Kog'maw standing still outduels an assassin.

Dasdi96··26 votes·1,906 views

When is this getting fixed? I remember when adcs had to orbwalk.

26 Comments

TurquoiseYoshi14 votes

Proof + context?

nm10108 votes

So we've finally reached the point where gameplay thinks Kog'maw's meta build should make him nearly impervious to assassins while still shredding tanks and that is ok.

AFilthyCaitMain7 votes

If he outdueled you then

A. You were way behind him

B. Youre bad

Harsh truth

ModWulf Helhammer5 votes

Talon was behind by 3100 gold. It's pretty clear what went wrong here.

Dasdi962 votes

Kog had frozen mallet, guinsoos, botrk, and ninja tabi. Talon had dusknlade, ghostblade, mercury treads, and a tiamat.

Icathian Creed1 votes

I wanna build a tiamat on kogmaw...

Icathian Creed1 votes

I miss old rageblade...

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

Kog'Maw has always been the "stand still and hope they die before they reach you" kind of champion. It's why JuggerMaw comps became a thing. More than other ADCs, if you don't get to him in time, he will destroy you.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

Kog'Maw has always been the "stand still and hope they die before they reach you" kind of champion. It's why JuggerMaw comps became a thing. More than other ADCs, if you don't get to him in time, he will destroy you.

If you put a glass cannon verses a glass cannon, the winner is pretty much who ever lands the first shot.

But in OP's description, Frozen Mallet and Ninja Tabi, doesn't exactly make you glass cannon though. And in Kog's case with his long range and low mobility, Using Frozen Mallet and continual attacks, probably is better than orb walking.

I also don't consider Talon the most duelist esk Assassin out their. His best bet should have been to use his ult for invisibility, and nail kog before he presents himself a target.

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

His best bet should have been to use his ult for invisibility, and nail kog before he presents himself a target.

Exactly. That's how you're supposed to fight an ADC (especially Kog). You don't try and run up to them while facetanking the damage. Assassins are just as squishy as ADCs, but while ADCs have range, assassins have mobility and burst.

jwebb01135 votes

so if kog was to the point in the game where he had ninja tabs and frozen mallet then it had to be 30mins + into the game

and with his mix damage % hp damage and on hit effects and his range with W and ULT he will shred anything that steps into his path

he has always did this he is a late game hyper carry

if you let him get 5-6 items he will do this regardless if he gets a frozen mallet or not cuz that only gives him 30 ad

and considering the assassin died to him the assassin position poorly , engaged poorly ... and had no defensive vs kog so kog being the lil puppy void monster he is chewed right through him

working as designed

Teridax6813 votes

Sure, but "in time" should still be more than enough time for an assassin to get in range and land their burst. Unless the assassin was severely behind and/or flubbed their combo, Kog'Maw (and Kog'Maw specifically) should have died to them, no contest. Kog is specifically designed to be exceptionally team-dependent and vulnerable on his own, so if even he can outduel an assassin on approximately equal gold, something is very wrong.

Icathian Creed1 votes

Dont underestimate me :)

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

Talon was severely behind, by 3100 gold. Kog'Maw had 3 completed items + boots, Talon had only 2 and 3rd + boots. So considering that, and that OP has given no proof at all, it is just as easily considered that Talon just messed up while trying to attack a fed carry. And as I've said in another comment, assassins are just as squishy. If they don't play right, they will die.

Teridax689 votes

Okay, sure, all the reasons you just put forth in this comment are valid as to how Talon can lose to Kog'Maw one-on-one, but that's not what you said in the comment I replied to. The fact that your initial comment tried to defend the possibility of Kog'Maw, the least independent marksman in the game, outdueling an assassin, using no information from any particular match and without bringing up the assassin potentially messing up, on the argument that he is meant to kill anyone who doesn't reach him within an indeterminate amount of time, does not really demonstrate that same balanced viewpoint you are trying to put forth now.

For sure, if the assassin doesn't play right, they will die, but if Kog'Maw doesn't play right, e.g. if he mispositions and gets caught out by the assassin alone, he should die as well. It is also worth mentioning that the criterion here for Talon "playing right" is successfully approaching Kog'Maw and landing his entire combo (which is admittedly easier to do on a stationary target), whereas the criterion for Kog'Maw to succeed here is, by your judgment, to "stand still and hope they die before they reach you". Because of this, I do think there's a bit of unfair judgment going on here, as the argument as it has been framed gives Kog little room to fail, and puts the onus on the assassin to not only land their entire combo in order to kill him, but also to survive a stream of damage they should naturally be more able to stop with significantly more burst damage. By all rights, it is the assassin here who should have relatively less room to fail against Kog'Maw, because Kog is one of the least mobile, most defenseless targets in the game, with his only assets being range (which assassins can bypass via mobility) and DPS. Even if the assassin is somewhat behind, they should still have enough natural leeway to be able to deal with him, just as Kog is naturally well-equipped to deal with tanky melee opponents.

Mianta2 votes

Little room to fail? You have to consider positioning a factor as that's a fundamental element of an adc's gameplay. Any adc has a huge amount of room to fail when it comes to team/enemy awareness, skillshots, positioning, and appropriate focusing. An adc is a high-risk high-reward position and simply put, assassins are the natural counter to them. Especially Kog'Maw. And in most situations, yeah, an assassin should be able to burst one down. The factors that need to be considered in real game situations however are: Positioning, gold difference, item build, ability to land combo, skill, timing, cooldowns, etc etc. Even if the Kog'Maw builds some tank items, all Talon needs to do is ult and jump on the void puppy OR jump over a wall w/ his passive and burst him down in time. If he runs up to Kog and face-checks his entire combo + aa's, then of course he's going to die and that's his fault. Not Kog'Maw's kit and damage potential.

Teridax681 votes

I completely agree, positioning is key to a marksman's success. However, what I'm pointing out is that the discussion as it is framed here gives Kog'Maw little room to fail, because if he's dueling the enemy assassin he's already failed by being massively out of position. For him to get caught out by a member of a class designed to kill him and still be able to kill that enemy (and survive), something really screwy needed to have happened, beyond an item's worth of gold difference in the mid game. I don't think it's really justified to say that Talon should have popped his stealth or used the walls to hide himself until the last second, because even if not using cover should have him take more damage, it should not mean he'd take so much damage that he'd die to Kog'Maw before getting in range.

I don't think it's really okay to excuse Kog'Maw being able to mow down a melee enemy solo before they can get in range of him, especially not before late game, because that simply means a whole bunch of champions can't really interact with him, certainly not those less mobile than an assassin (which is most melees). If he had a front line to back him up, that would make more sense, because he's supposed to be a glass cannon DPS, but if he ends up being forced into a duel, he should always be at a disadvantage because he is meant to be the most terrible marksman at dueling. Again, this is perhaps the least duel-oriented damage champion in the entire game, pitted against a member of a class whose victory condition in a fight heavily relies on catching vulnerable targets alone and engaging them one-on-one. If even that situation gets slanted in favor of Kog'Maw, there is a deep issue with the game's current balance.

DragonShea4 votes

{quoted}

Kog'Maw has always been the "stand still and hope they die before they reach you" kind of champion. It's why JuggerMaw comps became a thing. More than other ADCs, if you don't get to him in time, he will destroy you.

Bullshit, Assassin are meant to butcher immobile ADC's like Kog but they can't because he now has tank items, giving him a chance to retaliate, HARD!

ModWulf Helhammer4 votes

Yes, they are, and yes, they still can...if they play right. For instance, Talon ulting in and getting the drop on Kog before he even knows he's in danger. But if Talon disrespects that damage, he's going to die. As I said, assassins are just as squishy.

Being as OP has given no context or proof of how this happened, Talon misplaying how to go about assassinating is just as likely of happening.

An extra 700 health and 30 armor are hardly going to mean anything vs a Talon with two lethality items and Duskblade. However, in this situation, Talon is dreadfully behind. Kog'Maw had 11200 worth of items. Talon? Only 8100. That's 3 full items against 2 and a 3rd with a difference of 3100 gold. So given the lack of evidence that Talon did his job correctly, and the evidence that Kog'Maw was very far ahead of Talon, it's quite obvious why Talon died.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, they are, and yes, they still can...if they play right. For instance, Talon ulting in and getting the drop on Kog before he even knows he's in danger. But if Talon disrespects that damage, he's going to die. As I said, assassins are just as squishy.

Being as OP has given no context or proof of how this happened, Talon misplaying how to go about assassinating is just as likely of happening.

An extra 700 health and 30 armor are hardly going to mean anything vs a Talon with two lethality items and Duskblade. However, in this situation, Talon is dreadfully behind. Kog'Maw had 11200 worth of items. Talon? Only 8100. That's 3 full items against 2 and a 3rd with a difference of 3100 gold. So given the lack of evidence that Talon did his job correctly, and the evidence that Kog'Maw was very far ahead of Talon, it's quite obvious why Talon died.

Yes that is a possibility but is it as plausible as you say it is? Nope 9 out of 10 time assassins win, the few times they don't it's because of various factors that work against them.

That said. Assassin are a nature counter to immobile ADC's

Icathian Creed2 votes

Hehe

If I can get my perfect build, its rageblade, bork, runaans, bloodthirster, frozen mallet, and spirits visage.

No boots, but its fun to watch people think they can kill you and then fail, then fail again at escaping

cant figure out how to get rid of this box....

:D

TricolorStar2 votes

The whole point of Kog'Maw is that once his W is active, he literally can't orbwalk due to the high rate of fire. This plants him in one spot, turning him into a squishy artillery cannon. That's what he's designed around (his abilities are actually called Living Artillery and Bio-Arcane Barrage). He is the Void's version of heavy ballistics ordinance.

Botifier1 votes

You do realize the kog rework was reverted right? Though your other statements seem right.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

What was Kog's build? If the assassin had no defense, he should be deleted by 700 range by Kog, if he is with crit build. On-hit Kog can't 1shot anyone, but can melt tanks.

PePsiLemoNN1 votes

If he isn't very fed and it isn't late game ( where assassins fall off and hypercarries like Kog do things) then Kog can't outduel an assassin standing still.

Btw you could share a video of Kog outdueling an assassin right? :^)

FearlessCreator1 votes

Orbwalking

lul dota players

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