ryze, Taliyah, Cass consistently being in the bottom ten and Viktor is right behind them. Plus, with less magic penetration from runes, those who relied on it more are simply outclassed by AD assassins and carries.

They can't oneshot because the game has shifted away from oneshots and that's it.

Are we playing the same game? One shots happen all the time. There is more damage in League now than ever. It was VERY RARE to see anyone blown up in Season One like they are today, the only time that would happen is if someone was very far ahead, now the game is far less forgiving than it ever was before.

"ADCs scale too quickly" Again, if the alternative is ADCs being forced to farm in sidewaves, good. And also, it's another dubious statement, toplaners and junglers have always hated ADCs, why would that be if they'd truly been that weak? It's not like Triforce ADCs didn't use to pack a punch either.

Again, a straw man, no one is saying that all we want is farming, but there has to be a happy medium. ADCs were intended to be late game champions for the most part with a few exceptions. Caitlyn was always the strong lane bully, but most were intended to be mid or late game hyper carries (such as Trist, Vayne and Kog'Maw).

My God, it's as if you don't even play this game anymore.

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