Riven should lose her animation cancelling, it is giving her power that wasn't meant to be there.

IsIsGankedParis·Jun 15, 2015·265 votes·14,796 views

Honestly, her damage in her spells and her passive are OK but being able to dish out ALL of that damage in 1-2 seconds WHILE being able to sustain through the fight with her spammable shield(which is easy to get to around 4 seconds with 40% CDR as most Riven's build that) is absurd.

Riot has even said that Riven's animation cancelling was NOT intended at all, the fact that she can hit u with 3 empowered autos and all 3 Q strikes within 1-1.5 seconds shouldn't exist.

The fact that she can get rid of her R animation and activate W all at the same time with her E shouldn't exist.

Riven can use all of her spells and 3 empowered auto attacks within 2 seconds, faster if the player is very used to animation cancelling with Riven.

This shouldn't exist at all, it gives so many other champs that a huge disadvantage as they don't have the luxury of being able to cancel all of their animations with their spells.

Now she shouldn't just have her animation cancellations removed then left in the dumpster, as I'm sure it MIGHT do that, she should be left in the state with no animation cancelling for 1 patch to see how she rolls, if her win rate does somehow plummet and all of the actually good Riven players are starting to have immense troubles justifying/using her effectively, then she deserves buffs so that she actually becomes a bruiser with sustainability in fights, not a bruiser with the burst of an assassin and sustainability of a Bruiser.

303 Comments

Slamurai JackJun 16, 201550 votes

I'm all for it because hoping the enemy Riven either doesn't know how to animation cancel or can't do it properly isn't counterplay. It's a weird little mechanical trick that gives her an enormous boost in dps that I can't really do anything about as her opponent. The only option I really have is to try and dash in the middle of her combo to make her put her mouse cursor in the wrong spot, but that's often not possible due to her multiple hard CC's.

I'm all down with buffing her in exchange too. I much rather face a stronger Riven with more accessible counterplay than the one we have now.

Hinagiku33Jun 16, 201524 votes

Except that's not what's going to happen.

Riven without animation canceling is just plain bad. If you can't get her entire kit off in a couple seconds then there is no literally no reason to ever pick her. Buffing a couple of numbers won't solve anything. Either she'll still be trash tier or her numbers will be so high that she can kill you with only the part of her kit that she can get out.

Animation canceling, annoying as it is for those of us that can't do it and thus suck with Riven (that'd be me), is a gate to her power. It's no different than some people actually knowing what to do with Lee Sin or Shaco and being terrifying vs. those who do not know their tricks and suck.

We just seem to complain about some champs being faceroll easy and then turn around and ask for a champ that actually has requires some mechanic skill to be effective to have that skill/mechanics requirement removed in favor of more raw faceroll power. I don;t get it...

Slamurai JackJun 16, 201555 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fiora All Night,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wdq4hbod,comment-id=000c0001,timestamp=2015-06-16T02:14:05.752+0000)

Except that's not what's going to happen.

Riven without animation canceling is just plain bad. If you can't get her entire kit off in a couple seconds then there is no literally no reason to ever pick her. Buffing a couple of numbers won't solve anything. Either she'll still be trash tier or her numbers will be so high that she can kill you with only the part of her kit that she can get out.

Animation canceling, annoying as it is for those of us that can't do it and thus suck with Riven (that'd be me), is a gate to her power. It's no different than some people actually knowing what to do with Lee Sin or Shaco and being terrifying vs. those who do not know their tricks and suck.

We just seem to complain about some champs being faceroll easy and then turn around and ask for a champ that actually has requires some mechanic skill to be effective to have that skill/mechanics requirement removed in favor of more raw faceroll power. I don;t get it...

What if we made it so Karthus could make his ult do 50% extra damage if he managed to type out "pjwmcbvirxuy" before his channel finished? That's an extra layer of mechanical skill that also has no real counterplay. Riven is no different; her power level is gated around a mechanic that I as her opponent cannot directly influence. I have counterplay against a good Lee Sin or Shaco because I know how they work and what they want to do; I have no counterplay against a Riven who can right click on me, press Q, right click on the ground, all repeated, until I'm dead. It's not like Riven would suddenly be a total faceroll champ if her Q animation canceling wasn't a thing. Her skill floor would be alot lower, sure, but the really good Rivens beat you because of great management of their CD's to avoid as much damage as possible, and they would still be able to do that. Balancing around a non-counterplay mechanic is stupid anyway, which is what they were forced to do with Sion until they reworked him and have been doing with Poppy until her rework is complete. Even if Riven is stronger in the hands of the average player with buffed numbers and no Q canceling, she's still better for the health of the game than she is now where she's ass on people who don't do it and oppressive on people that do.

Also, it's funny to me because when the bug came up on PBE a few months ago that made her Q canceling automatic, people argued against keeping it for the opposite reason. "Riven will become totally faceroll and get nerfed, hurting the good Riven players." Now it's "Riven will become totally trash and have to be buffed, making her faceroll while still being weaker for good Riven players." I just want a Riven that doesn't have to be balanced around this needlessly difficult, no counterplay mechanic that requires no decision making and doesn't even make sense in a moba; make her Q canceling automatic or remove it entirely and balance her accordingly. I don't care which.

Zair UmbrasJun 16, 20158 votes

Displacements are a quick way to fuck over a Riven, which is counterplay. So is not being so squishy that she kills you in the single Q combo. Most tend to feed her since instead of building and playing against her, they build and play the way THEY want to and FEED her because they choose to think League is some kind of 'Play how you want to!' kinda game when realistically, it's a Strategic game that you should actually learn how to play, not say 'Screw you guys, I do what I want'.

AbyssphereJun 16, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wdq4hbod,comment-id=000c000100000000,timestamp=2015-06-16T09:23:17.994+0000)

Displacements are a quick way to fuck over a Riven, which is counterplay. So is not being so squishy that she kills you in the single Q combo. Most tend to feed her since instead of building and playing against her, they build and play the way THEY want to and FEED her because they choose to think League is some kind of 'Play how you want to!' kinda game when realistically, it's a Strategic game that you should actually learn how to play, not say 'Screw you guys, I do what I want'.

But that's counterplay to Riven as a whole, not the animation cancelling. He doesn't want more options for playing against Riven, he just wants to have at least some say in her being able to do her combo in about a third of the time it was meant to be done in.

Zair UmbrasJun 16, 20156 votes

Well, that's the thing. It is expected and she's been balanced around the animation cancelling for ages now. If they remove the one thing that makes her difficult, then her kit would be even HARDER to balance since she'd be incredibly slow, so they'd have to speed up her Q and reduced the cast time on her W so her enemies are stunned for longer than her cast time. Too many buffs would be needed to properly balance her with the removal of this, but it would make her far too easy and you'd see far more bitching about her. It's best to just use counterplay against Riven since she is balanced the way she is. Killing a squishy instantly is what big bursters like her do. Considering her only gap closers are her E and her Q, she'd be wasting her 1.5s shield to get 'near' you or she'd be wasting part of her burst to get near you. If she's on top of you, yes her animation cancelling will seem overwhelming. She's meant to be CC'd mid-combo or kept at a distance to begin with. That's why her main counters have hard CC. Garen and Renekton are two of her biggest counters and both are able to stop her combo mid-combo, which will screw up any Riven's combo.

Just gotta counterplay Riven rather than trying to nerf her burst speed. She's not LB where she can do her damage at 700 range and she's not Zed who can press R and instantly be ontop of some one who's ways away from her. She has travel time and you can predict her movements, so just counterplay her. Stun her if she tries to combo so she can't combo. Considering she has to get through a tank, it shouldn't be too hard to toss 'one' form of hard CC at her face when she tries to jump at some one. lol.

OyddAWqJ5rJun 17, 20156 votes

She was released without animation canceling being an intended thing. But if the problem is her being slow then keep animation canceling but make it automatic and not require ground clicking aka Q -> AA = Q -> (anim. cancel) -> AA.

Then the unnecessary over-complications are gone but the speedy combo is still there. Then she can finally be properly balanced once every player and, more importantly, pro player is able to reliably Q cancel.

Zair UmbrasJun 17, 20154 votes

Pro players have been able to do it reliably, Riven is just an unreliable champion. All melees without a good gap closer suffer a lack of pro play. Riven has high mobility with her E and Q, but prior to the right amount of CDR, she can use it to escape or go in, not both. Early on, if she goes aggro and uses the animation cancel, which is a mixture of her E and proper AA timing with a fast hand to move at the same time. Eventually they'll decide on what to do. Currently, her kit has been balanced around the animation cancelling, so they'd have to make a loooooooooooooot of numbers changing to make it work without the cancel.

OyddAWqJ5rJun 17, 20156 votes

Doesn't change the fact that it's still unnecessary complication that could easily be changed to Q -> AA (auto cancel). Doesn't affect gameplay at all, just makes the way she is intended to work more easily accessible by reducing unnecessary inputs.

Zair UmbrasJun 18, 20153 votes

That's the problem. She wasn't INTENDED to do this, it was something they overlooked and have had to balance around. With how many champions there are, Riven is currently in a healthy state. She has her counters, usually tanks or anyone who can peel her off the carry since she can't combo well if she has to use her combo to get to the squishy. 7.8s CD is kinda scary you know, especially if you had to use it to get TO the person. 7.8s is after 40% CDR btw. :P

OyddAWqJ5rJun 18, 20155 votes

But now it's accepted as the way they intend for her to work and as such should have the unnecessary complication removed.

Hinagiku33Jun 16, 20159 votes

When Riot made Riven's animation canceling automatic, then reverted it, I'm pretty sure they made a few comments that the actual mechanic of animation canceling on Riven (while originally a bug) is basically now endorsed by Riot. "But it's a bug" is just no longer an issue. That is now an intentional mechanic that Riot has already done poking into.

That said, I feel I wasn't being clear:

I have no idea of the current Riven is "balanced" or "healthy" or whatever.

I'm just stating that Riven's kit currently requires her to at least have some mechanical skill and I feel that we should not just delete things that require players to actually be somewhat skillful to use properly.

Also this: "non-counterplay mechanic"

Do you feel that all ranged basic attacks and targeted abilities are also stupid? Or do you just hate Riven? How is getting deleted by a Riven that knows how to animation cancel any worse than getting deleted by a Veigar that knows how to press "R"?

I'm trying to explain that:

Removing Riven's animation canceling will 100% absolutely result in biffs for Riven
This new Riven will now require less skill to actually be playable/good (depending on how strong the buffs are)
If you hate Riven now, when only mechanically good Riven's can gib you...why do you want to make MORE people able to kill you with Riven?
Honestly...if Riven must be changed, please realize that Riven's current kit is just plain terrible without animation canceling. Please just skip past the "trash tier for 3 patches then pure cancer for 1-2 patches" and just ask for a full rework that doesn't require Riven to gib you in under 2 seconds or suck.

Nightshade3226Jun 16, 201531 votes

The only reason Riven is any good (and why everyone THINKS she is overpowered) is because of animation cancelling. Take that away and she would suck.

I think that is a very good display of just how weak she really is and how badly designed she is. If you need to use a mechanical exploit (and it IS an exploit) to make her even useable, something is very wrong.

I find the whole "skill cap" argument to be stupid. It isn't the same as the likes of Lee Sin or other champions with a supposedly high skill requirement, because they were built that way. Riven was not built that way. She was designed to be a low-skill champion that, because of a bug, became a monster and was nerfed into oblivion where only the most "skilled" people could even use her and not be terrible.

Maybe I'm alone, but that just screams bad design to me.

Hinagiku33Jun 15, 201527 votes

The problem I see with this is...

It would make Riven way, way less hard to play while also making her suck. Even if she gets buffed, she will still be easier to play than she is now and all of the players that hate Riven will complain that much harder.

Seriously, down at my level Riven is terrible and basically never gets played. None of us know how the hell her animation canceling works at all. I've played her every now and then since Season 2 and she's very...meh. She's kinda slow, doesn't do that much damage unless you get off the entire kit, which won't happen if you can't get her long chain of abilities and auto-attacks out fast enough.

As much as the current Riven might suck for some of you, Riven is currently only good if you know how to animation cancel with her and trash everywhere else. This will only make her trash for everyone and force Riot to buff her like you said...only then she'd be roughly as strong as she is now except much easier to play since you'd be removing the only mechanic that makes her remotely difficult.

AnonagonJun 16, 201525 votes

That logic doesn't really work.

Riven currently works like this: if you know animation canceling, she wins about 70% of games. If you don't, you probably only win 30%. (of course these numbers are made up and probably a little extreme but you get the point) You base your argument around the idea that, if animation canceling was removed and Riven buffed, she would be buffed to current animation-cancelling Riven's power level.

She wouldn't. Riven, with animation canceling, is very possibly the strongest champion in the game by far. To buff her to that level would make her have a consistent 60+% winrate. Right now, Riven is balanced completely around the fact that 90% of the playerbase cannot play her correctly but will try to do so anyway. If her animation canceling were removed, it would be possible to balance her in a non-obnoxious way that makes it so Riven one-trick-pony mains aren't as godly as they are.

ErockandrollJun 15, 201518 votes

too late now, Riven got balanced around an unintended Mechanic. Get rid of that and well be looking at compensating buffs, except that would just lead to more complaints because she would have lost her skill floor.

Last time that her auto attack cancelling was touched was unintended as a result of readjusting how CC stacked. And Everyone freaking panicked.

Vistha KaiJun 15, 20153 votes

That didn't stop Riot from removing DFG and fixing Ahri being balanced around it, now did it?

ErockandrollJun 15, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wdq4hbod,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-06-15T22:39:38.192+0000)

That didn't stop Riot from removing DFG and fixing Ahri being balanced around it, now did it?

DFG was a problem on More Champions than Just Ahri.

My real problem with that was that they more or less removed the duality of be an Assassin or mage when they got rid of the Damage amp on her E. Then again, both mage and assassins job is to do damage so maybe it doesn't matter either way.

Only Play DariusJun 16, 20158 votes

I wouldn't say being able to quickly move your mouse between two specific spots constitutes a "skill floor".

BârdJun 15, 201516 votes

If riven was to lose animation canceling, it would be as bad as taking away the ability to cancel autos or orbwalk from vayne.

YumaS2AstralJun 16, 20154 votes

Honestly I wouldn't even mind if Riot had to buff Riven after they removed the animation canceling. As long as the buffs don't make her obnoxious, of course.

DedriusJun 16, 20156 votes

Then she would do the same amount of damage while not needed to be very good on Riven.

YumaS2AstralJun 16, 20152 votes

MasterYi is a perfect example of a balanced champion, that can still potentially deal absurd amounts of damage while being easy to play.

If Master Yi can be such a champion, why Riven can't?

YumaS2AstralJun 15, 201511 votes

People that say that Riven is balanced probably never met one that knows how to "animation cancel" - This is the single thing that makes her broken because she can burst you down without giving you any opportunity to react, and allows her to build almost full damage while having the durability of a bruiser.

I wouldn't even mind if they had to buff her damage if she lost her animation canceling.

Goodest GamerJun 16, 20155 votes

im a riven main and playing ranked with riven is suicide. everyone that is ranged and tanky shits on her. shut the fuck up. please. jesus lord. shut the fuck up.

YumaS2AstralJun 16, 20156 votes

These champions are either ranged or tanky, and Riven shits on them: DrMundo Gnar Shen Vladimir Diana Teemo

BluePolarizerJun 16, 20152 votes

Riven does not do shit to Gnar or Vlad. All they have to do is farm safely and there's nothing Riven can do.

YumaS2AstralJun 16, 20159 votes

I am a main Vlad and I must say, Riven indeed shits on him hard. Vladimir has hard matchups such as Xin Zhao, Fiddlesticks, or Swain, but Riven is by far the hardest of them.

You must play very safe. You have no hard CC to stop her, and you are squishy during early game. You must unfortunately start with armor quints, which is a shame because without MS quints you will be more prone to be outrunned and kited by enemies.

Riven will zone Vladimir very hard and probably force him to farm under tower, which forces him to farm using Q, otherwise he will miss CS, and Q has a long cooldown during early game.

Then you are forced to rush item 3191 instead of item 3145 because otherwise you will not have the armor needed to survive her all-ins.

Then, there is another problem. Even if you somehow survive the lane phase against Riven, she has a far stronger mid-game compared to Vlad; he has no hard CC to stop her during teamfights and skirmishes. Even with item 3116 , Vladimir just can't prevent Riven from just jumping on his allies, stunning them and killing them. You will have to rely on your tank and your support to do that. If you don't have a tank jungler and/or your support is squishy, then... Good luck trying to win that game.

That's the problem: Vladimir can potentially win every other matchup because even if the enemy champion happens to give Vlad a hard laning phase, such as Xin Zhao, Fiddlesticks or Swain, Vladimir can outscale all of them. Problem with Riven is that Vladimir can't outscale her, only during the very late game that he will technically be stronger, but even then, he still has the same problem of not having the hard CC needed to stop her.

Celeste BenalJun 16, 20152 votes

You're full of it and clearly have never seen a competent player using her.

Here: Box Box Unranked to Diamond in 24 hours

Goodest GamerJun 16, 20154 votes

i was there when he was doing the stream. 1- he didnt get to diamond 2- HE IS A CHALLENGER PLAYER 3- THEY ARE FUCKING BRONZE-PLAT 1 4. a good player can shit on others with poppy if he wants to. your point is invalid.

rtbf221146393Jun 16, 20156 votes

{quoted}

People that say that Riven is balanced probably never met one that knows how to "animation cancel" - This is the single thing that makes her broken because she can burst you down without giving you any opportunity to react, and allows her to build almost full damage while having the durability of a bruiser.

I wouldn't even mind if they had to buff her damage if she lost her animation canceling.

You have no idea what you're talking about. why do low elo players try to talk about balance. you never met a riven who knows how to do the fast combo+animation cancel anyway.

YumaS2AstralJun 16, 20154 votes

I am not a low elo player. This is an account that I use to be able to post on those boards, since my actual account is on the BR servers. I am a Gold II player and I am constantly playing against Platinum and Diamond players, both on ranked and on normal games.

With that said, I've met plenty of Rivens that know how to do the fast combo+animation cancel. It is an extremely stupid situation, especially since I main champions that are hard countered by her. Thus I have to go into another lane OR ban Riven, otherwise I am forced to play certain champions such as Malphite just to counter or at least survive her. Actually the only reason why I bothered to learn how to play Malphite is because he is a counter to Riven during the lane phase.

rtbf221146393Jun 16, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I am not a low elo player. This is an account that I use to be able to post on those boards, since my actual account is on the BR servers. I am a Gold II player and I am constantly playing against Platinum and Diamond players, both on ranked and on normal games.

With that said, I've met plenty of Rivens that know how to do the fast combo+animation cancel. It is an extremely stupid situation, especially since I main champions that are hard countered by her. Thus I have to go into another lane OR ban Riven, otherwise I am forced to play certain champions such as Malphite just to counter or at least survive her. Actually the only reason why I bothered to learn how to play Malphite is because he is a counter to Riven during the lane phase.

Lol gold 2 on BR, and you're trying to talk about balance...

And yes, GOLD IS LOW ELO. Plat and low diamond is LOW ELO TOO. Especially in a wildcard region.

YumaS2AstralJun 16, 201510 votes

Then you are saying that only Masters and Challengers have the right to say anything about Riven? Also, what's your definition of low elo?

Everyone has the right to have a opinion, respect me and stop using such a ridiculous argument. You are attacking me using my elo instead of explaining why Riven is supposedly balanced.

ElJanitorFrankJun 16, 201510 votes

Nonononono, that is a horrible idea, and this is coming from someone who hates Riven more than any other champion.

Her kit is balanced around the idea that animation cancelling is a thing. If you take it away, you need to give her a buff to compensate for the lack of power.

And that means that the shitty Riven players will be doing good, and only the skilled Riven players who practice Riven a lot will suffer for it.

What you're asking is basically: Nerf Riven. Or alternatively: Make Riven an easy faceroll champ.

I don't understand why you're opposed to animation cancelling, all it does is raise the skill ceiling. It's been in the game for such a long time that Riot's balancing of Riven has revolved around this gameplay element.

JustMyBassCannonJun 16, 201517 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand why you're opposed to animation cancelling, all it does is raise the skill ceiling. It's been in the game for such a long time that Riot's balancing of Riven has revolved around this gameplay element.

That doesn't mean it's a good thing. What about when Rumble's flamethrower wasn't aiming properly, so it had nearly double the damage to compensate for it missing half the time?

Besides, didn't Riot say animation canceling on Riven isn't intended?

ElJanitorFrankJun 16, 20155 votes

Yes, they did say it wasn't intended. About 2 years ago. And Riven has been balanced plenty of times since then accordingly.

On the topic of Rumble, did you know since his flamespitter only applies once per second, you can spin your champion around and have it do damage in 360 degrees around you? That wasn't intended, Riot still isn't going to nerf it.

ChaoticPineconeJun 16, 20153 votes

because not all of us having west-coast ping to animation cancel consistently.

ElJanitorFrankJun 16, 20155 votes

You don't need good ping to animation cancel. Once you get the timing down you aren't watching the screen for what happens, you just do it instinctively.

ChaoticPineconeJun 16, 20151 votes

I can tell you dont play with 120-170 ping. I can animation cancel - i do it with many of my spells, such as LB W or Lux E, but its not consistent. sometimes it works. sometimes it doesnt. Around 120 ping it works fine. Around 140 its a crapshoot. 170 is more often than not it doesnt.

ElJanitorFrankJun 16, 20153 votes

I've been in many situations where I've had 500+ ping.

It's the same timing, unless your ping is constantly fluctuating, you will easily be able to animation cancel.

ChaoticPineconeJun 16, 20151 votes

so again, its not consistent. Why do some people get to animation cancel freely and consistently while other people dont, based purely on their location in the U.S?

For most champions, animation canceling gives a slight advantage - an extra auto, a couple more units of movement, or using the second part of your abilities a little faster. its so deeply engraved in Riven's kit that being able to consistently animation cancel is her core strength - a strength that people with bad ping cannot utilize.

ElJanitorFrankJun 17, 20153 votes

Uh, what? If your ping is not consistent, you have extremely unreliable internet connection and it has nothing to do with location relative to the server.

If you have a consistently high ping, you can still animation cancel just as well as anybody else.

BiffoloJun 16, 20157 votes

Alistars wq combo wasn't meant to be there, yet they balanced around it and rightfully so. It makes the champion more unique and adds options.

YumaS2AstralJun 16, 20158 votes

But Alistar doesn't burst you down in 2 seconds

BiffoloJun 16, 20154 votes

{quoted}

But Alistar doesn't burst you down in 2 seconds

Ap alistar does even quicker than two seconds. WIth a 70% damage reduction against him. Is ap alistar op?

YumaS2AstralJun 16, 20156 votes

However, Alistar doesn't have mobility, and he actually has a resource to manage: mana.

Also, if Alistar is building AP, he will be useless as a tank for your team, which is how he should be building most of time.

NorthernDruidJun 16, 20155 votes

Alistar's WQ combo is a lot easier to both figure out and learn (it's literally just holding Q after using W).

And more importantly, it's generally a weaker combo than managing to get close by other means and locking them down with Q as you reposition to knock them back with W.

And it doesn't compress how quickly he can use the abilities in sequence (at least not much), only where the target is.

Alistar's combo is also a lot less disruptive of his playstyle, it gives him better engage, something he's already good at, and he sacrifices part of his ability to disrupt the enemy formation in the form of a knockback to do so.

Riven's animation cancelling (at least from what I've heard on the forums, and minorly seen on youtube) disrupts her entire playstyle, turning her from a Sustained DPS Bruiser to a Bursty, Tanky, Assassin.

Alistar still has to play around his limitations when doing his WQ combo, and trades away his peel for the engage he gets. He's still gated as hard by cooldowns and mana as he is when he uses his skills more effectively to knock up an opponent and then reposition to knoeck them into his tower.

Riven has no mana, and is only gated by Cooldowns which scales lower and lower as the game goes on and she builds more CDR and ranks up her W and E.

She is of course allowed to be resourceless and only lightly gated by cooldowns because her kit takes time to unload.

You wouldn't give a 4 sec CD AD scaling resourceless shield which empowers your next attack, to a bursty assassin, but on a sustained dps bruiser it fits well.

Except when she can use a secret trick to unload it in a 4th of the time it usually takes.

Riven is two different champions depending on whether the player knows how to excecute a secret trick or not.

A lot of other champions can be played differently, and can be made to fit drastically different roles. This is a good thing, but other champions do it with builds. Runes, masteries, skill orders items. And some champions can seem totally different in the hands of someone who knows the champion well, and has the right insight in how to use them to their full effect in some weird off-build.

They're played differently, and the opponent can react to whether you're going AP or AD or Blue Ezreal when they see what items you buy.

You can't react to Riven suddenly pressing all her burst into a short window with no penalty to her decision. (And again, while you can't react to Alistar's W suddenly ending with a Q, he at least gives up his knockback to do so, meaning he's shortened his CC on you and can't use it to peel or knock you back into his team/tower)

And you can't know whether Riven's gonna swing at you for an extended period of time, using her mobility to jump around and simply outplay you, or if she's just gonna burst you before you can say "flash or die".

But IMO the worst part of it is that without almost digging up the info (or atleast catching on to the debate on the subject here on Boards/Reddit/whatever), you don't even know that you can use an exploit to severely alter the nature of the champion. I know I wouldn't have gotten Riven if I thought I had no chance to ever learn her properly.

I find it especially disconcerting that Riven is (IIRC) in the pre-6 rotation on at least EUNE. Because a champion semi-reliant on a secret exploit to be effective is definatively intuitive and forgiving to play as...

SquarefighterJun 17, 20153 votes

IMO the Ali W+Q is one of the stronkest combos in the game.

The Bearded BardJun 16, 20157 votes

Agreed. It doesn't even take long to figure out. I always thought it was a ping issue when I couldn't fire out abilities like other people playing Riven, but it takes three minutes to learn from a youtube video.