Just had a lee sin feed mid twice trying to gank. He didn't warn me behind, I didn't even see him since the part of the map he was on was hidden. Apparently, through some twisted logic, I'm the one to blame for not winning against a 3 - 0 - 0 Talon when he fed off 2 players on my team.
TheJakeinator10 votesExplain to me how you could not see your own Lee Sin on your own map.
jpguy9021 votes^ This
SexyBabyJesusZ5 votesis your mini map disabled???????????
Hallbuster1 votesI look at my minimap every 5 minutes. I can't always keep an eye out when I'm trying my best to last hit. The time it took him to gank and die was approximately 10 seconds.
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Kilanost2 votesEvery 5 minutes???? You need to be looking at that shit every 5 seconds minimum when you don't know where people are on the enemy team.
PlsCheckThisBush5 votesI'm looking at the OP.GG right now and I can assure you it wasn't entirely Lee Sin's fault.
You had the lowest Kill Participation on the team at 29% as Vladimir as well as the lowest KDA (0.67:1). You also rushed an incompleted Fiendish Codex and Spirit Visage when their team had 0 AP damage champions (aside from Taric's E) - they were all AD. While the CDR, Health, and Bonus Healing is nice and synergizes well with Vladimir's kit, it doesn't help you survive as much as, say, a Zhonya's Hourglass would have. You also dropped the second lowest amount of wards at 3, only beaten by your Yasuo Top who put down 2. Neither of you bought a SINGLE Control Ward (Pink) throughout the entire game. You also didn't upgrade your boots until 20 minutes into the game, which is normally fine, however a Ninja Tabi would have saved you a TON of damage. Your support Brand did over DOUBLE your damage, put over DOUBLE your wards, bought a Pink, denied 4 Wards (you denied 0), and maintained the same gold income as you despite having 26 CS to your 94.
I would suggest you look at these things in your games, and try to play around your winning lanes next time.
Also, try looking at your minimap between EVERY CS, not every 5 minutes. Go into Practice Mode, Custom Games, or vs. AI if you need to practice looking at the map while CS'ing.
YoungSirJ0ey1 votesWow. Doing half the damage of Braum Support as Vlad? That's just pathetic.
Paquay1 votes
Malfectious1 votesI would love to have you do this for my last few matches....What a great breakdown...
PlsCheckThisBush2 votesI would love to have you do this for my last few matches....What a great breakdown...
Sure! Sorry in advance for the long-winded post, by the way!
Your builds are actually on point - as well the person you duo-queue with often. I really like that you're willing to build defensive items after your core, you understand how a core build works as well as itemization against champions and that's great! It really just boils down to decision making, game knowledge (i.e. Blitzcrank's Q cooldown is 20 seconds at Rank 1 with no CDR, he's super vulnerable after that, etc.), and mechanics (last-hitting, skill-shots, etc.).
You do VERY well with ability-based champions like Heimer and Vel'Koz, and your map awareness is pretty great! You also have very low deaths compared to your teammates and enemy team which is really good, it's very difficult to overcome a large lead. There was an Irelia game I was able to spectate (sorry I couldn't see any others, op.gg only saved that one for some reason ._.), and I LOVED that you took time out of your day to watch what was going on Bot Lane and TP down to help out with the Tower Dive. You also tanked the turret and didn't drop aggro until you were certain your teammates were safe, which is beautiful - thank you for being a team player! The enemy jungler seemed to really like camping you even though you were playing safe (she sat in the bush for god knows how long while 4 of her camps were alive and you played safe under turret), and your jungler didn't want to respond (he executed to Krugs at level 2 as Graves, and then died to their jungler at Blue, he seemed to be having a really rough time - he could have easily invaded the enemy jungle's opposite side at least). That would have definitely been an easy double kill and would have stopped Kled from getting going. For some reason your jungler also seemed to visit the lanes only for minions (tax) rather than being proactive and counter-ganking. He didn't put it in a good position for you either, when he visited he essentially screwed you over by half-ass pushing the wave and letting it freeze just in front of the enemy tower. I also noticed when you had nothing to do (your lane was pushed and the laner was either MIA or had a freeze near their turret) you went to farm a jungle camp or two, which is wonderful - you're making good use of your time! You also Warded really smartly, when Vayne was top sitting in the bush forever, you didn't auto-push the wave, you sat under your turret and let the minions come to you, and when you finally had a minion advantage pushing you warded the bush she was sitting in to be sure she's still not there - that's great! Safety first.
My only suggestions would be to keep doing what you're doing, while using your warding trinket more or less on-cooldown in smart spots, and perhaps buy a Control Ward (Pink) or two here and there when you've got a few extra gold and you don't have one down yet :). Also, don't be afraid to flex your powerspikes when you have them! You look like a solid player, perhaps just a little afraid of going in on your opponents. Which is absolutely fine if you're not 100% certain that you can win the fight, better safe than sorry. Try not to use your Flash to gap-close unless you have something you're certain can follow-up (for Irelia, if you can Flash -> E with the stun/slow that works, or even Flash -> Q if you need a LOT of distance). You can queue-up spells by casting them on a champion out of range and while your champion is running towards them, you can Flash (make sure not to enter another command like movement) and it will automatically cast the spell upon entering the range for it. Try it out in the practice tool with cooldown resets so you can get the hang of it and not freeze up. This sort of stuff will come with time, though, and you look like you're doing very well!
Again, I really dig your builds and map awareness, you build a solid core and then pick up the defensive stats you need to survive, keep doing that! Most players that get stuck tend to build one way or the other with the same exact build (either full tank or full damage, usually the latter) and don't properly itemize, but I really like that you're willing to pick those items up. It helps you out quite a bit, makes you a team player, and speaks volumes about your willingness to help. I love your TP plays, it won't be until FAR up in the ranks that people will actually match your TP, and even then they're usually late to the fight and you can clean them up (or they cancel, now they wasted their summoners spell). Those help your team out a lot and should be much appreciated. You're willing to sacrifice your own farm and well-being for your teammates and that means a lot for map presence (and equally as important - morale). Ahri was getting killed by Diana I believe, and you turned on her with very little health and no summoners and turned the situation around for her - the savior! She should remember you and Honor you for Teamwork, because if it wasn't for you and players like you doing that, we would all be getting dove 24/7. By being a threat in all the lanes, you're a terrifying force to the enemy team - who knows where you'll pop up next (probably why they want to shut you down so bad - that's great! you're drawing a lot of resources from the enemy team for next to nothing). It looks like you're getting matched with a lot of Ranked players before you even hit level 30, so you're clearly doing the right things! Best of luck to you and let me know if you need any specific matchup tips! I look forward to seeing you climb - I definitely think some more practice and game knowledge you'll easily be able to climb right up the ladder. Hell you're doing great as-is, it looks like the main issue is the matchmaking currently as someone tends to get incredibly fed on one side, and that will even out with time. You're a team player at heart in a team game, this means more than any solo-crushing player ever will!
Malfectious1 votesTy for taking you time and giving me such a supportive overview. I kinda was expecting to hear something about control wards...For some reason I just forget they exist when I'm in the shop. But, all of that positive feed back is encouraging, I always try to do my best! The only 1v1 that scares me is Yasuo...And I plan to just learn the champ, that seems to be the best way to learn there weaknesses. Thanks again!!!
PlsCheckThisBush1 votesTy for taking you time and giving me such a supportive overview. I kinda was expecting to hear something about control wards...For some reason I just forget they exist when I'm in the shop. But, all of that positive feed back is encouraging, I always try to do my best! The only 1v1 that scares me is Yasuo...And I plan to just learn the champ, that seems to be the best way to learn there weaknesses. Thanks again!!!
You're very welcome, hope to see you on the Rift! Yasuo is always a threatening matchup, especially around minions - he turns very anime swordsman and dashes everywhere, making him super unpredictable when played well and his passive makes him hit incredibly hard with only a few items. Great to see someone willing to learn!
Surr20plz2 votesThe part of the map he was on was hidden...from your low IQ brain.
Lee was actually perfectly visible to people that have higher scores.
PlsCheckThisBush1 votesPersonally, I'd much rather have the ganking meta than the hardcore "afk until Sated Devourer" meta. As much as I enjoyed farming until no end on Xin/Yi/Udyr/AnyoneThatRightClicksYou, I didn't like the game being on a timer sort of sense. It also forced pretty much every lane to be on their own until you were capable of 1v5'ing the entire team, which isn't exactly a healthy mechanic to have.
Yes, it sucks that Lee fed your laner, however try to learn from it and watch the replays - check out his pathing and what you could have done to assist him with the gank or could have pushed/roamed to help other lanes rather than flame him.
Kai Guy1 votesDid you see the Sated Malphite build near the end of that meta?
PlsCheckThisBush1 votes[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sZTIjP1W,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-04-13T19:13:55.661+0000)
Did you see the Sated Malphite build near the end of that meta?
I don't believe I did - would his W proc like crazy for some insane AoE burst? I can only imagine the terror he would bring.
Kai Guy1 votesSquishes would be dead before they landed from his R's cc. Sated and rageblade with his W and E for burst. folks who lived that then got a slow from Q and chased down. It was super cheesy in that it needed to snowball to have impact but once you hit 6 it was all kinds of hilarious.
PlsCheckThisBush1 votes[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sZTIjP1W,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-13T19:55:20.835+0000)
Squishes would be dead before they landed from his R's cc. Sated and rageblade with his W and E for burst. folks who lived that then got a slow from Q and chased down. It was super cheesy in that it needed to snowball to have impact but once you hit 6 it was all kinds of hilarious.
That sounds absolutely hilarious. It reminds me of when ol' Critphite was around! Sated and Rageblade was by far my most and least favorite broken combination of items to run. The synergy was out of this world. I am very glad they changed it, though, as I always felt terrible abandoning my lanes all the time for them juicy Devourer stacks!
Kilanost1 votesThere should be balance. Right now jungle xp and gold is so low that junglers will force ganks that shouldn't be attempted because if they don't, they'll fall behind. Say your team has 2 hardcore winning lanes that are constantly pushed but difficult to dive and another lane that is losing so hard that its unsafe to gank it. You're stuck choosing to either force dives or gank into a possible 2v1 loss. You can try invading the enemy jungle but with long respawn timers, there's usually nothing there.
Frightning1 votesIf your jungle pathing is efficient, you should almost never have 'nothing to do'. If you've taken all of your camps, get the Scuttle crabs. If you've gotten those too, take dragon, RH (latter generally requires your top laner, but if they are pushed out, it's generally pretty safe, unless the enemy has warded it; use the plant to check it first before suggesting to take it). You could also take a peak into the enemy jungle and maybe steal some of that jungler's camps, especially if they show on the other side of the map (easy way to counterjungle).
Kilanost1 votesLet me rephrase. Instead of nothing to do I would argue that your options for what you can do are so piss poor that you will be left behind doing any of them. It was a hyperbole to emphasize a point.
Counter jungling is fine if its there. However the risk/reward right now is not on par with what it used to be. Long camp respawn timers mean 9/10 times you're walking into a cleared jungle when you go to counter jungle. You've then just wasted your time and put yourself in a position to be collapsed on. When repspawn timers were shorter and it didn't take a full minute to clear krugs/wraiths, you could counter jungle, drop a ward, and bounce and make that option very worthwhile which would balance out the times that you'd counter jungle and find nothing.
Taking the time to take scuttle is almost never efficient. It gives shit xp and takes forever to kill on many champions. It has utility but, again, doesn't address the primary issue. Also, this assumes scuttle is even up to take.
Take dragon? You need to have map control to take/contest dragon. This requires lane pressure and a relative lead/strength over the enemies that are in a position to contest the objective. If your top doesn't have TP up and theirs does, you essentially have a guaranteed mismatch that is not in your favor. Then there is the question of whether or not you're giving up turret first blood for a sub-par dragon. Generally speaking, thats not a good trade as the 550 gold edge to an enemy laner early on is stronger than any buff you can get from a dragon. If you don't consider these things, you'll get collapsed on and essentially just leash drag for the enemy team or you'll take a dragon but give away so much more in the process. A lot more goes into taking drag than just walking over to it and killing it. Oh and lets not forget, that the bastard only spawns every 5 minutes.
Meanwhile, solo laners get a fresh stream of XP and gold every 30 seconds.
EDIT: Don't take my word over the weakness of the jungle role. Take a look at this:
Frightning1 votesIndeed dragon is not always safe to take, however, the plants are really helpful for checking for enemy wards on dragon. If you use the plant and find no wards on it or your path to it, consider trying to just solo the dragon. Many times the enemy will just get caught blissfully unaware that you are soloing it (obviously, it's a risk, but it's worth at least considering). Also, if your lanes are pushing out, consider showing anyway and helping siege the tower (especially effective bot lane, where you have 3 people to juggle turret aggro with, one of whom may have shields/heals as well and hence the dive threat is it's strongest there), even if you don't get the turret, it puts you ahead in the race to first turret blood, and can often force the enemy jungle to appear (vision again is important to not subject yourself to a counter-gank from said jungle), which removes his map pressure because he was forced to match your proactive play.
I jungle often enough, and I pretty much always feel like I have stuff to do that's worthwhile (crab's main value is the vision of river area, if it paid well in gold and xp as well, it would be OP and highly contested).
Kilanost1 votesThe question isn't whether you have stuff to do. The question is whether that stuff is going to allow you to scale appropriately, if the risk/reward is worthwhile. We're talking about being able to affect the game in a way that a support with smite couldn't.
You're making this argument with me but it doesn't hold up. Maybe you're better than me maybe you're not. You say you jungle "often enough" but jungling is essentially all I do. What I do know is that multiple challenger players, one of them being a pro player, see the jungle as weak for the exact same reasons I'm mentioning (and have been mentioning for a long time). So even if you do understand the game better than I do, your game knowledge isn't better than theirs. And perhaps the reason you always feel like your time is well spent is because you don't see exactly how disadvantaged your decisions are making you. In fact, let me look you up....
LOL Ok you don't play ranked. In fact, a large chunk of your games are still being played against AI. This explains everything. I forgive you.
And yes I'm well aware of the value of skuttle crab, its still a giant waste of time when you could spend the 10-15 seconds it takes to kill it pathing toward a lane to apply pressure or toward a camp that just spawned on the other wise of the map. Jungling right now is the constant struggle of trying to keep your head above water.
Frightning1 votesI don't play ranked because I don't care to climb the ladder. I play AI because sometimes I like to kick back, relax, and dumpster some bots. If I was serious about ranked, I could probably get into plat, based on the skill I've seen demonstrated by other players of various rankings. Assuming that because I am unranked and play AI sometimes, that I must therefore not be skilled is foolish (and in fact wrong in this case).
Most players severely undervalue vision in this game. There's a reason pro players ward so much, it wins games. Crab might not pay you immediately in gold and xp, but the information its vision gives you can be potentially hugely valuable. I've had it where I've taken crab, gone and done a nearby camp, and as I finished, seen the enemy jungle coming towards one of my lanes via crab vision. I realize I can get down there fast enough to countergank their jungler (and my lane gets advanced warning they're about to be ganked and that I am coming for the countergank, so they bait it perfectly)...and sure enough that nets us a free kill (or 2 and maybe Tower and/or Dragon too).
Kilanost1 votesIf you are on a champion that can't take scuttle quickly, you shouldn't go out of your way to take it. If you're walking on top of it, sure kill it. But otherwise, you have better options. If you watch challenger solo queue junglers, a lot of them do the same thing. No one goes out of their way for scuttle. They take it if they're on top of it.
No one under values vision, people are just shit at remembering to ward.
If you can get into plat, go do it. Then we'll talk. Guaranteed you get B1 at best. You're like those kids that run around telling people "I deserve diamond, but the other people in bronze are holding me down." No you deserve diamond if you get diamond. Or in your case, you play at a play skill level when you've proven you can hack it in plat ranked games.
Frightning1 votesI guarantee I could get out of Bronze easily, in fact, I played ranked in season 3, and placed into Silver IV, (6-4 placement record), then proceeded to win most of my games and got double promoted to Silver II, at which point my overall win rate was 70%. That was almost 4 years ago now, and I am much better at the game now.
"If you watch challenger solo queue junglers, a lot of them do the same thing. No one goes out of their way for scuttle. They take it if they're on top of it." AKA, efficient pathing, ofc you don't go halfway across the map for just scuttle crab, no, you get it when you're near it already. It's the same thing with camp pathing: you don't go krugs, then all the way to gromp, then all the way back to red, etc. because that'd be terribly inefficient.
Kilanost1 votesYou're better at the game now than 3 years ago? I should hope so. But here is the reality check: So is everyone else. In fact the people that have been playing ranked (the more competitive choice) have had an added incentive to get better while you've been slumming it in norms for 3.5 years.
And again, you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with challenger and pro level players that have the same sentiment.
Kai Guy1 votesYou mate are going to want to use better communication with your teammates. After the first gank failed ask him to use pings better, if your map awareness is lacking its ok to let your jungle know. Just be like hey bro I get tunnel versioned sometimes so please ping when your ganking so I don't leave ya hanging. Also your should work on your map awareness, like your review mirrors when your driving you need to periodically check your minimap. Note where your friendly's are and how many mias enemy team has got.
Hallbuster1 votesI didn't believe he would try and make the same mistake twice when Talon was already a level ahead. I guess some people like our Lee Sin was born dumb.
Kai Guy2 votesSome times jungles will double back on a lane they failed a gank when they feel it can result in a kill, to offset the gold they gave your lane. This may not be the case with your lee sin. I am open to the fact that his ganks could have just been terrible, but why would that excuse you from needing to watch minimap or communicate productively with teammates?
Kilanost1 votesThere is a reason junglers do nothing but gank at the moment: jungle xp and farm has been nerfed to the point that junglers scale in xp and gold with supports.
Right now the only way for junglers to keep up is to gank non-stop, get gold and xp from the gank and/or get gold and xp by taxing the lane. Sometimes taxing xp is literally the only reason junglers are showing up in lane. When there are no lanes in a favorable ganking position, the situation you are describing is what occurs. You get bad ganks that feed enemy lanes.
#makejunglegreatagain
PlsCheckThisBush1 votesThere is a reason junglers do nothing but gank at the moment: jungle xp and farm has been nerfed to the point that junglers scale in xp and gold with supports.
Right now the only way for junglers to keep up is to gank non-stop, get gold and xp from the gank and/or get gold and xp by taxing the lane. Sometimes taxing xp is literally the only reason junglers are showing up in lane. When there are no lanes in a favorable ganking position, the situation you are describing is what occurs. You get bad ganks that feed enemy lanes.
#makejunglegreatagain
Can confirm, there's a video by the former Rank #1 player featuring Akaadian of Echo Fox discussing this very issue.
Kilanost1 votesI literally posted that video immediately prior to responding to this post lol. Also included a video of Trick2G essentially giving up league in frustration.
Ben SwoIo1 votesWTF. I would LOVE a jungler that ganks. I just had an Elise who was power farming. As Elise. Yeah thats right. Meanwhile she's being out pressured by a Cho'gath in every, single, lane. I hate when junglers power farm using a champ that isn't supposed to power farm. GANK, I will love you for it and so will the rest of the team.