Someone please explain to me why Riven doesn't have a mana bar. Does she even have any costs period? At least require her to have some fury or something when she has three engage/escape skills on 4-5 second cooldowns with CDR.
mi ramfan99 votesRiven doesn't use a mana bar for a few reasons:
If Riven had mana, she would gain the full benefit from items like Sheen builds and Frozen Heart. This could potentially give her a fallback pattern in addition to her snowballing ability; for example, imagine killing a Riven in lane as Renekton only to see her TP back to lane with a Glacial Shroud.
Riven wouldn't work with the known alternative resource systems either. She has a unique combination of burst and sustained skill usage that would synergize awkwardly with any given resource system. Heat and Fury, for example, both fail due to thematic reasons (and could you imagine Riven dealing 20% bonus damage in the "Danger Zone"?). Energy hard gates her to one spell rotation before she has to recharge energy, essentially making CDR meaningless on her and thus gimping her build paths even harder. Having no secondary resource is the best decision for Riven's kit.
If Riven used mana, she would probably be justified in having a much higher base health regen than she did now. Her primary weakness in lane (having to time E properly to block damage or get outsustained) would be completely neutralized.
Kingsgrave9 votes[{quoted}](name=mi ramfan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWdI0EFf,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-03T19:22:36.434+0000)
Riven doesn't use a mana bar for a few reasons:
If Riven had mana, she would gain the full benefit from items like Sheen builds and Frozen Heart. This could potentially give her a fallback pattern in addition to her snowballing ability; for example, imagine killing a Riven in lane as Renekton only to see her TP back to lane with a Glacial Shroud.
Riven wouldn't work with the known alternative resource systems either. She has a unique combination of burst and sustained skill usage that would synergize awkwardly with any given resource system. Heat and Fury, for example, both fail due to thematic reasons (and could you imagine Riven dealing 20% bonus damage in the "Danger Zone"?). Energy hard gates her to one spell rotation before she has to recharge energy, essentially making CDR meaningless on her and thus gimping her build paths even harder. Having no secondary resource is the best decision for Riven's kit.
If Riven used mana, she would probably be justified in having a much higher base health regen than she did now. Her primary weakness in lane (having to time E properly to block damage or get outsustained) would be completely neutralized.
Realistically she will never use Sheen or Iceborne Gauntlet or Trinity Force. She only scales with AD and CDR. Anything else is not needed and mostly limits her power. Taking an Armor + Mana + CDR item is going to hurt how much damage all of her abilities and autos do while also hurting how much effective health she has from her E. It seems like a terrible idea. Sheen would give her some benefit but she already gains a lot from her auto steroid passive that it would seem like overkill.
I still doubt she would have that much higher health regen because of how much she can spam her shield. It would be higher, yes, but her entire early game would be at least 3 times weaker than on live if she used Mana giving her a real weakness in lane.
The only real concern would be how powerful her mid to late would be when she can efficiently use 
in combination with eachother. The former item basically does what you implied Sheen would do, causing her damage to be INCREDIBLY high with enough Mana.
Narasimha22 votesSheen would give her some benefit but she already gains a lot from her auto steroid passive that it would seem like overkill.
Overkill is underrated.
I Main Swain18 votesRealistically she will never use Sheen or Iceborne Gauntlet or Trinity Force. She only scales with AD and CDR
and many others who for a while popularly were built trinity force (at least in my experience) have no ap. if trinity force were about the ap, id be building it on 
. it's about giving a damage boost to AD spammers (notice the ad in there).
saying that taking iceborn would limit her ability and auto damage significantly enough to negate the slow and the bonus damage is like saying that lich bane is useless on fizz because it scales off ad as well, or (more accurately) saying that getting banshees on a carry is useless and lowers their potential.
The only real concern would be how powerful her mid to late would be when she can efficiently use in combination with eachother.
you're going to try to tell us that trinity force and iceborn would be useless wastes of gold on her, but that manamune and essence reaver would? I mean, sure they would increase her damage but the benefit of trinity force and iceborn would be waaaaay higher in so many ways.
meneroth22 votesSo riven was designed with sheen/trinity in mind and as a result they gave her low base damage as the trinity force proc multiplies base damage, not built damage. Darius and rengar can use it because their base damage is a lot higher. Manamune would work with her because due to the spammy quality of her spells she would have to be given a size able mana pool to remain viable.
Tri gives speed, bonus base damage and crit. She needs none of these things. If she had a mana bar Manamune would give ad and mana, both things she would need and benefit doubly from.
Auz the Ripper3 votesRiven's Base Damage is 107 at Lvl 18 Rengar's Base Damage is 111 at lvl 18
That's a difference of merely 4 damage And even if that small difference was significant; 107, 133.75, or 214 is a large and welcome hunk of damage regardless The literal only reason sheen isn't core on riven is that she cannot use any of the stats it offers. If that were to change I'm confident it would become a standard part of Riven's build
SimaZao3 votes"imagine killing a Riven in lane as Renekton only to see her TP back to lane with a Glacial Shroud."
She can already do this? She doesn't HAVE to buy items with mana included, that's not a negative, that's a positive! To further say that Riven is too unique to use mana, ignores the other 102 champions that use mana already.
67chrome48 votesSomeone please explain to me why Riven doesn't have a mana bar.
Riven is pretty easy to explain.
Auto-attacks are manaless. Burst damage costs more and more mana the more front-loaded it makes your damage.
Veigar and LeBlanc have pretty obscene mana costs for their ability to front-load ~10 seconds of damage into 1 second.
Riven's combo is something like R + E + auto + Q + auto + W + auto + Q + auto + Q + auto + auto + R cramming 10 seconds of burst into ~7 seconds.
Not that impressive compared to Jax (also a fighter/assassin) who is capable of landing a Leap Strike + Empowered Strike at the same time, fallowed emediatly by a sheen/tri-force AA with a Grandmaster's proc, both damaging instances a fraction of a second apart, in a window where you can activate Counterstike at the same time to unload all of his kit's damage in an instant.
Obviously Jax's combo does less damage than Riven's, but it's still cramming ~5 seconds of damage into 1 second.
Riven gets to be manaless because there's just a lot of time to react to her combo. You can move, cast your skills, unload your entire QWER rotation long before she can finish her's. Jax just unleashes everything on you, skips away, then does it again 11 seconds later.
And again - to highlight the manaless nature of auto-attacks, both Jax's AA steroids don't cost mana, so given the oppertunity to dish out some sustained DPS over burst, he's not gated by mana when he finds that opportunity.
If you look at most alternate-resource champions they function in this way, especially if you compare them to other members of their archetype. Kennen and Vladimir are more on the sustained-damage, slow-combo direction over other mages, Garen's Judgement and Rumble's Flame-Spitter might as well be Tiamat auto-attacks, Aatrox, Yasou, and Tryndamere basically don't do anything but auto-attack. Akali is even pretty close to an auto-attacker with her set-up, requring on AAing to make use of her passive, splitting her Q into 2 parts, and requiring 3 ult casts (over just 1) to complete a full combo.
The other main consideration of mana costs are range. You can easily feel this with champions like Caitlyn, Ashe, Ezreal, Lux - if you want more range than their kit/AA provides, you spend some mana for a significant boost in range.
You'll generally notice a lot of manaless champions also have very minimal range. Most of them are melee, and in the case of Vlad and Kennen - ~650 range is not that much when you've got Lux, Ziggs, Xerath, and Morganna in the same archetype.
So again with Riven - she gets basically no range at all on anything but her ultimate's special, and she's basically an auto-attacker with an interesting take on an AA steroid. There's lots of ways to work around her, and a significant number of disadvantages her skills have.
Not exactly sure the reasoning for champions like Zed and Kat to be manaless.
Kat at least has a weak lanning phase reliant on actually using her manaless nature by poking things to break even, but haven't figured this one out.
TLDR: Riven is manaless because auto-attacks are manaless, and Riven basically auto-attacks things with her abilities.
PerishSoftly8 votesThis... Well heck, that pretty much answers all my own questions/bitching about manaless/resourceless champs.
Here, have an upvote.
acepil0t4 votesAt least we agree on Kat/Zed. Otherwise we somewhat disagree. Still, you presented your information with backup and didn't overstep into attacking or degrading the question that was asked. Very professionally done and very much appreciated. Have my good upvote sir.
Kuroi863 votesNot exactly sure the reasoning for champions like Zed and Kat to be manaless.
Zed has energy, though his energy costs could be considered a little forgiving and he could do with a minor increase of 5 to each, but that's just imo. Another factor is cast time on his Q, the delay between cast and pop on his ult giving an opportunity to counter, and him being melee and a lot of his damage forcing him into close range. Again, his kit is a little too forgiving, but we're talking minor number tweaks.
Kat, similarly is melee and has to get relatively close for a lot of her damage, her long cooldowns are really only balanced out by her passive. Now add on that her ult isn't as much burst as it is a heavy dot within a specific range.
Feathermane3 votesLong cooldowns on Kat? Can I have your version of the game?
Kuroi864 votesBecause 10 and 12 second cool downs aren't long?
Feathermane5 votesXerath's cooldowns are 9, 14 and 13. Talon's - 8, 10 and 18. So no, not particularly long.
D1rtFarmer4 votesdianas slow is 24 seconds at lvl 1..
LankPants7 votesRiven's combo is something like R + E + auto + Q + auto + W + auto + Q + auto + Q + auto + auto + R cramming 10 seconds of burst into ~7 seconds.
And that would be fair enough if Riven was actually locked into animations. The problem is that if a Riven animation cancels even decently they can cut that combo time in half, high level Riven players can combo E-AA-Q-AA-W+Hydra-Q-AA-Q-AA in about 2 and a half seconds at which point it's basically front ended burst.
L7xLoTek3 votesGood answer, well written.
But then, why does Skarner use mana? It used to be to gate his perma-slow, but nowadays? Just legacy?
The Bearded Bard36 votesGonna have to agree. No mana champs shouldn't have such low cooldowns.
KaisadiIIa29 votesNo mana champions shouldn't exist.
Chromatic Eagle16 votesThey can exist it's just that Riot sucks at balancing them.
KING OF MASKS20 votes
just doesn't know how spells work, okay? He can't use mana.
Gunpoint2 votesNot since the his magic wand has been removed ;_; RIP DFG.
YossarianSensei17 votesBecause her spells aren't that strong
She wins lane from spamming, but without her spam her abilities are far weaker than mana abilities
Matezoide14 votesGaren is literally the only champion that pays for being resourceless by having meh scalling, meh abilites and huge cooldowns.
30% CDR Garen has a higher CD on Ult than Riven with 0% lolo
Slaaneshine9 votesThat ultimate can also kill basically anybody even 1% under half health at rank 2. I've had rank three ultimates killing ADCs at 60%. Riven's ultimate, while ranged and hitting multiple people, has realistically low damage unless she's fed up the walls. It's always used really for that last finish and the extra AD. Garen's SPACESWORD just instantly murders a single person. Also, it's magic damage. You can't really build resistances against it in laneing phase.
Champion Skin3 votesWell... Riven ult has a lot more to it then only the activate though Riven ult improves ALL of her abilities and her passive (because more AD) and it also increase the Q + W AoE
While yes you can't build MR against Garen in lane... though on the other hand Garen has no way to increase the damage of his ult when everyone is getting some MR (Banshee/GA/Mercurial scimitar/Abysal for AP/AD carries usually) as the only thing that increase the damage would be magic pen
The only way I can see Garen ult killing an ADC with 60% hp is if it is DFG Garen and the ADC have 30 Mr
JustMyBassCannon10 votes"If a champion has CC there has to be a reason why."
"If a champion has AoE there has to be a reason why."
"If a champion has a unique mechanic there has to be a reason why."
Because Riot designed the champion with that. There's your reason.
acepil0t6 votesI think what was meant is that there are tradeoffs to bed made, and things that shouldn't be things. Like high damage and hard CC should not be in a kit unless things like mobility and tankiness are traded off.
JustMyBassCannon6 votesSo it's more, "Where's the cost?"
Riven has no ranged attacks for harass, her hard CC is very short duration, and aside from her E shield, she has no innate defense. Her only actual steroid, something extremely important to Fighters, is her ultimate, so it's restricted by a longer cooldown than most steroids (and, actually, it's one of the few examples of a short-duration AD steroid; the other three off the top of my head are on tanks and are significantly stronger).
Shall I go on?
D1rtFarmer2 votesso buying health potions... thats the cost?
JustMyBassCannon2 votesI've seen you often enough to know that you're just fucking around here. I don't trust you to hold a regular discussion about Riven.
ProfDrDeath2 votesShort-duration AD steroids:
Alistar R, Mundo E, Gangplank E, Janna E, Malphite W, Nasus R, Nocturne Q, Poppy W, Rengar Empowered Q, Riven R, Taric R, Trundle Q, Vayne R, Twitch R
Basically, short-term AD steroids can be found on tanks, fighters and AD carries, but mostly not on dedicated assassins - Rengar was supposed to be a fighter with his rework and Poppy is an incredibly old design that was more concepted as a fighter and not as an assassin (although her kit turned out to be good for that). Interestingly, both AD carries with AD steroids play akin to assassins, with Twitch using his stealth to close in on somebody and Vayne being able to dish out enormous and almost unrivaled single-target damage, regardless of the target.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesThank you for catching that detail. I figured I was overlooking something.
Gank in Progress10 voteslow elo people complaining about riven again... goddammit.
Kivolan3 votesHonestly I'm not so much complaining as much as asking a question... And it does pertain to a variety of manaless champs. Riven isn't even the worst offender, honestly. Zed has poke, Gnar has poke, Kat has (pretty crappy, admittedly) poke. IMO, manaless champs just need to go in general. Everyone should use the same mana bar, and if needed, have a third resource bar for that 'extra' crap like Rengar's skills and what not.
I really don't have many problems with Riven. I know which champs to pick to shut her down, though in the end, like Nasus, she'll still end up with a ridiculous amount of CS regardless of my efforts to harass due to her shield / escapes.
As for low elo... I'm not sure if Gold is considered low or not by your standards, but yeah I do get tired of my allies constantly getting facerolled by her. If nothing else I wish people would at least only let her have the CS and stop feeding her kills as well.
In a perfect world though, eh?
Champion Skin4 votesWell... giving Shen a mana bar probably would buff him... (at least after laning phase) since his tools for regaining energy is rather lacking and his E drains so much energy he can barely use his Q/W And this would also make CDR much better on Shen (Hello Frozen heart)
Crett9 votesshen with mana would honestly be stronger
SleepyLionCub8 votesI know ima get downvoted for this, since anyone who isnt an avid riven player never knows this. but riven essentially has hp costs, since any harass she gets, is almost permanent since her HP regen is so low.
JustMyBassCannon5 votesNot gonna downvote, but that's inaccurate.
Riven doesn't "harass" She goes all-in, or she gets the hell out.
Lacking any form of ranged damage means lacking any form of actual harass.
SleepyLionCub7 votesNot gonna downvote, but that's inaccurate.
Riven doesn't "harass" She goes all-in, or she gets the hell out.
Lacking any form of ranged damage means lacking any form of actual harass.
I think you misunderstood. I meant to say any time SHE gets harassed by the enemy. she cant just passively heal any of that back. Or any damage from minions early game for that matter
JustMyBassCannon1 votesAh, I see.
She does have that shield, but it's not quite as huge a defensive boon in the laning phase. Better for avoiding skill shots than actual damage in a lot of cases.
Champion Skin3 votesRiven has one of the worst HP regen in the game... however lifesteal (Hydra/vamp scepter) usually remedies this
ProfDrDeath4 votesLifesteal isn't free, though, and buying a Vampiric Scepter early is actually rather detrimental to Riven's snowballing potential.
HEXXEN9x1 votesA) Rivens over shield + Q's knocking champs around"stopping them from attacking you back" would seriously disagree with you.
What harasses a riven ? the turrets or minions ?
I need to save a counter for how many riven has killed someone under their turret, losing 10% of her health or less before any turrent has been broken.
SleepyLionCub5 votesA) Rivens over shield + Q's knocking champs around"stopping them from attacking you back" would seriously disagree with you.
What harasses a riven ? the turrets or minions ?
I need to save a counter for how many riven has killed someone under their turret, losing 10% of her health or less before any turrent has been broken.
Play riven against a good GP, or Panth, and tell me that nothing can harass her.
Altricad3 votesYou guys treat riven like she's forbidden from buying 
s or something. Every riven I've faced comes to lane with 5 health potions and ends up sustaining more than me when I'm playing f*king 
while also cheesing me whenever I come to take some cs.
The only reason she isn't qq'd about even though she has obscene amounts of damage and mobility is that she has her counters
2pudge1cup4 votesI'm not sure if Riven is the best example of this point, but I understand the OP's concerns completely. It seems like being manaless is something extra just tacked on to some kits willy-nilly that puts them at a huge advantage over mana users without them having to pay for the extra power (ie weaker abilities).
ProfDrDeath3 votesAgreed - especially with the regen nerf, Riven is actually in a good spot right now.
Examples for manaless being more-or-less tacked on:
"What is broken can be reforged."