Still miss atmas impaler :(

Rozair·Jan 12, 2016·24 votes·2,369 views

What was so wrong with this item riot?

56 Comments

AhristocatsJan 12, 201616 votes

"Quite frankly, it'd be pretty easy to make Atma's Impaler good (make it slot-efficient, rather than gold-efficient, given how late of an item buy it is) - but we're not convinced that making Atma's Impaler good would make the game better - so we've been holding off on it."- xypherous

oh right mister i designed the broken item 3153 of season 3

KONO RUBICK DAJan 12, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=soEnfdlv,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-12T16:10:57.487+0000)

"Quite frankly, it'd be pretty easy to make Atma's Impaler good (make it slot-efficient, rather than gold-efficient, given how late of an item buy it is) - but we're not altogether convinced that making Atma's Impaler good would make the game better - so we've been holding off on it."- xypherous

xypherous is the certainlyT of 2011 designed Fizz Lulu Heimerdinger Riven failed to justify why renekton and riven are manaless yet trying to talk about what makes the game better

HeadHonchkrowJan 13, 20161 votes

Xypherous also designed Orianna Nautilus if I'm not wrong, and those two champions are well-made, aren't they?

doublelift fgJan 12, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=soEnfdlv,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-12T16:10:57.487+0000)

"Quite frankly, it'd be pretty easy to make Atma's Impaler good (make it slot-efficient, rather than gold-efficient, given how late of an item buy it is) - but we're not convinced that making Atma's Impaler good would make the game better - so we've been holding off on it."- xypherous

oh right mister i designed the broken of season 3

remember that xyph wanted to remove frozen mallet in s4

Phoenix Kotori Jan 12, 20164 votes

To be fair he probably knew Gnar was coming & was trying to spare us from him abusing it.

KONO RUBICK DAJan 12, 201611 votes

listen very carefully

atma used to be gold efficient at lvl 12 on all champs, that's what was wrong, the item should have been a scaling on bruisers in late game, but instead it already gave you a BF lvl of AD in mid game, instead of changing it to % bonus HP so base HP doesn't make it gold efficient in mid game, riot removed the item.

why? only one answer exists: xypherous was a pro when it came to ADC items, but was the shittiest designer when it came to bruisers Items

FrikgeekJan 12, 20161 votes

To get old BF levels of AD you'd still need 3000 health. That's still a bit more than most lvl 12 bruisers have unless they completely ignore resistances. And Titanic hydra exists and does basically the same job, it'll give you similar AD lategame with a better active and passive. It gives you 400 health which is comparable to the 45 armor you got from Atma's.

KONO RUBICK DAJan 12, 20164 votes

{quoted}

To get old BF levels of AD you'd still need 3000 health. That's still a bit more than most lvl 12 bruisers have unless they completely ignore resistances. And Titanic hydra exists and does basically the same job, it'll give you similar AD lategame with a better active and passive. It gives you 400 health which is comparable to the 45 armor you got from Atma's.

my friends, old warmog used to cost 3000 gold and gave 1350 hp

WoonStruckJan 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

my friends, old warmog used to cost 3000 gold and gave 1350 hp

In addition, you had green elixir, Trinity, and Atma's on most of those champions, giving you ~40% crit rate, IIRC. You ended up very tanky, very sticky, and very painful.

If I remember, core builds were usually Phil Stone+HoG (stacking gp10 OP) into either Trinity+FoN, Warmog's+Atma's, or Trinity+Atma's. Sometimes grabbing FMallet was an option if you didn't opt into Trinity Force, which also had the slow (35% chance tho).

Wit's End was a thing for anyone with on-hits too.

AhristocatsJan 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

In addition, you had green elixir, Trinity, and Atma's on most of those champions, giving you ~40% crit rate, IIRC. You ended up very tanky, very sticky, and very painful.

If I remember, core builds were usually Phil Stone+HoG (stacking gp10 OP) into either Trinity+FoN, Warmog's+Atma's, or Trinity+Atma's. Sometimes grabbing FMallet was an option if you didn't opt into Trinity Force, which also had the slow (35% chance tho).

Wit's End was a thing for anyone with on-hits too.

classic build was item 3078 item 3091 item 3083 atma+force of nature+ item 1322 on a bruiser, you had like 170 mr, 150 armor, a lot of hp

unlike tanks who had 250 armor,200 mr

FrikgeekJan 13, 20161 votes

And atma's gave you 2% HP to damage instead of 1.5% it was nerfed to. Yes, that was completely cancerous and it was nerfed for a reason.

Bringing back that combination would just be stupid. Bringing back the nerfed atma's would just be pointless as better items exist in the same role.

KONO RUBICK DAJan 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

And atma's gave you 2% HP to damage instead of 1.5% it was nerfed to. Yes, that was completely cancerous and it was nerfed for a reason.

Bringing back that combination would just be stupid. Bringing back the nerfed atma's would just be pointless as better items exist in the same role.

read my original post, you will understand WHAT was cancerous, it was because at 25 min bruisers had 3000 hp and 250 ad the enemy adc didn't even have time to finish his madred, the mage couldn't compet with those moving bulldozers, and titanic shit isn't better then atma get over yourself, an on-hit effect item is never better than a scaling item, doesn't proc lifesteal, doesn't increase your spell damage. especially since bruisers scale with cdr.

Critmaster GarenJan 12, 20167 votes

inb4 people coming in trying to tell you that they removed it because it gave damage from building defense, when they actually removed it because it was bad after all the nerfs, and the awkward stat combination for most champions (with critical strike attached to it).

right now, riot is loading adc items with defense for building offense, and for some reason i dont hear complaints about it.

the only reason it was nerfed was because of the midgame powerspike it granted from rushing the item. they could have done something with it that made more sense. like make the passive scale with bonus health instead of total health. or just increase the price. they decided to dumpster it instead for no reason.

AlwaysByMySideJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=soEnfdlv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-01-12T15:48:33.151+0000)

right now, riot is loading adc items with defense for building offense, and for some reason i dont hear complaints about it.

lol, sure you have.

Best princess EUJan 12, 20166 votes

madred's blood razor was extremely trash before season 3.

blood razor: 4200 gold, magic damage, no active,

item 3153 : 3200 gold, physical damage, has an active that can peel for you, can lifesteal off % bonus damage

and item 3151 didn't exist, item 3123 was trash, this made bruisers unfun to play against because while having an OK damage (except some) they were extremely unkillable with 3k hp, a lot of armor/hp regen.

now i just want riot to REALISE this whole thing, we have a lot of options to counter them ( item 3036 ) they can try to get it back

Phoenix Kotori Jan 12, 20161 votes

It already came back is just has a different name & form but it still feels the role Atma's did item 3748 .

Best princess EUJan 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=soEnfdlv,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-01-12T16:41:43.676+0000)

It already came back is just has a different name & form but it still feels the role Atma's did .

it's on hit effect, meaning 90% of bruisers can't use it

Phoenix Kotori Jan 12, 20161 votes

90% please majority of brusiers have some reason or benefit to auto & are meant to auto between spells because they generally need to go into melee range.

Aatrox Garen Volibear Pantheon DrMundo Shyvana Hecarim LeeSin Olaf Renekton XinZhao etc all do.

Sure Garen Pantheon MonkeyKing have channels which they don't auto during, but that doesn't make them unable to auto to use it.

So who do you considerable unable to use it? Darius is the only one who comes to mind due to his subpar AS.

KONO RUBICK DAJan 12, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=soEnfdlv,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-12T18:05:39.443+0000)

90% please majority of brusiers have some reason or benefit to auto & are meant to auto between spells because they generally need to go into melee range.

etc all do.

Sure have channels which they don't auto during, but that doesn't make them unable to auto to use it.

So who do you considerable unable to use it? is the only one who comes to mind due to his subpar AS.

pantheon doesn't auto attack, what the fuck? pantheon used to be press W/E and hit for 70% of your hp then press Q and if you didn't die he would just wait 4 sec to press Q again.

same for wukong, E-Q-R and you die, wukong can't even make use of hydr since his ulti prevents him to attack

the only one of your list that can use it is mundo because of the active, shyvana because she stacks on hit effect, renekton because of his W, vi (but she didn't exist when atma was here she could have been better with the AD ratio on her ulti/Q) and xin.

the other just lost a shit tons of scaling on their abilities

Phoenix Kotori Jan 12, 20162 votes

You realize Wukong Q is an empowered auto right? And that his E gives him AS.

And I know pantheon doesn't normally do it early game, but his passive rewards him for autoing.

Voli, Lee, Aatrox, & Olaf all not only AS buffs, but are rewarded for autoing, so how does it not work for them?

Putting Hecarim was probably a stretch though.

the other just lost a shit tons of scaling on their abilities

That's the point, riot didn't like health scaling onto abilities not meant to, so thus only autos made it fit more generally without being abused by the outliers.

D357R0Y3RJan 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=soEnfdlv,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-12T18:20:36.702+0000)

You realize Wukong Q is an empowered auto right? And that his E gives him AS.

And I know pantheon doesn't normally do it, but his passive rewards him for autoing.

Voli, Lee, Aatrox, & Olaf all not only AS buffs, but are rewarded for autoing, so how does it not work for them?

Putting was probably a stretch though.

That's the point, riot didn't like health scaling onto abilities not meant to, so thus only autos made it fit more generally without being abused by the outliers.

you realise that it only empowers his Q, while atma used to empower his Q with both crit and AD, and empower his E/R, his R has 440% bonus AD.

Lee doesn't attack, and even if he attacks, his R has 2.0 AD ratio, his Q has nearly 2.0 AD ratio

stacking hp with olaf is trash now anyway, he used to have a built in atma on his W

there is literally like 5 bruisers that feet with item 3748 , if riot regrets to make % hp damage they should just flat out remove Sejuani TahmKench Vladimir Volibear DrMundo

Phoenix Kotori Jan 12, 20161 votes

you realise that it only empowers his Q, while atma used to empower his Q with both crit and AD, and empower his E/R, his R has 480% bonus AD.

It still gives 50 AD as well as the passive/active you realize, and crit wasn't much since he never built more.

Lee doesn't attack, and even if he attacks, his R has 2.0 AD ratio, his Q has nearly 2.0 AD ratio

bad lees don't auto, good lees do because it's what prevents him being drained of energy in extended fights & only reason he doesn't if hes got enough dmg to 100-0 a squishy.

if riot regrets to make % hp damage they should just flat out remove

No they regret letting **any **AD spell scale with it. Specific champions are supposed to be balanced around having it in their kit.

D357R0Y3RJan 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=soEnfdlv,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-12T18:39:00.903+0000)

It still gives 50 AD as well as the passive/active you realize, and crit wasn't much since he never built more.

bad lees don't auto, good lees do because it's what prevents him being drained of energy in extended fights & only reason he doesn't if hes got enough dmg to 100-0 a squishy.

No they regret letting **any **AD spell scale with it. Specific champions are supposed to be balanced around having it in their kit.

doesn't matter anyway, you get +80 damage from titanic hydr on auto, item 3074 will give this damage x3 to lee due to his scaling

crit wasn't much because riot were bad, they should have changed it to an other stat

WoonStruckJan 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

pantheon doesn't auto attack, what the fuck? pantheon used to be press W/E and hit for 70% of your hp then press Q and if you didn't die he would just wait 4 sec to press Q again.

same for wukong, E-Q-R and you die, wukong can't even make use of hydr since his ulti prevents him to attack

the only one of your list that can use it is mundo because of the active, shyvana because she stacks on hit effect, renekton because of his W, vi (but she didn't exist when atma was here she could have been better with the AD ratio on her ulti/Q) and xin.

the other just lost a shit tons of scaling on their abilities

Yeah, but every bruiser was tempted to go Trinity or FMallet back then, and they essentially got 40% crit rate if they opted into trinity. 25% if they didn't. Its why IE was considered an end-game option on any bruiser that was ahead and needed more damage. When GA was on CD, at least. It wasn't recommended, but it was an option.

MatezoideJan 12, 20162 votes

Garen misses crit.

Meep ManJan 12, 20162 votes

They made item 3748 which is Atma's Impaler's baby. I mean, in one corner you guys don't want Tanks to have damage ( TahmKench ) and in the other you do.

Got New GlassesJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=soEnfdlv,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-01-12T16:37:32.195+0000)

They made which is Atma's Impaler's baby. I mean, in one corner you guys don't want Tanks to have damage ( ) and in the other you do.

TahmKench is broken by himself, has nothing to do with atma

Tanks didn't build atma to begin with, tanks were Rammus Nautilus Amumu Chogath Maokai and were built full tank. Volibear was the only one who could make use of it because he had an AS boost. DrMundo mains were rushing warmogue+sunfire+force of nature+visage, you could replace sunfire with atma but i don't remember if it was op or not. flame+sunfire's passive was better i think

LordForrestJan 12, 20161 votes

Are you seriously telling me you never played bruiserplank with an atma's? What about garen? Hell anybody who could benefit from Fratma's or Atmogs?.

KONO RUBICK DAJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Are you seriously telling me you never played bruiserplank with an atma's? What about garen? Hell anybody who could benefit from Fratma's or Atmogs?.

he was talking about TANKS not bruisers

LordForrestJan 12, 20161 votes

eh, i misread that, but there were tanks who could build it. JarvanIV comes to mind.

Also Volibear and DrMundo are fighters, so he wasn't completely correct either.

AhristocatsJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

eh, i misread that, but there were tanks who could build it. comes to mind.

Also and are fighters, so he wasn't completely correct either.

you're right, they are fighters, about j4 he isn't a tank, tanks are champions that have an ok damage in early game while being helpful by their cc in late game. J4 has a small slow and a knock up, however j4 scales well with damage that's why he is a bruiser.

note that atfter the removal of atma, j4 was built full tank to abuse the old passive of his E (was nerfed throughout the season 3/4)

LordForrestJan 12, 20161 votes

Eh, i have always played him tank and he is identified as a tank. Hell, the only damage item i built on him most of the time was item 3071 when it was changed and the only other item i would consider would be item 3748 . Honestly I see him as one of those subcategories of tanks (i.e. juggernauts or immobile mages), he has less lockdown in exchange for higher damage.

D357R0Y3RJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Eh, i have always played him tank and he is identified as a tank. Hell, the only damage item i built on him most of the time was when it was changed and the only other item i would consider would be . Honestly I see him as one of those subcategories of tanks (i.e. juggernauts or immobile mages), he has less lockdown in exchange for higher damage.

higher damage+ tankiness= bruiser

tankiness+cc+low damage= tanks

LordForrestJan 12, 20161 votes

Bruiser one is true, but the tank one isn't. There are a lot of tanks with fairly high damage, just aimed more at sustained damage, but if built damage oriented can burst hard.

Honestly looking at the list of primary tanks, that is all of them.

Alistar Amumu Blitzcrank Chogath Galio JarvanIV Leona Malphite Maokai Nautilus Poppy Rammus Sejuani Shen Singed Sion Zac

Edit- let it be noted that i don't necessarily agree with all of Riot's choices for primary tanks, but my point still stands.

KONO RUBICK DAJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Bruiser one is true, but the tank one isn't. There are a lot of tanks with fairly high damage, just aimed more at sustained damage, but if built damage oriented can burst hard.

Honestly looking at the list of primary tanks, that is all of them.

Edit- let it be noted that i don't necessarily agree with all of Riot's choices for primary tanks, but my point still stands.

all the champ you listed except shen and j4 have a lot of damage in early/mid game while having 0 damage in late game and riot said that tanks are meant to have good damage in early while helping in late game with cc

LordForrestJan 12, 20161 votes

Alistar Tank builds is more focused on his cc, but ap builds are scary.

Amumu His w wrecks late game, yeah it is slow, but if you let him stand next to you, you are going to lose health consistently and coupled with how his E works he is going to have steady damage with bursts.

Blitzcrank See Alistar.

Chogath He eats people, seriously if you think he falls off late game then i don't know what to do for you

Galio You obviously have never seen a good galio, honestly you probably have never seen him period.

Leona I hear her ap builds are hilarious, but i mainly play her as a support tank, so i can't really give you a good answer here, since that build is more reliant on teammates.

Malphite There is a reason his AP build his hated.

Maokai He actually is pretty damaging, or at least he was. Don't know anymore because of the change to item 3025 i can't do my core build on him anymore. ( item 3174 item 3065 ) and i haven't really been able to really play league lately either.

Nautilus Yeah, he is more feared for his lockdown, but he does have a surprising amount of damage, albeit tied to a dot and e spam.

Poppy I can't give you a guarantee, but in my experience, she still has a surprising amount of damage

Rammus Seriously?

Sejuani There was a reason when Cinderhulk and the Gromp buff changes were added she was so feared. (also her damage overtime wasn't nerfed, only the on-hit part of W, albeit it was cut in half.)

Singed If you think Singed doesn't have damage, i don't know what i can do to help you. Though i will admit i feel like he is more of a fighter then a tank.

Sion Fight one with Titanic Hydra or who can get his shield off and come back to me.

Zac Like amumu, sustained steady damage with bursts, albeit not as continuous as amumu's

FrikgeekJan 12, 20161 votes

Well, anyone can have decent damage when they build it. That doesn't mean that Alistar has good damage just because he can go full AP and burst an ADC. Even then he's not as scary as a full AP Annie or lategame Veigar.

It's not like those champions are completely lacking damage but it's only noticable when they're hitting squishies. If you see them hit anyone with a few tank items you'll notice they're lacking damage compared to bruisers(who can still make a dent in the tanks' lifebars)

LordForrestJan 12, 20161 votes

Tanks shouldn't be trying to kill other tanks until the enemies squishes are dead anyway, besides i was just saying that the belief tanks have no damage is stupid.

Also Amumu Poppy Sejuani Sion Zac all have % max health damage in their kit, so tanks aren't really much safer against them, especially if they pick up some penetration somewhere.

And who could forget Chogath true damage ult, if he uses it against a tank, it is going to fuck them up.

MiraweaveJan 12, 20162 votes

Because getting offensive stats by building defense was dumb and nobody wants to go back to the metagolem days except for bruiser mains who abused it.

KONO RUBICK DAJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Because getting offensive stats by building defense was dumb and nobody wants to go back to the metagolem days except for bruiser mains who abused it.

and let's forgot that madred was trash in season 2^^

BastionKrossJan 12, 20161 votes

Because it had crit.

Garen was about the only bruiser that could build it and use that crit effectively since his spin crits; every other bruiser looked at that crit, saw wasted gold, and moved on to the next item most of the time.

Pika310Jan 12, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Because it had crit.

Garen was about the only bruiser that could build it and use that crit effectively since his spin crits; every other bruiser looked at that crit, saw wasted gold, and moved on to the next item most of the time.

However, this is just an excuse. Ghostblade had crit too, but Rito decided to replace it with extra AD instead. They could've just as easily swapped out Atma's for some other stat as well, like maybe pen or something.

Got New GlassesJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

However, this is just an excuse. Ghostblade had crit too, but Rito decided to replace it with extra AD instead. They could've just as easily swapped out Atma's for some other stat as well, like maybe pen or something.

why is this downvoted?

Pika310Jan 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=2eri 6weel,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=soEnfdlv,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2016-01-12T18:32:17.910+0000)

why is this downvoted?

There are players that are stalking my profile and downvoting me. The mods are aware of this and they know who's doing it, they just choose not to act.

BastionKrossJan 12, 20161 votes

You don't think we told them that?

Riot maintained a strict "Well, you know, we'll see" policy on the item. Like there was some guy holding their pets hostage and demanding that Atmas have crit. I think they just wanted to get rid of it for whatever reason, and left the crit there so it became unpopular enough to justify it's removal.

LordForrestJan 12, 20163 votes

Gangplank is crying.

You are also forgetting the days of Fratmas and Atmogs. It didn't matter about the crit so much and besides it wasn't really wasted when they were autoing, they just weren't focusing on it.

SasogwaJan 13, 20161 votes

RIP old AD sion. You will be remembered.

Anu3isIIJan 13, 20161 votes

I prefer this item item 3748 more tho....

D357R0Y3RJan 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I prefer this item more tho....

no problem? they can let titanic hydra while making the passive unique so people don't build atma+titanic hydra

Anu3isIIJan 14, 20161 votes

It isn't about the combination of the items, it is about how good they really are. If I had to choose between them in a normal game, I would choose Titanic Hydra over Atma's in 90% of the scenarios/games.

The active and the stats on Hydra are good and have great synergy, while Atma's has a weird combination of stats, that tend to be "good" in very particular cases.

Unless the enemy team is full AD and I really need high amounts of AD, I would buy Titanic Hydra over Atma's with ease.

If they somehow totally changed Atma's to be a different version of Titanic that gives you some AD at the cost of the active and the on-hit effect, maybe I would build it, but with its old stats, never....