State of thornmail, why not make it a component item?

Spoofghoul··52 votes·3,812 views

So thornmail doesn't seem very effective right now

It is basically cheap armor but without health and health regen it wont make you that much more tanky. Meanwhile other armor items give us a bunch of other stats aswell as some utilities deadmans plate for example gives us mobility and a small amount of on hit damage and potentially a slow provided you stack up that momentum. Frozen hearth whilst not giving any extra health does give us the aura which reduces everyones attackspeed and it also gives mana and cdr so you can use abilities more often.

Thornmail gives a passive which returns damage on auto attacks. However this is only a small amount of damage. And whilst it never has been very effective vs on hit builds we see more often today riot made somewhat the right move by giving it a flat amount of damage return scaling with armor, this is more effective vs on hits then it was before. But its still not much good untill you get 400 bonus armor becuase only then it starts to become noticeable.

Rather then straight up buffs like make it do tons more damage on return or give it 5000 armor yadayada.

Why not make it a component part of a bigger item. Right now most tank items cost between 2500-3000 gold and get outscaled by the more expensive damage items come lategame. A few good lategame scaling tank items would be nice to have no?

So what if it was part of stronger more expensive item. Lets call it demonic thorned armor.

Price would be something like 3500-3800 Component items: item 3075 item 1006 item 1006 item 1029 So it would still have the somewhat awkward buildpath to thornmail itself then also a somehwta awkward buildpath to its final form, but getting 2 powerspikes a small one on completion of thornmail and a bigger one on completion of demonic thorned armor. The awkward buildpath and somewhat ineffectiveness of the component items along the way is part of its intended weakness.

So what would the final item look like stat wise and what would it do? Well it is similar in thornmail but stronger and has extra passives+ active. For now ill just go with max cost.

Cost 3800 Armor 115 100% Health regen

Unique passive: Reduces Physical damage taken by 10% Unique passive: Increases effectiveness of all sources of healing by 1% for every 4% missing health. Unique passive: Reflects 15% of the physical damage taken (+ 25% bonus armor) (+ 25% bonus magic resist) from basic attacks and on-hit effects back to its source as magic damage (Calculated before any resistances or reductions are taken into account).

Active:Thorns shoot out in all directions dealing 100% of magic resist as damage to all units within 400 units range and slows them by 50% for 0,25 seconds, And applies a bleed effect dealing 100% of armor in magic damage over 5 seconds applying grievous wounds for the same duration. 60 seconds cooldown

The goal of this bigger item is to help out tanks a bit with a stronger lategame item. It does have its downsides becuase of the awkward buildpath but will eventually reward you with a strong item. The item in general will be a bit better vs AD because of the damage reduction passive making the stacking of armor for its damage return passive less punishable vs items like black cleaver and the last whispers. The demonic thorned armor will also synergize a bit better with magic resist items so its more viable vs mixed damage comps. The increased damage return because fo the extra magic resist scaling also addresses the on hit builds as the return damage has that extra scaling and doesnt punish you for buying magic resist to protect against some of the on hit effects.

Bit of a long post ^^ but i think i managed to explain my idea well enough.

68 Comments

ltmetal11 votes

I like your idea. I upvoted and hope you receive good visibility, but here is some advice to tweak your future item theorycrafting.

First some generic advice about your item. There is no need to make Demonic Thorns cost 3800 when you can just lower Thornmail's price point by giving it the Warden's Mail treatment.

Thornmail item 1029 + item 1029 + 400g 40 Armor (800g) UNIQUE Passive - Thorns: Upon being hit by a basic attack, reflects magic damage back to your attacker equal to 15% of your bonus Armor. (Thornmail is 80% gold efficient without its passive)

This enables you to get more creative with the build path while also maintaining the item's utility and lowering it to a price point suitable for tank income (remember that tanks are most encouraged in low income positions).

Turret Bane Armor item 3075 + item 2053 + 700g 100 Armor (2000g) 150% Base Health Regen (450g) UNIQUE Passive - Thorns: Upon being hit by a basic attack or turret shot, reflects magic damage back to your attacker equal to 25% of your bonus Armor plus 15% of the incoming damage. UNIQUE Passive - Point Runner: Builds up to 20% Movement Speed while near turrets and fallen turrets. (Demonic Thorned Armor is 84.48% gold efficient without its passives, and is 111.72% efficient with maximum stacks of Point Runner)

Second, gold efficiency is an extremely important part of balancing items. I use this wiki link to calculate gold efficiency for theorycrafting purposes. Running the numbers, your version of Demonic Thorned Armor is 68.42% efficient without its passives or active, and has a redundant passive since Armor in and of its own self reduces a percentage of physical damage taken. Whenever possible, balance an item by its efficiency, then add utility to avoid bad balance.

Cheers mate.

Myozthirirn1 votes

I like it, but you should make it more expensive and powerful otherwise is not worth a slot Same gold efficient, just scale it up to 2500-2800g

Edit: nevermind, I saw the 2000 near the armor value and i tough it was the total cost

skullzx710 votes

Yeah we seriously need some new tank items.

I was playing on Zac and I was against a full AD comp, So I built straight armor.

I probably had somewhere around ~450 armor and 4k hp. All the enemy Yasuo had to do is buy item 3036 and he literally killed me in 4 hits, (Q, AA, Q AA).

It isn't right that damage items outscale tank items SO hard.

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

I remember back when tanks could survive focus fire for more than 2 seconds, and when towers did more than shine a flashlight.

AlwaysByMySide4 votes

{quoted}

All the enemy Yasuo had to do is buy item 3036 and he literally killed me in 4 hits, (Q, AA, Q AA).

You're such a fucking liar, lol.

skullzx73 votes

No, thats literally all he did and i died, if i looked through replay.gg long enough i could probably find it but im not spending hours watching through replays

AlwaysByMySide4 votes

{quoted}

No, thats literally all he did and i died, if i looked through replay.gg long enough i could probably find it but im not spending hours watching through replays

Yasuo late game probably wouldn't do enough damage to kill a 4k health Zac in four hits if his auto attacks and Qs did true damage. IIRC, a late game Yasuo that goes full damage does about 960 damage to minions with auto attack crits, and his Q does less damage than that.

skullzx77 votes

Add in thunderlords, statik shiv, infinity edge, and duskblade. All it took was 2 autos and 2 q's and thanks to hyperscaling AD items thats all it took to kill me.

Next time ill post every last detail so someone defending his senpai doesnt try to call me a liar =D

lil snupe3 votes

ur on drugs

skullzx73 votes

how so?

people are so quick to insult when they have no real way to disprove something.

item 3036 plus flat AR Pen on items, plus bonus AR Pen from masteries made my armor almost completely useless while also buffing his damage by 15% because I dared to build tanky

I had no MR so statik shiv and thunderlords did quite a lot to me and item 3147 + the 15% damage buff finished me off.

Oh right I forgot the insane amount of AR Pen he gets from his ult, he ulted someone right next to me so i guess my armor was actually absolutely useless there (and for the sake of the argument, ill say no he didn't hit me in any way with the ult.)

Theres even more detail as to what happened.

Anidan4 votes

Because while they can't disprove it right off the bat, you haven't provided evidence that they can't use to disprove your original statement. Basically: Your statement sounds very unrealistic, so without actual solid proof that can't be refuted against your original statement, they're going to call you out on it, and rightly so. Notice how it's gone from 2 AAs + 2Qs to 2 AA + 2Qs + Duskblade passive + ult (for armor pen) + TLD... that isn't just 2AAs + 2Qs anymore, which itself makes your original statement false.

Exaggerations of the lack of tankiness on the part of tanks is getting pretty absurd is another issue that's going on on the boards, so that also isn't helping.

I'm just providing perspective to your first statement there, rather than refuting the argument myself, since I don't really care about the argument.

skullzx72 votes

Yeah, I didn't throw in every last little detail as to what happened because that would have just peen several paragraphs of exposition.

All yasuo HIMSELF did to me is run up to me and 2 Q's and 2 auto's, thats all HE had to do and I was dead

lil snupe1 votes

actually ur right i tested it it was a little more it was Q>R>Q>auto>Q and it brought me very close to death so i think u exaggerated a little, but only a little tbh... if he had some buffs like a janna shield or something those 5 buttons woulda killed me for sure

qetzel5 votes

Okay. so 4.5 K HP with no armour. Yasuo builds SS, IE, BT, DB and LDR? So, Yasuo has 40+75+75+65=255AD + base = 365AD His auto attacks will deal 3652.50.9 = 821 damage His Q will deal 4652.50.75 = 872 damage. A Shiv proc will be 300 damage. A thunderlord's proc will give him 256.5 So, two Qs and 2 AA will net Yasuo 3686 damage. Add in Duskblade proc, 90+(0.25*3686)= 1011 So if Zac has no armour (and Yasuo has a bad build and mastery choice) Yasuo can take Zac down with two Qs and 2 AAs. But of course, Zac has 450 armour. Assuming all of it is bonus armour because that works in your favour Zac still has over 200 armour. Even with Giant slayer runes and masteries, Yasuo cannot kill Zac with just 2Qs and 2AAs.

If somebody calls you out for exaggeration, don't fight it.

skullzx71 votes

Yasuo didn't have BT, he had Maw thanks to him laning vs an annie, and how is that in any way a bad build?

Also how is thunderlords bad on him, sure warlords is useful but the extra burst of damage from thunderlords is pretty crazy

And I had right around 4k, not 4.5k.

qetzel3 votes

Maw would have given him a lower output. 4000 is still too high given that Zac would have over 200 armour, Duskblade is... sub-optimal on Yasuo. Warlord's and Grasp of the undying (depending on lane) actually beat TLD in win rate by a significant margin. TLD is nowhere near the best for Yasuo.

skullzx71 votes

Well something I forgot to even mention because I forgot it gave him the massive armor pen is that he ulted someone who was next to me, i think it was our vayne if i remember right, and that combined with item 3036 is 95% bonus armor pen, plus the 20 he got from items, and the extra from masteries so I probably had somewhere in the rough ballpark of , say, 40 armor?

delonix4 votes

Armor Pen stacks multiplicatively, so Yasuo's ult and Lord Dominik's Regards would allow Yasuo to ignore 72.5% of your bonus armor, not 95%. Zac has about 80 base armor at level 18, so that's 370 bonus armor, minus 72.5% is ~102, add the 80 back for 182 armor before flat penetration.

Precision gives 8.4 armor penetration, so with 20 armor penetration from items, Yasuo still has to go through about 154 armor. 150 armor would give you 10,000 effective HP if you were at exactly 4000 hp.

It does seem unlikely that Yasuo could do 10,000 physical damage with two autoattacks and two Qs. Thunderlord's and Statikk Shiv do magic damage, which helps, but it probably can't come close to killing you.

skullzx71 votes

duskblade finished me off since it scales from % missing hp as well as the 15% bonus damage from LDR

also this wasn't a lv 18 thing, their yasuo was very fed and was full build, him being around lv 16 while I personally was only lv 14.

I don't see why everyone is so dead-set on trying to prove me wrong, this actually happened to me. And besides, if it was 2 Q's and 2 AA's or 3 Q's and 3 AA's, or even 4, that's still FAR too fast for a full armor tank to die to an AD assassin.

LittleBlast3 votes

Well if yasuo is very fed and your behind, NO FUCKING SHIT HE WILL KILL YOU

skullzx71 votes

I was still ~4k hp and ~450 armor

plus a full build tank vs a full build AD assassin or ADC right now will still die in 3 maybe 4 seconds, thats still a bit much. If I choose a tank I'm supposed to be tanky, I take the hits and deal out some cc, not "tried to engage but died before I could even ult"

TheOvermind6 votes

lol i saw a 540 armor malphite (yes with thornmail) die to a sated yi (with bork youmous and dead mans)in 4 seconds no joking. Armor is a joke right now.

Zane Zephyr1 votes

My favorite part about playing against master yi these days?

When I look at the death recap and see "Wuju style - 1044 true damage (33%)"

TheOvermind1 votes

Yeah well everyone is always like don't nerf yi nerf devourer, but he synergises better than anyone with devourer because on hit true damage applied twice every 2nd auto is very balanced, and everyone also always is like thornmail hard counters master yi, but when u look at death report you see 1/3 is physical damage dealt by him ( which interacts with thornmail) 1/3 is magic dmg on hit from devourer/ rageblade, and 1/3 is true damage on hit . How do you itemize vs that as a tank ?

Cindice3 votes

little do people know that thornmail is very strong item on Ashe it's the sleeper op build

junglerboy162 votes

Seems a tiny bit overturned, but I like the general direction of the item.

Few things to change:

  • That healing passive is kind of random in my opinion, and seems both too weak but also potentially gamebreakinig on a select few champs who can abuse it well, especially if it stacks with SV.

  • Passively reducing physical damage by a % is just the wrong way to go about the durability side of things. If you want % damage reduction, just have it give more raw armor.

  • The damage reflect should NOT have an MR scaling whatsoever. The whole point of the armor scaling was to make it the premier item for armor stacking tanks, and giving it an MR scaling would make it universally useful, which is the whole reason it was nerfed in the first place.

  • For the active, again cut the MR portion, and the slow too, since we don't need something crowding into Randuin's niche. The DoT and the Grievous wounds is a good idea though.

Nekusen2 votes

being cheap makes is a "complement" item, you are not supposed to buy it as your only defensive item, but is good if you have stacked hp, and is intended to fight autoattackers.

could it be better ? yes. needs a full rework? unlikely.

also, being cheap makes it a good buy when behind or when the enemy adc suddenly gets a powerspike or fed. by being upgradeable, thornmail itself would be given worse stats, and would be by far the most expensive of mid-tier items.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

I don't like the idea. but only partially. just make it have more components. give it the ad reduction passive. make it reflect more damage (or make it deal grievous wounds). and give it 200% health regen. so some can actually rush it first item in lane and not get fucked

Lord Galvatron2 votes

There are are a few reasons why Thornmail is a VERY situational item as of late:

  1. With the rise of really good MR items for AD Champs such as the revamped Scimitar and Maw, ADC's are not worried about the Thornmail damage, both give lifesteal and magic resist. This basically means unless you have 450+ armor or are Rammus, they are able to out heal your Thornmail passive.

  2. Another item that AD "attack speed" Champions use now because it is so strong is Guinsoo's Rageblade (Sometimes paired with Devourer). This is also a big problem for Thornmail because it reflects ONLY physical Damage. Guinsoo's passive only deals magic damage, which makes Thornmail's passive useless. (This is the reason why Kayle has been dominating top lane as of late).

  3. Armor Penetration is so plentiful as of late: Maw, Dusk, Ghost, Black C, Dominiks, and those items are in a really strong position and were only buffed as of late. ("Dem % bonus armor pen opee opee")

I believe that if any of these problems were to be addressed, it would make the power shift of this game more balanced instead of being primarily the "league of attack speed". Furthermore, changes to these problems stated above might make it unnecessary to nerf Champions like Shyv. and Master Yi which result in more champs being "Sejuani ed" (It literally took them months after her and Cinderhulk were nerfed to return her to a playable and healthy state).

I hope people put their input in and share their Ideas about this problem. It would be cool of Riot would address this situation and talk to us about it.

Anraton1 votes

sounds op on galio :-D

Spoofghoul2 votes

And i dont even think thats a bad thing ^^

Galio relies so much on ult + flash anyway

Some champions will synergize well with the item like the champions who can currently use thornmail well but with this new item its more alround efficient on more users leaving thornmails weaknesses in there like needing extra resist item for it to be efficient as well as needing some hp to back it up. And the buildpath is still very awkward lol

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Play against Kog or Vayne and tell me you don't wanna build Thornmail.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Kogmaw's bonus magic damage & vayne's bonus true damage will kill you long before thornmail would've made a difference. Ranged physical carries have way to much staling and sustain, to make thornmail even vaguely useful since it's nerf.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Have you done the math to back that up?

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Have you playtested it?

Tobias Brackner1 votes

That's why I suggested it in the first place.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Oh yes plenty of times, but before the nerf thornmail barely countered their sustain from bloodthirster; now it can't even do that. Sure we want to build it, but we won't because it's a wasted slot as is.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

That's why I'm telling you to do the math to back up your claims. If you want to say that Vayne and Kog would kill someone before Thornmail would make a difference don't you think you should know what you are talking about?

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

The numbers are irreverent when they keep changing; playtesting it will show the actuality. Likewise you haven't given any proof to the contrary, so why should I care?

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Numbers aren't irrelevant, that is an incredibly stupid thing to say. You get hit by an AA it's numbers that decide how much damage you take.

And you should care if you want to make claims like "so and so would kill you before X makes a difference." That is LITERALLY numbers and math. Otherwise you are just talking out your ass and making shit up.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Indeed, however your refusal to even attempt to playtest it for yourself, shows how inflexible and ignorant you are. Fact is the numbers are going to be different game to game because of runes, masteries, level difference, and items built; unless you actually try it one on one with someone willing to be more patient and less stubborn than you, you won't see the truth of any matter. Likewise you could run the numbers you're obsessed with to prove me wrong, but you haven't; which means you either know I'm right and don't want to look like a fool, or you're just too lazy to do it yourself. Either way I've long lost interest in this petty squabble; it's rather obvious riot wants to spite the community by making one class of champion crazy strong over everything else, so they can make more money in their 'pro' games.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

"your refusal to even attempt to playtest it for yourself, shows how inflexible and ignorant you are"

You: Have you playtested it? Me: That's why I suggested it in the first place. <Implying that the reason I'm asking for math is that I fucking playtested it.

" Fact is the numbers are going to be different game to game because of runes" That's why you you do math for most common builds and shit. You can literally do science and come up with reasonable image of how the fight would play out.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

For years, I've been here since the start of season 1, I've mained tanks for 3 seasons across top jungle and support roles. Unlike most people however I don't build them like most sheep; if you want answers you can find them out yourself instead of begging like a spoiled child.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

I'm telling you to defend your position, you know, like how people support their arguments? It's a common practice in the exchange of knowledge throughout human history. It's an important practice, especially since a person can main tanks for 3 seasons and still be an idiot.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

You know what else is common practice? Respect, without it no-one will pay you any attention worth having. Likewise someone can write pages of complaints but just waste time, as you're proving.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

I have no respect for people who make baseless claims and then tell other people to defend their point for them. You are lazy and have decided to instead try and defend a point that may be correct complain about how you somehow deserve respect.

Mister Modesty1 votes

I think they should just push thorns down to Chain Vest. item 1031 Chain Vest is literally NOTHING. It provides the same armor-gold ratio as Cloth Armor. And builds out of Cloth Armor.. I think we could lower the armor on Chain Vest, and introduce thorns onto it- say 5% damage redirected and 10% of armor.

Then we can improve Thornmail- I always thought AOE damage would be great like Sunfire Cape.

GreatWhiteNorth1 votes

Reminds me of the old spirit visage item 3065 , before the nerfs

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