Please make Rivens Q cooldown start after her third Q

IsIsGankedParis·Jun 14, 2015·156 votes·7,114 views

This way she actually has to choose using her Q a little more wisely, rather than have it to zone you for 8ish seconds then have it back up in 6...

166 Comments

OhthePiplupJun 14, 201572 votes

"The riven community backlash would be horrible"

# Veigar neverforgetneverforgive

Saminus MaximusJun 14, 201544 votes

[{quoted}](name=Boku no Pokemon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bs2qO9qx,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-06-14T19:18:22.731+0000)

"The riven community backlash would be horrible"

# neverforgetneverforgive

Problem is there are nowhere near as many veigar players as there are riven players. BUT US VEIGARS SHALL STICK TOGETHER. http://img.pandawhale.com/post-29513-there-are-dozens-like-us-gif-I-NYgW.gif

Spicy RiceJun 14, 201510 votes

BROTHERS IN ARMS!

PopePancakeJun 14, 20156 votes

TO ARMS MEN!

KekOfTheFinestJun 15, 20155 votes

THIS IS SPARTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Spicy RiceJun 15, 20154 votes

VICTOOOOOOORRRYYYY!

Salt and VeigarJun 15, 20156 votes

LOK'TAR OGAR

LordGeovanniJun 15, 20152 votes

Valar Morghulis. VALAR DOHAERIS!

Chespin2013Jun 15, 20153 votes

FOR GNARNIA!

LadyRenlyJun 14, 201531 votes

I don't even play Riven. This board's Riven hate is truly nauseating.

IsIsGankedParisJun 14, 201525 votes

They hate her because of how disgustingly unbalanced she is, she has never been truly weak except on release before some hot fixes.

Things people hate about Riven:

Q cooldown starts on first Q, don't like that.

Gets rewarded with tankiness for building AD.

Resourceless.

Has 2 forms of hard CC.

Animation cancelling giving her way too much hidden power, basically she can hit u with 3 Q's and 3 empowered autos within 1.5 seconds, disgusting to lane against that.

She can animation cancel all of her spells which is another thing they don't like.

And to cake it off they hate Riven mains that say she is hard to play and every little nerf(5 movespeed nerf) is a gutting.

FooDangJun 14, 201518 votes

Do you even Riven?

AnidanJun 14, 201529 votes

She isn't rewarded tankiness for building AD. She's awarded a larger shield by building it's scaling stat. The shield does come with a dash, yes, BUT that shield only lasts 1.5 seconds. Just hold onto your abilities 1.5 seconds, assuming she doesn't use her shield just to dash to you at all. If you do that, you negate anything her shield could have done for her. She is not rewarded with tankiness for building an offensive stat, she's rewarded for good reactions so she can stay in the fight longer. That sounds pretty normal.

And wasn't Riven based on fighting game characters? Animation cancels seem right up her alley, to me. Riven is innately risky, and that's despite 2 separate abilities for mobility (4 instances of mobility total). She HAS to be in your face to do damage, barring her ult. She can be kited, and hard CC/silences make life a bitch for her moreso than many other champions because if Riven can't cast, she will absolutely die with her squishy self. So much for that 'tankiness via offensive stats,' right?

Currently the only champion in the game who is directly rewarded tankiness via offensive stats is Vladimir. Jax has it during his ult, Riven gets it very briefly through her shield. Hell, if we're going make that the measure, then we should all be saying that Orianna is rewarded with tankiness for building her offensive stat, too, right? And hell, she's ranged, to boot! And what about Diana, am I right? Mage fighter who's rewarded tankiness via her main offensive stat? What a bitch! Hell, let's take this one step further: Nautilus and Sion get bigger shields for building up their tankiness! What kind of bullshit is that?! Tankiness on top of tankiness! Clearly Riot is playing favorites.

Or, alternatively: They all need their shields to function for their job. Riven wants to be in protracted fights but she has no sustain built in to her kit (no, an item that anyone else can buy does not count into her sustain), so she needs a shield to offset her extremely squishy self and allow her to actually be there in the first place. Diana wants to be in protracted fights as well, so she also gets a shield. Difference being that AP itemization actually allows her to build tankier than Riven while still outputting respectable damage. Nautilus and Sion are all completely front-line champions, through and through: They want to be in your face, and have methods to get there. The longer they're in your face the happier they are. The shields let them sustain through the fight since they lack other forms of durability, like passive/active armor or magic resistance.

Also, her two forms of hard CC are extremely short lived. They're important, don't get me wrong, but they're fairly short-lived and both can only be active in a very small radius around her.

This Board is blowing Riven out of proportion so hard that I expect a personified version of it to look like Captain Ahab chasing down a white whale named "Riven." The key here is to remember that Ahab died chasing that whale. The boards don't look like they're going to be much more successful in chasing theirs.

ChaoticPineconeJun 14, 201510 votes

Very few AD bruisers, assassins, or carries have a shield (I can only think of Jarvan and Lee Sin). Neither have the burst or sustained DPS that Riven does, and neither of their shields scale off of AD. Also, not many shields in this game come to a 6 second cooldown at max rank. She is naturally tankier through her normal buildpath than other melee AD champions, and its not like she does less damage than them either.

Tanks getting tankier with shields is fine - it allows them to function better in their role. In the same vein, Utility carries that have scaling stats is fine - it allows them to function better in their role. What is Riven's role? You cant honestly tell me you choose Riven for her utility, but she has a ton of it for an AD caster-carry who scales so well off damage. And not only does she have utility and damage, she also has many gapclosers in her kit. Once Diana goes into a fight, she is walking back out - but not Riven. Yes, Ori has a scaling shield, but does she have the 1v1 potential that Riven has? Does she have the damage to basically one-combo someone with 1 item? Does she snowball as hard? Does she have as low of a cooldown on her shield? Does she have multiple gapclosers? Is she resourceless?

IMO i hate animation canceling, since its a disadvantage to those who play with high ping. Those with good ping and faster computers are rewarded for animation canceling - something they decided to take out of Lux's kit entirely. Should i be at a disadvantage in game because I live on the East Coast?

Riven's kit has it all - resourceless, gapclosers, AOE, burst, sustained damage, CC, shield, and an execute - the only downside is her range and base stats. after around 2000 gold, its either "stay far enough away so she cant go near you with her 4 gapclosers" or "let her kill you".

AnidanJun 15, 201518 votes

I think you skimmed my argument for her shield. She isn't any tankier than anyone else through her build path. All she has is a very brief shield that's meant to dodge damage, or dodge skillshots, already headed her way. That's some form of tankiness, yes, but if she doesn't have it she will die outright. She is very, very squishy thanks to her build path, ergo she needs her shield.

"After around 2000 gold, its either 'stay far enough away so she can't go near you with her 4 gapclosers" or "let her kill you." That is a false dichotomy. You have plenty of other options, but you're narrowing it down to two because of... what exactly? Who are you playing that suddenly can't fight Riven after presumably a Tiamat? Most people that can't fight her tend to help their team more than her. She's a deceptive fighter because you think she has all the range in the world, but if she is using all 4 gap closers then all she has left is her auto-attacks and her stun, and if you're losing to only that as most champions then what were you doing while she was farming? You should have about 2000 gold toward your build, too.

And no, Orianna does not snowball as hard, nor is the cooldown on her shield as short, nor is she resourceless, nor have multiple gap closers. Now, what does Orianna gain for not having those? Much better teamfighting, better play from behind (if Riven is behind, she STAYS behind against a competent team), range, and the ability to farm despite being zoned, and better utility. Orianna doesn't duel as well as Riven, and she doesn't snowball as hard, however if she does snowball then she will take your whole damn team for a ride instead of one person at a time. Riven's utility is directly tied to an enemy team's inability to spread out a bit, which is generally a good strategy in the first place. I rarely see Riven land even a two-man stun/knock-up, so her utility isn't actually that great. In addition, both the stun and the knock-up are fairly short-lived, as mentioned before. Riven has dueling utility, she doesn't have teamfight utility.

If Riven cannot kill you in her burst, she will very likely die. She is not durable without her shield, and if she used it to get into your face, then she doesn't have it to take a hit for her. If she didn't use it to get in your face then she likely used 1-3 uses of her Q to get into your face, which means her burst will be weaker. If she didn't require either to get in your face, you were likely already fighting her, so you should anticipate her E, just like you should anticipate the Dodging of Jax, and his tanky stats from ult.

ChaoticPineconeJun 15, 20157 votes

first of all, my dichotomy is an obvious exaggeration, but good to know youre putting those fallacies to use. I can list a bunch that youre using, but i wont (the list is too long). There are many situations that COULD POSSIBLY happen, but against good rivens you either keep her down (by severely outplaying her, or getting mutiple jungle ganks) or she kills you. Unless youre playing Xerath or something top lane, most other top-laners have get into short range to get CS. youre practically forced to fight her, which is where she shines.

your argument for her shield was a horrible one, as i pointed out - she is the sole champion in the game (correct me if im wrong) that has an AD scaling shield. Why does someone with so much damage have an AD scaling shield that doubles as a gapcloser (putting the shield to use for trades) or an escape (again, putting that shield to use)? Not one other champion in the game has an AD scaling shield, and its not like she does mediocre damage to compensate.

once she gets a tiamat, a GOOD riven becomes a nightmare. As you probably know, Riven's strength is tied to animation canceling, and with a tiamat you have 3 animation canceling tactics - your tiamat active, your trinket ward, and your E. Doing so allows you to get your entire burst (with ult) in during the shield duration.

and if riven doesnt kill you with her burst, she will continue to autoattack (passive, remember?) then run away when her E is back on cooldown. You can turn and fight - but after all that burst + 3 passive and ult empowered autos after, do you really want to? You know her next combo is just around the corner. If you build squishy, she will kill you with her burst. if you build tanky, she cant one-combo you, but you cant kill her either.

AnidanJun 15, 201510 votes

You know what? Fuck it, I'm tired at this point. Nobody is going to change their minds over an argument on a forum. Everyone wants to believe [x fotm champion] is so overpowered so I might as well let them. Not like anyone who has ever hated a champion will ever hate them less because a person will defend them. Every champion that has ever been strong has been hated. Every champion in this entire game has been hated as a result. Riven isn't the first, nor will she be the last, victim of some forum-related circlejerk that calls for nerfs because the denizens of the boards can't even come to a consensus of what "balanced" even means in this game, less yet can we, as a whole, define a specific champion as "balanced" right now. Amusingly, almost half the roster has had a mass grouping of people call for their nerfs. When you put that into perspective, it's hard to take repeated claims of any champion being broken seriously when half of the rest are called that exact same thing.

We can argue all we want, but our arguments don't even matter to the people who do matter.

ChaoticPineconeJun 15, 20156 votes

"fuck it" indeed. apparently you cant have a solid argument based on sound reasoning.

FórsaJun 15, 20155 votes

Nice rofl about arguments. Just calm your butthurt about Riven and play correctly vs her.

ChaoticPineconeJun 15, 20154 votes

buthurt?

im providing logical reasoning. apparently that goes over some people's heads.

NemeBroJun 15, 20157 votes

{quoted}

buthurt?

im providing logical reasoning. apparently that goes over some people's heads.

Are you? I think Socrates might disagree with your use of rhetoric.

Riven was fairly recently nerfed and sports a win rate that is basically okay in plat and up. She hard counters a few champions such as Vlad, but also has her share of strong counters as well. Her burst is respectable, but against a Darius building armour he will out-burst her... And deal better sustained damage due to his passive. Same with Renekton (well, she probably deals better sustained damage), who also actually has sustain. And is also mobile (if not to the same extent), while being far tankier.

What about Riven bothers you so much, my son?

ChaoticPineconeJun 15, 20155 votes

I can tell you have never thoroughly read Plato - he rarely engaged in logical reasoning to come to a decisive answer. Aristole was the logical reasoner. Socrates went around showing people how wrong they were. Also, Socrates dealt with Sophist rhetoric, which was much more about persuasion and 'sounding good' without logical premises - for example, using words like 'denizen' to make others think youre smart while using the words in the wrong context, or saying 'your opinion doesnt matter anyways' to close your argument.

I have backed my claims with facts - i have stated that Riven is the one AD champion (and again, please let me know if im wrong) who has an AD scaling shield. I have stated why i believe there is an unfair advantage of animation canceling based on ping and location.

A good riven (or scripting riven) can put out massive amounts of burst by pressing the right buttons are the right times, barring things like ping or CPU strength. I wont argue that she has too much DPS, since her Q, passive, and ult seem to indicate that she is supposed to be a caster-DPSer, as does her chase/catch potential and her CC.

now put that into a kit that snowballs extremely hard, is a early-game lane bully, scales pretty well in terms of damage and survivability, and has only CDR-restricted mobility.

NemeBroJun 15, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I can tell you have never thoroughly read Plato - he rarely engaged in logical reasoning to come to a decisive answer. Aristole was the logical reasoner. Socrates went around showing people how wrong they were. Also, Socrates dealt with Sophist rhetoric, which was much more about persuasion and 'sounding good' without logical premises - for example, using words like 'denizen' to make others think youre smart while using the words in the wrong context, or saying 'your opinion doesnt matter anyways' to close your argument.

I have backed my claims with facts - i have stated that Riven is the one AD champion (and again, please let me know if im wrong) who has an AD scaling shield. I have stated why i believe there is an unfair advantage of animation canceling based on ping and location.

A good riven (or scripting riven) can put out massive amounts of burst by pressing the right buttons are the right times, barring things like ping or CPU strength. I wont argue that she has too much DPS, since her Q, passive, and ult seem to indicate that she is supposed to be a caster-DPSer, as does her chase/catch potential and her CC.

now put that into a kit that snowballs extremely hard, is a early-game lane bully, scales pretty well in terms of damage and survivability, and has only CDR-restricted mobility.

Yes, that was the joke.

Yep, she does indeed have an AD scaling shield. And?

Some champions can put out similar burst without needing to animation cancel, while being sturdier. Like Darius for example, or a Renekton using his fury-empowered W. In fact, Renekton's combo is quicker than Riven's, and his escape is faster. He is also tankier. So what is the problem with Riven?

I'm reading your post, but I'm not seeing any evidence on your part that would indicate Riven is in any way broken or overpowered.

NemeBroJun 15, 20154 votes

{quoted}

How was that a joke? Because im not using Sophist rhetoric? Because Socrates disagreed with everything? Because Socrates as we know it is a fictional character based off Plato's teacher, so we have no idea what the historical figure would agree or disagree with?

No other AD champion with a shield has an AD scaling shield. Why do you think that is? Why do you think other AD champions are gated with AP scaling (or flat scaling) shields?

Darius has a problem with kiting, since he has no mobility. Renekton has a similar problem, though not as severe. Renekton and Darius arent that much sturdier than Riven without items. Darius doesnt actually burst as hard. Renekton doesnt have AoE CC, and only bursts as hard if built glass cannon (where the pitfalls of low-mobility make it non-viable). Darius only has one AoE CC. Renekton doesnt have execute damage. Darius uses mana. Renekton has to manage his rage bar.

and im not saying that she is broken. Im listing the reasons why she is horribly designed compared to the rest of the champions.

Yes, I am aware that Riven has the only AD scaling shield, just as I am aware that Ashe is the only ADC whose basic attacks constantly provide a slowing effect, and that Irelia is the only champion that is passively immune to CC. Riven has a neat toy she has that no other champion gets. And?

Yep he does. If Darius had mobility he would be absurdly strong. Renekton isn't, good catch, but know what both have in common? Against Riven, they start cloth 5.

Doesn't he? In the time Riven's full combo takes when animation canceled (about two seconds), Darius can AA>W>AA>AA>Q>R about as quickly and dealing more damage. Especially if done to a champion as squishy as Riven.

Ah, you misunderstood. I probably didn't make this clear enough. I'm not saying that Renekton or Darius can burst as hard at full build as Riven can at full build (though Darius might come close). It would be pretty absurd if they did more damage than a champion building solely damage, ya know? No, I am saying that in lane against each other, Darius/Renekton deal greater burst damage to Riven than Riven does to them. Garen deals less burst damage by contrast, but much more sustained damage and takes even less punishment than they do.

Renekton's stun isn't AOE, but it lasts twice as long if used properly (50% fury). He doesn't have an AOE knockup or execute damage, no, but what he does have is hybrid damage due to his ult, solid health sustain, and a tank steroid with his ult. Oh and by the way, why do you say Renekton has low mobility? He has less than Riven, but the actual distance his dash carries him is only about 200 units less than Riven's, and is faster. The only big drawback it has is a fairly long CD. But unlike Riven, if Renekton uses all his mobility to chase he still has the means to do damage. Riven would have to use literally all of her Q's and her E to chase further than Renekton's double E, but once she gets there she can only W, AA, or use her ult if she has it. It's a huge waste of her power.

Darius' one AOE CC also covers more than Riven's and is instantaneous, as in, you can flash away and still be pulled in once it's cast. His base damages are high enough early on that even with a cloth five start Darius is going to be dealing heavy damage. He has that luxury. Riven doesn't. Darius also gets passive armour shred on everything by leveling his E, and Riven doesn't.

Oh, and you can't really try to twist Renekton's rage bar as a weakness, lol. All the rage bar means is that if the Renekton player knows how to use it he can be even MORE powerful. Want to crush that pesky enemy Riven's health bar? Then use that empowered W! Want to heal bunches of health while smacking your enemy in the face? Use your empowered Q! Want to shred your opponent's armour (I mean if you want to idk man it's your life)? Then use your empowered E I guess. Renekton's rage bar (which is ultimately inexhaustible) gives him options, and is by no means a weakness.

Maybe man (I don't really give much of a shit about debates on whether or not a champ is well-designed), but why? What about her kit is poorly designed? Is having an AD-scaling shield inherently bad for some reason?

NemeBroJun 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

i beg to differ.. for one... animation cancelling isnt useful for anybody but riven... 2.. she feels like u have little to no counterplay when u r countered by her.. she has a very suppressive all in combo.

Any ADC who needs to kite benefits from animation canceling.

Who do you feel is getting countered by Riven to the point where you have no counterplay? I don't know if you noticed, but none of Riven's abilities are point and click.

AnidanJun 15, 20158 votes

You and several other people have demonstrated that a sound argument is not what you're after. You take a point and shoot it down, and somehow that makes you right instead of both of us potentially wrong.

Listen: Here's the quick and dirty: She isn't broken. She is risky, because that is outright what her kit wants her to be. She does, however, have to have a fallback for her risk, but that fallback won't save her from everything - only what little she can make it save her from, if her situation even allows for it to save her at all.

If she blows EVERYTHING on you, then you blow EVERYTHING on her in return. I don't see how a short-lived shield changes that unless you just like taking damage for nothing. If she bursted you during the period her shield is up then she doesn't have that shield for your retaliation, a point that I already made before. Yes, she's hitting you with her auto-attacks, but now it's your turn to dictate the direction of the fight, and if you're unwilling after her combo then that's not her problem nor is it mine. Yes a GOOD Riven is a nightmare, but so is a GOOD anything.

Her shield is her only line of safety. If she doesn't have it, then she's done. If it's small, she'll only ever use it for the animation cancel because she won't build tanky enough for its mediocre base shielding to matter except when running away, because in a duel it'd get chunked instantly. Her defensive tool is no stronger than the defensive tool of any other melee carry-esque champion.

And you're right, she does shine in skirmishes that can happen a lot in top lane while you're CSing! Y'know... like a lane bully. Which she is. She's a lane bully that wants to snowball so she can be relevant. She can go even with you, but that will diminish her effectiveness greatly come the teamfighting stage where she'll want to press her advantage on you the most, because that's where she mostly badly needs an advantage. So as a result, she has to bully you and attempt to get ahead. This is where your play comes in, and you keep her down or she kills you, as you said.

And you're right again: She is the sole champion with an AD-Scaling shield. Now, as to why someone needs that shield, that also doubles as a gap-closer? Because again, she's extremely squishy and has no other built-in form of sustain. Even her hp/5 is utter garbage, so damage that isn't absorbed by the shield sticks for a very long time. The battle of lane attrition is not one she can win. Her shield early isn't great, and it isn't leveled first or even second most of the time. Poke/disengage champions greatly impact her ability to snowball as a result, because they can poke her so much that her shield can seem useless to her (even if it doesn't to you) and she can't stay on them to force a fight. Or alternatively, you could love the melee brawl just as much as her in the early game, like Garen or Darius, and break the shield without even caring because, again, early on the shield is small and her base stats are nothing to write home about. And the poke/disengage champion, nor the people who love to brawl it out start losing after Tiamat, either. She has to have the shield because if she doesn't she sits with no defense but with a dangerous fighting playstyle.

Her damage is part of her power budget, as are her methods of safety. However, if she's using her abilities for safety she sacrifices her damage. She has the scaling shield despite her large damage potential because she has to be in the middle of the entire enemy team during a teamfight, and she doesn't tend to build any tanky items until later in the game. Because she's in the middle of the enemy team and expected to actually accomplish something, she needs a built-in form of defense (See also: Jax dodge/ult, Poppy Ult, Olaf ult, Tryndamere ult, Fiora ult, Yi W, Q untargetability, Fizz Troll Pole, Akali stealth, Aatrox revive, Garen W, Mao ult, and the list goes on). If you take away her scaling shield, what does she have? A mediocre (90 base at rank 1, 210 base at rank 5) shield with a short dash on a melee champion that has to be in the middle of the enemy team with no defensive stats. Do you know what we call that kind of champion in League? DRT. Because upon being caught in the middle of the team with her squishy build that will actually let her kill someone with a shield that small, she will be dead right there.

It'd be much harder to explain, in a rational manner, why she wouldn't need a large, brief shield with her playstyle. Again, emphasis on its brevity. Every single melee champion in this game has some sort of safety mechanism to allow them to function, whether it be sustain or damage reduction of some kind - they need it. The only exceptions to that rule right now are Darius, Kha'Zix, Amumu and Zed. And of them, you could actually argue Kha'zix's position on there since his W can heal, but it's very situational. Now, of that list, Darius dunks squishies even harder than Riven if he can get his hands on them, and has a playstyle that is regarded as anti-melee because of his extreme close-range dueling capacity on a base level, meaning he had to take a hit somewhere; Kha'zix is a reset-oriented assassin who doesn't want to be in the middle of the fight anyway; Amumu is played as a tank due to his very high team disruption capabilities and excellent bases damages, meaning his durability took a bit of a hit for those enormous strengths; and Zed has extreme safety and damage with no CC or built-in sustain to speak of. Of those 4, Zed and and Kha'zix do not tend to want to be in the middle of the fight for the same reason, being their playstyle, while Darius and Amumu do because of theirs. Riven wants to be in the middle of the teamfight as well, because unless she can flank she has no other option open to her than to push through the front-line. However, unlike Amumu she doesn't boast huge disruption capabilities, and unlike Darius she doesn't boast very good base damages (her bases of 270 on a full Broken Wings combo (unlikely in a teamfight), and 170 on Ki Burst are the opposite of impressive bases, with her other two abilities being a steroid that scales off her AD, for encouragement to build it, and a mediocre shield), so she needs the shield to encourage her to pull off that risky playstyle in the middle of the teamfight. If she didn't have that large shield, her teamfighting would be even worse. A tanky Riven isn't scary in the damage department, and a squishy Riven is only ever a squishy Riven unless she blocks your skills, and even then it's unlikely to be more than one skill, and the shield doesn't invalidate it entirely in the event you're pulling off a combo.

NemeBroJun 15, 20158 votes

{quoted} Of those 4, Zed and and Kha'zix do not tend to want to be in the middle of the fight for the same reason, being their playstyle, while Darius and Amumu do because of theirs.

A bit off-topic, but IMO Darius doesn't really want to be in the middle of the enemy team in team fights. I think he works best as a peeler for the squishy damage dealers on the team. He's fairly tanky due to the way he builds, but he's not really a tank.

Other than that I agree. Riven hate is overblown (and no I don't play her).

AnidanJun 15, 20154 votes

Ah, fair point. I didn't even consider that during my post, but that is a great thing to point out, thank you. I imagine he would enjoy being in the middle of their team a bit more if he had just a little bit more mobility or something to get his hands on that carry with the vulnerable neck. But, everyone sacrifices in some way, even if that way isn't immediately obvious, no? :)

ChaoticPineconeJun 15, 20153 votes

Im shooting you down and providing counterarguments. Thats hardly shooting you down and thinking im right. Im providing arguments why I am right - and youre free to show me how im wrong. Youre choosing to ignore what im actually doing just to make a few snide remarks.
Her shield may be her only 'safety' (mobility and CC isnt considered safety anymore?), but what makes her so special? Jarvans non AD scaling shield is his only safety, but generally builds tankier since his shield pales in comparison to Rivens. And i use Jarvan as an example since they are both top lane bullies who rely on burst and sustained DPS to win fights. You can list melee AD carries or autoattacking champions who have more in-built safety, but none of them can burst as hard as riven without 6 items or crit. Other melee AD champions that are bursty as riven and have a similar playstle (like jarvan, wukong, pantheon, and lee sin) are forced into the dilemma of building tank or damage - riven gets both from just damage. And just like a tanky riven, none of those champions are scary in damage.

NemeBroJun 15, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Im shooting you down and providing counterarguments. Thats hardly shooting you down and thinking im right. Im providing arguments why I am right - and youre free to show me how im wrong. Youre choosing to ignore what im actually doing just to make a few snide remarks.

Her shield may be her only 'safety' (mobility and CC isnt considered safety anymore?), but what makes her so special? Jarvans non AD scaling shield is his only safety, but generally builds tankier since his shield pales in comparison to Rivens. And i use Jarvan as an example since they are both top lane bullies who rely on burst and sustained DPS to win fights. You can list melee AD carries or autoattacking champions who have more in-built safety, but none of them can burst as hard as riven without 6 items or crit. Other melee AD champions that are bursty as riven and have a similar playstle (like jarvan, wukong, pantheon, and lee sin) are forced into the dilemma of building tank or damage - riven gets both from just damage. And just like a tanky riven, none of those champions are scary in damage.

Jarvan has better team fight crowd control than Riven does. Even from behind, his ult can change the course of a team fight. A Riven that's behind is sort of useless. Oh, his shield also applies a slow. He also doesn't need as much AD to deal damage, due to his Q's armour shred (which is also good for team fights, obviously). He also has far better poke than she does. They're different champions, with different strengths.

The same is true of Wukong. Wukong also scales far better. His ultimate is one of the single strongest in the entire game. Tank Wukong deals way more damage than tank Riven.

Pantheon is an even bigger bully than Riven with literally no way of avoiding his harass, lol.

No comment on Lee Sin. He's a better jungler than a laner.

Joe DreddJun 15, 20154 votes

you literally proved you don't know jack shit with that last sentence. If she blows her skills just getting to you then you still have all of your skills up then you win the fight unless you're just bad

ChaoticPineconeJun 15, 20154 votes

Very few toplaners have the burst to 100-0 anybody, of course excluding the particular champion we are talking about.

"you win the fight" is highly overexaggerated. She can use her entire combo to burst you down, back off (and even take some damage in return) but then burst you again in 10 seconds. Champions with both burst, sustained damage, and gapclosers are highly talked about - look at Ekko.

and she doesnt need to gapclose with her abilities. As a toplaner, very few have the benefit of ranged waveclear. either you get into melee range to autoattack the wave, or willingly let someone like riven faceroll you.

Joe DreddJun 15, 20155 votes

Riven won't burst you 100-0 unless you've already fed her. And yes, you do win the fight.

FistOfSharkieshaJun 15, 20153 votes

It's not hate, her early game is absurdly oppressive. She has only 2 hard counters in the game, Udyr and Pantheon, and they don't get the lvl 6 power spike she does. There's just no way to properly deal with a Riven. She's the safest blind pick in the game. She shouldn't have a massive shield scaling off AD, 4 gap closer/escapes, a stun and knockup, ranged nuke, steroid, passive bonus damage, and be resourceless.

NemeBroJun 15, 20156 votes

{quoted}

It's not hate, her early game is absurdly oppressive. She has only 2 hard counters in the game, Udyr and Pantheon, and they don't get the lvl 6 power spike she does. There's just no way to properly deal with a Riven. She's the safest blind pick in the game. She shouldn't have a massive shield scaling off AD, 4 gap closer/escapes, a stun and knockup, ranged nuke, steroid, passive bonus damage, and be resourceless.

You didn't even list her hardest counters: Garen Renekton

Plenty of other champions counter her as well: Fiora Quinn Tryndamere Olaf

And many champions that don't counter her can just safely farm and outscale her.

Riven isn't even that hard. I really don't understand how people have so many issues against her. Even as Yorick, who she surprisingly counters, I have no real issue surviving and outscaling her.

edit: also, I should probably clarify that just because someone "counters" someone that doesn't mean you should instantly be able to win against them. That would be stupid and lame.

FistOfSharkieshaJun 15, 20151 votes

That's why I said hard counter. Garen's damage is so pathetic and his kit is so predictable that a good Riven can shield and dash away before taking hardly any damage. Renekton only counters her by having basically equal trades but better sustain, but this forces him to push the lane horribly, leaving him open for the jungler. Fiora and Quinn countering Riven is laughable, and Trynd only counters her at 6 but Riven can still dash away.

NemeBroJun 15, 20154 votes

{quoted}

That's why I said hard counter. Garen's damage is so pathetic and his kit is so predictable that a good Riven can shield and dash away before taking hardly any damage. Renekton only counters her by having basically equal trades but better sustain, but this forces him to push the lane horribly, leaving him open for the jungler. Fiora and Quinn countering Riven is laughable, and Trynd only counters her at 6 but Riven can still dash away.

Garen's damage is so pathetic that his abilities have higher bases and ratios than Riven's (her passive helps bridge the gap though). Early game, Garen does more damage to Riven than Riven does to him (due to being innately and building tankier), and he actually has sustain. Oh, and she's an AD caster, so his silence allows him to win trades. And then kill her.

Sorry, but you're just plain wrong on this one. Garen is Riven's hardest counter, and no amount of QQ'ing will change that.

Do we live in a world where Riven's main trading tools are not AOE? She also pushes the wave, and much like with Garen, Renekton's tankiness allows him to win trades with Riven, who is squishy, easily.

Not laughable. Accurate. Fiora wins a duel with Riven at any stage of the game. Her bases are higher, her scaling is better, and she has sustain. Her lack of escape if a jungler comes to gank is her only issue. Quinn does what she does to all melees.

Tryndamere can easily kill Riven at level 2. Even if he doesn't kill her, she probably has to back, which puts Tryndamere ahead. Tryndamere also scales so much better than Riven.

magic poleJun 15, 20153 votes

jinx has an absurdly oppressive late game. let's make each AA as fishbones cost 50mana so she has to use it more wisely instead of just having a ranged aoe critable auto attack always available.!

also, vladimir has an absurdly oppressive laning phase. He has a moving zhonya's; how unfair and ungankable he is!! Let's give his W a 50s second cool down so he has to think about using it wisely. Also, his Q makes it so that you can't even trade with him! either remove its damage or its heal.

tl;dr: these champions are so absurdly op bc i don't know how to deal with them :( please gut them

ReikkenJun 14, 201519 votes

but she'd need buffs somewhere to compensate

khorneyJun 14, 201515 votes

{quoted}

but she'd need buffs somewhere to compensate

no she wouldnt need buffs. having to actually decide when to do things vices just doing them doesnt warrent buffs

Lord DusteonJun 14, 201533 votes

{quoted}

no she wouldnt need buffs. having to actually decide when to do things vices just doing them doesnt warrent buffs

Adding at least 4 seconds of cooldown to her bread and butter skill doesn't require buffs? If Riven was utterly dominating everything all the time I might agree, but this is a literal gutting of her damage.

Shadow GilgameshJun 14, 20152 votes

Either she should lose having her damage on short cooldowns, or she should lose the animation canceling that lets her get off her damage at assassin speed while having bruiser CDs

AbyssphereJun 14, 201513 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shadow Gilgamesh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bs2qO9qx,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-14T19:12:36.032+0000)

Either she should lose having her damage on short cooldowns, or she should lose the animation canceling that lets her get off her damage at assassin speed while having bruiser CDs

You realise this change puts more power into her animation cancelling because doing that causes the CD to come up way quicker, right? The people least affected by this change are the ones using her animation cancelling to get her combo off as quickly as possible. You're hurting the people who don't do that more.

FooDangJun 14, 201518 votes

Why do people hate Riven? I think it's fun to lane against her. It's not a boring lane.

PæanJun 14, 20152 votes

The only time I have had fun vs a riven is when I'm shen or braum and am starting with 70 or more armor. Otherwise she level 1 or 2 cheeses you down to 10% hp

FooDangJun 14, 201512 votes

So you know she is going to try and lvl 2 cheese you...and you still get cheesed to 10%?

PæanJun 14, 20151 votes

Unless I have a free mobility spell like a Gnar E then it is really hard to escape from riven without using flash. Especially considering she has a knock up and a stun and if the riven is somewhat decent at animation cancelling then she will get a lot of damage off in very little time.

FooDangJun 14, 20159 votes

You make it sound like shes OP...its not hard to lane vs Riven...it's risky, but its not hard.

PæanJun 14, 20152 votes

It's not that hard, but it is so much more stressful than most any other matchup. If you mess up, you are probably dead or using flash, if she messes up it is hard to punish her with such small windows of weakness. Especially since most rivens get 10% or more cdr from runes and masteries lvl 1

Rito PonytailJun 14, 201517 votes

Have you ever seen a Riven if her whole burst can't stop the enemies around her? She dies in seconds. Go ahead and bitch about her but if she loses her damage potential she will turn into a new Kassadin .

OffNote: Riven Doesn't have invulnerability, nor any long range poke/large escapes. You want a Riven to have a 13 second cooldown on her main damage ability + be able to do nothing in the middle of an enemy team after her Q is used...