Now That Kog's W Is Getting Reverted, Can Guinsoo's Be Buffed And More On-Hit Items Added?

ArnoldSchwarzens··40 votes·2,551 views

Kog in his current incarnation makes it really hard for other on-hit centric champions, especially other ADCs, to have a proper on-hit build. This is because the interaction between Kog's W and on-hit effects is so absurdly good that if you were to buff any of these items to be decent on most on-hit champions, the power level of Kog would go through the roof.

Now that Kog's W is going to be reverted ( http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/NZK9A5NP-upcoming-kogmaw-changes ), current weak on-hit items can be buffed and some new items could be added, to make full on-hit builds an actual thing.

First, let's talk about Guinsoo's Rageblade. Guinsoo's has been described as " The Infinity Edge of On-Hit Builds " by a lot of Rioters and now that fantasy may be able to becomee reality, with all the new room to buff and change it.

There are several things that can be done to it and a lot of problems it has atm.

First off, the AP still feels very weird. If it would be an item dedicated to hybrids with on-hits like Kayle or Jax it would make sense, but not as an item that is intended to be " The Infinity Edge of On-Hit Builds ", because Yi for example really does not care about the AP at all. The whole giving on-hit champions weird AP ratios thing could create unexpected balancing issues ( remember AP Trynd / Yi ? ) so the AP could instead just be removed altogether and replaced with attack speed and maybe a dedicated hybrid item could be made to fill the whole hybrid attack speed item niche.

Next up it's the weird fact that you actually lose out on flat attack speed when finishing the item. For the ultimate on-hit item, this is just obviously one of the big factors from keeping it from being exactly that. Even weirder is that it has flat AD and AP values instead of flat attack speed, both are stats that really aren't as important in an on-hit build, unless you're Kayle or Teemo. On top of that, you can't just lose a stat that you paid for, even if you are able to stack it up again.

So this is basically how an effective Guinsoo's could look like some time after patch 6.19, when the Kog'Maw changes go live. Here's the live version for reference: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Guinsoo's_Rageblade

Guinsoo's Rageblade: Build Path: Recurve Bow + Recurve Bow + Dagger + Dagger + 1000 gold = 3600 gold Stats: 60% attack speed Unique Passive: Basic attacks deal an additional 30 magic damage on-hit. Basic attacks grant 10% attack speed for 5 seconds, stacking up to 6 times for a total of 60% attack speed. At 6 stacks, gain Guinsoo's Rage. Unique Passive - Guinsoo's Rage: Every other basic attack will trigger on-hit effects an additional time.

( Extra Note: Recurve Bow would lose the uniqueness of its passive, which would make it able to stack. )

As you can see there wouldn't be a single bit of AP or AD left on it. Instead, there would be much more attack speed and more on-hit damage. It just makes sense for the central on-hit build item to be that way, especially since full attack speed / on hit items are gone ever since Runaan's got its rework to make it a crit item.

Also, 120% attack speed might sound really scary but keep in mind: the gold value of 1% attack speed is much lower than the value of 1 AD or 1 AP. On top of that, you'll still have to stack it up first and it would still cost a whopping 3.6k gold, which makes up for it.

Lastly, Recurve Bow would lose the uniqueness of its passive. Since no one would buy 2 recurve bows before finishing one of the item it builds into anyway atm this really would not be much of a problem - it would also allow the build path of above work without it losing out on that 15 extra on-hit.

Another, probably more controversial thing I thought of is splitting Blade of the Ruined King into two items. I will write down the changes here first and you can look into the explanations later. Again, here's the live version of it ( http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Blade_of_the_Ruined_King ) .

Blade of the Ruined King: Build Path: Recurve Bow + Dagger + Dagger + 1000 gold = 2600 gold Stats: 60% attack speed Unique Passive: Basic attacks deal 15 + 6% of the target's bonus health as true damage on-hit.

Glaive of the Fallen Order: Build Path: Recurve Bow + Bilgewater Cutlass + 500 gold = 3000 gold Stats: 40% attack speed, 25 attack damage Unique Passive: heals for 25% of all on-hit damage dealt. Unique Active: Steals 25% of the target's movement speed for 3 seconds ( 550 range and 90 second cooldown ) .

If we look at what a full on-hit item build would look like, at first you need to look into what other builds have in its stead - for magical defense, AP casters have Abyssal, AD Champions have Maw or Scimitar and on-hit champions have Wit's End; for the high-cost central scaling synergy item, AP casters have Rabadon's, crit champions have IE and ER, Penetration Champions have Black Cleaver, Youmuu's and Duskblade and on-hit champions would have Guinsoo's.

But now let's look at other areas: For sustain, there's Ravenous Hydra for melee AD champions and Bloodthirster for ranged ones, for tanks there's Warmog's, for some AD casters there's Death's Dance, but for AP mages and on-hit champions? There is nothing for them.

AP champions had spellvamp, but after years of balancing Riot came to the conclusion to flat out remove it, at least on items. But this is a topic for another thread.

Instead, take a look at the sustain item an on-hit build would need and how the Glaive of the Fallen Order would do that job. The currently best option, BotRK, fails at doing that properly. As an on-hit champion you don't make much use of the lifesteal because your autohits on their own don't deal enough damage to properly heal you, because of course most of your damage comes from on-hits instead.

GotFO would provide you with a on-hit lifesteal that fixes the issue of that. It would heal you for the damage on-hits of items like Guinsoo's and Wit's End would deal, the damage of abilities like Vayne's Silver Bolts and Q or Kog's W and even things like Sheen deal.

Next up it's the rework idea for the other half of the current identity of BotRK, the tank shredder aspect. Again, AP Casters have Void Staff, AD Casters have Mortal Reminder and Dominik's but on-hit champions have nothing really dedicated to specifically deal with tanks. For that it would get its revamped on-hit. It deals percentage true damage which obviously brings back really scary memories but it's important to note that it's works off bonus HP and not total HP.

Most importantly of all, why remove BotRK in the first place? Well, it has a lot of purposes as an item mixed into it that would be better served as items of their own, like above. It always had a weird history of RIot not really knowing what to do with the thing. First it was mainly used for its amazing active, then for the super strong on-hit and attack speed, other times for the lifesteal combined with attack speed etc. The weird patch history of making one of these aspects stronger and making another one of them weaker shows just how much of an identity crisis this item has. Because of that, especially with all the new options that would be available after that, I think that it's better served being split into two items.

There could be much more on-hit items added or changed. For example, a more balanced version of the Dervish Blade ( http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Dervish_Blade ) could be introduced into Summoner's Rift, or a hybrid on-hit item like i've mentioned before. Would love to see some of your ideas and your opinions on mine, criticism is highly appreciated as long as it's civil and you can tell me exactly why you don't like one of my ideas.

EDIT 1: Thank you guys for all the responses and criticism. Of course I'm not happy to see that some people just really don't like the idea but I guess I'll have to live with that. On the flipside I'm relieved that you stated your opinion in a civil way and that you didn't turn this whole post in a circlejerk.

So let's talk about what you guys posted.

First off it's the new anti-tank BotRK. That is understandably super scary for a lot of people out there, since full tanks are pretty weak right now compared to bruisers in the toplane and in the jungle or utility/AP supps in the botlane. This change would just be another hit in the face for them, as a lot of people think.

After thinking a lot about it it probably has some truth to it. Tanks are partly struggling because of the abundance of %penetration which makes it really easy to kill them, since flat pen applies after %pen which is super strong because of the way diminishing returns work. Tanks atm just fail at being tanky unless they have a lot of damage too, where the annoying bruiser builds like Ekko and Yasuo come in.

I think that is not only a problem of items but rather because of damage creep right now, and how tanks may need a class rework like juggernauts and marksmen did.

Point is, only when tanks are strong and the problems of above have been dealt with, only then should new BotRK really be introduced. Maybe give that item the name of GotFO instead, the other item really seems more like the current BotRK anyway.

Another thing is %HP true damage, because you practically can't build defensively against it. The bonus HP thing eliminates the threat for everyone who doesn't need to build HP but for tanks it can be balanced around. When you look at the history of %HP true damage it was OP for a long time, until Riot played with its numbers over a few patches so that now it's mostly balanced. Everyone remembers the terror that was Vayne's Silver Bolts or Fiora's Vitals but you also have to agree that after some shifting of the numbers they both are in an arguably decent spot now, except for maybe Vayne's low winrate atm, which mostly stems from other problems like laning and things that are not her Silver Bolts.

67 Comments

TTK Dreadnought23 votes

Unique Passive: Basic attacks deal 15 + 6% of the target's bonus health as true damage on-hit.

Its the end of the tanks as we know it.

ArnoldSchwarzens4 votes

Number's could be balanced around, Mortal Reminder and Dominik's also had to go through that phase after they were introduced. If it is to strong, make it 4% of their bonus HP or if its to weak make it 8%. It would be balanced at some point.

colesy24 votes

stop adding percentage health true damage in to this game

Frius4 votes

cause always % true dmg = cancer ,look vayne and fiora cancerous mid late damage

Veltox1 votes

Sometimes i want to strangle Fiora designer for creating a ability that can block literally everything. No matter the cooldown it's still busted.

Ruin Lance11 votes

Unique Passive: Basic attacks deal 15 + 6% of the target's bonus health as true damage on-hit.

u trying to be funny?

ArnoldSchwarzens3 votes

Can you tell me exactly what you don't like about the idea?

Ruin Lance5 votes

because it punishes tanks for building tanky (%bonus hp true damage). on the other hand it's almost completely useless against champions that don't build health.

needless to say this is totally toxic. no matter what it will be too weak or too strong and there will be no way to balance it similar to how Aatrox is too weak but buffing him will make him too strong.

ArnoldSchwarzens1 votes

Well with Dominik's it's pretty much the same thing. It only shreds bonus armor and not total armor and you don't get the bonus damage against targets that have lower or the same HP as you. It still seems to be working just fine right now.

New BotRK would have exactly the same purpose, just for on-hit stackers instead of for champions that stack AD, pen and/or crit.

Ruin Lance5 votes

no it's not the same thing. dominik's doesn't actually punish people for being tanky.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

As much as his idea is a god awful one, both it and Dominiks ARE actually the same since Dominik's penetrates bonus armor, it is only effective against people that sank gold into armor which means it punishes them for being tanky since they're wasted gold, the same would be true of his item since it punishes you for building health.

LankPants5 votes

LDR does not punish you for being tanky, it just removes your tankieness. The item this guy actively punishes you for being tankier. The more bonus HP you have the higher % of your HP you would take. You die in fewer hits when you buy more HP. LDR does not do that.

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

Glaive of the Fallen Order: Build Path: Recurve Bow + Bilgewater Cutlass + 500 gold = 3000 gold Stats: 40% attack speed, 25 attack damage Unique Passive: heals for 25% of all on-hit damage dealt. Unique Active: Steals 25% of the target's movement speed for 3 seconds ( 550 range and 90 second cooldown ) .

I see someone wasn't around when Feral Flare existed.

falldown0101 votes

indeed, the old glory days xD it was so good on nocturne, ww etc

but insanely broken, vayne jungle was rare back then, but if you did get one you would 100% know what she would build

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

Even AATROX was viable with that item. Its why I could never take complaints about devourer too seriously since I remembered release Feral Flare.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

aatrox is an aa champion...

waht did you expect lol

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Even when AA centric items are strong they usually just make Aatrox viable but still the worst of the bunch.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Yeah. It's sad because he's shit atm and he's a crappy yi or a crappy jax honestly. I hope riot would bother solving his problems but fuck it xin zhao buffs : ^)

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Near the end, I occasionally played Rammus with Feral Flare. Clear times were great and the unmitigated on-hit healing combined with his resistances made him very difficult to finish off.

Veltox2 votes

I agree on item 3124 not being efficient now but nothing more than a 20% AS buff unless we want something similar with devourer-guinsoo era.

Jefftiffy1 votes

{quoted}

I agree on item 3124 not being efficient now but nothing more than a 20% AS buff unless we want something similar with devourer-guinsoo era.

That was probably one of my least favorite eras. Fuck TahmKench XinZhao Jax MasterYi Udyr Kayle and more that literally were broken the second they finished 2 items and never fell off.

HaloDragonX4 votes

Kayle doesn't fall off, she's a hypercarry.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

all of them are hypercarries lol

HaloDragonX1 votes

Yi, Kayle, Jax and maybe Xin are hypercarries. No Tahm or Udyr.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

%max health damage based on your own health is not hypercarry?

I might be wrong but isn't tham a hypercarry due to his %max health?

HaloDragonX1 votes

Tahm Kench is tank, a support tank, not a hypercarry. Maybe he's a hypertank? But no Tahm Kench builds Rageblade or would want to.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Well you don't become a hypercarry for building one item....

He's sorta a hypertank, so yeah.

HaloDragonX1 votes

Rageblade with 20% more AS means nothing much when you remove all the AP and AD.

Jhin UItd JFK2 votes

I don't want to have another on-hit meta nightmare like the beginning of this season.

So I'm fine with on-hit champions not being meta right now

HaloDragonX1 votes

We never had an on hit meta. We had devourer and jax mid tank meta.

GayFluffyUnicorn6 votes

Devourer rageblade bortk was never a thing? Never ever? we never had it? Did u join the game last week?

HaloDragonX1 votes

Devourer Rageblade was a thing, that entire thing was during the tank meta, and only 2 champions used it. Yi and jax, neither were even considered meta or used in pro play.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Except they shit all over the normal Queues? And aatrox also used it, shyvana too, udyr too, literally every single aa jungler did, don't spread bullshit m9

HaloDragonX1 votes

Shyvana was going Devourer Titanic Full Tank, not Rageblade.

Aatrox is irrelevant and actually doesn't even get to count as an example. Using Rageblade on him just made him a subpar champion.

Udyr was building Runic Echos full tank with Zzrot.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

I guess you never played sated rageblade aatrox lol

Actually all of them went sated, rageblade, titanic, full tank. Shyvana didn't always build rageblade but it was okay. Udyr could go sated rageblade too so... that's that.

HaloDragonX1 votes

I do play Aatrox. Infact, he still sucked with Devourer Rageblade. Mages still 1 shot you because you're Aatrox, ADCs still permakite you, your Q still gets interrupted.

Shyvana and Udyr do not build Rageblade.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

They could, and it was legit, why exactly wouldn't you want to?

Also aatrox always sucked, he was just ok and not pure shit during rageblade devourer era

GULAG 4 U1 votes

but muh 1v5 freelopentaz as yi... plez

Saianna2 votes

Guinsoo rageblade is a "trap item". It simply cannot be strong otherwise it totally destroys balance of some champions.

Imo. It should be re-reworked to something less obviously creepy. No more retarded AOEs No more retarded %hp damage

Simple. AS-AD-AP steroid. Nothing more needed. Unless you want to re-re-rework Kogmaw in few weeks (which we all know, you won't. And this re-rework is nothing more than gutting kogmaw to shithole, so you won't have to deal with him for 10 more years)

Rebonack1 votes

The numbers suggested here would be hilariously over-tuned, but the general idea is more or less accurate.

Rageblade would make more sense as a giant IAS stick. item 1043 + item 2015 + item 3101, OnHit damage ramps with stacks, grants Phantom Hit at however many stacks, Energized Strike now applies OnHit effects.

BotRK should probably be split into two items (one for OnHit/lifesteal and one for Crit/Lifesteal).

Wit's should be turned into a component item (item 1042 + item 1043) that combines with a defensive item (item 3140 or item 1057 or item 3082 or item 1011) to create a range of bruiser gear to pick from.

ArnoldSchwarzens2 votes

Well usually I compare with other items to get decent numbers but with attack speed and on-hit it was really difficult. How would you change them?

falldown0102 votes

i would get rid of the whole % thing if the devs have made one mistake, it's prob this

% hurts tanks, and entirely gets rid of the idea of it the general concept of your item was fine

but the stats..., oh god

one question: ever played back then when feral flare was still there ? not the nerfed version, but the first one

edit: if not, please look it up , it should show you, why your suggestion is insanely broken

Masterer1 votes

personally I like much of this post and much of the underlying ideas, but you must remember guinsoos wasn't originally the source of the "Phantom hit" passive you are focusing on. guinsoos inherited this passive from devourer when it was removed. i would add a new item for the "Phantom hit" passive i will call "typhoon claws". typhoon claws should be practically identical too your reworked guinsoos besides the auto attack stacking part that can stay with guinsoos. The problem here is now we have to fix Guinsoos to have a new passive. something like 2%bonus AD + 2%AP on hit damage per stack, with guinsoos rage giving 12% on hit lifesteal sounds good. this will open guinsoos back up to a range of hybrid auto attacker like teemo and jax. thoughts?

Sylvant1 votes

they will have to delete YI aswell

GULAG 4 U1 votes

when a plat player complains about yi

What site m9? What's the price?

Sylvant1 votes

You read my comment wrong. Im saying if they buff guinsoo and add more on-hit items, Yi should be deleted. Ofc exaggerating there.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Except yi can't abuse on hit items that well (excluing sated period) as your dps would be shit compared to crit and you would be squishy compared to bruiser yi.

Sylvant1 votes

strange, currently the top rated builds include 2 on hit items and zero crit, i think you are talking BS.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Pretty sure OPGG told me it was the silencee build that was rated no1.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

{quoted}

Except yi can't abuse on hit items that well (excluing sated period) as your dps would be shit compared to crit and you would be squishy compared to bruiser yi.

Yi's Q and double strike proc on-hit. Add 2 attacks per second or more when he ults, yeah, on-hit Yi is trash... Not only on-hit is better vs people who stack armor, but the builds are more flexible than crit Yi. Also Crit Yi is hard countered by Banshee's Veil.

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