@Riot, If Cass can't be a poison mage, can you make one?

LegacyDAP·Mar 20, 2016·84 votes·3,566 views

Like an actual DoT poison based mage champion built around doing poison DoT to enemies and slowly killing her victims.

**EDIT: **To all of those saying Singed or Teemo

Singed is a Tank and is not very reliable with poisoning enemies. Dependent on people running into him, and he's not that good right now, especially higher up.

Teemo is a Marksman and he poisons with auto attacks. His shrooms are kind of poison like, but they nerfed them pretty good, and again his poison isn't reliable.

We want a mage that uses spells that are reliable to hit and that do damage over time. Not a trap hamster. Not a poison trail chemist. An actual poison mage.

81 Comments

lolipopevelynnMar 20, 201614 votes

{quoted}

Like an actual DoT poison based mage champion built around doing poison DoT to enemies and slowly killing her victims.

Teemo Teemo Teemo Teemo on duty

Dar RaksadaMar 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

on duty

Not quite the same, he's more of an ap marksman/ranger, he doesn't feel like a mage at all.

SaiannaMar 20, 20162 votes

And Riot even nerfed his poison part 3 times already..

ShinirupMar 20, 20162 votes

Not quite the same but still poison. I mean already have 3 poison champions. Cass, Singed, and Teemo. Though it does indeed suck that none are what one would actually think of regarding a poison mage for some reason...it seems a bit excessive to have 4. Would have been so much better if they just made Cass an actual poison mage, not an obnoxious to play, tirelessly stacking, spamming mix of randomness.

Dar RaksadaMar 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Not quite the same but still poison. I mean already have 3 poison champions. Cass, Singed, and Teemo. Though it does indeed suck that none are what one would actually think of regarding a poison mage for some reason...it seems a bit excessive to have 4. Would have been so much better if they just made Cass an actual poison mage, not an obnoxious to play, tirelessly stacking, spamming mix of randomness.

Twitch also works with poison but isn't a mage. None of those champions give the poison mage feel, though singed comes closest. Cass isn't a poison champ according to riot, and she doesn't feel like one at all. Teemo is basically a blowgunner.

Champion SkinMar 20, 20166 votes

Well there kind of already is a DoT based mage who slowly kills of his opponents.. maybe he will get a poison skin someday... I am of course talking about Swain where 3 out of 4 abilities are DoTs

3TWarriorMar 21, 20161 votes

technically only one of them is a damage over time though. his Q has about 600 range and a total range of 6 to 12 hundred depending upon if his opponent is in range of the ability still to deal damage

his E is his only real DOT as it follows the enemy champion regardless of range

Swain's ultimate is actually an area of effect that procs every second a champion or target is in range (it doesn't even prioritize champions unfortunately)

his W is actually just a delayed damage ability tied with crowd control...but riot ruined that last part

Serika ZeroMar 20, 20165 votes

Teemo Malzahar Swain there's a bunch of "dot" users out there making another "poison dot" hero will not work to well as that hero play style will conflict with the ones listed above.

macromiteMar 20, 20163 votes

dot user =/= poison mage. only teemo of those poisons people, and none of them are poison focused team fighters, so that could be a thing.

Serika ZeroMar 20, 20163 votes

dot = damage over time poison = damage over time do you understand now where is the overlap in play style ?

it will be most likely to similar to malzahar/teemo it doesn't matter that malzahar gives space aids, the "mechanic" is the same

macromiteMar 20, 20162 votes

you see, the problem here, is that the mechanic is NOT the same.

poison is unique. it has special interactions, and is shared among multiple champions

also, don't just ignore my other statement.

SpecterVonBarenMar 20, 20161 votes

Despite having three damage over time abilities, Malzahar isn't a dot mage. He's not about using damage over time to whittle his opponent down, his playstyle is about bursting them down. He's more like an AP Yi who, despite dealing his damage as DPS with his autos, is more about bursting someone down.

Swain, while not being as much about the burst rotation as Malzahar, still functions more like a traditional mage in that his trading patterns are similar to a mage that doesn't have dots. Only his ult is really used as a dot for sustaining in a teamfight.

Teemo is the only one there that is really about damage over time and slowly weakening someone by poking them with autos and his E poison. Singed has a poison playstyle too in that his pattern is about making people chase him while they slowly choke on his fumes and die.

Serika ZeroMar 20, 20161 votes

My main is a burst mage? Why, because a rioter said at some point that he is a burst mage? It takes 2-3 seconds for a target to die from 100 to 0 to Malzahar. That's not BURST. That's a full spell rotation while you keep the enemy in your W with your passive auto attacking them. Malzahar is anything BUT BURST.

Malzahar is a DoT Zone Control Mage (right now since I got no clue how rework will be). Which is highly focused on pealing and zone control. Again, he does his zone control with his DoTs and silence. While the pealing can be done with silence, dots and ult.

SpecterVonBarenMar 21, 20161 votes

Uh, no, Malzahar is a burst mage through and through, I base this off of his pattern. Even if hi full rotation isn't assassin level speed in terms of killing his target, it's still a single spell rotation kill, he is exactly a burst mage.

TeslabladeMar 20, 20165 votes

That seems inherently anti-fun.

LegacyDAPMar 21, 20161 votes

90% of the champion pool is anti-fun.

BlitzedlegendMar 21, 20161 votes

Anyone who beats us bronze players is anti fun

Nik NikersonMar 21, 20161 votes

What makes the other 10% fun?

LegacyDAPMar 22, 20161 votes

It was an over exaggeration. Probably not the best idea on my part, but I think a large majority of the champion pool is stupid to play against and "anti-fun" that doesn't mean the champion is broken though. Tryndamere is a fine example.

Nik NikersonMar 22, 20161 votes

I know it was an exaggeration. Although I was serious about understanding what you thought makes for a fun character (I've got a weird obsession with game design, and actually like to know the answer to these things).

LegacyDAPMar 23, 20161 votes

I think what makes a character fun is fitting their mold. Like I personally love Yorick, but hate his abilities. I want him to spawn armies of ghouls, not just some petty ghouls that do nothing, and I want him to be able to control armies.

I really like characters to fit a niche, or a mold that makes them unique. Like Braum and how he protects everyone, which is why I want Cass to poison stuff not spam the shit out of her twin fangs, and Yorick to spawn armies of ghouls not be a boring useless press E and push lane. I don't know how much this helps, but this is my perspective on making a character.

Troll for TrumpMar 20, 20164 votes

Maybe Teemo ? Or Singed ?. They aren't true mages, but I think making a new poison mage would probably outcclass those two, and make them even worse than they already are. Especially with the type of kits that have been coming out recently.

It Hertz When IPMar 20, 20161 votes

Nope. Teemo is an AP marksman, a good amount of his E's power budget is in the on-hit damage. Singed HAS poison, but it feels more like an AoE zoning tool on a champion intended to be more of a tank. His poison application method certainly doesn't scream "primary function".

This would be more like Cass, where you use ranged abilities to inflict and maintain/alter a DoT on a target from a distance.

Troll for TrumpMar 21, 20161 votes

What would be the point to play teemo if you have an AP poison mage

It Hertz When IPMar 21, 20161 votes

Without having this theoretical AP poison mage's kit to examine, off the top of my head I would assume that the differences would mostly evolve late-game and have something to do with the poison mage's manipulation of his/her own poison to have different effects.

I can assume that they won't have Teemo's shrooms or Blind.

Troll for TrumpMar 21, 20161 votes

Look at all the kits of the new champs, they are overloaded af compared to older champs.

Yeah, it won't have shrooms or blind, but will likely outclass teemo in every other aspect.

EvewynnMar 20, 20163 votes

I don't really see a separate "poison Mage" niche. That's Cass's identity.

Perhaps some sort of acid-based champ? Dissolving and debuffing the enemy slowly, which gets slowly worse as they stay in lane, with an ult that rapidly speeds the effects for teamfight relevance. Something like that.

FistOfSharkieshaMar 20, 201614 votes

Urgot is very, very close to fitting that mould already.

Dar RaksadaMar 20, 20169 votes

{quoted}

I don't really see a separate "poison Mage" niche. That's Cass's identity.

Perhaps some sort of acid-based champ? Dissolving and debuffing the enemy slowly, which gets slowly worse as they stay in lane, with an ult that rapidly speeds the effects for teamfight relevance. Something like that.

Riot disagrees on that front, according to them she's not a poison mage, so the rework will reflect that.

RetillinMar 20, 20162 votes

Yeah, it seems so arbitrary from Riot. "No no, she's not a poison mage, she's a spam bot!"

NaramielMar 20, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, it seems so arbitrary from Riot. "No no, she's not a poison mage, she's a spam bot!"

I never understood the notion of "New Cass will be about waiting until you land a poison and then hitting E so fast your key shatters. Then wait until you land another poison and do the same thing."

CubedJusticeMar 21, 20161 votes

I mean, say what you will, that is somewhat of a unique pattern, at the least. However, healthy or fun, no, and not fitting for Cass.

Bobloser3555Mar 20, 20162 votes

Teemo, Twitch, Singed all have poison so its not just Cassiopeias identity.

PePsiLemoNNMar 20, 20163 votes

Teemo

hsumis1oveMar 20, 20162 votes

??????????????????????????

LegacyDAPMar 20, 201622 votes

The Cass changes are still based around poisoning enemies doing little to no damage and spamming E. I'm pretty sure most of the community (including me) want an actual poison mage who does damage with the poison, not activating the rest of her kit by poisoning target champion.

hsumis1oveMar 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The Cass changes are still based around poisoning enemies doing little to no damage and spamming E. I'm pretty sure most of the community (including me) want an actual poison mage who does damage with the poison, not activating the rest of her kit by poisoning target champion.

then the person would be able run to like their bot lane soraka and heal up before the poison would kill him.

Anu3isIIMar 20, 20167 votes

True, but the big difference between damage over time and burst damage is that it will most probably offer you much better rewards/less risks.

Most of the spells that deal damage over time have higher amounts of damage or are easier to apply in general ( think about Malzahar, Swain a bit).

Some of them actually offer utility ( Brand's passive for combo's, Swain's E enchants his damage, the current Cass uses her poisons to spam her E).

The idea is, despite the lack of burst damage, and the unreliability of getting kills, damage-over-time-abilities get compensated in other areas and have some strengths over the burst-damage-abilities.

Nik NikersonMar 21, 20161 votes

I think part of the big problem a pure DoT character faces is that they are almost impossible to balance. Either they don't deal enough damage or deal damage quickly enough to be relevant, or they deal so much damage that killing your opponent becomes inevitable and they become OP.

Anu3isIIMar 21, 20161 votes

If a champion doesn't deal too much damage, he/she may get utility over the damage (like Anivia's ultimate?).

About the too high amount of damage problem, it can be easily solved by making that character have more weaknesses.

Take Malzahar for example. All his kit is pure DoT, only his Q being a burst ability.

His base damages and ratios are insane, his E poke can be devastating and a perfect combo with his ult can kill almost anyone.

Is he powerful? Yes. He is deadly? Totally! Is he OP? Not really. He has lots of ways to play around him, his range and his low-mobility. He can 1v1 almost anyone, but when there are two people, he is forced to play a lot safer.

So, if the DoT user has lots of damage, he/she will most probably be balanced in some other areas, to compensate the enormous amount of damage. I personally would prefer to see more DoT users that offer more utility than damage, so that they show a more interesting feature than "I will deal more damage than you! Just wait 5 seconds!!!".

Nik NikersonMar 21, 20161 votes

I'm not sure Malzahar is exactly an exemplar of a well balanced DoT character. That being said, Malz has a lot of issues that aren't related to his DoT potential, so it's tough to discuss his damage over time in a vacuum.

And I agree about seeing more utility than straight damage. And those characters I think are easier to work with. But at that point, are they a pure DoT character or are they a utility mage that happens to have some DoT abilities? I don't think it's impossible to balance out a character that can deal damage over time, I think it's incredibly difficult to balance them when their sole focus is on dealing damage.

hsumis1oveMar 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The Cass changes are still based around poisoning enemies doing little to no damage and spamming E. I'm pretty sure most of the community (including me) want an actual poison mage who does damage with the poison, not activating the rest of her kit by poisoning target champion.

so just rework her a little.

bill84Mar 20, 20162 votes

Do this, make them very OP, I will continue to play Galio .

LegacyDAPMar 21, 20161 votes

Lol you're actually a Galio main. Gratz man.

Maximum Ao ShinMar 20, 20162 votes

singed

420TemplarMar 20, 20162 votes

Singed

Emperor TimeMar 20, 20162 votes

So singed?

Nik NikersonMar 20, 20161 votes

DoT mages don't necessarily lead to super fun game play. I think that's part of Riot's reluctance to make one. Hopefully Cass's rework will bring her a little bit closer to that though.

Big LincolnMar 20, 20163 votes

no champion leads to super fun gameplay for the enemy though

Nik NikersonMar 21, 20161 votes

Losing usually isn't enjoyable, but there's losing, and then there's losing in a way that you feel you had no say in it, or there was no way to avoid the loss.