Meddler, is it so much to ask for lane bullies to actually have mana costs?

WoonStruck·Dec 17, 2016·99 votes·4,261 views

Take any champion made or reworked in the past 3 or so years. Then compare them to older champs like Wukong, Pantheon, Ahri, Brand, Cho, Fizz, Mao, Malph, Vi, etc.

Notice how almost none of the newer champions have significant mana costs. Most of them can spam away and hope they get lucky without really feeling punished for missing unless it was a retaliation trade.

I don't feel like someone should be able to make it to level 6 literally spamming abilities off CD without going OOM.

130 Comments

Jaygo41Dec 17, 201665 votes

Oh god if Wukong had the mana costs Camille did there would be pitchforks and torches

Irelia BotDec 18, 201614 votes

And if Camille has the mana costs of Wukong she wouldn't be able to do much of anything.

MelledoneusDec 17, 201624 votes

Shen has a more depletable resource than many mana users atm.

Casting E and missing is nearly half your entire energy bar that takes 18 seconds to recharge back to full.

And his laning phase still got nerfed because he happened to show up in the LCS for a bit.

LeetriDec 18, 201613 votes

That's the point of energy. It's a really small pool that allows you to do one or two rotations, but it recharges fast (compared to mana) and your kit has a built-in recharge tool. For mana, unless you invest in mana and mana regen, you have to back once you run out of it.

Energy is a short time limiter, Mana is a long time limiter. Even if a champion has really low mana costs, it adds up over time. It also serves as another balancing lever. If say Camille's Q is too powerful if spammed, they could just make it cost more mana.

MelledoneusDec 18, 20162 votes

It feels wholly unfair that a dueling tank is squishier than some stupid diver that happens to have more mobility, CC, sustain, innate damage, lower cooldowns, and non-existent mana costs.

Camille is definitely over-pumped with stats.

LeetriDec 18, 20163 votes

And yet Shen has double her play rate and a higher win rate. Right now, statistically Shen is a lot better than Camille despite her being "over-pumped with stats". You gotta wait another week or two before you can say for sure if she's actually strong and it's just a "learn2play" issue with her or if she's gonna need some buffs.

Asayake 5150glowDec 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

has a more depletable resource than many mana users atm.

Casting E and missing is nearly half your entire energy bar that takes 18 seconds to recharge back to full.

And his laning phase still got nerfed because he happened to show up in the LCS for a bit.

Try 1v1'ing pretty much any other melee at level 9 with sunfire cape/tailored resist items/maybe titanic. You'll win.

Off Meta EvanDec 18, 201611 votes

Darius Illaoi Renekton Yorick would all like a word with you.

MelledoneusDec 18, 20163 votes

Garen DrMundo Malphite Sion Olaf Poppy Trundle TahmKench have joined the shitshow!

DragonSheaDec 19, 20163 votes

{quoted}

would all like a word with you.

All of them got big dicks 'pect Illaoi but she got tentacle, so either way, prepare ur anus.

Off Meta EvanDec 19, 20162 votes

i think this is defiantly the most interesting response i've gotten on the boards.

dunder killDec 17, 201621 votes

Take any champion made or reworked in the past 3 or so years. Then compare them to older champs

But Riven Renekton ?

Asayake 5150glowDec 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

But ?

Riven's not a lane bully dude.

4th3t0sDec 18, 201626 votes

Both Riven and Renekton were literally the reason elixirs got deleted from the game.

Asayake 5150glowDec 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Both Riven and Renekton were literally the reason elixirs got deleted from the game.

Dafuk is an elixir?

Sorry, I can't remember.

Plus, Riven isn't a lane bully, she's a strong duelist. It's like the opposite of Caitlyn, but not as oppressive.

dominusxDec 18, 201610 votes

you could lvl1 start with a potion that gave ad and hp. all you had to do is get lvl 2 do a big trade get lvl 3 and then pop potion and go all in. 75% chance of first blood

SwarovskoDec 17, 201620 votes

I actually don't get it why Gnar has no mana costs as a ranged top lane champion, that's just stupid. But maybe it's just me.

JubianceDec 18, 20163 votes

Riot said during his development, gnar cant control his form really as eventually you go mega and you revert and either situation may not be the best time, they said they compensated for this by giving him no mana.

Chembaron YamadaDec 18, 20166 votes

Tbh I think the main reason they didn't give him mana was the same like the reason they gave no mana for Kled: Just too many bars to track at the same time (your health bar, rage/courage bar and mana).

crippler38Dec 18, 20162 votes

what is this madness, t-three resource bars!?

HOW CAN I MANAGE TO LOOK AT THREE LINES ON MY SCREEN hoooooooooow

in all seriousness though that makes sense, some people can't manage more than the mana, hp, and cooldowns most characters have.

Ariel the CruelDec 19, 20163 votes

Annie Jhin Yo.

FızzDec 18, 20162 votes

mana doesn't make sense for gnar. it's so akward gnar with mana

MatezoideDec 17, 201616 votes

Mana costs are a joke in this game anyway.

MatakeDec 18, 20163 votes

Ability mana costs and cool-down timers are essential to counter-play.

Hinagiku33Dec 18, 20165 votes

I think he meant that games like DOTA 2 have actual mana costs where any of your abilities can easily take 1/4 of your mana bar in the early game. By comparison, League's mana costs are exceptionally low and allow pretty much every champ to use abilities a lot more frequently.

AhristocatsDec 19, 20163 votes

Chogath

outdated champions still have actual mana cost, they just get reduced during reworks/work, ie: the most recent one is fizz's E mana cost going from 130 to 80 or something like that

now inb4 "cho has his passive" his passive gives him like 4 mana for each minions, he will still go oom if he spams his spell like camille

MatezoideDec 19, 20162 votes

Exactly. Riot doesn't want champions to be actually gated by Mana anymore, been like that for a very long time now. Even the newer releases with fairly high costs are still far lower than older champions.

Poppy and Sion had incredibly crippling mana costs as well, but then they got reworked. Warwick has high costs as well, and he is getting a rework.

Asayake 5150glowDec 17, 20167 votes

*Psst Renekton

Sahn UzalDec 17, 201642 votes

Renekton is designed to be an amazing lanebully and that's the only thing he's good at. I seriously don't mind getting shit on by a Renekton in lane because I know his kit makes the trade off of having an awful lategame.

KoKobotoDec 18, 201613 votes

tbh he isn't even that great of a lane bully anymore :/ or maybe all the Renektons I play with or against stink

48983507DEL1Dec 18, 20168 votes

His issue is all the new champions have particular things in their kits that they can exploit over Renekton.

Poppy gets too tanky to deal with Renekton's shit.

Fiora can harass Renekton while outscaling him.

Darius has newfound sustain that makes him difficult to poke out of lane.

Yasuo can straight-up outdamage Renekton in an extended trade by dashing through minions.

Illaoi just has to land her E and she'll automatically win the trade.

Also, keep in mind that the most recent Top Lane Meta involved mostly ranged, safe, outscaling lane bullies like Kennen and Jayce, making Renekton a pretty poor pick in comparison.

StrawberrycocoaDec 18, 20166 votes

It boggles my mind how some older champions can still lose 1/3 of their mana in early game to abilities while newer ones use maybe 20 mana for the same general amount of damage.

I QDec 18, 20162 votes

AurelionSol Ekko Azir TahmKench Braum Have pretty high mana costs. Also maybe Bard

DarkRitualDec 18, 20167 votes

Bard only goes OOM if you need to keep Shrines up for an adc who can't dodge.

Brain Errör 404Dec 18, 20168 votes

Sorry, it's hard to dodge this bitch Caitlyn that keep throwing coconuts from the tree at the back of my head while I Vayne only have a wet noodle to try and reach her with.

Hinagiku33Dec 18, 20163 votes

Sivir but the cupcakes she keeps putting out are so delicious.

KoKobotoDec 18, 20162 votes

Rito believes that mana costs are dumb and shouldn't be something players think about, or at least something along those lines, I remember it in a patch discussion video on youtube they used to do or something. They don't like balancing champions around mana costs and would rather balance them around their kits or something (this is me making stuff up).

I noticed the trend when Jhin came out and his ability to spam Q constantly. I literally said out loud "does this guy have any mana costs?" lol

ModAcademy KaynDec 18, 20164 votes

They specifically nerfed his Q due to it being spammable in lane though?

Existential BardDec 18, 20162 votes

Umm kindred mana costs Umm illaoi mana costs Umm ivern mana costs

TheCheekySneakDec 18, 20163 votes

I wouldn't exactly call Kindred or Ivern lane bullies, and Illaoi is sorta gated in terms of raw bullying ability by her immobility. Sure, she can be pretty brutal up close but that's sorta what she's balanced around being a juggernaut and all.

Asayake 5150glowDec 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't exactly call Kindred or Ivern lane bullies, and Illaoi is sorta gated in terms of raw bullying ability by her immobility. Sure, she can be pretty brutal up close but that's sorta what she's balanced around being a juggernaut and all.

Except she has the most range out of all the juggernauts.

Lacks a hard engage or crowd control for it, but taking 30-50% of ur health from mage range with her E is pretty bs if she manages to hit it.

The FastDec 18, 20162 votes

I mean, its a weaker blitzcrank hook, and she has less ability to catch someone with it because of her immobility and E projectile speed.

Asayake 5150glowDec 19, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Knight Kore,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sjneIFjw,comment-id=0011000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-18T17:22:55.778+0000)

I mean, its a weaker blitzcrank hook, and she has less ability to catch someone with it because of her immobility and E projectile speed.

Yeah, but Blitzcrank is essentially a hook bot + 1 melee range knock up and some burst. And he doesn't heal off hitting someone, and he possibly puts himself at risk by using it if he's alone and cant follow up.

Existential BardDec 19, 20162 votes

Illaoi only heals for 5%. It's negligible

The FastDec 21, 20161 votes

If Illaoi can't land an E, her damage is MASSIVELY reduced. It is the bread and butter of her kit. Even in a 5 man ult, if you miss your E, at 600 damage Qs, you've just lost out on 600-3000 damage across their team, plus another 500-1000 to the person you E'd. The second Illaoi misses her E in lane or in skirmish you can dick her.

The thing about blitz hook is if he hits you, he takes you to where he hooked. If Illaoi hooks you, she CANNOT kill you from that hook unless she hits YOU after she's hit her E. Getting hit by an Illaoi E is more annoying, and but it is, usually, not a death sentence.

Asayake 5150glowDec 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Knight Kore,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sjneIFjw,comment-id=001100000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-12-21T14:17:08.577+0000)

If Illaoi can't land an E, her damage is MASSIVELY reduced. It is the bread and butter of her kit. Even in a 5 man ult, if you miss your E, at 600 damage Qs, you've just lost out on 600-3000 damage across their team, plus another 500-1000 to the person you E'd. The second Illaoi misses her E in lane or in skirmish you can dick her.

The thing about blitz hook is if he hits you, he takes you to where he hooked. If Illaoi hooks you, she CANNOT kill you from that hook unless she hits YOU after she's hit her E. Getting hit by an Illaoi E is more annoying, and but it is, usually, not a death sentence.

Except she can hold it until it's guaranteed.

Illaoi's E is less of a hook, but more of a damage amplifier which still works even if she can't hit her actual target, as well as a heavy slow once she kills the spirit (assuming she has enough tentacles nearby to kill it)

The FastDec 21, 20161 votes

How can illaoi hold the hook until its guaranteed? If the hook is guaranteed, then the enemy elected to get in her face, while her E was still up, in which case, they are playing against the champion incorrectly are are going to be punished. In lane, you just treat Illaoi like blitzcrank, and dance around her instead of ever going for a face-first hard engage, similar as to how you deal with a fed darius.

The ability itself isn't technically a hook ability, but the dynamics of it are more or less the same.

I mean, you said it best, Illaoi has the most range out of the juggernauts, however cheeky is also correct in that she is the least mobile juggernaut, and these two things counterbalance one another. They made her with anti-synergy to mobility, because the more you chase, and move away from where you were before, the weaker you get because you lose your tentacles.

Existential BardDec 19, 20162 votes

The OP said take ANY champion made or reworked in the last 3 years