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Want to know why AP items suck right now?

Kloqdq··42 votes·3,691 views

Look at the stat lines. Almost no AP item really stands out to be a different and specialized option. Mostly every AP item sticks to roughly the same stat line with many having either powerful or shit effects. If I want tankiness and damage then all the items that do that are just about the same in stat lines it just comes down to which one is currently the best and not which one works the best for this situation.

item 3102 70 AP 60 MR 10% CDR

item 3157 75 AP 45 Armor 10% CDR

item 3027 300 HP 300 Mana 60 AP

item 3030 300 HP 400 Mana 80 AP

item 3116 300 HP 75 AP

item 3001 350 HP 300 Mana 55 MR 10% CDR

All these are good items for getting tankier but when you look at their stat lines they are almost identical with only slight and I mean very slight changes. It then becomes a game of which passive/active is the strongest. Stat lines matter just as much as what the actives and passives Riot. The damage items are the same. All these items give 60-80 AP typically 300 HP and 300 Mana with 10% CDR thrown in here an their. Only Zhonya's and Banshee's give a different stat in Armor and Mr but they both give 10% cdr with only 5 AP difference!!!

No wonder mages have almost the 100% same build paths almost every game. The items vary so little that you are just going to buy the best one at the moment because their passives/actives are all the items are at the moment.

EDIT: I want to add in that I don't think stat lines are the only issue. The effects of the items also are causing a lot of issues but that has so many issues within its it deserves it's own post. Why is Zhyona's always great? The active. Why does every mage need a morello pretty much, need the mana. This isn't just one sole reason and I should have made that clear in the first place. I am just talking about stats because they are a large part of the problem but no the only issue.

129 Comments

Penns60 votes

im more concerned about all of them having like 60-80 AP

blue doesnt give ap anymore, items got nerfed like zhonyas from 100, in season 5 120, to 70, no one builds Rabadons yet 100% ap scaling is "a lot" for ap champs while an auto attack is 100% ad scaling lel

Kloqdq23 votes

I mean they just sort of put every item on the same level and then left it. Item stats need to vary to fill in roles. Rylai's is trash for example because every stat including the passive suck. Rod, Mask and most of the hextech weapons all have the same stat line but what happens is just a merry go round of which passive or active is better.

I would like to see more AP items hit 100+ while other items get a fairer spread of stats to make them more valuable.

item 3053 item 3156 give you burst protection but two types item 3812 item 3153 item 3072 all give you life steal but offer you different options and strengths.

Most have a good variety of stat lines that play up their special need. Death's Dance gives you better dueling, Botrk gives you better tank shred, Bloodthrister gives you overshielding for protection. Gage gives you anti-burst power while Maw gives you a stronger AP resistance to their burst.

That's just an example of how AP items should be. Their stats should play to their niche roles and help. Luden's is about upping burst and giving AoE yet it is only slightly above others in AP. Maybe we need more items or we need to refine the current ones only (Probably both). Just something needs to be done rather than let the items be to rot.

Escheton3 votes

{quoted}

im more concerned about all of them having like 60-80 AP

blue doesnt give ap anymore, items got nerfed like zhonyas from 100, in season 5 120, to 70, no one builds Rabadons yet 100% ap scaling is "a lot" for ap champs while an auto attack is 100% ad scaling lel

Possibly 250% AD scaling with IE and full crit come late game.

SweedishGunner2 votes

RIP 1000AP Karthus.

Paroe2 votes

{quoted}

RIP 1000AP Karthus.

item 3165 item 3040 item 3027 item 3089 item 3285 item 3135 + runes = 1000AP. Sad thing is, theres no way to get 1000AP with 40% CDR unless you have scaling runes, baron, fire drakes, AND a pot.

2Charmnot2Charm2 votes

Only two champs i remember seeing geting deathcap at all is Orianna and Veigar . Can't recall the last time i seen any other ap champion get this item.

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

I mean, ADCs build like, 2-3 items with decent AD. IE/ER has 70. Then there's two AS/Crit items with 0 AD, plus boots as well. LDR/Mortal have 50, and now you have one item left. GA is 40, Maw is 50, Scimitar is 65. Average is about 50 more AD from a last item. Overall that's 170, plus about 100 from level 18 base stats/runes/masteries. Overall, 270. If you tried to stack the highest AD items in the game and don't buy boots, you'd get about 500 from IE/ER/BT/Death's Dance/Scimitar/Ghostblade, which is a shitty build but is around the most you could even try to stack.

A mage build can hit that value typically hit that 270 value in 3-4 items (depending on how much AP you're stacking). Morello gives 100. Every other mage item that isn't Luden's, Death Cap, or ROA starts with 70-80 AP. Averaging it at 75, you're getting 250 at 3 items. Useless boots make 4, Void Staff probably makes 5 at 330 AP, and Death Cap puts that over 600, without accounting for runes or masteries.

So a fairly standard mage build averages over 600 AP at full build, while ADC builds typically hit around 270. So yes, there is a fantastic reason why 100% AP scalings are a lot. AD and AP really cannot be compared in terms of stats to damage, because there are so many variables within them. ADCs have faster attacks and crit, APs have more AoE and CC, and both have wide varieties of damage sources between champions in the class, from Cassio who rapid-fire attacks like an ADC, to Corki who spellcasts like a mage.

Penns2 votes

I was more talking about casters than adcs tho. Technically 1% crit is 1% AD, so with their 270 AD, 70-80% crit gives them around 200+ extra AD, not even counting the "AD increase" from IE.

Deathcap is the only item that really gives you a lot of ap at this point, before that AD casters will probably have more AD than you have AP with items like item 1400 item 3147 item 3142 item 3812 item 3156 ...

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

Morellonomicon, the item that pretty much every mage buys and is of equal price or cheaper than all the items listed except the jungle item, gives 100 AP. That raw AP beats the raw AD of any AD item. Stacked RoA and Luden's also give 100 AP, and very few AD items give more than the 70-80 AP that most mage items have. AD casters absolutely lose to AP casters in terms of raw stats totals, which is why they typically end up with higher scalings.

Zavion5 votes

You can't measure anything by RAW AP compared to RAW AD. You have to measure it by the amount of power that it gives; i.e the scaling ratios on abilities and basic attacks.

It Hertz When IP2 votes

{quoted}

while an auto attack is 100% ad scaling lel

item 3070 Kalista item 3070

WoonStruck25 votes

Also, you barely get more of your main offensive stat than ADs do...and your scalings are lower than AD scalings.

Unless Deathcap becomes a reasonable purchases again, that's an issue.

Linna Excel22 votes

Many ADCs rush item 3031 No mages rush item 3089, IE's closest AP equivalent.

DrCyanide2 votes

Deathcap is so snowball reliant to complete that it's basically been replaced by Mejais.

Linna Excel7 votes

I think this is a good point because it just reinforces the issue. Non-lethality ADCs pretty much need IE as the first or second finished item. Depends if you are going to sit on the BF sword and finish your shiv first or not. IE is good enough not only to be purchased on its own, but to also be rushed.

Deathcap, despite having a similar damage amp, is never rushed. The AP rush item is item 3165, which gives AP, Mana, CDR, and conditional grievous and mana recovery but no damage amp. I think that alone should be the biggest clue that AP in relation to AD is a terrible stat in terms of dealing damage. If that weren't the case deathcap, which gives you 162 AP if you rush it first, would be much more popular. IE only gives you 250% AA damage 20% of the time in comparison, yet it is a commonly rushed item.

So my answer to the OP is AP items suck right now because AP itself sucks right now.

IGotScuttleCrabs5 votes

AD is great because every time you buy is like yay I got more of the stats I want plus a passive and this item just made my other items better. The stats just keep multiplying.

Meanwhile AP is just “k got more flat AP and another passive”. I feel AP could benefit from more scaling either through items or base stats.

Champion Skin3 votes

IE is good enough not only to be purchased on its own, but to also be rushed.

IE will pretty much always be a better rush item than Deathcap (unless some huge changes happen)

IE gives 20% crit and makes crits do +50% AD damage (basically AD multiplier for AA's) Deathcap increase AP by 35% (AP multiplier)

BUT there is a huge difference.... base AP is 0 (and Deathcap doesn't affect base damage on abilities) while all champions have base AD this makes IE way better early on

The fact that Deathcap doesn't give mana that can be worked around (like the time when Leblanc was rushing item 3146 which gives no mana)

Thilmer2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=shJMWBMI,comment-id=00020001000000000001,timestamp=2017-09-22T06:56:04.423+0000)

The fact that Deathcap doesn't give mana that can be worked around

You know, one thing that bothers me inmensely is that Deathcap is the only "expensive" ítem in the game that only gives one stat, when any other 3000 gold ítem gives at least two stats (or three).

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

That's a really awkward argument.

ADCs are based around scaling into the late game. A lot of ADCs rush BF Sword for the raw AD, and then either finish IE or build their first Zeal item. The thing is, until they reach 2 items, they're going to be pretty much useless whether they have IE or not. Having just an IE is pretty much useless, but there's no better AD item to rush early on to get an early power spike while still getting stats that work later. Mages, on the other hand, have Morellonomicon. 100 AP, 20% CDR, and mana. Basically everything a mage needs early on. They don't have crit to build early to scale for later. Building a first item Death Cap is complete idiocy. The item is fantastic as a 4th/5th major item. You can pretty much double your AP late-game with the 120 AP and the 35% extra AP overall. As a first item, you're missing out on CDR and mana just to get an expensive item that scales later into the game when you get more items. If ADCs had an item as efficient as Morello, where they get everything they need (probably AD, AS, and crit) early on, to get essentially a one-item spike, they would probably build it. But they don't, so they build items that will be useful later into the game when they will be useful.

TL;DR Do you really want an ADC item that is as efficient early as Morellonomicon? Because I don't think you understand why Death Cap isn't rushed.

Paroe20 votes

@thread item 3285 = -20AP +200g item 3116 = - 25AP -200GP -800g item 3157 = -30AP -600g item 3027 = -20AP -300g

All told we lost over 100AP in base stats total and our build paths became a LOT more generalized. These arent even the only items nerfed...

One of riots big things was that they wanted mages to be "mid game" but then didnt actually give them the ability to scale into the late-game damage wise and buffed AD options.

The whole "MAGES HAVE 3000HP LOLWTF!" Was a result of MUCH lower AP in general and health items being added to compensate so mages wouldnt simply be deleted in the late game. tbh the base AP amount for items should be 80, the upper spectrum should be 120, and all AP items above 100AP should have something which increases damage where all AP items below 100AP should have some form of utility.

With that being said.... item 3003 = 120AP item 3152 = 80AP item 3115 = 100AP item 3041 = does not lose AP at max stacks (But max stacks increased) item 3157 = 80AP item 3027 = 80AP item 3151 = 100AP item 3285 = 120AP item 3170 = 80AP and added to the rift.

Further, ALL AP ITEMS should be in the 3200~2800g mark. Rabadans should be 3200 for example... You would do this by reducing the combine cost across the boar for AP items. ... Marksman items, likewise, need to be more expensive. If riot wants mages to be mid-game (and they do) their items need to be cheaper than marksmen items. Just like tanks who riot wants to reach their peak effectiveness at 3 items, those items need to be just as good as they are now but CHEAPER.

TyrekGoldenspear7 votes

It's pretty telling that as a Mage that is against a full AD team I only got item 3157 to build.

So I sneak in a item 3742 since I won't be autoing anyway and they can't catch me Don't kill me I build it fairly infrequently

Kloqdq2 votes

I included Abyssal Mask no problem

SnugglePuggle947 votes

Not to mention AP has been nerfed time and time again ever since the marksmen rework how long ago. Riot is so biased against AP it's ridiculous.

Skorch6 votes

You mean they all give AP? And give secondary stats for Health, MR, and Armor? Seems pretty diverse per situation for me. Not even taking passives/actives into the situation.

Are you telling me you want one that gives 100AP with like 10 Armor, or 10 AP and 500 health? Because those arent diverse mage items anymore. The Armor on the AP item would do nothing. And the other would be used by tanks not mages. And they cant give a lot of both without the cost being insane.

As well as you buy items for the passives and actives. Not the stats. Thats like saying the statlines of item 3085 item 3094 and item 3087 are very different. Which its not. Ones for Range, ones for clear, and ones for flat damage.

Or on tanks: item 3065 item 3001 item 3194 Have insanely similar stats, BUT, ones for healing, ones for increased magic damage, and ones for fighting Cassiopeia /Ryze etc.

The issue arent their stats are the same. AP itemization have 2 very different issues... well sort of 3.

A. The actives and passives arent distinguished enough. item 3027 is for pure stats. item 3116 item 3030 are both slows but one gives mana.

The Actives and Passives simply arent different enough to warrant some purchases. Some have similar effects but one is usually better.

Also items like item 3089 need something else to them to get them bought more.

B. The itemization is god awful. Everyone knows this. AP items just dont have enough component items, as such build path is a big factor in items. For instance thats another reason why item 3089 isnt bought.

C. Well sort of your point. It isnt EXACTLY stat lines, but rather an over abundance of CDR and Mana in AP items. After 3 or so normal items Mages will start not running out of Mana, and by the end of the game its near impossible to run out. Same with CDR. SO MANY items grant it that there are no items you pick BECAUSE they have high CDR.

A big gamebreaker of this is item 3165 I dont know if they are honoring Morello, but this item just has NO flaws, lots of Mana, plenty of AP, Plenty of CDR, AND grievous wounds, An EXCELLENT build path, and not too bad of a cost as such. No WONDER every mage in the game is building it.

Kloqdq2 votes

You mean they all give AP? And give secondary stats for Health, MR, and Armor? Seems pretty diverse per situation for me. Not even taking passives/actives into the situation.

You clearly misunderstood. The problem is all the items have the exact same stat line almost beat for beat. There is very minor, minor differences in the stat lines and that creates the current issue of items being about "which one is the strongest" rather than "which one is the strongest here". This key difference is why you see little to no variety in games. A lot of items share this issue. If you want a tank item than focus the stat line to reflect it's desire purpose. Don't just mirror another items stats and change it with 100 hp or mana here maybe some cdr and call it a day. The passives/actives hold all the weight.

Are you telling me you want one that gives 100AP with like 10 Armor, or 10 AP and 500 health? Because those arent diverse mage items anymore. The Armor on the AP item would do nothing. And the other would be used by tanks not mages. And they cant give a lot of both without the cost being insane.

This point makes no sense. Why would I want 100 AP with 10 Armor? 10 AP with 500 Health? Here is an example of a better stat line taking two items that function very similarly and trying to make them function differently

item 3030 and item 3027 These items function almost the same with only the actives and passives changing them slightly (and they still kind of do the same thing mind you).

GLP 300 HP 400 Mana 80 AP

Rod 300 HP (500 HP) 300 Mana (400 HP) 60 AP (100 AP)

GLP and Rod are both tankier items that gear more towards mana with one stacking more hp and ap while the other has a slow. On paper that's fine but when you look at the stat lines they function almost the same. A good way to fix this is push GLP maybe towards something like; 500 HP 200 Mana 70 AP Now it's tankier, and allows you to make more out of the passive mana gain. You are taking this if you are a battle mage and are going to be in more of the thick of it. For Rod it could focus on more of a heavy mana pool. 200 HP (400 HP) 400 Mana (500 Mana) 60 AP (100 AP) Now this item is better at scaling and grants the user a better mana pool. Since it also grants more ability power you want to take this when you are going to be in the chaining more spells and feel you don't need the defensive stuff of GLP.

This is just a small example but it shows that small changes can improve items in their roles and offer the player a chance to chose what item they may need or want based on just stats alone. Altering gold, build paths, passive/active numbers, etc all help to diversify what mages are building and add choice. The core of what I want here.

As well as you buy items for the passives and actives. Not the stats. Thats like saying the statlines of and are very different. Which its not. Ones for Range, ones for clear, and ones for flat damage.

You are right, but I did not say that was good either. Hurricane for example shouldn't be crit and focus on it's AS and it's AoE attacking like it used to. Making items have a niche or more refined niche doesn't just end at stat lines but it does play a large part. AP items for the most part all have the same stat line while also having issues with gold, passives/actives, etc. Stats are just an issue that hasn't been mentioned before and I wanted to make it clear.

Commenting on your 3 points,

A. You are right, this is apart of the problem. I didn't touch on it just because frankly many others have already talked about this. I don't like beating a dead horse and everyone knows the passives/actives on AP items are pretty shit and not different enough. Why get Rylai's over GLP when GLP gives you everything Rylai's does but way more and does the same job just better.

B. Gold is trash too. I agree. AD items not only have a lot of good build paths but some are criminally cheap. COUGHitem 3094item 3087item 3085item 3046 COUGH

C. CDR is a large scale issue with the game. Tank, Support, Mages, hell even ADCs all can get 40% and way more in a typical build and that's an issue that needs to be solved on the large scale rather than just within Mage items. I think HP and Mana have been massively overused in Mage items as well. They are there to basically do 2 things.

  1. HP is just trying to be like lifesteal. That's basically all it is. Mages can't have functional lifesteal so we'll just give them the next best thing, HP.
  2. Mana was given to make up for the lost of AP. Simple as that. CDR is typically slapped onto item for the same reason and sometimes on the mana item as well. Massive issue with the core gameplay there.

Touching on your point about Morello, the item is waaaaay to good. IF you don't build it you are basically fucking yourself over.

At the end of the day I just want to bring up another issue with AP items so when Riot goes to them, they don't forget to tune those and refine each items role better. Stat lines do play a part in that and maybe I worded it poorly in the post but the idea is, fix stat lines across the board and make items have a better niche purpose. You already see this in AD items all over the place.

Vekkna4 votes

It is a problem that the stats are the same, especially when compared to AD itemization that is clearly superior as a final item, as a component, or in the build path. Here are some stat conversions based on gold cost:

item 3147 85 AP, 10 mpen, 10% CDR, sweeper, and modified Lich Bane proc

item 3814 85 AP, 10 mpen

item 3153 70 AP, 25% aspd, 8% current hp on spell hit, heal on hit, MS active

item 1412 90 AP, 10% CDR

item 3022 50 AP, 700 hp, stronger slow than Rylai's

item 3078 40 AP, no other change

item 3071 60 AP, MR shred

item 3812 125 AP, change "physical" to "magic"

item 3072 125 AP, replace life steal with larger out-of-combat shield

item 3074 125 AP, replace Crescent and Cleave with Echo

item 3156 80 AP, physical shield proc

Now for the reverse:

item 3116 48 AD, no other change

item 3165 65 AD, no other change

item 3157 45 AD, no other change

item 3151 55 AD, 18 lethality, spell burn

item 3285 65 AD, no other change

item 3152 38 AD, no other change

item 3030 50 AD, no other change

item 3089 75 AD, no other change

item 3102 45 AD, no other change

What does it mean?

Overall, the AD-to-AP conversions fill a lot of gaps that existing AP items do not fill. Many are unequivocally stronger than anything an AP can buy, and several others create strong rush items for champs that lack one.

The AP-to-AD conversions are mostly outclassed by existing AD items. The AD Liandry's is the only clear standout item, while Morello would have a strong niche. The Catalyst items would fill a niche for champs like Voli and Poppy.

The primary takeaway is that AP items are ridiculously slot-inefficient. And you can't really blame that on Deathcap. Even if you subtract 35% of the AP from these AD-to-AP conversions without changing the cost, you still end up with amazing items, like a 63 AP Duskblade or 92 AP Death's Dance. Who in their right mind wouldn't build those over Protobelt and Luden's?

DragonShea6 votes

Why AP items suck.

  1. Lower AP on them
  2. lack of diversity
  3. Ranged champs now getting a small amount of MR per LV.
SB Arneeman5 votes

I feel like AD itemization gets the bonus effects for free while AP sacrifice damage for it. Statikk gives free waveclear, PD damage reduction. Additionally, AD can go crit, pen, or on-hit while AP is forced to build pen to deal proper dmg.

Kloqdq4 votes

Crit in general had so many buffs and didn't get draw backs. Crit items along with support and some tank items need some hits to bring them back in line but that's a post for another day.

I consider AP items to be jack-of-all-trades right now. They give you a little of everything but now of them really dive into one aspect and highlight it. That's why AP itemization is not only bad, but boring.

Leonerdo4 votes

Apologies for the low-effort comment, but my first thought was "Well, of course they're all similar when you take out the UNIQUE actives and passives." It's kinda hard to take any of this seriously when people aren't even mentioning HALF of what AP items have to offer.

Kloqdq2 votes

For an example of this being done right,

item 3156 and item 3053

They are made for different classes but the core concept of them is one is better against AP burst, has built in MR, while the other is just burst in general, has HP. They are both designed for burst protection but they the stat lines help highlight their roles in burst protection with their passives further pushing that.

When you look at something like Rylais and GLP and you can see GLP just having a far better stat line while also covering the same roles as Rylais. Yes actives and passives determine this majority of the time but that doesn't mean the stat lines don't matter.

I didn't touch on those parts of items because it has already been mentioned a dozen times by others. Instead I took to a single aspect that was also plagues AP items. Even the damage items are like this with their stat lines and there just isn't variety.

sobi9994 votes

This has been emphasised so much and riot has yet to give a justification for it.

Thilmer3 votes

AP ítems are not bad by themself.

AP ítems are bad because we compare them to AD ítems, that are blatantly overpowered, with high stats and overloaded with passives.

Let's no forget that if AD and AP have two versions of an ítem, the AP version is usually shit while the AD version is something awesome that people rush: item 3285 VS item 3087

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Don't forget riot gutted most of their items in the mage 'update'.

Kloqdq1 votes

Correction, they added stats that they didn't need to make up for the lost of others. The items should roughly land in the same amount of gold efficient but they are a lot less focused.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Not nearly enough to make up for it; total AP dropped, cdr was already excessively plentiful, mana regeneration was all but removed, durability & sustainability also nerfed. Mages used to have some variety in how you could play them, you could build them to have spamable weak attacks, high power long cooldown attacks, add extra utility, and some mix inbetween. Now only one path is even viable because all the alternatives are so weak in comparison, almost regardless of which mage is played.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-69-notes

Eedat2 votes

They don't suck. They're just boring.

Kloqdq8 votes

I do agree they are boring but when half the items basically offer you nothing special compared to others and it just becomes a game of, "these are the best items and everything else is worthless' I would say they suck. It's a hard mix of a bunch of issues.

Yosuke Apperu2 votes

After ten minutes, ROA is 500hp, 400 mana, and 100ap. Waiting isn't exactly ideal but just posting an item's starting stats when it's passive is for it to scale makes it seem weaker than it is. Yes AP Items need work, but I feel like rod of ages is fine how it is.

DeathBurst2 votes

Look at the stat lines. Almost no AP item really stands out to be a different and specialized option.

What, what, what?! You've got that all upside-down. Of course Items need similar stat line if you want to make them very specialized. If you want to have the focus on what makes them different, the passive/active unique effect, you need them to have the same stats, so that you actually choose which one you want precisely for the effect, not the stats.

Kloqdq2 votes

You are right, it's a part of the issue. However, when almost every AP item gives you HP, Mana, AP and sometimes CDR, that isn't good itemization. You should be making choices based on both stats and their effects. Relaying on just effects leads to support item and relaying on just stats leads to marksman items.

You need to have a mix of strong stats and effectives to really highlight items strengths and weaknesses and place them into roles.

Keepe2 votes

A huge part of the issue is that, for example with Crystal Scepter, the boards would not shut the heck up about it being so powerful. Same with many others.

Personally, I miss when Athene's was a Mid Lane item. Now Karthus has a quote he never uses anymore. D=

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

I'm pretty sure what happened is mages got huge base damage boosts to compensate, then they went bot lane as supports and got their base damages nerfed, and now they're where they are now.

I think. Tbh mages still seem to burst quite hard in my games

Kloqdq2 votes

It was a series of changes. A big one was mana changes that made it mandatory to build morello and sometimes rod. AP was nerfed because it was strong but then we gave people MR pre-level and it hurt everyone. Then mages started showing up bot and we had to hit them so they didn't just steamroll bot lane and that hurt mid lane. So now we got the sad state of mages and their really shitty items.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

{quoted}

It was a series of changes. A big one was mana changes that made it mandatory to build morello and sometimes rod. AP was nerfed because it was strong but then we gave people MR pre-level and it hurt everyone. Then mages started showing up bot and we had to hit them so they didn't just steamroll bot lane and that hurt mid lane. So now we got the sad state of mages and their really shitty items.

Uh, Morello's isn't mandatory on most mages, it's just really, really, good. And mages going bot and giving ranged scaling mr happened in that order, not the one you said.

Kloqdq2 votes

If you don't get morello you are basically shooting yourself in the foot :/

And mages going bot and giving ranged scaling mr happened in that order, not the one you said.

I mean you get the point XD

xelaker1 votes

I mean... the mages kits are supposed to be the varied and interesting part...and they are.

Kloqdq2 votes

Items are also a part of this. Kits and items go hand in hand and when one is lacking, the other suffers. See Marksmans. The kits bleed into one another and the items carry all the weight and thus it becomes lackluster when playing that class. You are right about mages kits being good but items are far from helping hold them up.

Likiung1 votes

Man i feel you, having all of these actives and scaling items are just way too much work, they should be designed more intuitively like an infinity edge :D. In all seriousness i think ap items are fine and bring a lot to the table compared to the lackluster effects of AD items. I also see in another post you said "Item stats need to vary to fill in roles" while you do no grouping for Banshees and Zhonyas for your armor and mr items, now lifesteal was never truly meant for mages(dont even get me started on gunblade) you have an alternative with heavy mana sustain from Morellonomicon(mana sustain and counters lifesteal), Seraphs Embrace(manashield, mana sustain, and heaps of ap and mana), and rod of ages(high health and mana scaling).These 3 items give you sustain and diffrent trade off's in more diverse ways than the lifesteal items you have stated such as rod of ages scaling up to 150% gold efficiency! Now i may be wrong because this is coming from an ADC main but i would love to see more thoughts on this because i see most ap items as very role filling for their own purposes and very unique at the same time.

Kloqdq2 votes

I think the main issue is the items blend to much together and start to bleed into, they all give you the same thing, which one is the best. It's an issue that happens in the game all the item and it does cause issues with how effective itemization is. I think AP items suffer this the most because almost every item has the same AP and Mana, normally the same HP and then 10 CDR. That's the standard and I if I go off into an item like Rylai's I am typically super hurt because GLP was better. This whole argument extends to the passives and actives a lot but right now AP suffer from two issues in that regard

Jack of all trades Always good

Most ap items are the jack of all trades. GLP for example gives you a little of everything but doesn't really master one thing. On the other hand you also have something like Morello which is the best AP hands down because it gives you everything you could want and more.

The second issue is Always good. Zhoyna's is a great example. No matter how shit the item could be, hourglass is just such a powerful active that the item is almost always great. That leads to many people desiring it and always trying to fit it into the build path because it covers too much. Banshees is a better example of this where Banshees only works against one spell and has better play patterns (In my mind at least).

How these issue gets solved is just looking at all the items and seeing their failings. They do have a lot of them and I don't even think they need a buff. They just need adjustments and be more refined to meet their intended goals rather than just cover every base and be fine with it.

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