Stop trying to balance the game around what's most fun to watch in E-sport.

Cryptocurrency·Feb 27, 2017·267 votes·7,310 views

Yes I understand that it's more fun to watch flashy plays and early turrets fall in E-sport rather than 60min+ games but for 95% of the player base they just want to have fun in THEIR games.

Your balancing for most fun in E-sport only encourages this damage and mobility creep over the past few years. Full tanks dying in 3s? LMAO ADC in 1s? Who needs protective supports anymore Support trying to ward something? Gets killed by exhausted assasin

I would like to see the game go back to a more strategic gameplay than flashy plays and one shots everywhere.

165 Comments

ZURELLFeb 27, 201797 votes

"Stop trying to balance the game around what's most fun to watch in E-sport."

e-sports is boring as fuck. they play the same four champs each game.

out of the 132.

fuffychanFeb 27, 20178 votes

I dont understand why they always nerf Shaco. He would be so entertaining to watch.

Braum MechanicsFeb 27, 201719 votes

{quoted}

I dont understand why they always nerf Shaco. He would be so entertaining to watch.

Because in his current state he's cancer in soloQ but horrible in competitive organised play.

They need to either buff him in which case he is going to be even bigger of a problem or rework him in which case it's a gamble. He's got some dedicated mains that may not like him.

Glory ln DeathFeb 27, 201725 votes

Correction: He's got some dedicated mains who will hate any change Riot makes to Shaco, no matter what it is - it could actually be a buff or a completely justified nerf, and they would still rage and flame on the Boards.

It happens every time Shaco even gets looked at...

Hauling AsheFeb 27, 20174 votes

Is that loon Shaclone still playing after his tantrum?

Sergeant HawkFeb 27, 20178 votes

ThatS with any champ

Glory ln DeathFeb 27, 20178 votes

That's true, but it seems like Shaco mains are especially bad about it -

Shaco gets a small nerf when he has a 56%+ win rate in the jungle? Riot's gutting him to unviability.

Shaco gets a small buff to his AP build? Riot is deleting his AD/crit playstyle.

Etc...

ModAcademy KaynFeb 27, 20172 votes

I remember the Naut E changes that were made to help him in the Jungle, and people complained, because it meant they would have to level E, instead of their shield instead. (Despite these changes making it so Naut could jungle decently in the first place)

RavenMagusFeb 27, 20172 votes

Those changes made him really overpowered until he got the E damage nerfs too.

YumaS2AstralFeb 27, 20171 votes

It is also like that with Riven mains and Lee Sin mains, to the point that Riot is even afraid of doing any changes to them

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 28, 20172 votes

Lee Sin is league's poster child. He'll never be properly balanced.

Riven mains, despite being typically toxic, take balance changes as they come go. Riven has been buffed and nerfed a lot over the years. For the most part she's currently quite balanced.

SkorchFeb 28, 20172 votes

WAIT 4? God i REALLY need to watch it now. How the hell do they get away with only 4 champions, I thought the minimum was 10?

Handy Sandy Feb 27, 201744 votes

Full tanks dying in 3s?

Well.. Nautilus tanked like 30 tower shots while teamfighting xD

CppLFeb 27, 201734 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chroma Spell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sFTm53IP,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-02-27T12:45:08.773+0000)

Well.. tanked like 30 tower shots while teamfighting xD

its cause turets are worthless.adc can melt nautilus late game.

chipndip1Feb 27, 20175 votes

Aren't they sort of supposed to though?

CryptocurrencyFeb 27, 20177 votes

Not MELT, they should bring the constand dps needed to take down a tank. That's why you picked ADC's in previous seasons.

CryptocurrencyFeb 27, 201750 votes

Tanks aren't as strong in Solo Q as they are in competitive. How often do you see 17 level Nautilus with almost full build running around at 30th minute of the game with support healing and shielding him in Solo Q?

Hauntzer was a Super Tank there because:

He had a massive exp and gold lead (17 level + 4 items completed and 5th incoming all at 30th minute of the game where tanks are at the peak of their power even with less items completed)
Nami had lots of shields and heals for him so he could survive even more and his masteries and SV empowered healing/shielding.
Enemy team was starving, zero anti tank itemization, no overall damage.
He had his fed team backing him up so he didn't take much damage from their carries.
He played one of the top 3 tanks (only because he played one of the strongest tanks doesn't mean that tanks are in a good state and need nerfs).

Just watch Maokai for a second please, once in focus he died in less than 3s, so we could by your logic go by the other extreme with: "wow tanks suck dick, they get blown as fast as squishies".

In Solo Q tanks hardly ever have such a lead because of various things like no communication, almost nonexistant teamplay, various strategies that work in Solo Q but not in the LCS etc.

My argument is in an even teamfight tanks die too fast, I mean fucking everything dies to fast in this game right now (champions no matter what role and turrets).

AmazoXFeb 27, 201710 votes

{quoted}

Tanks aren't as strong in Solo Q as they are in competitive. How often do you see 17 level Nautilus with almost full build running around at 30th minute of the game with support healing and shielding him in Solo Q?

Hauntzer was a Super Tank there because:

He had a massive exp and gold lead (17 level + 4 items completed and 5th incoming all at 30th minute of the game where tanks are at the peak of their power even with less items completed)

Nami had lots of shields and heals for him so he could survive even more and his masteries and SV empowered healing/shielding.

Enemy team was starving, zero anti tank itemization, no overall damage.

He had his fed team backing him up so he didn't take much damage from their carries.

He played one of the top 3 tanks (only because he played one of the strongest tanks doesn't mean that tanks are in a good state and need nerfs).

Just watch Maokai for a second please, once in focus he died in less than 3s, so we could by your logic go by the other extreme with: "wow tanks suck dick, they get blown as fast as squishies".

In Solo Q tanks hardly ever have such a lead because of various things like no communication, almost nonexistant teamplay, various strategies that work in Solo Q but not in the LCS etc.

My argument is in an even teamfight tanks die too fast, I mean fucking everything dies to fast in this game right now (champions no matter what role and turrets).

Lmao Copy-pasted.

CryptocurrencyFeb 27, 201712 votes

Does it make it less true?

KnoyleFeb 27, 201712 votes

http://imgur.com/f7FdEdG

Sire HippingtonFeb 27, 201713 votes

And the opposing mao just got popped the moment they switched focus on him... Also, naut wasn't exactly teamfighting, the opposing team hardly attacked him at all, and even if they would, they had a horrible setup/itemisation to deal with a (very)fed tank.

fuffychanFeb 27, 201732 votes

Riots favorite trio Zed LeeSin Yasuo

TyrekGoldenspearFeb 27, 20179 votes

Zed: https://na.op.gg/champion/zed/statistics/mid 48% winrate. 15% pickrate.

Lee Sin: https://na.op.gg/champion/leesin/statistics/jungle 49% winrate. 30% pickrate.

Yasuo: https://na.op.gg/champion/yasuo/statistics/mid 50% winrate Mid, 51% winrate Top. 7.25% pickrate Mid, 5.71% pickrate Top.

Riot's favorites huh? Out of all of them only Yasuo's stats look somewhat iffy, but the other two have sub 50% winrates in Plat+ Games.

Zed has 31 champions with a better Mid winrate than him. Lee Sin has 25 jungle and Yas has 23 mid and 11 top.

hhaavviikkFeb 27, 201725 votes

{quoted}

Zed: https://na.op.gg/champion/zed/statistics/mid 48% winrate. 15% pickrate.

Lee Sin: https://na.op.gg/champion/leesin/statistics/jungle 49% winrate. 30% pickrate.

Yasuo: https://na.op.gg/champion/yasuo/statistics/mid 50% winrate Mid, 51% winrate Top. 7.25% pickrate Mid, 5.71% pickrate Top.

Riot's favorites huh? Out of all of them only Yasuo's stats look somewhat iffy, but the other two have sub 50% winrates in Plat+ Games.

Zed has 31 champions with a better Mid winrate than him. Lee Sin has 25 jungle and Yas has 23 mid and 11 top.

called riot favorite because they seem to be almost nerf immune, lee sin even got buffed when he dropped out of competitive play meanwhile others champs can keep being forgotten.

SpoofghoulFeb 27, 201732 votes

riot even went so far as to admit that lee is their favorite bro monk

Faceroll TacticsFeb 27, 201712 votes

They also said they didn't want to nerf lee too much because he "adds to competitive play."

I guess kalista and azir didn't somehow, despite them being very interesting to see in competitive

Velzard of KozFeb 27, 20176 votes

Yes that's what Spoofghoul meant. One of Rioters said they want to keep Lee Sin like this because of how he contributes to competetive play - haven't seen any other case of open admiting of playing favourites.

chipndip1Feb 27, 20175 votes

How many times do they have to nerf Zed before people remember he's been nerfed before?

SH AzykanFeb 27, 20176 votes

I think its because when they nerf zed they do it correctly, with very small changes for the most part. where other champs they completely overshoot with a nerf which actually ruins some of their old good matchups and makes bad matchups impossible. Zed has stayed good vs the same champs and his bad matchups are still the same as well.

Skins ProjectFeb 27, 20171 votes

I FOUND YOU :D I mean

Hi... Bye...

TyrekGoldenspearFeb 27, 20175 votes

Hai. [slayer-jinx-wink]

Papa AndreiFeb 27, 20174 votes

When you get downvoted for saying"hai" Feelsbadman

FilDaFunkFeb 27, 201717 votes

I don't find it fun to watch a 5-man gank annihilating a duo bot, taking tower in 10 sec then dragon. Not very exciting. I much prefer the strategy, and I think that's why the gamecasters are required; do we need them to point out which abilities were used?

TheOneTrueBrandFeb 27, 201716 votes

I think half the reason this game has gotten so hilariously unbalanced now is because Rito has started heavily focusing 90% of the balance changes around LCS

I mean right now theres champs who were OP in competitive so they got heavily nerfed to the point where theyre unplayable to lower ELO players, and if you try to pick them at all you're considered a troll

theres champs that are so OP that if you dont either pick or ban them you're instantly considered to be a troll, some intentionally being kept strong simply because they look flashy in pro play (looking at you, Lee Sin.)

Assassins can get upwards of 60% MR with a spellshield now without sacrificing damage because guess what, MR is tacked onto so many AD items now it's getting silly, and mages still basically only have 1 magic pen item worth getting and thats Void Staff. (if ur gonna try to say that Liandry's is a good magic pen item ima smack u and the boots are so core for so many mages its not fair to count it) Honestly the gap between Mpen and lethality is nuts right now, mages get next to no magic pen and only have 1 ap/armor item that is a shell of its former self while AD champs are swimming in AD/MR items that have good stats and amazing passives/actives, its honestly unfair for AP champs nowadays.

Masteries are still massively overtuned, especially keystones. A lot of people used to go hybrid mastery builds with the old masteries, without getting the final mastery in any tree. Masteries used to be more diverse with a hell of a lot more options, now most champions are forced to go to a certain tree and only really have an option between like 2 keystones, and if you try to go hybrid now with no keystone, youre considered a troll.

Damage creep is through the roof now with nothing being done about it still (I doubt those small mastery nerfs will do anything noticable at all.

Almost all the changes in the past couple years were aimed at making LCS games shorter and more action-packed, but it really just made a stale viewing experience where, past the 20 minute mark, both teams play extremely carefully because one single lost fight (god forbid if its an ace) can cost a full lane of turrets and usually an inhib too.

I think a lot of things need changed back tk how they used to be, and that champion BASE damages need to be GLOBALLY reduced by about 20% to address the insane damage creep.

LuggFeb 27, 201714 votes

Every champion in the game can be fun to watch in pro play if the game is balanced. It's actually more fun to watch something like a Bard outplay a LB, Lee, or Zed.

Sire HippingtonFeb 27, 201710 votes

what's most fun to watch in E-sport.

That's highly subjective. Most people i know aswell as my self did enjoy watching E-sports in previous seasons more than now and prefer a more strategic game with less damage creep not only to play, but also to watch.

So yea, i never understood the 'stop balanceing around e-$ports ' arguments, cause what riot did in the last few years was bad for e-sports aswell, atleast for me and my buddies.

CryptocurrencyFeb 27, 20173 votes

Honestly, I completely agree. But I think a lot of people like watching flashy plays (not only in E-Sport but for example Lee Sin Montages on youtube) while still preferring a strategic gameplay when playing their own games.

HeeroTXFeb 27, 20177 votes

"Hardcore" baseball fans like tracking stats and watching great technical/intellectual play. "Casual" fans like to watch home runs. The real problem with focusing on "flashy" plays is that it encourages people to only watch highlights and eventually transition off watching the game itself. Soccer is a game of great strategy and positioning, but most people who don't understand the game think it is "boring to watch" because they don't understand what's going on during setup phases and only want to watch amazing goal shots. Riot should really think about what it's doing to their game (both in terms of non-pro players AND future viewers) with how they're "dumbing down" the viewing experience focusing on highlight plays.

XonraFeb 28, 20172 votes

Sadly they know exactly what they are doing, because they are clearly trying to make it more casual friendly (I mean really with everything).

They tried to make Ranked more casual friendly with Dynamic queue and effed Ranked in the A in all of 2016. The are making the Pro scene more like solo queue every year so it feels familiar to the casual viewer watching. They are doing the "flashy" stuff because that is what THEY like.

They are flat out dumbing down the game like Blizzard did with WoW, to grab the casual audience at the expensive of any other viewer.

AlmightyFeb 27, 20179 votes

With this damage creep, League starts to feel like Dark Souls.

Next thing you know, you lose all your gold upon death. Because "strategic play"

Almighty.

Faceroll TacticsFeb 27, 20173 votes

Why stop there?

Dying removes your humanity, giving you more luck but stopping you from communicating with your teammates.

Given how often people communicate in ways that aren't flaming, itd probably be a catch-up mechanic for solo que

Big Black CrocFeb 27, 20172 votes

Why every time you comment u type almighty in bold at the bottom? I mean people know ur name by looking at your profile.

The WhamboozlerFeb 27, 20174 votes

Except that Dark Souls is GOOD.

Christ, I WISH league was even a quarter as good and fun as Dark Souls!

Hinagiku33Feb 28, 201710 votes

Dark Souls is also fair.

League just feels more and more unfair each season. We've gone from: "Okay, I was out of position so dying to that gank was totally my fault" or "Tower diving a guy at full health was not a smart decision" to: "Well there was literally nothing I could have done there to stop that BS" or "Why can everyone and their grandma tower dive me safely when I'm at full health and live?" or "Why does their pick have 2x the tools my kit does?"

I miss feeling like each death or loss was because I could be a better player. Now I just feel like I'm handicapping my team by picking a champ I like to play instead of one of the God-tier overlords.

3TWarriorFeb 28, 20172 votes

I used to love miss fortune

by everyone's complaining this season, i'm sure i'd hate the experience because one ultimate could end the fight

SEKAIFeb 27, 20176 votes

Take up upvote/visibility and go, son. Preach.

BârdFeb 27, 20176 votes

Riot has three options with balance.

Balance for the majority, who are mid-silver and (sorry) just don't understand the nuances of the game. Doing this dumbs down the game insanely and makes League boring as hell at high levels of play. Anything that can't be beaten simply by throwing damage in its general direction gets nerfed into the ground for being "cancer". Riot can't balance a champion around counterplay that is beyond the mechanics and adaptability of silvers, and this is CLEARLY a flawed way to design a game. In terms of complexity, it would be along the lines of checkers. More accessable? Yes. Is it absolutely devoid of skill? No, there is certainly depth. It's just a hell of a lot less interesting than Chess.

Extreme example of a balance change.

Patch 8.15

Yasuo has been completely overpowered for quite some time now, with literally no counterplay. As such, we have decided to take out some of the more unnecessary power. We feel that these changes will make him less cancer to play against, but leave enough power that the truly GREAT Yasuos can continue to limp along after the removal of IE for melee champions.

Passive: No longer grants double crit chance. Q: No longer applies lifesteal. W: No longer blocks projectiles, but now causes any projectile that passes through it to deal less damage. E: Per target CD removed, but normal CD increased to 6 seconds.

Balance for the top, who all understand the game pretty damn well, but make up only a small portion of the playerbase. This leads to the game being made increasingly complex with every patch. Champions that are currently "Pub Stompers" (Heim, Yi, Trynd, Illaoi, Teemo, etc) would be buffed into viability in high level play. The problem with this is that the counterplay offerd by these changes would be out of reach for many, making the game only for the most hardcore players. New players would become more rare, and any games below plat are going to be chaos: a mess of players picking champions they aren't good enough to play to the fullest extent and feeding other champions who they aren't skilled enough to counter. It would be like giving a group of random people top tier Magic decks for a competition: some of them would understand what to do with the deck and would use it effectively, understanding and enjoying it. Others would have no fucking clue what they were doing, having a miserable time as they failed to understand the strategy, while a select few haven't even played the game before, and are struggling to comprehend the concept of land cards.

Again, not a great way to design (I'd argue the game is better off complex than dumbed down, but that's just me).

Extreme example of a balance change.

Patch 9.2

Yi hasn't been in a great spot for a long time now, so we have decided to buff him, while adding some counterplay.

P: Double strike now deals full damage, but being stunned causes Yi to lose all stacks. Q: CD massively reduced, but Yi is now briefly targetable as he hits each unit.

Balance for everybody.

Ha. We all know that's not really possible. If there are no simple characters, low level play suffers. If the simple characters are playable in high level play, they are broken in low level play. If there are no complex characters, the high level players get bored as hell. The complex characters CAN'T be designed with low level play in mind primarily, because they are designed primarily to allow high level players to express their skills. Depending on the champion, it can either be OP in low level play and balanced in high level play (Vayne) or weak in low level play but broken as shit in high level play (Ivern a couple patches ago). Nuanced strategies can't be balanced around, because that will fly right over the heads of lower level players who run mostly off of intuition and habit instead of any particular strategy.

DEmperor95Feb 27, 20174 votes

I agree, and I have another example. Azir shouldn't "have 42% winrate in soloqueue and be 5W 16L in competitive" level of weak, just because it's too boring to see him every game in competitive according to Riot.

TheHappyReaperzFeb 27, 20177 votes

Azir was also cancer in soloque, when he was strong. If the player was good at him, there was literally nothing you could do.

BlåbæretFeb 28, 20174 votes

The thing is, Riot doesn't get it. They don't get the fact that when your game feels like pure trash to play for 99,99% of your player base, it'll eventually die. The pro-scene is not what is keeping this game alive, and if you keep acting like it is, you'll suffer the consequences.

But you know what? I don't mind this game being killed off by its own creator. I've seen it before in WoW which Ghostcrawler, who ironically was hired by Riot, killed off my favorite game. I've played WoW for 8+ years, Ghostcrawler TRULY ravaged that game. Killed off the PvP-scene entirely. More than likely with intent. He then gets fired (at least that's what I think) and is hired by Riot as a lead designer. You can see the result of that choice by looking at the current state of the game: CoC, lethality, assassins, 2/3 of the jungler rooster is not viable at all, damage creep, weak towers, snowballing and the list goes on. The game is a mess (most likely unfixable unless they revert back to a previous season).

But ya know what? Nintendo Switch is coming out. Got it pre-ordered along with Zelda. Virtual Console is coming out, I can finally play Super Smash Melee on-the-go. Lots of new exciting games are launching this year, so I really don't mind Riot being dead set on killing their own game - I got other things I can do.