How many traps Caitlyn is allowed to put down should scale 1/2/3/4/5. Not 3 at rank 1.

LegacyDAP·Jul 1, 2017·176 votes·5,365 views

It's pretty ridiculous that at level 2 she can have me sitting under turret without being able to farm because she puts 3 traps right in the range I need to get in to last hit.

EDIT: If you're downvoting I'd at least like an explanation on why you don't agree with me. I'm open to other ideas, but Caitlyn's laning is disgusting currently. Right next to Draven's.

EDIT: I guess I should've made the suggestion in an edit form but the charge time should be 30/25/20/15/10. The traps don't charge at the beginning of the game without putting a level into it, but Cait will start with 1 trap when leveling it. The traps scale 2/2/3/4/5 instead of 1/2/3/4/5. This will make her weaker until level 10 where she gets 3 traps and at 13 she'll still be the same place trap Caitlyn as always. Zoning your laners off of turret and CS with 3 traps at level 2 is ridiculous. It should be 1 trap at level 2 that can recharge to 2 instead of starting at 3.

148 Comments

Vah NaborisJul 1, 201714 votes

at rank 1 her trap recharge time is pretty high and they don't last that long

LegacyDAPJul 1, 20173 votes

She'll still place all 3 that she starts with under your tower to prevent you from farming.

Maybe if she didn't start with 3 traps as soon as she leveled it I'd be fine, but she'll rush level 2 and immediately place 3 traps in a line to prevent you from walking up.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 1, 201710 votes

no matter what legit argument you make people are gonna be pissy about cuz its a caitlyn hate meta

she dont have the highest win rate, she is being nerfed, she is dont have the dps of other adcs or wave clear nor mobility

but cuz no one can seem to walk around a damn trap or learn how to counter pick her

let alone all the other adcs who out scale her and can 1 vs 1 her ...

and as soon as these nerfs hit and champs like vayne,jihn rise again and they will people will cry about those as well

it dont matter , they could nerf all adcs where urgot is the best one and people would say riot dont know how to balance a game

LegacyDAPJul 1, 201716 votes

She has the 52.5% win rate, a 35% pick rate, and the highest ban rate ADC at 65%. (source: https://na.op.gg/champion/statistics )

I had no idea she was being nerfed, but I haven't seen any changes yet.

She actually does have the waveclear and better DPS than most ADC's, her lack of mobility is made up with range which is also fine.

The problem isn't "I can't learn to walk around the trap" the problem is you can't walk around the trap early game as an ADC. That's what this whole post is about is nerfing her early game traps. I wouldn't even mind if they made the cooldown on them faster early and scaled to 10 seconds at rank 5 like it is now, but the 3 traps in a row at the beginning is ridiculous.

Counterpicking a champion doesn't give them counter play. In that argument Kassadin is fine because I can just play AD mid.

Don't you think ALL is a bit of an overstatement? The only champions that outscale her are Draven and Twitch. (who are also broken). Caitlyn arguably scales better than Draven because Draven snowballs harder, but Caitlyn has a higher increase in damage at full build with range.

Caitlyn isn't meant to 1v1 people, Caitlyn is meant to zone them off from 1v1ing her. If a Caitlyn let's a Lucian/Draven/Twitch get into range without anyone near her she deserves to die.

If Caitlyn being so strong keeps other champs out of meta then you know she's a problem. If Vayne and Jhin both rise just because of Caitlyn becoming out of meta it literally just proves my point. That also doesn't even mean the nerfs on PBE or w/e will go through.

This isn't about Riot not knowing how to balance the game. I think most of the changes they do they have reasoning for. However, I as a person have an opinion on the state of balance and I believe Caitlyn's zoning is too strong early game because of the amount of traps she gets.

tl;dr I respond to every point you make in order.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 1, 20175 votes

jinx out scales her and does more dps late sivir has better wave clear and utility and aoe damage in team fights, and oh has her spell shield for caits traps did we forget kog exist? vayne is a monster 1 vs 1 dueling tank killing hyper carry lucian is an early game bully lane dominate of a champ kalista provides hyper game carry, mobility and utility draven flat out the most early game damage and most snowball champ as an adc due to this lvl 1 1st blood potential plus his passive mf is still strong and has great aoe damage , lane bully ashe can provide aoe wave clear, dps, slow and hard cc and utility for a team , her ult alone can make cait an easy target to lock down and focus. twitch has the #1 win rate of adcs and has been top 3 for months... he has stealth, a slow , super dps , true damage, and his ult increases his range and allow his autos to pass through enemies to hit the back lane so not only can he blow up tanks, he has great dps and can 1 vs 1 almost any one and with ambush on his Q if he loses that 1 vs 1 he is bad... and he is a hyper carry
jihn has traps that are invisible, aoe damage on a bouncing mechanic where you dont even have to be the target to get hit by it... and can snipe you not once but up to 4 times from half a map away ( so it seems) which each shot slowing and increasing damage
caits strongest point in lane is before 1st back... from that point on most adcs if not all simply scale harder with AS per lvl most adcs have some kind of aoe/or steroid in their kit to increase their power at the press of a button. cait has to proc headshot passive for a steroid via autos stacking a counter , faster if in bush or use her trap /E if she uses E on you to proc head shot for damage then she is a sitting duck with no escape and slow movement speed and slow dps cait's whole play style is to out range/poke and to siege objectives , her traps provide this by being able to zone you as she sieges a turret/base with out her getting a 3 crit item build she is crap and after laning phase is completely auto attack reliant in which if she uses abilities is a waste cuz her damage is best with autos due to crit and head shot counter passive , if cait dont play supper argo in lane pushing using her it advantage then she falls behind hard til after 25+ mins in game and even then "hyper carries" out scale her at 6 items , and as she super pushes that just leaves room to gank her cuz she is so far forward in lane and over extended. she is one of the worst adcs when behind in game... also with the tank item changes nerfing HP on items indirectly nerfing bork and bork champs crit based champs like cait got slightly buffed cuz of it. if tank gets less HP and more ARMOR the bork isnt as strong vs that. hence kinda why some adcs fell back and those who arent bork reliant (outside of twitch for reasons explained ) are stronger in general

she has always had a high pick rate regardless of season due to her ability to take objectives

now about the nerfs that are purposed they are reducing her AS per lvl meaning she would be forced to build more attack speed items but the nerf would hurt her headshot passive counter by not being able to get as many autos per sec as before. also they already made it where she cant proc headshots on item 3085 bolts ruining any aoe damage she use to do with the combo

i get it she is a pain in the ass... most good champs are... but there are ways to beat her and win... not only lane and game if she wastes her traps to force you under turret she has none to zone and protect her from flanks which is her weakness if cait is picked long range burst mages are great vs her long range cc to lock her down. hard engages , champs with gap closers get in her face , she cant 1vs 1 that well cuz of lack of pure dps

DaNinadJul 1, 20173 votes

Her headshot damage can go to 1.7k(the highest i've gotten) late game. Atleast she has a weak early... oh wait she doesn't.

Also she can 1v1 pretty much anything because of her traps, e, headshot damage and range.

Supreme Senpai69Jul 2, 20173 votes

Honestly I don't care about her traps or headshot damage. It's just the range that's so unfair because there's no counterplay. 650 range means she will always get the first and the last AA in so you can't trade with her. It's all-ins or nothing.

Teriyaki BukkakeJul 3, 20171 votes

What you have said is so out of context and barely touches on the actual issue of caitlyns unbalanced nature

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 3, 20171 votes

lol whatever

its just typical hate bandwagons that the community does

i get it i get downvoted cuz people just wanna hate and instead of seeing everything as a whole

and what i said isnt out of context it is in context regarding her and her kit and play style and what her design as a champ is suppose to do...

they are making changes to her ... they already changed how she cant use hurricane to proc headshot passive

why not give a week into the patch after her AS nerf and lets see what happens

NevrankroatonJul 1, 201711 votes

I fail to see the logic in your reasoning.

Caitlyn is the ADC with the most range but it doesn't mean her kit should then come with underwhelming scaling.

Her trap is a staple for her lane control (as she is made for that, don't forget that nobody like bully in lane and caitlyn is a bully along with draven and lucian in some mu), it is what allow her to deal dmg (as her Q is normally a tool used to push and easy to avoid/mitigate the dmg if the ennemy isn't CC and without any other champ/minion/monster in front of them) and valorise her role of zoning as an ADC.

Having one trap mean loosing lane control or damage input for her, which then invalidate her early game power, which then only make her a "650 range ADC" and while having a big range is something huge, it clearly will make her feel terrible to play since you can't use your trap to zone the opponent and if you do, you can't have good pressure/dmg input by putting a trap under a CC opponent.

If you say "Well she will have to max W or make a choice", it would be very hypocritical and short sighted. Not maxing Q mean loosing waveclear, which mean with her slow AS growth, cait will be easily pushed out. She then can't properly have an early advantage which hurt her as her scaling is about her being able to put pressure on lane.

It also mean she is way weaker in skirmish as she will be able to get, at best, one trap headshot and trap headshot is the core of her damage input. It mean caitlyn can't even get proper tool for dueling.

She will be reduced to hope her support is a bully, so it can put the pressure for her, or that the ennemy bot lane is very passive (either by having passive/weak early champ) so she can easily live her life or try to be a 'bully'.

This nerf would have to be compensated by a buff on the CD storing CD, which would make her blatantly stupid late with an even quicker stacking of traps. And if the nerf come without compensation, caitlyn will just feel awful in her scaling (and I don't mean like having a bad midgame, I mean it will just entirely feel shitty)

Caitlyn's trap is certainly the thing I can't even figure how people on the board can think it is 'unfair' to face, and I overall think this kind of topic is due more to caitlyn being hated as she is a bully than caitlyn's number of trap making it broken and unfair.

Also, I truly think it is an elo problem as caitlyn is very strong in very high elo (D1+) but people also know how to position themselves and punish every advance she make, they know how to put their own pressure and to work for their lane. People here don't, so they keep saying "650 range" as an argument for why she is already so strong, but it is like saying "huge dmg" for brand and then saying he shouldn't have a stun or waveclear, or saying "high range" for lu and then saying her having CC or a shield is not necessary.

I don't know, caitlyn isn't about the trap by itself but about what the trap bring and it need numbers so it can be effective.

HalcyonDwellerJul 2, 20177 votes

To be fair, the reason people find the traps so frustrating is how binary they are.

Step on them = get harassed Leave them there = unable to position or farm correctly

It's a catch-22 that feels very bad because you're only allowed to choose between two bad options.

LegacyDAPJul 2, 20172 votes

So of course the original plan is bad. I just kinda came up with it quick in my head, and of course I don't agree with it now.

The new plan would be to make it 2/2/3/4/5 Caitlyn can charge up, Caitlyn can have 2/3/4/4/5 traps on the battlefield at once, with a 30/25/20/15/10, and finally when Caitlyn levels up her W she gets 1 trap as apposed to her W charging at the beginning of the game and her starting with 3 traps. The reason for this is that I actually agree Caitlyn should be able to have lane control, but it shouldn't be as oppressive as it is currently. She should actually have to scale to her ridiculous late game, not bully her opponents into giving it to her for free.

With these changes it makes it so she can at level 2 have bush control and still use traps to reapply CC if the enemy opponent gets CC'd in the time frame, but still succeeds in the original plan in preventing her from zoning you off turret early. This also makes it so at level 8 when she levels up her W again she can still place 3 traps at once but you have to charge the 3rd one up to be able to zone them off hard (for example you're in a long siege mid and you place both traps to zone them off, 25 seconds later you can place a 3rd one down to have 3 traps on the battlefield). The last thing this accomplishes is still making her late game good, it just makes it harder for Caitlyn's to auto win their lane into late game (4 items).

Caitlyn having less traps doesn't actually increase her damage output like you said. The reason why is because nobody is actually going to step into a Caitlyn trap unless under the circumstances they have a shield support or a heal support. Unfortunately, it's honestly a waste of resources to clear a single Caitlyn trap because they generally go through the shield or heal most of the time and waste your mana and put the ability on CD making you vulnerable. However, this doesn't decrease the DPS when you're all out fighting and you reapply CC by throwing a trap under them.

The other problem I have with your statement is that you said when she skirmishes she only get's one trap headshot. Caitlyn should NEVER get a trap headshot in a skirmish unless they blindly walk into it, or the support stuns them. The other problem with the statement that she only gets one trap headshot is she only got one trap headshot before in a skirmish. This is why I don't agree with you when you say it decreases her DPS.

Caitlyn's has never and will never depend on her support to be a bully with these changes because she already has the range to do so. It's literally not hard to abuse a 100-150 range advantage. People do it in my elo (Plat 1) all the time.

tl;dr - The changes don't actually make her weaker in skirmishes DPS wise nor do they make her depend on a support to be a lane bully. The changes have been revisioned and actually still give her the ability early to zone you off certain areas such as bushes, which is what they should be meant for in the first place.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 2, 20173 votes

The traps already have an incredibly high cooldown. She can have 3, but 3 traps in the lane is hardly enough room to zone anything except for maybe the lane bush or the wall opposite it.

Teriyaki BukkakeJul 3, 20171 votes

Ultimate abilities can be the most broken thing in the game at times, yet a high cooldown doesn't justify said ability being overpowered: not in any situation does cooldown alone justify an abilities unbalanced nature.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 1, 20177 votes

then how is she able to zone and protect her self with 1 trap ?

EedatJul 1, 201750 votes

I dunno, maybe use her highest early AA range to position safely and her escape tool? Even without her traps period shes an extremely safe ADC

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 1, 20174 votes

well all adcs are safe due to range and having a team protect them arent they?

EedatJul 1, 201710 votes

Not true. Try playing something like KogMaw who has 500 base AA range without his W with no escape or hard CC and see how safe you feel.

Like even Lucian 's dash is equivalent range as Caitlyn 's and he only has 500 AA range lol

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 1, 20174 votes

ya know there was a time in league where it was a "protect the carry " comp meta

and you couldnt get near or touch an adc cuz the entire team would protect and let a champ like KOG become the lil void monster hyper carry mix damage machine he is...

and if you protect and peel for adcs they are all safe

its the meta we have seen of late is where every one wants to be the SOLO carry pick carry/damage champs in all roles and it has became a "damage meta" hence the meme that the community started of LUL ADC 2017

EedatJul 1, 20176 votes

ya know there was a time in league where it was a "protect the carry " comp meta

and you couldnt get near or touch an adc cuz the entire team would protect and let a champ like KOG become the lil void monster hyper carry mix damage machine he is...

No, the theory is that you have to draft a comp to protect Kog or he just gets deleted every fight because he has no peel or mobility. You need other champions to help him because he's extremely vulnerable by himself. Its called a Juggermaw comp

Sexy Jack RabbitJul 2, 20173 votes

That's cuz he's a baby pupper and needs some protecting from the scary world.

Blakers1Jul 3, 20171 votes

Technically speaking, you're both right. The Protect the Kog'Maw comp was popular back in season 1-3 (Not sure which season exactly) in pro play that was the cause for Lulu's original nerfs all those years back. You'd play a tank top, support mid, support/tank jungle, and a support bottom.

The Juggermaw strategy isn't really that effective anymore due to being built around ITEMS and being much less reliant on teammates. Juggermaw existed due to his previous rework's interactions with on-hit items, while having massive shielding from Maw and Steraks.

TL;DR Juggermaw was an item build on Kog'Maw that is no longer possible due to Maw and Steraks sharing shield cooldowns. Protect the Kog'Maw is an incredibly old pro strategy that originates from as far back as season 1 based around drafting a team with one purpose: Protect the Kog'Maw.

EedatJul 3, 20171 votes

Uhhhhhhhh nobody built item 3156 on Kog (maybe you're thinking item 3091 ?) and item 3053 didnt even exist until the very end of Season 5

Blakers1Jul 3, 20171 votes

I think you completely missed the point here... Juggermaw became a thing because of the interaction between Maw and Stereks when their shields use to stack. He did build both of them as his 4th and 5th items, which caused the name of the Juggermaw build because he used items intended for Juggernauts as part of his full build. He had carry level damage with moderate tankyness. Protect the Kog'Maw is the strategy of building an entire team around a Kog'Maw with 0 defensive items. Juggermaw was invented in recent seasons with his last rework, while Protect the Kog'Maw was invented during Kog'Maw's original release. Never once did I imply that Sterak's was released before season 5.

TL;DR Reading comprehension OP

EedatJul 3, 20172 votes

Juggermaw became a thing because of the interaction between Maw and Stereks

What are you talking about? The Juggermaw was a strat used in seasons 2-3 (well more popular in those seasons at least). It had nothing to do with items. It it literally building a comp to protect Kog. An example would be Janna Support, Morg/Lulu Mid, Maokai top. It was called even called "Juggermaw" at the time. It's identical to "eggs in one basket" and "protect the ADC" comp but specifically with Kog at the center

Care to explain how Juggermaw became a thing because of item 3053 like 3-4 years before the item even existed?

Go youtube "Juggermaw" and you will find exactly ZERO videos of this item 3156 item 3053 build. DO IT.

So please dont insult my reading comprehension when you:

A) Obviously have zero clue what the fuck you're even talking about

B) Have zero reading comprehension of your own

aspects1Jul 2, 20173 votes

idk if you guys know, but this guy is a troll he pretty much just trolls on boards

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 2, 20172 votes

not a troll

just cuz i dont agree with the circle jerk dont make me a troll

aspects1Jul 3, 20171 votes

and i respect you for not going with the circlejerk and taking those downvotes instead, but there comes a point when your doing it just to antagonize the people reading that thread, and you dont actually care about the issue thats why i labeled you a troll

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 3, 20173 votes

you can label me whatever the fuk u want... you are wrong...

the boards are filled with hate threads of any champ who might be strong for whatever reason. if riot guts cait to the point its not worth playing then whatever champ is the strongest you will see the same kind of circle jerk. people wanna cry foul and blame rito and balance and etc say its a shit game instead of learning how to over come improve and become better players.

and i dont give two fuks about downvotes.. it dont mean its right or wrong. its just someone not liking what i have to say on the topic. and generally speaking its cuz i dont fall in line with the circle jerk. those so called 60 or so downvotes i received in this thread alone wont effect my 26k upvotes now will it ?

aspects1Jul 3, 20171 votes

i get your message and everything, and i understand your point of view, but i still think you take it too far

Teriyaki BukkakeJul 3, 20171 votes

Saying that a champion who clearly has a power/balance issue needs adressing? Woah man that is too far!!!

aspects1Jul 3, 20171 votes

you clearly didnt understand a thing i said, my point was, the boards take it too far and say every single thing in the game they dont like is unbalanced or needs to be fixed, but mrfawkinsunshine goes to the other extreme, where he says nothing needs to be fixed

Teriyaki BukkakeJul 4, 20171 votes

aspects1Jul 4, 20171 votes

do you even read what i say?

Teriyaki BukkakeJul 4, 20171 votes

/s = sarcasm dude lmaoooooooo

aspects1Jul 4, 20171 votes

i know that it makes no sense in the context you put it in

LegacyDAPJul 1, 20178 votes

This. It's stupid how crazy she can zone you level 1 without traps and rush level 2 easily. No reason she should be able to shove and then zone you off from your own cs at level 2 with 1 ability and aa range.

GrokmirJul 2, 20177 votes

They should just give traps the azir treatment and give them a duration decrease while in range of towers.

And I've seen people argue that she needs her traps to siege later in the game. I don't agree with that, but if it is the case, they can have the reduction scale down with levels or something.

Vah NaborisJul 1, 20173 votes

lol if you're not being aggressive against caitlyn then of course she's going to push you under tower

LegacyDAPJul 1, 201723 votes

It's not easy to "be aggressive" against the longest range champion in the game. Unless I pick something like Draven, it's not happening. Caitlyn will outdamage any ADC early game just because of her range. You literally are forced to let her push in so you can't get hit as much.

I'm just going to reiterate it a bit. She outdamages early because she'll always get an extra auto or possibly two when you try to stop trading with her; leave her aa range.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 2, 20171 votes

A list of champions that out duel caitlyn early if you actually all-in her: Vayne Lucian Kogmaw Corki Draven Xayah Tristana Sometimes Jinx Sometimes Sivir Sometimes Ezreal

List of champions who lose to cait if you let her poke you and never engage All of them.

Teriyaki BukkakeJul 3, 20171 votes

What you meant to say was: "A list of champions that have a chance to out duel caitlyn early if you actually all-in her and shes 100% alone"

Sp33d Zer0Jul 3, 20171 votes

No what I meant to say was A list of champions that out duel caitlyn early if you actually all-in her: Vayne Lucian Kogmaw Corki Draven Xayah Tristana Sometimes Jinx Sometimes Sivir Sometimes Ezreal

List of champions who lose to cait if you let her poke you and never engage All of them.

If she is alone, sure you beat her 1v1. You have a support and she has a support and again ANY of these champions can easily out duel her as long as you don't muck up the fight.

6obETSj7H7Jul 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WXIOsW4Q,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-07-02T08:49:57.042+0000)

A list of champions that out duel caitlyn early if you actually all-in her: Vayne Lucian Kogmaw Corki Draven Xayah Tristana Sometimes Jinx Sometimes Sivir Sometimes Ezreal

List of champions who lose to cait if you let her poke you and never engage All of them.

I can literally hit for free as cait every champ you named here with the only exception of Kogmaw if his W is up.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 3, 20171 votes

I can literally trade with Caitlyn on any of these champions I listed and do so in 30% of my games as an adc

PhoenixOfHeavenJul 1, 20172 votes

I mean. Yeah Cait's in a horrid spot. But I agree with you on one point: If you're super agro, she's hilariously easy to kill early game. Literally kill her before she hits level 2. Sure she still has insane poke, but she'll be a bit behind. Cait, I've found, is a champ who is exceptionally easy to play against if you have the right support. For example, champs like Leona or Taric Who play very well super offensive make her lane hilarious.

LegacyDAPJul 1, 20175 votes

And if you don't have Leona, or if they pick a support that can kite that or anti aggress? (i.e. Janna, Soraka, Thresh, Lulu)

Counterpicking shouldn't be something to balance a champion around.

PhoenixOfHeavenJul 2, 20174 votes

Of course of course! Just because a blind exists dosnt mean AA-base champs should be allowed to roam free. I get it, Cait isn't in a healthy spot at all, but it isn't so bad with the right champs.

LegacyDAPJul 2, 20172 votes

Yeah, I can agree with that. If you pick something that can heavily dive onto her like Leona then I can see where she might be bad. However, with current supports like Lulu, Janna, Thresh it's really easy to just peel Leona off of your ADC and actually kill her. Leona is kinda in a bad spot.

Taric is actually really good because he has a super useful ult for diving and team fighting, but I can't imagine Taric really does much against Caitlyn. Caitlyn's AA range and E both get him off fairly easily. Caitlyn has to be bad to actually let him get in range most of the time. Same goes for most melee supports that get that close to Caitlyn.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 3, 20171 votes

so there are ways in the game via team comps/ match ups items etc to beat and counter caitlyn?

isnt league a game of picking and counterpicking to take advantage of weakness or to exploit your strengths? like certain champs are good vs a certain type and so on...

items in game do counter certain types of damage? items to give certain damages to counter defensiveness ? and so on?

i mean if im wrong be sure to correct me here... and downvote me i only have about 75 or so far on this thread