If teammembers can't help undoing vessel on Illaoi's test of spirit

Spoofghoul·Dec 13, 2015·184 votes·7,141 views

Then why are Illaois teammembers allowed to kill the damn spirit . . .

Either we all get to unvessel our teammate Or Illaoi can't have her teammates help make a vessel

77 Comments

ModKnightsKemplarDec 13, 201548 votes

I think this is fair. The interaction between illaoi and her vessel needs to either be a team game, both ways, or a solo deal. It's super hard to coordinate the vessel killing those tentacles, even when everyone wants to.

Dharc KaisorDec 13, 20155 votes

{quoted}

I think this is fair. The interaction between illaoi and her vessel needs to either be a team game, both ways, or a solo deal. It's super hard to coordinate the vessel killing those tentacles, even when everyone wants to.

Yes. Everyone wants to kill the tentacles, because 5 gold is definitely worth more than stopping the tentacle generation and auto-attacking. What's more, is that many players who are vessels are already low, and those high AD ratios for tentacle hits don't help any.

Teammates should KNOW that a vessel has to kill those tentacles in order to be able to back safely, or even stay alive. Instead, I've seen people who barely know how Illaoi works, and have fed as a result...

People please, watch the damn Champion Spotlights, at the very least, if you're not gonna read up on a champion's abilities.

ModKnightsKemplarDec 13, 20152 votes

Yeah... but that's the reason that the OP and I want teammates to be able to help kill the vessel. There's a clarity issue here, and there's really no reason the game can't count "dead tentacles" instead of "killed tentacles."

SzunrayDec 13, 20151 votes

It kind of is a team game. When she pulls the spirit out of the vessel, the other team can intervene while she and hers are wailing on it.

Besides that I have no idea why her skillshot needs to be any more of a "team game" than any other skillshot. If you get hit by a skillshot you should be punished. That's how it is for Thresh, Blitz, Naut, Varus, Morgana, Zyra and Lux, if you don't dodge it you IMMEDIATELY suffer, no minigames.

The fact of the matter is it's already got a ton of counterplay, and any more would make it pretty much useless. For one it's a skillshot, so to start with, you can dodge it. Secondly, it doesn't immediately do anything to you. It allows her and her team to attack your vessel to deal some damage to you, assuming you don't run. So you could always try and fight her which will usually end with you not being cursed but taking some damage, or you can immediately run, saving yourself from taking almost any damage at all. From there, all you have to do is keep moving, or kill three tentacles and your done. As it is right now, Illaoi's E has the potential to do absolutely nothing even when you land it.

If you made it so that someone's teammates could kill the tentacles for credit, then it would be absolutely useless come late game. Or in a duo lane. "Hey guys I pulled Mundo's spirit lets kill i-- awww he ran... Well at least he's cur-- aww he's safe. What a good use of mana that was." And before you say that punishes teamwork, sometimes teamwork doesn't mean everyone stick together and shoot everything that moves. When Nocturne or Rengar ults, sure, you want your entire team to stick together, butt to butt. But when Brand or Varus Ults you pretty much want the exact opposite. Do their ults punish teamwork?

Obviously, I'm biased. If you check my match history, you'll see I play a lot of full AD Illaoi. But while you're on lolking or Op.gg, might as well look up her win-rates lol

ModKnightsKemplarDec 14, 20151 votes

You make an interesting point, but it doesn't change the feeling of frustration that it causes when your team won't let you... de-vessel? Un-vessel? Anyway, point is, I wouldn't argue it isn't balanced. It IS balanced, in my opinion, but the way the vessel mechanics work make it feel extremely frustrating.

I agree, the simple fact is that giving teammates the ability to help makes the ability much less useful, but that's why people like me have been saying that Illaoi isn't that well designed... That one ability she's mostly balanced around just doesn't work very well. It's difficult to keep both sides feeling satisfied about the way it works. That's the problem with the champion.

RedagaDec 14, 20151 votes

actually, your teams can hinder you on vessel, if they last hit a tentacle after you.

the vessel status itself is kinda OP, cause it even applies when people run away.

also, the fact that not even summoner 1 remove the effect, the only thing that removes Vessel is item 3140 active

TeslabladeDec 15, 20151 votes

Thematically, it needs to be a 1v1 affair.

ModKnightsKemplarDec 15, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=xXBlue FalconXx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iJyVy5p2,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2015-12-13T02:51:02.886+0000)

"When thinking about this from an in-game thematics perspective, it makes less sense that Poppy's ult would be blocked by Wind Wall, I agree. However, taking a purely thematic approach to things would pretty quickly lead us to making exceptions to things or accepting really odd gameplay, as per the Tormented Soil example above." - RiotRepertoir, quote about how gamplay > thematics

Doesn't really matter. I hear you, but something that's frustrating to play against doesn't get to continue existing just because it matches Illaoi's personality.

TeslabladeDec 15, 20151 votes

Which is true. They should remove the proxy damage from it as well as ally interference.

Shac NorrisDec 13, 201514 votes

You're so right, i'm so tired of that one ally who and destroy them, even after you told them not to..

Lumina FlowlightDec 13, 20151 votes

fuck yes had my jg camping mid to destroy them for me after pinging for them to fuck off countless times

Critmaster GarenDec 13, 201512 votes

look at it like this. if youre hit by a skillshot by most other champions you immediately suffer the effects.

be it a morgana snare with the damage, getting chunked for 60% of your health by nidalee, getting hooked into the middle of the enemy team by blitz, or locked down by thresh.

what do you get from being hit by illaois test of spirit? a bit of damage, and a mediocre nuissance for 10 seconds. even if you cant cleanse the buff, its mostly not more than a bit irritating. ESPECIALLY when your teammates immediately clear the tentacles. meaning you wont even have to dodge them and the debuff already does nothing even when it persists.

however if teammates killing tentacles would cleanse the effects aswell, the secondary effect would practically be nonexistent. it would be far too easy to deal with.

illaois team can group up and kill the spirit. your team can protect the spirit or remove the tentacles before they do anything. or you can dodge the skillshot in the first place. its already fair.

if you really cant deal with the thing, just get a goddamn qss or ask your support to grab a crucible to get the thing off you. you have so many options. the ability is neither unfair, nor does it need nerfs, just because its anoying to get hit.

and thats just it. its mostly anoying while other skillshots can outright kill you.

Spizzle9000Dec 13, 20153 votes

Someone give this man a cookie!

item 2052

AbodyHUN666Dec 13, 20152 votes

I fully agree with you, Illaoi's E is one of the lower effect skillshots in the game. Sure, if you get hit while you fight her, and you get the double damage it sucks, but she really isn't that mobile to get on you 24/7. Though I think she might need some AD scaling nerfs possibly in favour of some mana buffs.

OwntrolfDec 13, 201510 votes

5g > your life Lol

NegusInParisDec 13, 20156 votes

That's why I focus on the 50 gold from the nexus instead

PenguinOverlord8Dec 13, 20158 votes

Well I do sort of agree with this it doesn't really work with her lore as well. Someone isn't gonna help you in her test.

J EpsteinDec 13, 201520 votes

"When thinking about this from an in-game thematics perspective, it makes less sense that Poppy's ult would be blocked by Wind Wall, I agree. However, taking a purely thematic approach to things would pretty quickly lead us to making exceptions to things or accepting really odd gameplay, as per the Tormented Soil example above." - RiotRepertoir, quote about how gamplay > thematics

Secondly, "the Truth Bearer strips the subject’s spirit from their body then** forces them to stand against her to prove their worth**." the spirit just stands their as she pummels it. For thematic's sake, the spirit should fight back.

/case

Lumen SageDec 13, 201517 votes

It is not up to the spirit to fight back, it is for the body. If they run after she takes their spirit, they will be judged, if they are not strong enough to protect their spirit, same outcome. But attacking her, standing against her, makes you able to reclaim your spirit faster, that is what it means to prove your worth.

Blood MefistDec 13, 20154 votes

But when she pulls your spirit into the rest of her team, you can hardly fight for your spirit without giving up your life.

Pale PirateDec 13, 20158 votes

No, because then the vessel mechanic would become useless against more than 1 people. The carrier is supposed to pass the test, not run away screaming while his support clicks the tentacles.

CISTERNDec 13, 20157 votes

For real, i had a game that my teammates was killing all Ιllaoi's tentacles and i remained a vessel for one minute (2 times), then i didnt went at teamfight ASAP because i had to kill tentacles, then i flamed my team hard. THat was the first flame after years for game-play reasons

1 Stop killing the tentacles 2 SAID STOP, Dont kill the tentacles when we are not at teamfight 3 ARE U FUCEN MENTALLY ILL

KarbuncleDec 13, 20154 votes

This happened to me,it helps if you explain to your teammates what you're trying to do instead of giving them commands to no kill an enemy that grants go and if you expects randoms to know how champions work you're in for a bad time.

CISTERNDec 13, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inquisitor Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iJyVy5p2,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2015-12-13T12:49:39.293+0000)

This happened to me,it helps if you explain to your teammates what you're trying to do instead of giving them commands to no kill an enemy that grants go and if you expects randoms to know how champions work you're in for a bad time.

People sometimes are too lazy! like when u want to lifesteal but they kill all minions, but that with ilaoi is a different thing, for example if they dont let me lifesteal i will go back to fountain, but that with illaoi makes me mad for real because is not that they dont help me correctly, is that they drag me down, when my allies playing bad i dont care much but dont get involved with my personal jobs and drag me down and ignore me at the same time, i will flame

PartholonianDec 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

For real, i had a game that my teammates was killing all Ιllaoi's tentacles and i remained a vessel for one minute (2 times), then i didnt went at teamfight ASAP because i had to kill tentacles, then i flamed my team hard. THat was the first flame after years for game-play reasons

1 Stop killing the tentacles 2 SAID STOP, Dont kill the tentacles when we are not at teamfight 3 ARE U FUCEN MENTALLY ILL

Not condoning this behavior, but it's clear (at least in hindsight) that the design of Vessel is a cause of it. Why is an ability that is anti-teamwork and PROMOTES TOXICITY in the game in its current state? Riot, allow people to work together, because this is the kind of thing that results when you make them work against each other.

AbodyHUN666Dec 13, 20151 votes

The way you worded it brings nothing but flame. You should have either told them the reason why they should let you kill the teentacles or be glad that they got rid of them.

Solidair3Dec 13, 20156 votes

At the very least, it would be nice that so long as a Vessel hits a tentacle once, they count as killing it for the purpose of devesseling.

It's irritating when your teammates take that second hit.

jama655Dec 13, 20155 votes

NAAHHH a test can be given by multiple teachers but only one student may take the test Illaoi

Shield VillainDec 13, 20154 votes

They can..it's called initiating a team fight while the enemy team uses their shit on the vessel.

SettDownShutUpDec 13, 20153 votes

Agreed. Teammate tentacle kills NEED to count towards all nearby vessel.

kaltenashesDec 13, 20153 votes

dude i already killed my teammates being cursed.... he was recalling and didnt move XD since that, whenever i get cursed i move away from everyone and everything to kill these 3 tentacles, then i return

Avios1Dec 13, 20153 votes

If you get hit by the skillshot, you deserve to be punished. If you run away from the spirit, you deserve to be punished. That is her poke, fight if she pulls you, and she will be forced to retreat most of the time.

IcyPepperDec 13, 20152 votes

Interesting...

I think that the spirit should be affected by ally abilities (Tahm's devour, Bard's ult, etc) and if Illaoi takes sufficient amount of damage, the spirit is returned and the curse is removed. This invites Illaoi and her opponent to outduel each other to determine their fate.

BârdDec 13, 20151 votes

There is something similar to that in game. Each time Illaoi takes damage from the target, the remaining time she has to kill the spirit is reduced by 1 second.

ChaosThiefDec 13, 20151 votes

The target being tested is the only one being affected. I think what he's suggesting is allowing the allies of this person being tested to help lift the burden.

IS3E531E3F964391Dec 13, 20152 votes

it's what I hate about the ability, kinda screwed if you do screwed if you don't ability.

screwed if you do destroy the tentacles because the vessel doesn't kill it

or screwed if you don't destroy the tentacle because illaoi can use the tentacles against your entire team

MasqureManDec 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Then why are Illaois teammembers allowed to kill the damn spirit . . .

Either we all get to unvessel our teammate Or Illaoi can't have her teammates help make a vessel

The vessel needs to kill 3 of any tentacles, not just the ones that spawn from the curse. It is not comparable to say that teammates shouldn't be able to attack the spirit.

warpenguin555Dec 13, 20152 votes

maybe assists should count for killing them, Illaoi still has to land her e for the spirit to appear, you should have to atleast hit the tentacle once

DragonapocalypseDec 14, 20152 votes

illaoi is one of the more powerful champions at the moment, but she does have her weaknesses, as long as you know how to play around them, yes she is annoying as hell to play against

Stars ShaperDec 13, 20151 votes

I don't understand how she has a 47% win rate. Illaoi players must suck at teamplay because in lane she walks over any non ranged anti tank character.

Critmaster GarenDec 13, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iJyVy5p2,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2015-12-13T14:35:47.802+0000)

I don't understand how she has a 47% win rate. Illaoi players must suck at teamplay because in lane she walks over any non ranged anti tank character.

or here is another theory. you suck at laning against her. maybe you dont know how to deal with her, and have yet to figure it out. the statistics are clear. if youre losing against her much more than youre winning, chances are the problem is you, and not the champ.

Stars ShaperDec 13, 20152 votes

I've played against her twice and realized that the characters I liked to play Top weren't the best choice to begin with. Anyway I see her stomping toplane even when I play mid (my main lane).

Yet, most of these games are lost from Illaoi team, even with her being heavily fed. Now, she doesn't seem like one that loses in usefulness in teamfights and that's why I'm wondering if it's really a lack of team play from the players or if there is a secret gimmick that doesn't let Illaoi shine.

I sounded whiny in the comment, I didn't mean to.

Critmaster GarenDec 13, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iJyVy5p2,comment-id=001700000000,timestamp=2015-12-13T14:42:22.462+0000)

I've played against her twice and realized that the characters I liked to play Top weren't the best choice to begin with. Anyway I see her stomping toplane even when I play mid (my main lane).

Yet, most of these games are lost from Illaoi team, even with her being heavily fed. Now, she doesn't seem like one that loses in usefulness in teamfights and that's why I'm wondering if it's really a lack of team play from the players or if there is a secret gimmick that doesn't let Illaoi shine.

I sounded whiny in the comment, I didn't mean to.

maybe i sounded a bit harsh aswell, but from my experience trying her, she runs out of mana really fast which is definitely a weakspot. shes also like the other juggernauts in that she only gets really effective when she can get right into the middle of the enemy team. ideally in an enclosed space like the river or jungle, where she can summon a crapload of tentacles with her ult that would be hard to dodge due to the confinement. and start spamming w for the damage and heal.

the most effective way to beat her is to kite her back so youre not fighting in the range of the tentacles.

Stars ShaperDec 13, 20151 votes

So she suffers from "free space" teamfights as I read. that might be a huge cause of her low winrate since I also have champions who suffer from that.

Critmaster GarenDec 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iJyVy5p2,comment-id=00170000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-13T14:51:38.694+0000)

So she suffers from "free space" teamfights as I read. that might be a huge cause of her low winrate since I also have champions who suffer from that.

she summons a tentacle for every enemy champion in range when she ults plus those she manged to set up before. means the tighter the space, the more tentacles are scattered around, all leashing at the same target she hits with w, potentially hitting other targets aswell.

if there is not much space to move like in jungle corridors, it becomes really hard to dodge the wildly swinging tentacles from every direction.

on the other hand on open space, you can just move backwards. the tentacles are static and dont move with her when she follows. shes a bit similar to heimerdinger where she sets up an area to fight you. outside this area without additional tentacles around shes much less of a threat.

WyrmbladeDec 13, 20151 votes

If Illaoi wants people to move then why does her E punish you for leaving the circle?

Spizzle9000Dec 13, 20151 votes

She also wants people to fight and struggle, not just run away like a coward. She wants people to move and take what they want and what they need to live, not just run away from any real challenges.

Lowkey ThiccDec 13, 20151 votes

Yeah, I completely agree... it's such a frustrating mechanic. I think only letting the vessel attack their tentacles or letting the team help the vessel would be great fixes to the problem.

I hope Riot sees this post!

FistOfSharkieshaDec 13, 20151 votes

I think her massive ranged abilities are part of what will prevent her from being balanced. Low mana costs with low enough cooldowns let her kill you without AAing you. She's meant to be a juggernaut but she has an 800 range poke and heal and a 900 range ability that essentially does a minute of DoT.

She needs higher cooldowns and mana costs or lower range. I support your proposal but I don't think it's the biggest issue.

HeedprimeDec 15, 20151 votes

Let's break it down:

Illaoi uses E successfully on an enemy champion.
Illaoi and her teammates defeat the spirit of said champion.
Champion consistently generates tentacles near him/herself that focus attacks on him.
Champion has to last hit three tentacles to break the curse.

The first part of this ability is Illaoi's skill at using a skillshot vs. a champion or champions skill level(s) dodging her skill shot.

^ Champion vs. champion

The second part of this ability takes Illaoi and any nearby allies may cooperate to destroy the spirit and the enemy champions may cooperate to prevent that from happening.

^ Team vs. team

The third part of this ability is where if the spirit is broken then the effected champion must undergo a trial where they generate and are attacked by nearby tentacles.

^ Effected enemy champion vs. him/herself

The final part of this ability is the part where the tentacles are destroyed. The champion's team may help or even hinder their efforts in this by not understanding how Illaoi's abilities work and/or mistakenly last hitting the tentacle instead.

^ Effected enemy champion vs. his own team

Illaoi's E is a signature ability that is only replicated somewhat vaguely by abilities such as Zilean bombs and Tristana stuff. This is because these abilities will already do damage but they have the potential to hurt the enemy team more if their team is bad at dealing with it.

Example: Zilean can throw a bomb on an enemy to almost guarantee damage. However, the effected enemy may bring the bomb close to another enemy to net Zilean even MORE damage.

Example: Tristana can use her Explosive Charge and have the same thing happen as above where the effected enemy can walk too close to one of his allies (or vice versa) and net her more damage.

With Illaoi's E it is the same me vs. my own team concept. It is unique in that it is new and not completely understood by the community yet, and just like sometimes people wander too close to an enemy Zilean bomb, sometimes people that understand the ability still last-hit a tentacle without thinking about it.

The ability is balanced in its primary mechanics in that it starts with a 'self skill vs. enemy skill' test (which is fair), moves immediately to a team vs. team mind-game to kill or preserve the champion spirit, and may end with a 'self vs. self and own team' trial where the champion struggles to break the curse.

With Illaoi having no other form of CC and no other real flavor to her kit besides WHAP you got hit with a tentacle, I think her E is perfect. It grants her that sweet little bit of CC and adds in a hard punishing skill shot grab that is no more oppressive than a blitz or thresh grab.