Riot LCS isn't fun to watch right now and it will never be fun to watch until you fix the game

IsIsGankedParis·Feb 2, 2015·120 votes·9,296 views

What is the problem? It's always the same few champs that are spammed because they are broken and occasionally 2 or 3 leave the roster and 2 or 3 join the roster before they are nerfed.

Lee Sin has been spammed since his release in LCS, I'm tired of seeing him in almost every LCS game possible.

Want to know what makes us REALLY want to watch LCS? Seeing someone who has either never been picked before or not been picked in a long time.

Remember when Swain was picked in LCS a while ago? Shit gave me goosebumps to FINALLY see a Swain in LCS and see how he played.

Poppy was used in LCS and I lost my shit that she was being played in LCS.

Remember when Darius was used in LCS? Season 2 early Season 3, hasn't been used in LCS since(to my knowledge) and I wish to see if he will be used top.

Remember the resurgence of Kog'Maw along with Maokai and Alistar being used in LCS again? That was great to see those guys again.

But we don't want to see those guys spammed for the next 30 or so games because 70% of the roster isn't viable enough to be used in pro play.

Why can Dota 2 have almost every champ viable enough for pro play but league only has 30 at one time with 15 of them being always used no matter what?

163 Comments

Killer X 12Feb 2, 201530 votes

My issues with LCS (from someone who has been watching on and off since season 3)

Same champs are picked all the time (within a certain meta)

Same champs are banned every single game (hey, maybe there is an issue with these champs...)

Pro players are Good...so the games are boring. People know their limits (usualy) so fights do not happen as often since one side can usually tell they are at a disadvantage.

One sided games. Boring as fuck, lets be real. Why am i watching people who get paid to play this game lose a game 20 kills to 0 at 14 minutes? Wtf is this trash.

I do not control the spectator mode, so i dont' get as much out of the games as i could. If i want to watch pro play to get better (which is really the only reason to watch it since its pretty boring) then i want to look at certain things...not what your camera man decides is valid.

Sometimes your commentators say the stupidest shit lol. Funny sometimes tho.

I feel that there are two main issues with LOL. 1) the community 2) the game I see number 1 a lot by myself when i'm in normals. I see the issues with the game when i watch pro play.

blueberrypancakeFeb 2, 201512 votes

Point me to a game where a team went 20-0 in 14 minutes. It must have been a long time ago. The commentators are what make the watching experience more fun. Who doesn't want PUNS OF DAMAGE from Phreak.

1st HanarSpectreFeb 2, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Point me to a game where a team went 20-0 in 14 minutes. It must have been a long time ago. The commentators are what make the watching experience more fun. Who doesn't want PUNS OF DAMAGE from Phreak.

Wasn't quite 20-0, but the winterfox - dignitas game was pretty much that. That was yesterday btw.

AnOstrichWithPMSFeb 2, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=1st HanarSpectre,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sdLqdznh,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2015-02-02T20:54:36.883+0000)

Wasn't quite 20-0, but the winterfox - dignitas game was pretty much that. That was yesterday btw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmHP3j2Lnn0

oh look its lee sin and zed.. oh look even in lcs its the most 1 sided game ever

oh look 20000gold lead and 2/20

this game is a JOKEEEEEEE!!!!!

GunpointFeb 2, 20158 votes

{quoted}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmHP3j2Lnn0

oh look its lee sin and zed.. oh look even in lcs its the most 1 sided game ever

oh look 20000gold lead and 2/20

this game is a JOKEEEEEEE!!!!!

Watching this game, more specifically Zed's first kill on Azir, makes me pissed. Azir shows way more mechanical skill and effort than Zed who, completely messes up, but still just presses R and gets away with the kill.

Hyrum GraffFeb 3, 20157 votes

Agreed. I will say that Zed was winning lane before that (up around 10 cs and a level, 3 longswords to azir's double dorans), but I still feel like given the skill demonstrated, Azir should have come out on top in that engage.

MatezoideFeb 3, 20153 votes

Welcome to Zed!

The guy that still kills you even if you out-play him hard.

Thats why i am playing less and less. I have to work three times as hard on the champions that i enjoy just to have comparable results to facerollers.

"Beautiul play by Pobelter!" my ass. Azir did everything right, but Zed still teleported half a lane away.

gubigubiFeb 3, 20152 votes

You say the community but you don't understand there's a lot of people that play lol smite and dota 2. I see the same garbage in all 3 games. It has all been up hill since dota 1 from wc3 though, that was pretty horrific for new players.

Killer X 12Feb 3, 20153 votes

I do play Smite, though i abstain from Dota. I don't mean "the community" as to say the LOL one is exceptionally bad in terms of how it views pro play. Whether it is different between different games is pretty irrelevant, i was not making a comparison. We can simply say then that its an issue with all Pro Mobas, but my statement above remains unchanged.

AuryielFeb 2, 201521 votes

Just wanna answer your question real quick about DotA vs LoL : Most DotA champs have their unique niche. Who the hell can do what Tinker does? Pretty much no one. So as long as what that hero provides is desirable, he'll have a place in competitive play because he's not competing with anyone.

Meanwhile, LoL champs are all similar enough that you'll always have those who are on top and those who are not. You have burst champions and you have burst champions with mobility. Why pick the former when the latter is so much better? You have assassins gated by mana and assassins who don't know what ressource management means.

Riot talks a big game about champ diversity, but as long as they keep playing whack-a-mole instead of doing the hard (but ultimately better) thing, which is look at every single champion and truly define what that champion brings that no one else can, we'll have to satisfy ourselves with 30-40% of the champion pool being viable and yelling "Hurray!"

RaptameiFeb 2, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Just wanna answer your question real quick about DotA vs LoL : Most DotA champs have their unique niche. Who the hell can do what Tinker does? Pretty much no one. So as long as what that hero provides is desirable, he'll have a place in competitive play because he's not competing with anyone.

Meanwhile, LoL champs are all similar enough that you'll always have those who are on top and those who are not. You have burst champions and you have burst champions with mobility. Why pick the former when the latter is so much better? You have assassins gated by mana and assassins who don't know what ressource management means.

Riot talks a big game about champ diversity, but as long as they keep playing whack-a-mole instead of doing the hard (but ultimately better) thing, which is look at every single champion and truly define what that champion brings that no one else can, we'll have to satisfy ourselves with 30-40% of the champion pool being viable and yelling "Hurray!"

There is no way they can diversify enough when 124 champions are crammed into 5 rigid roles.

And they can't loosen up the meta without allowing teams to win or lose based on decisions in champ select instead of gameplay, which goes against what they're trying to do.

They should never have allowed over 60 champions.

Dankplank420Feb 2, 20158 votes

Dota does it reasonably well. The problem is Riot's flawed philosophy of giving no specific great strengths or great weaknesses to champions, resulting in every new champion feeling the same on release (nuke? check. mobility spell? check. CC? check. steroid? check.) There are no niches to fill in league because all the champions in a role do the same thing, but some better than others so they get picked.

RaptameiFeb 2, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Dota does it reasonably well. The problem is Riot's flawed philosophy of giving no specific great strengths or great weaknesses to champions, resulting in every new champion feeling the same on release (nuke? check. mobility spell? check. CC? check. steroid? check.) There are no niches to fill in league because all the champions in a role do the same thing, but some better than others so they get picked.

That's my point, the meta defines what a viable champ should look like. Old Karma was fine but didn't fit the meta thus useless.

Jeddy017Feb 2, 20155 votes

Which brings us to the question:How important is the meta to the development of the game?Is the game made around the meta or is the meta made around the game?

Now I don't know a lot,but I read a few things around the forums. 1)The oh-so-important meta was something the pros,not the developers,came up with a few seasons ago.It wasn't a meta of how things should be played,but a strategy that worked.Then everyone else started doing & Riot made or balanced champs that specifically around/based the roles defined by this meta,which indirectly enforced it.

2)I don't play DOTA 2,but I read posts saying that there is no meta.Yet,it's a common rival of LOL,so it's still a successful game without a predominate meta.

3)Why should champions be defined by a meta that can change at any time?When a champ who use to be perfect for the role is now nonviable or the other way around?

EDIT:4)Also,you say old Karma was useless because she didn't fit the meta aka unviable.Doesn't that mean over half the champs in the game are useless?

Guineasaurus RexFeb 3, 20153 votes

I've always hated the idea of the meta. My idea of a fun game is picking the champ that you want to play and playing them the way you want or are good at, not the way defined by the meta. Part of the problem is the community of sheep that only want to do and want you to do what the pros are doing. The other part of the problem is riot enforcing the meta by balancing champs around it.

As far as watching LCS goes, Riot REALLY needs to focus on balancing champions rather than making more of them and causing further imbalances in the game. They keep coming out with more champs yet we see the same ~20 in all the LCS games, it's dumb.

I understand they make money off champ sales but they should focus on getting more creative with skins focus on selling those, rather than further breaking their game

MEMEME670Feb 3, 20151 votes

My idea of a fun game is picking the champ that you want to play and playing them the way you want or are good at, not the way defined by the meta.

What, exactly, is preventing you from doing this? Even if you're playing Ranked, as long as you're nice to your team (although they may flame you, depending on how unique your choice is) you won't get punished for it. There is social pressure to conform to the meta, but that's just something you deal with everyday in life, and not really unique to league.

Also, I am not sure why you think Riot enforces the meta with their balance?

Balancing & Making champions are different teams of people, and they can't move people from one team to another.

Guineasaurus RexFeb 4, 20151 votes

to me the fact that champs are labeled as support or jungle or whatever. Sure you can go against this, but that is what THEY intended that champ to do well and that is how they intend to balance that champ.

Hilltop SunsetFeb 2, 20153 votes

I miss old Karma so much. ;____;

SpecterVonBarenFeb 2, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Just wanna answer your question real quick about DotA vs LoL : Most DotA champs have their unique niche. Who the hell can do what Tinker does? Pretty much no one. So as long as what that hero provides is desirable, he'll have a place in competitive play because he's not competing with anyone.

Meanwhile, LoL champs are all similar enough that you'll always have those who are on top and those who are not. You have burst champions and you have burst champions with mobility. Why pick the former when the latter is so much better? You have assassins gated by mana and assassins who don't know what ressource management means.

Riot talks a big game about champ diversity, but as long as they keep playing whack-a-mole instead of doing the hard (but ultimately better) thing, which is look at every single champion and truly define what that champion brings that no one else can, we'll have to satisfy ourselves with 30-40% of the champion pool being viable and yelling "Hurray!"

Hhm.... You know, after reading this I looked through the champ roster trying to think of what champions we have that are truly different from the other champions in their class and I could only think of two that stood out to me which were Heimerdinger and Singed. Hiemer is very different from other mages in that most of his power doesn't come from himself and requires set up time to function well, and Singed is different in that he succeeds by running away from his enemies.

But then I remembered all the little things about each champ that make them interesting, and I think they just need to go on a large buffing rampage and give all champs a big buff to their unique strength, make Rumble's Heat even more interesting in how it works besides just stat buffs, make Vlad even more about draining health from his enemies, make Teemo the embodiment of Guerrilla style warfare, ect. Could it be done...

Sightless66Feb 3, 20152 votes

make Teemo the embodiment of Guerrilla style warfare,

Be careful with this one. Go too far and you end up with Techies. And no one wants Techies. Even Techies players don't want Techies. They just want their opponents to not have fun.

AbodyHUN666Feb 3, 20151 votes

Are they really that bad?

Sightless66Feb 3, 20151 votes

A Techies player's main goals are to place mines all over the map, delay the game out until 2 hours, and ensure that they kill themselves so you can't even get money when you finally hunt the annoying fuckers down and give them the righteous beatdown. Their abilities are as follows: Q: Put down a mine. W. Put down a stun mine. R. Put down a remote control mine. E. Kill yourself.

AbodyHUN666Feb 3, 20151 votes

I looked them up, they seem to be the definition of a toxic champ.

Ashes AriseFeb 2, 201519 votes

Season 5 is looking like the beginning of the end for league. The balance team has clearly lost something, and no one on the inside is holding them accountable. The other season changes came with a lot of negativity as well, but that was just because things changed. People don't like change where they don't see a problem. The thing is Seasons 1-4 were just different. I can't say there was a season among them that I felt was particularly the best, but Season 5 is the first to just strike me as flat out bad.

Top lane is a train wreck - Honestly, this is nothing new.

Middle lane is the worst I've seen it - No really. It is really bad. Itemization is so awful atm.

Bot is surprisingly solid - We are seeing a greater variety in picks for bot, and this lane feels the healthiest of all the spots. This is only true during laning phase though. Mobility creep as really distorted what it means to be ranged. ADCs power has skyrocketed because of range not being good enough agaisnt the onslaught of mobility, and the non mobile champions are suffering heavily.

Jungle.... oh jungle jungle jungle - No words can describe how horrible jungle is now. Absolutely every single change is bad. There is no excuse. They wanted to try some experimental stuff. It didn't work out, but they kept it anyways. What in God's name is going on with this?

Silents429Feb 2, 20154 votes

You are an actual idiot if you are convinced Season 5 marks the downfall of League of Legends, The current (and still rising) most popular online game in the world currently.

Rinky DinkyFeb 2, 20157 votes

Not only that, but this is not the worst the game has been in by a long shot.

This game is VERY close to being balanced. Riot just wont fucking do the few simple things that NEED to be done.

Lee Sin NEEDS to go. He is why the jungle is shit.

Riot also needs to stop with the "Only skillful champions can be viable" bullshit.

The reason league is more popular than Dota is because honestly, the champion's themselves are far more enjoyable and fleshed out.

If the game was actually balanced, Dota would be left behind in the dust, no contest.

Removing dfg was a good start, now finish what you are obviously trying to do, and fix this game.

Gut the blind monk, and free the jungle.

trexmixGFeb 2, 20152 votes

i agree with you on most points

but if you think riot thinks "only skillful champs can be viable" you are wrong.

that being said

if a champ takes more skill it should reward you.

Rinky DinkyFeb 3, 20152 votes

In alot of cases it seems that way, although there are exceptions.

I personally believe all champions should have a niche that they excel in. If this game ever reached that point, I would be content.

It doesnt how small the niche is, as long as it exists, it is fine by me.

Right now, it doesnt matter if a champion fits a niche, you could just take the fotm top pick and 9 times out of 10 do their job better.

Now the only champions imo who are guilty of this atm are Lee, and Kinda Zed I guess. The previous offenders have been brought in line (Lucian, Tristani, Corki, Fizz, Renekton, etc,) and the game is better for it.

Once the final offender's are brought in and fixed, I think the game will be fine for the most part. We are very close.

trexmixGFeb 3, 20151 votes

but a champ like thresh who takes lots of skill SHOULD reward you for being good at him.

Leona will always be worse then a thresh pro bc thresh's skill cap is higher, and it SHOULD be that way.

Ashes AriseFeb 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You are an actual idiot if you are convinced Season 5 marks the downfall of League of Legends, The current (and still rising) most popular online game in the world currently.

Not quite so much the downfall of league, just the hump. The point where we can look back 3 years from now when it is has much fewer players, and say "that is where things went wrong".

The league equivalent of what cataclysm was for WoW, and the new combat system for runescape. that sort of thing. No league isn't going away anytime soon, but this is looking like the point where things are going to start getting ugly. It always happens eventually. Developers lose sight of what made their game popular in the first place.

Silents429Feb 3, 20151 votes

This happens the start of every season, everyone acts like its the end of the world. You always get over it later in the season.

Ashes AriseFeb 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This happens the start of every season, everyone acts like its the end of the world. You always get over it later in the season.

I've never complained about a new season... This is a first for me. I'm absolutely miserable in summoners rift these days.

Silents429Feb 3, 20151 votes

Well thats wonderful, but the point is every season people convince themselves its the end.

They still have some tweaking to do, Season 4 jungle didn't start off the way it ended.

Penguin EclipseFeb 2, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ashes Arise,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sdLqdznh,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2015-02-02T18:12:03.546+0000)

Season 5 is looking like the beginning of the end for league. The balance team has clearly lost something, and no one on the inside is holding them accountable. The other season changes came with a lot of negativity as well, but that was just because things changed. People don't like change where they don't see a problem. The thing is Seasons 1-4 were just different. I can't say there was a season among them that I felt was particularly the best, but Season 5 is the first to just strike me as flat out bad.

Part of the problem has been the increasing shift to using PBE for nothing more than a showcase of upcoming content and maybe a few bugs here and there. It is pretty clear that they are barely using it at all for testing balance anymore otherwise we wouldn't keep getting these ridiculous power swings patch after patch. And feedback is being almost entirely ignored. It doesn't matter that they claim they read it. It is clearly not being used.

As is clear by them defending the Syndra Q nerfs they were repeatedly told were unnecessary. The removal of DFG and some retuning of her E stun were more than enough to keep her in line. She is completely broken now. And unless her Q nerfs get reverted (highly unlikely) there won't be much fixing that can be done for her. She will just get thrown in the pile of broken champions like Elise until Riot decides she should get a rework instead of reverting their own mistake that was made from ignorance.

DrCyanideFeb 2, 201518 votes

Stop watching the NA LCS. Personal experience (granted, not a ton of it) says that the EU is actually mixing stuff up. Aatrox Jungle, Kennen Top, stuff like that.

TarynFeb 2, 201515 votes

I don't know about you but I personally love watching the same picks and the same bans every match. Like I love trying to guess if the match is a replay of last weeks matches or if it's actually a different match.

Like when Janna support was picked or banned every match so far I personally was excited every single time. When Gnar was constantly brought top lane and Jarvan IV always picked for Jungle I could barely contain my excitement.

I was also so surprised that no one has picked up Sona, like she is so oppressive to lane against I was expecting to see her every match. But instead it's been Annie running the support show. I know they'll probably nerf Sona to compensate though, I mean it's only logical.

Yay LCS!

Miku Lv99Feb 2, 20158 votes

That's because EU teams aren't good enough to know that the champions NA is only using are better. EU isn't as great to watch since they're just not as good.

SolaxoFeb 2, 201527 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Lv99,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sdLqdznh,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-02T07:26:10.439+0000)

That's because EU teams aren't good enough to know that the champions NA is only using are better. EU isn't as great to watch since they're just not as good.

There's no such thing as "NA" after Asians started forcing themselves into your region

MrSlowDieFeb 2, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darius Only,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sdLqdznh,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-02-02T06:13:00.286+0000) It's always the same few champs

that's right that's why I hyped when seeing Nasus BD, TF jungle, and Fiddlestick in competitive play.

what most I love is the TF jungle though, ->Highlight Xerath so bjerg remember xerath ->Pick TF ->"Oh.. TF, I have to counter him, with what? Oh yeah I have xerath" ->Then pick LB

Kowe The EwokFeb 2, 20156 votes

I remember AP Kog being played by Froggen at a tournament back in S2. He played incredibly. A week later Ap Kog was basically nerfed into the ground.

Now we can have champions requiring a third of the skill dominating the game for half a year, a board full of topics about broken champions and Riot does nothing.

ImHerVoiceFeb 2, 20155 votes

my j4 saw pro play back in s2/s3 EQ range nerfed by 150 gg wp'ed(now his Q sometimes misses targets standing slightly infront of his model and also the damage from Q has been delayed for another .5 seconds due to this nerf so you can die despite seeing the Q animation go off and even hearing it)

My ali sees proplay. Headbutt range reduced by 100-150 Ali sees proplay again. Headbutt now has no auto attack (RIP AP ALI THE FUN WAY TO SUPPOR)

My janna see's proplay in s1/s2/s3 lots of small nerfs then some number changes. "Utility scaling" nerf every base stats to make it so you need 280+ ap to make up for the lost base stats. you need about 300 AP to have the "utility" scaling buffs take effect. Interesting utility scaling.

Nerf zeypher. No compensation for AP janna still. Nerf Q. Skill no compensation. RIP.

ChessburgerFeb 2, 20155 votes

J4 is arguably the best jungler right now and is seeing plenty of play in the LCS... Janna is the best disengage support and sees play constantly... Alistar was overnerfed because Riot think he's toxic when strong (I disagree).

ImHerVoiceFeb 3, 20151 votes

Idgaf about support janna. She's so easy to play as support a low elo can have a 70%+ winrate with her. support janna has next to zero depth.

ChessburgerFeb 3, 20152 votes

Janna has always been a support. Some played her ap because you could charge up tornado and clear caster minions + melees with 1 auto each. You could basically sit like that pushing all day without harm. Riot didn't want that so they dumped her ap and made her a full support. You may disagree but watching that farm all day would be magnitudes more boring.

ImHerVoiceFeb 3, 20151 votes

So because you think its boring that justfies gutting a different playstyle to the champion? Ok.

Well Fuck Your Opinion.

Your thought process fits perfectly with Tencent owned riot games.

KingsgraveFeb 2, 20153 votes

LCS has always been like this and always will be.

SmokingPuffinFeb 2, 20153 votes

FYI, the last two Internationals have seen greater pick concentration among the top 20 DotA heroes than the last two LoL worlds have had with the top 20 champions. DotA does have more heroes that get picked once or twice, but the DotA meta is just as much about the same picks every game as the LoL meta.

Right now, I'm pretty unhappy with jungle diversity, especially since Riot made a big set of claims on that topic for the preseason. The different playstyle enabling jungle items so far do nothing and we're seeing only bruiser/duelist/initiator junglers see picks. Everywhere else I'm honestly quite comfortable; I don't really care to see random new stuff every day, and just want a healthy meta where a decent variety of playstyles can be seen.

Knight DevoutFeb 2, 20153 votes

They just need to wrap their mind with their bruiser/tank/fighter dilemma, otherwise we will always have 2 types of champion in the jungle: whoever is overloaded in the current patch, and LeeSin+Elise.

If tank items are too good, fighters become too good with just one tank item and offense. If tank items aren't good enough, tank don't get picked at all because they can't soak enough damage (exceptions are champion who have %damage reduction, such as Alistar Mao'kai and Braum). I'd say they need a way to differentiate fighters from tanks, and to allow champions who want to focus disruption and crowd control to survive through at least half teamfight. Otherwise, teams who need cc will just pick whoever ranged mage can land some cc from a safe range.

Subject 5Feb 2, 20155 votes

http://puu.sh/fnn2r/9224cd4d7a.png

Elise is not overloaded and never really has been considering she has two kits, unless if you want to consider everybody who has more than one kit overloaded which kind of throws out logic XD. Elise is basically nothing right now, Urgot has a better win ratio and has a 1.95 pick ratio. She is just dreading to play anymore, how dare she ever consider contesting Lee in the jungle. I would like Elise back, even if i don't own her.

Vegas DadFeb 2, 20154 votes

Joking right? Elise is sickeningly overloaded, you understand what it means? Her numbers were just made really weak to cover how overloaded she is, aka ELISE is a very good example of paying for everything you have in another way, now if j4 and lee sin did it you might see elise as a viable pick again....but then again a big pile of tops mid and adc are over tuned so they can handle lee sin and j4 ...you now see the problem.....

Riot has created a monster instead of fix mobility creep and overloaded kits right off the bat by making them weak dmg dealers they instead left some of them and created new monsters to manage those overloaded, mobile heavy dmg dealers.....so now to fix it you goto nail all the causes AND the effects they created.

Like really gnar and to imagine they nerfed singed....last year..... what a joke. Yet not even a remote attempt to undo the singed nerfs so he can be played....

Warwick season 5 FOUR NERFS ROFL.....meanwhile gnar.....j4.....zed...... corki.....KALISTA.....