Riven cc dodging is not ok

Rozair·Dec 29, 2016·175 votes·6,576 views

Riven diving though cc and not getting cced because of it is the most broken shit ive ever seen in this entire game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC_i_mHP-xo

142 Comments

Spaceman5pffDec 30, 201655 votes

A bit late to the hate orgy, friend.

This one was cool last week, now it is Ryze's shield.

PokladnicaZlaDec 30, 20161 votes

What's wrong with Ryze's shield now? A bug or?

DeathBot666Dec 30, 20168 votes

Nothing is wrong with it.

People have just decided that since they lost a fight due to that shield its clearly OP and needs to be removed.

vOmvbrawfUDec 30, 20166 votes

Ryze mains have over a 75% win rate top. #balanced

RalanrDec 30, 20161 votes

What's the playrate?

vOmvbrawfUDec 30, 20163 votes

Why are people so fixated on a stat that literally means nothing lol?

DolasaurDec 30, 20163 votes

Your counterarguments for the "mains" aspect are valid. But play rate is an important general indicator, not a specific one (e.g. the "only mains play him" one). Win rate is the same way; it's an indicator, but without all the additional small details Riot has, it's impossible to make fully accurate statements about it.

For example, check out Galio top lane in champion.gg right now. His 50-125 win rate is 100%. Not some measly weak number like 75, 100%. Why is this? Well, his play rate is tiny. champion.gg only has ~600 games of Galio top. And it says 3.33% of his player base has 50-125 games on him. And that's 1/30 of the player base, not necessarily per game played. What does that mean?

Well, you could say "Galio is OP because his experienced win rate is 100%". But I'd say "Well, he probably has 3 people that play him in that experience bracket. They probably only pick him into teams with 5 magic damage dealers (Corki/Kog ADC). His kit and itemization are very effective against such teams. And 5 magic damage dealers is a pretty terrible team composition in general, so his win rate would be high in those circumstances even if he wasn't Galio."

Ryze's play numbers are higher than Galio's, but they're still in the same ballpark. It's quite possible that a large number of the 75% win rate Ryze players are challenger alts who won 90% of their games on the way to challenger and now only have a 60% win rate, or something along those lines.

Having a large play rate increases the reliability of using win rate as a statistic because of the law of large numbers. (The more samples you have, the more likely your empirical evidence is to mirror the hypothetical exact value.)

Mystic ShovelDec 30, 20166 votes

The hate orgy hahahaha. Such an accurate description of the boards :')

Everyday it's something different.

The Letter HDec 30, 20163 votes

This cc cancel doesn't even work on all cc.

#Riven's CC Cancel Only Works On True Knockups, and some pulls/knockbacks.

Dodging the Knockbacks and Pulls is very hard and doesn't work 100% of the time.

P.S. Riven got out of Poppy Dash because it doesn't stun until you get to a wall, if you're stunned against the wall you can't get out of it, BUT you can get out of the dash's knockback. Oh and poppy's W only stops one dash, anyone with two Dashes can get through it easily.

DarkRitualDec 29, 201630 votes

Riot is aware of this and intends to fix the bug. It's just unfortunate it occured during the holiday break when the majority of their staff is out of the office.

DJMason88Dec 30, 20161 votes

And when shes free, makes it worse lol.

Surfer AsheDec 30, 201624 votes

Free week Riven players can't even animation cancel.

Hardly an argument

SithesisLordDec 30, 20164 votes

I mean, i´d be real peachy if free week Riven players could even hit her ult.

FantasySniperDec 30, 201614 votes

Riot: This new champion's pretty cool, guys! Players: We found out that Riven can skip her animations, letting you output 3 times faster than intended. Riot: That's!... Umm... Intentional? Players: We found out Riven can skip the recall animation. Riot: Not intentional! Players: We found out Riven can dodge any CC with her animation canceling. Riot: (No Comment)

I know they can't fix it right away (and that the recall animation cancel wasn't Riven-exclusive, she was just the easiest champion to do it with), but why not just disable her as a late Christmas present until they can?

RexSaurDec 30, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Riot: This new champion's pretty cool, guys! Players: We found out that Riven can skip her animations, letting you output 3 times faster than intended. Riot: That's!... Umm... Intentional? Players: We found out Riven can skip the recall animation. Riot: Not intentional! Players: We found out Riven can dodge any CC with her animation canceling. Riot: (No Comment)

I know they can't fix it right away (and that the recall animation cancel wasn't Riven-exclusive, she was just the easiest champion to do it with), but why not just disable her as a late Christmas present until they can?

Because this is insanely hard to do and only super high elo players can pull it off consistently to the point where it actually makes riven stronger.

And even with that riven is still not as strong as poppy/camille and other S tier top laners.

Stop with the blind riven hate please, this literally doesnt affect you in any way if you're not a challenger or master tier player.

NineTailedMysticDec 30, 201619 votes

Abusing a bug to gain power isn't legitimate, regardless of rank. See: Zed's removal of QW animation cancel.

FantasySniperDec 30, 20163 votes

I'd say you're the one that's blind.

Rank doesn't affect your ability to abuse a bug.

Gregor GysiDec 30, 20164 votes

If the bug is hard to abuse then it obviously does. He said "consistently" and I don't know about you, but I have yet to see a Riven (or any champion with a dash) abuse this more than once in a game.

(but it should obviously get fixed asap)

LatetotheRaceDec 30, 20163 votes

Game skill = elo. Mechanical champion skill = minimal elo change. I've seen some seriously mechanically talented low silvers. They just have literally no idea how to play the game outside of laning phase, so they can't climb past silver.

Gregor GysiDec 30, 20161 votes

I haven't. Granted, my mechanics suck for my elo, but I certainly have never met a silver player who had even remotely the mechanical skill of a mid/high gold player. Mechanical skill is incredibly important unless you play Janna (duh).

FantasySniperDec 31, 20161 votes

Janna actually requires some mechanical skill. She involves timing, and then there's her ult, which is exceptionally difficult to use to intentionally knock someone back in a particular direction. Warwick, Amumu, and Rammus are the most mechanically non-intensive champions in the game.

Gregor GysiJan 2, 20171 votes

Exceptionally difficult? Please, everyone could just first time her in ranked and do fine (at plat and below).

Also, using her ult correctly isn't about mechanics, no matter how you look at it all you have to do mechanically is pressing R.

FantasySniperJan 3, 20171 votes

It's about the positioning. You truly underestimate how difficult and risky it is to place yourself adjacent to an enemy and cast her ultimate with the correct timing (because that cast time is a doozy) to send them exactly where it helps your team.

Gregor GysiJan 3, 20171 votes

Positioning is still not a mechanical skill.

With that being said getting decent ultimates done is still not hard, take a look at my op.gg and keep in mind that I don't play botlane at all unless I get autofilled in support. When I started playing Janna in S6 it was basically my first game with her.

FantasySniperJan 3, 20171 votes

Positioning is a mechanical skill. Attack-move is a necessary mechanic for ADCs. What is attack move? A positioning technique. Lee Sin's ultimate requires positioning, are you saying that Lee's ultimate doesn't require any mechanics? It functions exactly the same as Janna's ultimate with it's knock-back.

FantasySniperDec 31, 20161 votes

Rank doesn't affect your ability to abuse a bug.

What you're saying is that your ability to abuse a bug affects your rank.

Because ability is not a result of rank, rank is a result of ability.

Gregor GysiDec 31, 20161 votes

And a player who has the ability to abuse the bug on a regular basis would not be in silver.

FantasySniperDec 31, 20161 votes

Except that it requires nothing more than knowledge of the bug and a measure of mechanical skill - something that can be found in any elo.

Gregor GysiDec 31, 20161 votes

Said measure of mechanical skill to pull it off on a regular basis can not be found at silver.

FantasySniperDec 31, 20161 votes

That's just being narrow-minded as all hell.

There are players that have the mechanical skill, but none of the strategic skill to succeed. There are players that practice Riven to the ends of the earth, and no doubt can pull it off. There are players that are still climbing (and there is no shortage of people that were plat/diamond who got landed in bronze/silver). There are players that smurf in lower elos.

Gregor GysiJan 2, 20171 votes

There are no discrepancies that huge. If a silver player had diamond mechanics he'd not be silver, period. There may be some sort of bottleneck phenomenon but it doesn't work like that.

Players who are still climbing obviously do not deserve silver, same goes for smurfs. Don't be nit-picky, you know exactly what I meant.

FantasySniperJan 3, 20171 votes

If a silver player had diamond mechanics, it's very likely that they're lacking in some other area necessary to succeed. Be it strategy, knowledge, or the simple willingness to cooperate with their team.

I am not being nit-picky, you're being narrow-minded and refuse to acknowledge the fact that one does not need a high ranking to exploit a bug.

CrettDec 30, 20166 votes

riven hate. is not blind. it is tempered, albeit poorly channeled by the majority.

because, y'see nobody who hates riven really has facts at their disposal when railing against her on the forum; because a lot of player's problems with riven are a matter of philosophy. she's not a poorly designed champ, and she's got a high skill ceiling. she isn't overpowered by any margin. she's got pretty clear weaknesses if you understand her kit, and especially if your champ has the tools to deal with her. all in all she should be a pretty well rounded champ.

but... she... is a goddamned obnoxious monkey. she's really annoying to fight as a lot of champs. that's just about the #1 reason people don't like Riven. you can make mistakes against other champs and lose just as bad as you would riven, but we all know that riven has some very very high tilting power when she can get that ball rolling.

if i had an issue with riven beyond that, it's actually less to do with her being annoying and more to do with the design philosophy behind animation cancelling.

it's a lot like L-cancelling in super smash brothers, another bug that ascended to a fully featured game mechanic; an input that can be made that actually presents no decision or meaningful gameplay to the opponent. it's a binary optimization that doesn't do anything but put a fat artificial gap between players who've practiced it and players who haven't. and it could very well just not be there.

in fact, in fan-made revisions of the games, L-cancelling was made automatic, but was met with extreme backlash from high level players who extensively practiced the mechanics. sound familiar? lmao

the worst part is nothing on riven's kit even tells you about it. it's like they won't address it in any way despite her being balanced around it at this point.

i'm not trying to argue with you or anything i swear.

this is just my perspective on the tsunami of discourse that is the Riven debate.

4th3t0sDec 31, 20161 votes

The big difference here is this level of abuse is exclusive to 1 champion. L-canceling, in your example, was a universal skill.

CrettDec 31, 20161 votes

I hear what you're saying... but that doesn't really make any difference. If Karthus' ult did twice the damage because you typed in the entire Bee Movie script during the channel, it'd be the same thing (in principle, I know that's hyperbole). You either do it right or you don't, which makes no difference to your opponent gameplay wise, and all in all I feel like it's a kind of shallow and artificial way to express skill or mastery.

But yeah, people have spent quite a long time learning all the combos possible. That's why it's in an awkward place with no easy solution. But I can't respect that design

Mod Dj SonaDec 29, 20164 votes

literally any champion with a dash can do this if timed. fizz.. ezreal.. talon. its just an odd mechanic

RalanrDec 29, 201634 votes

So we're ok with her dashing in the anti dash zone?

Tangy CitrusDec 30, 20163 votes

{quoted}

So we're ok with her dashing in the anti dash zone?

Its not as easy as it looks. You dont simply just use the dash, you have to use a series of combo's timed perfectly that few players at only the higher elo's can do consistently. It may be broken, but its not a huge problem unless youre in the high diamond + elo's and riven is more likely to be banned in those elo's regardless.

RozairDec 30, 20169 votes

She litteraly dashes through poppys w. You wanna tell me thats not easy?

Tangy CitrusDec 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

She litteraly dashes through poppys w. You wanna tell me thats not easy?

I play riven, and you dont 'just dash through it'. You have to dash, q, aa for it to work. Sounds simple, but its not because of the small time window you have to pull it off. Not only do you need to do those things, but you have to animation cancel as well- in other words you have to do the fast combo. It gives her a lot of outplay potential against someone like poppy who becomes unkillable mid-late game. Riven beats poppy early game by a long shot. But after the first item poppy starts her journey to becoming unkillable unless you can seriously out play her, ganks, or you get really fed - or you're good with the fast combo and can defeat her w.