This 20 minute herald buff.

TheLittlestLulu·May 4, 2016·150 votes·24,247 views

My brain hurts just thinking about this change. What in the hell is Riot going for with this? Who even remotely wanted this. What problems is this supposed to solve?

199 Comments

RiotMeddlerMay 4, 201654 votes

Our intent with the changes to Rift Herald are to shift it to a similar spot to dragon - a buff of moderate power that, once taken, gives benefit for most of the game. Original design for the change was a permanent buff like Dragon. That was pretty promising, but felt excessive late in the game, where split push can already feel really hard to deal with, given how fast towers fall to split pushing at that point. To address that, and to give teams playing against the buff another success condition (weather the storm during the mid game until the buff expires if needs be) we opted for long, but finite, duration instead.

MunchCrunchLunchMay 4, 201622 votes

I like the idea of making it useful. but champions like zed or any 1v1 split pusher might get too much from it. I mean Imagine giving that buff to a zed. nobody is gonna even try to go on a lane by himself without knowing where the zed is. I guess to early to judge the buff. these kind of things will be shown clearly in pro play whether its too good or just ok

Steel BlossomMay 5, 20162 votes

Squishies should NEVER go into a lane without knowing where the enemy assassin is.

VekknaMay 4, 20167 votes

I think people are wondering how a brainstorming session ended with "Y'know what top-lane tanks/bruisers/juggernauts need? Two free extra Keystone masteries for 20 minutes!"

And I think people are wondering how that idea wasn't immediately shut down.

midoriiMay 4, 20167 votes

I like this change a lot.

Herald needed something to make it important, something drastically strong enough to be on par with what the dragon(s) had to offer. I love the unique idea that he doesn't respawn at all.

This is a one time buff, a one time opportunity, and requires a strategic coordinated response. Is it needed to win? No. But for it to be worth risking in the first place, it needs to be better than good. It needs to provide something extra.

This puts a lot of tension on that area of the map early game. You could fight to get it, or both sides could avidly fight to ensure no one gets it. In the end it's achieving it's goal, which is bringing top lane and that area of the map closer to the rest of the game.

StankyMuffMay 4, 20169 votes

The buff is too concentrated and powerful though. Giving a measly 6% AP and AD buff to an entire team is one thing. Giving a single laner absolute control over their lane for 20 minutes straight is outrageous.

What is the counterplay when a Morgana, Riven, Kassadin, Zed, Ahri, Ezreal, Lulu, etc gets this buff? They would be extremely difficult to gank and impossible to 1v1.

RiotMeddlerMay 4, 201610 votes

If Rift Herald buff is granting absolute lane control we'll nerf it heavily. Because it's a long duration buff it should provide an edge, but not decide situations unless they're pretty close already. It is intended to decide close encounters however given its a strategic objective you have to make some trade offs to take (lack of jungle pressure elsewhere, laner missing for a bit, not taking dragon or towers at that time etc).

sp441May 4, 20161 votes

Have you considered allowing people who kill the buff carrier to take the buff for themselves?

toxıc sIutMay 5, 20169 votes

that would, for one, gut its power, and for two, go against the goal they have for the buff, a buff that contests dragon that is around for most of the game. If it shifts from person to person it becomes a much, much worse investment.

Solo JoshMay 4, 20163 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddlerMay 4, 201612 votes

It's possible it's too long, it's also possible it should be a permanent buff. 20 minutes is our best estimate off internal testing of how long that buff should last. Wouldn't be surprised if we ended up changing that duration, or the time Rift Herald spawns, in a follow up balance patch though, depending on what outcomes we see. As with pre-season mid-season's going to be a period with a couple of patches of significant followup work.

blessthekellenMay 5, 201613 votes

Dont you feel that having a permanent buff that only 1 team can have SIGNIFICANTLY favors that team to win?

I feel like you should look at the winning % that it gives after receiving that buff of how often that team wins, that should tell you whether or not you guys screwed up.

CosnirakMay 5, 20162 votes

What you're describing is the same as the dragon buffs. And clearly the team that takes the first dragon does not win that much more often enough to find it overpowered.

I feel like you should look at the winning % that it gives after receiving that buff of how often that team wins, that should tell you whether or not you guys screwed up.

Meddler has made it super clear that that is exactly the sort of thing they are going to be looking at.

blessthekellenMay 5, 20162 votes

It is not the same as Dragon buffs. Dragon can spawn randomly. More than 1 dragon type can spawn.

Rift Herald spawns once. Thats it. Whoever kills it, the member gets the buff, no one else in the game will.

CosnirakMay 5, 20162 votes

Indeed, it is not identical. However each potential dragon kill is unique. Every time a team gets it that's it, it's gone, that's something they got and the other team didn't. They keep it forever. Killing the next dragon doesn't change who got the previous one, it's still 1-1 instead of the 2-0 it could have been.

The new rift herald buff is suitably weak and lasts for 20 minutes. It doesn't work when near allies. Just think of the new rift herald buff like a dragon buff, except mostly weaker.

RiotMeddlerMay 5, 201619 votes

Taking any form of contested objective increases a teams chances to win, whether that's a permanent buff, permanent XP, permanent gold or a window of power that can be leveraged to offer permanent power. Any objective that doesn't measurably increase a team's chance to win isn't worth taking, and so will simply end up as irrelevant and ignored. Our goal as a result is to position objective rewards in a place where they're appealing, and worth the risk, but not don't overly decide the game.

Chance to win after taking objectives is one of the things we track, yes.

LankPantsMay 5, 201621 votes

I think the point is more that there's always a way to counter other objective takes and level it up after.

If you take a drag we can set up in 6 minutes and take one to be relatively even. You take a tower and we can push one down to level out the gold. You take Herald and give it to your top lanner and we have no options, your guy just gets to be stronger for the next 20 minutes and there's nothing we can really do to even that out.

RendarkanMay 5, 20162 votes

Have you considered making the effect benefit a team that is more behind?

Just a thought - Kinda like how minions reflect the overall team why not make the buff do the same but adjust to how the overall team is doing? It would slow already ahead champions and help out those behind to give them a fighting chance. That way it could prevent an overkill snowballer like nasus who can take it at the 15 minute mark than stack a Baron buff on it a few times before it expires. Or is that something that won't work cause of technical reasons?

RalanrMay 4, 201630 votes

It's a fucking nightmare on paper. I'm really scared of it for champions like Yi.

JasiwelMay 4, 20169 votes

Agreed. I like almost every other change in this patch, but this one was super weird. A 20 minute super-buff? I get that they're trying to make top lane less isolated...BUT COME ON GUYS. Abuse cases for this situation should have been obvious from the start. Dragon buffs must be REALLY nice because this new Rift Herald buff is just insane. For 20 minutes (which is where my hang-up is at, to be honest).

TallyZrgMay 4, 201611 votes

Keep in mind that the buff only works when no allied champions are nearby, so you can't teamfight with it.

With this change Riot is trying to make it so that early game champions are considered instead of blatantly ignored (Champions such as Renekton and the like).

The best use would be for split push champions where they will be alone most of the time.

JasiwelMay 4, 20169 votes

It still makes 1v1 champions even more difficult to deal with in lane. As others have said, champs like Xin and Irelia are going to have a blast with it. Imagine trying to fight a splitpushing Jax or Tryndamere with the buff (for 20 minutes).

TallyZrgMay 4, 20165 votes

Guess you'll have to "adapt" to that eventuality or "plan" against it. It's almost like Riot said these things in the patch notes somewhere...

My Waifu VanillaMay 4, 20169 votes

Or remember that RH has like 13k health so no one should be surprised if top lane gets it because it takes FOREVER to kill (even with backstabbing).

PDE5 InhibMay 4, 201622 votes

inb4 games end before herald buff ends.

Vistha KaiMay 4, 20162 votes

Aren't they already?

HigeMay 4, 201617 votes

In order to understand this change you need to take a look at League's history, in the past, baron's pit was completely empty, it made top lane an island with almost no interactions whatsoever, with the addition of rift herald top laners had a closer objective to fight for but in reality the buff was dismissed way too easy, top laners would often just get rift herald if they happened to go by, the buff was good but they didn't feel like it was worth the risk... now, the buff has to be contended, top laners are forced to interact with junglers, and fights are going to happen on baron's pit during early game or hell will break free.

With this change maybe top laners will stop going with teleport and start using ignite or heal or exhaust in order to increase their dueling potential. As a matter of fact if a top teleports bot, it's FREE herald for the enemy top/jungler so, think about that twice.

NhicuuMay 4, 20162 votes

agreed

ImmortalBloodCYMay 4, 20164 votes

Contented buff with jungler and top?....

As a Heimerdinger I welcome all the sacrifices :P

WoonStruckMay 4, 20161 votes

In most games I've played or watched, people just ignore it because its still not worth the risk due to how long it lasts and 0 countermeasures being place.

It only helps the team with the lead more. Similar to Baron. Not worth taking 99% of the time due to the risk associated with it. By the time you can reliably coordinate to take it safely, Baron already killed it. There are some cases where it is worth taking, but the payout even then doesn't look to make a significant difference unless its just because its a buff to someone who's already broken, which isn't good for the game in itself.

HigeMay 4, 20161 votes

I don't think that baron is not worth taking 99% of the time, there are situations during which the right choice is in fact taking baron, specially since baron buff is probably equal to taking down at least 1 turret or more from the enemy team.

Coordinated players will be able to take advantage of rift herald a lot more than people who can't focus properly, this is true for dragon and even for baron as well. The team with the lead does have a higher chance to acquire the buff but it is the jungler's job to fight that objective, if he manages to steal it, he would have avoided a crazy snowball or even he could be effectively equalizing teams. Jungling isn't about focus ganking one lane anymore, in fact it never was but now they must keep higher attention on legendary monsters or face a probable defeat.

It's not only the jungler's job to keep an eye on the herald but top must also AT LEAST keep it warded, again, coordinated teams have a crazy advantage here. If the enemy team rushes the herald under your nose, you deserve to be set back during the time the buff lasts, but admittedly it's not end of the world, the longer the enemy with the buff stays alive, the worse his effects are going to be, so the natural answer, once again, is to focus on taking that person down.

Currently people is ignoring rift herald because its effects aren't completely understood, I played a game where the enemy team wasn't aware of the power from dragons and we got 4 dragons for free, 3 of them were infernal dragons... Since I played adc I didn't know how the interaction with herald was but judging by how the game went on, I think the enemy Jungler didn't even try to get it and lost a huge chance of making a big impact.

RIPDustyMay 4, 20161 votes

Except that the buff lasts through death, unless i read the patch notes wrong.

ScyvisMay 4, 20163 votes

I could be mistaken but I think he is saying that they cant use the buff while dead/walking back to lane. So by focusing them you can mitigate the damage they can cause with it

WoonStruckMay 4, 201615 votes

Its not supposed to solve problems.

Its supposed to create problems.

Cause Riot still knows what they're doing. :^)

Anyway, they could have easily made it a stacking buff that would allow top-laners to dive/tank better. Accomplishes the same thing without being stupid.

Meep ManMay 4, 201615 votes

I'm not here to complain, so I'm just going to take my more Objective focused, early game Top Laners like Illaoi, Nasus, and such and get my 20 minute Super Soldier buff.

Besides, why didn't you guys speak up about this while it was in testing?

WoonStruckMay 4, 201618 votes

Irelia's going to be insane with this change.

And a lot of people mentioned it during testing.

RalanrMay 4, 201612 votes

Irelia ?! http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/random-ness/images/9/9f/Darth_vader_no.gif/revision/latest?cb=20120616003315

Meep ManMay 4, 20162 votes

Jax Our lord and savior has come no worries.

ChoaruMay 4, 20162 votes

What about teeto :C or Heimerdinger

dEAdbUsMay 4, 20161 votes

What Heimer can do if anyone can dive him with hexdrinker and sterak?

charcharmunroMay 4, 20164 votes

Well, Maw and Sterak's no longer have stacking shields. The other effects of them do still happen, but only one shield.

SaphixiaMay 4, 20163 votes

Better Nerf Irelia Threads Intensify

NoSkillShrekingMay 4, 201664 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sOPku9ru,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-05-04T14:47:01.286+0000)

I'm not here to complain, so I'm just going to take my more Objective focused, early game Top Laners like Illaoi, Nasus, and such and get my 20 minute Super Soldier buff.

Besides, why didn't you guys speak up about this while it was in testing?

We did, unfortunately the boards got flooded with inane crap about whoever this Tyler douche was so nobody could actually say anything.

Meep ManMay 4, 20168 votes

Note to forums, keep actually gameplay related stuff on focus in the gameplay section.

Kuroi86May 4, 20168 votes

Um... wait. The change to the Rift Herald came out on 4/19. Three weeks ago. This bs about what's his name took up what? 4-5 days?

tooomineMay 5, 201613 votes

actually.... the rift herald change came out today.

the PBE is a beta, dog, and riot has speial PBE forums for discussion of PBE shit.

This thread is appropriate given the time of the release, AND the context for which this board deals.

but AYYY, keep griefing people who speak up about the changes when they encounter them, dog. Gj!

RandomoniumMay 4, 20166 votes

It draws attention to top lane which is greatly needed with the new Dragon buffs. Without the change the game would become even more bot lane centric.
It makes split pushing more viable which is really important since they buffed towers and made split pushing harder.

WoonStruckMay 4, 20165 votes

{quoted}

It draws attention to top lane which is greatly needed with the new Dragon buffs. Without the change the game would become even more bot lane centric.

Agreed.

It makes split pushing more viable which is really important since they buffed towers and made split pushing harder.

The buff shouldn't spawn until 8-10 minutes.

6 is way too early. That determines the entire game if its taken early on. If its kept in the game, counter-measures need to be added to help against notorious split-pushers who would become entirely over-bearing with herald buff. Especially AD ones.

My Waifu VanillaMay 4, 20163 votes

It is also INCREDIBLY difficult to take at 6 minutes where the top laner and jungler are just about to hit 6 (and probably have no recalled). RH has like 13k health and does take a good amount of time to take at that stage of the game (and will potentially just straight out kill you) even with the backstabs. If you just let your top laner walk down to herald and spend probably close to a minute attacking it with his jungler UNCONTESTED then yes you should be punished for it.

Another thing to note, is the later you take it (when it is easier) makes the buff significantly "weaker". The buff does ABSOLUTELY nothing in a group setting which ~17 minutes (at the latest) people start grouping as 5 and typically do not split up as much. In order to benefit from your "buff" you literally CANNOT group with your team leaving your team in a 4v5 in hopes that they do not get hard engaged on (flash malphite ult or something that you simply cannot stop from happening) and you can take multiple towers. The buff is also extremely a "win harder" situation since if you are behind with it.....that little bit of %DR is not going to save you from simply dying if you are already 1/4 or something. Likewise, if you are already 4/1 then the %DR wouldn't have mattered in this situation either since you are already so far ahead.