they really require mechanics that many beginner players can't pick up easily. they also have low mobility and poor early game which tend totgive beginners a difficult time. with garen being extremely simple, i think sivir should replace ashe and annie should replace ryze.
edit:majority of the comment suggest caitlyn is probabaly beter as a beginner adc than sivir and ashe.
RiotMeddler57 votesWe'll likely remove Ryze from the beginner champion pool at some point, he's definitely harder than a lot of other mages that would be better fits there. Annie's a likely replacement should we do that. She can be pretty tough to play in some match ups, but not in ways that are relevant to new players. Bots don't sit at range and poke masterfully, take advantage of her CD/passive windows, zone with kill threat etc. She's also pretty easy to grasp conceptually, which is often as important when first learning the game as actual ease of execution.
Ashe by contrast we do think's a good fit for starting players. She is quite hard to play against experienced people, as with Annie though she's pretty easy to play against bots and has easily grasped skills.
Malicious Fury6 votesStill waiting for more Annie in Wonderland shards. I have one!.... Anywho yay for Annie! ^_^
https://49.media.tumblr.com/dd10a856a4cdf7fb7aa7bc53ede59045/tumblr_mlvin0jNML1spqzaeo1_400.gif
Mandaari27 votesCan you at least stop recommending thornmail? The first tutorial does more harm than good for new players.
Sharjo2 votesI believe the actual reason that's a thing is to prevent the player from dying to anything aside from turrets. Something like that anyway.
RiotMeddler19 votesThe Thornmail recommendation does feel pretty weird to people that know how the game's played, with you there. We haven't seen any evidence that it's confusing new players though, when we've looked into it they're not rushing Thornmail on everyone, going defense on Ashe more than any other champ or anything similar. Thornmail was originally recommended given the massive defence that much armor offers against physical damage and the way it ensures that even a player who's failing to click/kill minions still sees the tutorial proceed via the passive damage.
TLDR: Thornmail on Ashe is weird, we're not seeing any evidence it's harming new players learning, it does help the tutorial proceed.
Pikmints19 votesPart of me wants to say that is a really clever way to ensure that the tutorial progresses, but another part wants to say that someone's ability to issue attack commands should be adequately emphasized by the time they enter a match.
Mandaari7 votesI obviously don't have statistics do back up my statement, but I've played my fair share of bot games with completely new players. A lot of them that are on their first or second game say they've played the first tutorial and then skipped the second. They generally have no idea of how items work or what items synergize with their champion.
Why would you want to progress the tutorial if they're not succeeding at clicking/killing minions? Isn't the point of the tutorial to make sure they know what they're doing? If the minions just passively die for seemingly no reason then that's teaching them the wrong thing.
The Deckowner2 votesannie will be amazing, thank you!
Sniper 02 votesYou guys are trying to make more Annie players... [zombie-nunu-tears]
kaltenashes2 votesWe'll likely remove Ryze from the beginner champion pool at some point
isnt one of his rework goals meant to make him easier to play?
RiotMeddler8 votesWe'd like to make him less punishing for people who haven't played him much while they learn the nuances of his kit. That's pretty different though from being a champion that's easy to grasp for people new to League of Legends entirely.
Zedex1 votesYeah, if you could make Annie any easier to play, that'd be great.
(Bill Lumberg sarcasm)
OyddAWqJ5r14 votesI'd say 
instead. 
's ult is pretty lackluster for anyone on an uncoordinated team. And at low level, that's 100% of the time. On the other hand Miss Fortune's is one of the most satisfying while still maintaining a relatively simple playstyle.
Also why is 
a beginner champ? Lol. When we have champs like 
billxx2 votesFor whatever reason kha and wukong are on there as well
OyddAWqJ5r7 votesProbably because their kits are so straightforward. Kha's definitely is other than the whole isolation thing which shouldn't be too hard to pickup.
These champs are all meant to be played in a lane by the way, so you don't have to worry about low levels not being able to jungle with Kha. Noone low level can jungle period. Largely due to lack of runes.
TurquoiseYoshi1 votesLiss isn't that bad for new players. She's got a thing that hits a lot of things, a thing that does more damage around you, a thing that does some damage (and maybe you learn that it's a dash), and a thing that locks a thing in place. Brand MIGHT be easier, but you have to remember that these guys are completely new to the game, and possibly to MOBAs, and honestly may not understand the R bounce and Q stun. The others have really awkward kits (for a new player) with a lot of strange bonus effects from their passives.
OyddAWqJ5r1 votesMy thought process with Brand is that new peeps will spam their skills. Eventually I'm sure they'd learn that hitting Q on a burning target stuns it and what the other blaze effects do. But even without knowing how to combo, Brand is extremely effective when you simply press EQWR.
TurquoiseYoshi2 votesThat is true, but you could say the same about Lissandra, and she has reliable slows and stuns to allow these players to slowly chunk away bots and other low-level players.
Slythion12 votesI'd rather have Caitlyn over Sivir to be honest. Sivir requires timing mechanics with her spellshield and engage awareness with ult, not to mention mana control and poking mechanics during her laning phase. It isn't a big deal for experienced players, but with even the basics of farming and stuff not yet mastered it could be too much for new players.
Caitlyn can farm from a safe range and is a fairly easy lane bully that falls off in the mid game and has another power spike for late game. She's safe with easy farming mechanics (same with Annie and Garen who both have abilities to sufficiently farm) and has a decent escape as well which all beginning adcs I feel should have.
Imperial Japan2 votesI'd rather have Caitlyn over Sivir to be honest. Sivir requires timing mechanics with her spellshield and engage awareness with ult, not to mention mana control and poking mechanics during her laning phase. It isn't a big deal for experienced players, but with even the basics of farming and stuff not yet mastered it could be too much for new players.
Caitlyn can farm from a safe range and is a fairly easy lane bully that falls off in the mid game and has another power spike for late game. She's safe with easy farming mechanics (same with Annie and Garen who both have abilities to sufficiently farm) and has a decent escape as well which all beginning adcs I feel should have.
New players will go meelee for with Cait and won't know how to bully in lane just sayin
Rain NT10 votesCaitlyn should replace Ashe. And prob Annie or Lux (lux so they can learn to land simple skill shots).
Aeszarck8 votesAshe's lack of mobility allows a lot of power to be frontloaded into her kit, however. Most new players won't be able to take advantage of the mobility that many other marksmen/markswomen/marksmanimals have, and so therefore won't be getting all of the effective power out of the champion's kit. I'd rather not have to deal with dodging spells with spells as a new player.
I definitely agree with the Ryze thing though. He's hard as hell to play optimally, even with the 5-spell arcane overcharge nerf.
Westonbirt1 votesAshe also forces new players who might not understand how to build to begin with to juggle with a faffy, entirely unique passive.
Feathermane4 votesAnnie, with her short range, medium cooldowns and finnicky passive, is orders of magnitude harder than most mages champions. I guarantee Vel'Koz, Morgana, Swain are easier, and they aren't the only ones.
morris16 votesPlease tell me you didn't just call Annie harder than Vel'Koz.
TotalJerk2 votesWell I'd personally argue that poke mages are a lot more forgiving than their short ranged counterparts. With TF, Viktor, or Annie if you make a bad call about when to start casting it means death. For poke mages you can just hang back and throw spells even if it isn't always the most optimal choice. I'm not saying poke mages are definitively easier, but Vel'koz is definitely easier in same ways and harder in others.
Verdade2 votesOh god, people with 0 games played as Vel'koz commenting Q_Q Poke mages are extremely hard for newbies because of thier positioning requirements. They can't kill unless you unleash whole kit, they die to breeze if caught and they are skill-shot reliant. Also they require much higher knowledge of enemy champions - it doesn't matter how many dashes enemy has if your abilities are targeted and point-click like Annies, but heck it does when you need to predict all 3/4 of your kit
TotalJerk3 votesOh god, people with 0 games played as Vel'koz commenting Q_Q
I just played a game with Vel'koz 3 days ago, and he's my 9th highest mastery champion. Where the fuck are you pulling that assumption from?
Verdade2 votesVel'koz has 2% play rate and is played primarily by mains, that is a fact. He's like good ol' Heimy, small player base but you don't see people playing him casually. It's just infuriating to suddently see 812516 Vel'koz players, commenting about how easy he is, and even comparing him to Annie as far difficulty goes...
Also, buying Liandry's on Vel is wasted item slot, unless you also buy Sorcerer Shoes. Guise is not upgraded into Liandry's until late-game, it's the flat pen you want. If you don't get shoes it's pointless. But hey, you should know that as he is your 9th highest mastery champion.
Cosnirak2 votesHis play rate is partially so low because he cost 6300 IP. This season early on there was a bug that let people play free rotation champs even if they didn't own them in ranked games. I played Vel'koz this way and crushed massively in mid lane. It was like my 3rd time playing him ever. Is that just one anecdote? Of course. But honestly he's not that hard to play. Even sub optimal builds on him do plenty of damage because Vel doesn't rely on items to do a lot of damage, which is why he also gets played support some times (such as the ranked game I just played in where he was top damage to champs on his team as support).
There are 0 champions that are just always easy to play to their maximum potential, not even Garen, but that's not very relevant to new players. What matters to do them are ease of grasping the basic concepts of how that champ functions and how punishing it is to mess up common stuff on that champ. However the punishing part is in the context of bots and (ideally, though smurfs make this not so true) other new players. Vel'koz isn't all that punishing in that context and he's easy to grasp. Forget all the e-penis crap over how hard or easy it is to play different champs, those are the factors for new players.
The Deckowner38 votesu just said velkoz is easier to play than annie....
Maximum Morde18 votesVelkoz isn't easer than Annie, but he certainly isn't hard. He has a simple, easy to use kit, not much of a mana problem compared to other mages, safe range, and fun lasers. Overall he is more effective in a broader set of circumstances for low elo players by simple virtue of range.
The Deckowner8 voteslong range=harder to aim=not good for beginners
do u even play velkoz? he is such a squishy champion with his entire kit being immobile and skillshot oriented, his mana cost also isn't low enough to the point that u can spam all u want.
compae to annie, point and click stun, point and blank burst, mana refund on q, amazing for beginner.
Maximum Morde6 votesAnnie is amazing for a beginner. Q for last hitting is phenomenal and you don't have to deal with aiming. However, you will find yourself out ranged by most opponents meaning you will eat quite a bit of damage and most champions can win trades against her just fine unless you can close the gap with flash. New players don't have flash, and even when you do, it's a long cooldown.
Velkoz doesn't have that issue. His skill shots travel fast, other than Q, and are some of the easiest in the game to land. He does consistently high damage that while not as easy to land as Annies, come from far away and is among the easiest of the skillshot mages to apply.
My point is, Velkoz is not hard like some people seem to think. I have been playing him off and on since his release and have lvl 5 mastery on him and Annie on multiple accounts. When Annie has a favorable matchup, she is oppressive as hell. When she doesnt, she is a boat anchor tied around her team that they can occasional get a lucky throw onto the enemy with a flash Tibers. Velkoz has far fewer bad matchups and they are less harmful to him thanks to safe range farming.
You can't go wrong putting either of those champions into the hand of a beginner.
Mazariamonti1 votesAs far as her range goes you're not thinking about it from a beginner's perspective. The very concept of trading in general usually takes months to understand and is difficult to master in practice for everyone. But the same can be said of velkoz, the understanding of the game which is required to take advantage of his weaknesses isn't really done until much later. Though really just based off the mechanic on the q I don't think he should be for beginners, not when there are champions like Annie, Swain, ect.
Maximum Morde4 votesThe q is super easy to understand once you've fires it a couple times. Make a T isn't complex as people like to exaggerate with him. It's just a slower skillshot that adds to its difficulty imo, not the branching.
I'd rule out Swain for new players because he has very real mana issues until you understand a lot more about the game.
Arakadia4 votesAs a Vel'Koz player, I know this is right. However I like to tell myself he takes alot of complex mechanics when I get a kill or juke someone out. xD
billxx1 votesMommy look! An idiot!
Aeszarck14 votesDon't call people who you disagree with idiots, especially in such a cavalier fasion. We want to promote thoughtful discussion, not attacks.
billxx3 votesMate what he said wasn't an opinion. And you're right, I shouldn't have been so mean, just I get pissed by people who say the super easy champs they main are hard to play when they aren't. It's fine to play easy champs, as long as you recognize they are easy.
Aeszarck7 votesIt is an opinion, Feathermane just made it seem like his or her opinion was fact. Everyone sees champions differently because everyone has different playstyles. Someone with excellent strategy may find Tryndamere an easy champion because he or she knows when and how to split-push effectively. Another person with not so good strategy but excellent mechanics might find Riven a better fit, and Tryndamere's playstyle more difficult and boring.
Also, thanks for admitting that you were mean. Takes maturity to do that.
TyroneWatermelon1 votesReplace Ashe with Vayne/Sivir and Ryze with Annie/Lux. Maybe add a support like Soraka and Sona
Slythion12 votesreplace Ashe with Vayne? One of the most mechanically difficult adc's in the game?
TyroneWatermelon1 votesVayne is not mechanical. Anyway,she can help new players escape with her simple kit,do damage and control mobility,starting with a little roll,getting them ready for new champs
Zedex10 votesIf your opinion is that Vayne is simple and requires no mechanics, then I'm sorry to say you've never played her and you're terribly biased from losing to her so much.
if by the off chance you somehow play her(I just can't possibly see this, considering how ignorant you are of her playstyle) it must be on your level 12 smurf to trash new players with. Theres no way you've ever used her against good players.
kile1477 votesShe has a very large skill curve, but her kit is very simple compared to someone like Gnar or Azir. All she does for damage is right click, and her W and ult basically just enable better right clicking. She's certainly difficult to play well but nobody is going to get a headache understanding how her kit works.
billxx1 votesNah she has a lot of mechanics I tried playing her and I got destroyed
kile1475 votesBecause positioning, timing the dodges, and getting the stun is all tricky to pull off and requires skill and experience, but it's all clear to understand. Vayne is a very mechanically intensive champ, but her entire kit simple and easy to understand.
Quepha2 votesAll she does for damage is right click
But she has to constantly Q in a direction and then go right click a target, right clicking the wrong target causes her to lose her stacks and resets her silver bolt potential. This gives her a high APM and a high demand for accuracy all while reading the field expertly to know when you should Q towards vs. away from enemy champions so you can get those silver bolts procs vs. stay safe.
It is not easy to play Vayne. When you are playing with an inexperienced Vayne player it is very obvious and very sad.
