there is one garen buff that could make him seriously competitive

Critmaster Garen·Jan 2, 2017·4 votes·1,404 views

let him be able to ult jungle monsters including dragon and baron (max 1000 damage).

if hes not as powerful of a juggernaut in teamfights as darius, not as good of a splitpusher as yorick or nasus, or as much of a lane bully as illaoi, he could be the juggernaut who helps his team by contributing to objective control.

similar to abilities like consume, or feast, he could be able to hit jungle monsters with his ult for up to 1000 damage, and coordinate the burst with his jungler to secure buffs, or even attempt to contest objectives vs. the enemies smite on his own.

this buff would add power to his kit in a way that he gets team utility when ahead or behind.

it adds more strategic decision making to his ult. do you want to save it for the next big fight, or do you want to help secure that dragon or baron? since it is a rather valuable cooldown for him.

this is actually a pretty old idea ive had for him, and thinking about it, it is something that would probably even helped him more to find a strategic nieche as a juggernaut, than the armor shred buff.

28 Comments

PrimaquariusJan 2, 20172 votes

#DEMAGLIO

Quil EvrythingJan 2, 20172 votes

he doesnt need more buffs.

Critmaster GarenJan 2, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quil Evrything,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sExON6lT,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-02T21:25:53.878+0000)

he doesnt need more buffs.

debatable. the armor shred buff helped him to increase his overall power, but it didnt add much to give a team a specific reason to pick him over other similar options.

plus, his winrate in diamond is still crappy even after the buff, and he still doesnt exist in masters.

a buff to his objective control would increase his value for higher level play specifically, where people actually give a damn about objectives, and the possibility to use his ult essentially as a second smite on a team has much more impact than for lower divisions.

SwiftKitten88Jan 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sExON6lT,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-01-02T21:44:40.580+0000)

debatable. the armor shred buff helped him to increase his overall power, but it didnt add much to give a team a specific reason to pick him over other similar options.

plus, his winrate in diamond is still crappy even after the buff, and he still doesnt exist in masters.

a buff to his objective control would increase his value for higher level play specifically, where people actually give a damn about objectives, and the possibility to use his ult essentially as a second smite on a team has much more impact than for lower divisions.

no its really isn.t he didnt even need that buff...

the last game i saw a garen in she was completely shut down early game, he got totally outplayed, and yet he was STILL an unstoppable moster mid and last game. you literally CANNOT stop him from scaling.

yes if you shut him down in the early game it used to hurt him...

THATS THE POINT!!!!

if you are good enough to solo shut down a champ or you co-ordinate with your jungler to completely shut down a champ.. there not SUPPOSED to be good late game.

they should have to go even or they should have to WIN to be good. like EVERY OTHER CHAMPION.

garen already had stupid sustain in lane... he has NO MANA to worry about... he cant just stay in lane forever.

even Zed has to back if he goes low on HP... Riven CAN stay in lane with her shield.. but she SHOULD still back or she will lose trades

Garen just freaking gains hp for no reason... doesn't need to worry about mana.. has stupid movement speed.. and if he does catch you he silences you for 3.5 second... so unless you are playing an AD champ who can auto him.. your totally f*cked... you cant dash away.. you cant use any abilties. YOU CANT EVEN summoner 4 AWAY. your just stuck there till he kills your squishy AP ass.

like literally.. if garen catches up to you and your an AP champ.. just take you hand off the keyboard and wait for you to die... there is no point...

there is no COUNTERPLAY when you litterally cant do anything but auto.

Critmaster GarenJan 2, 20172 votes

{quoted}

no its really isn.t he didnt even need that buff...

he was in a shit position before that buff. just because youve seen one garen do well, in whatever division youre playing doesnt mean that power wise he wasnt complete ass before they added the armor shred.

he sat at 45% winrate in plat and didnt even break 50% winrate in bronze and silver.

he was literally rated the weakest champion in the game in the hands of competent players. do you understand what that means? a garen main had less of a chance of winning a game than an urgot main, an aatrox main, a galio main or an azir main. those champions that have been deliberately nerfed out of competitive viability by riot for variying reasons (except galio).

if you wanted to question that he needed THAT particular buff, then im open to discussion, but do not pretend like he didnt need a buff at all.

Big LincolnJan 2, 20174 votes

Why are you arguing Garen's balance by using Zed and Riven as references? They are nothing alike.

You're not even up to date on the champion; his silence is 1.5 seconds at all ranks. He has 340 movement speed, the average for his class.

so unless you are playing an AD champ who can auto him.. your totally f*cked... you cant dash away.. you cant use any abilties

Silences are the weakest form of CC. What you are describing is far worse when you're stunned or knocked up. Even a snare is more threatening than a silence.

like literally.. if garen catches up to you and your an AP champ.. just take you hand off the keyboard and wait for you to die... there is no point...

Almost every mage has CC in their kit to kite him with. Half of the reason Garen has been shit for so long is that Rylai's was built on every mage and it completely ruins him. If Garen catches up to you then you deserved to die.

if you are good enough to solo shut down a champ or you co-ordinate with your jungler to completely shut down a champ.. there not SUPPOSED to be good late game.

Late game does not matter how hard you feed when everyone is full build. When you shut down a champion, you're generally expected to end the game before they catch up.

SwiftKitten88Jan 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sExON6lT,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2017-01-02T22:07:40.549+0000)

Why are you arguing Garen's balance by using Zed and Riven as references? They are nothing alike.

You're not even up to date on the champion; his silence is 1.5 seconds at all ranks. He has 340 movement speed, the average for his class.

Silences are the weakest form of CC. What you are describing is far worse when you're stunned or knocked up. Even a snare is more threatening than a silence.

Almost every mage has CC in their kit to kite him with. Half of the reason Garen has been shit for so long is that Rylai's was built on every mage and it completely ruins him. If Garen catches up to you then you deserved to die.

Late game does not matter how hard you feed when everyone is full build. When you shut down a champion, you're generally expected to end the game before they catch up.

ok i admit, was wrong about the silence... in my defense though... it was worded in a confusing way on the wiki...

that does seems more balanced, and i will admit... i AM biased against him so (he hard-counters my main), and i dont pay quite as much attention to patch notes that affect champ i don't play. so i missed the silence nerf.

i will also admit spoke too hastily and without doing the research i should have for his current patch.

all thatthat being said... the scenario i described DID still happen.. and it DID happen in the most current patch.

at about 30 min into the game, he was the biggest threat in the game. despite that our team did EVERYTHING in our power, and SUCCEEDED in shutting him down.

unfortuantly i don't know which account i played the game on and i don't want to spend the time to look though both mine to find the game.

regardless he does NOT need ANY more buffs, garen is a champ DESIGNED for lower elo players, he is balanced around lower elo and he always has been, at least since i joined in patch 3.6. he is a beginner friendly champ with one of the lowest skill caps in the game...

if riot found a way to buff his competitive to 50% WITHOUT buffing his lower elo which is ALREADY in a good spot, i wouldn't be against that. but a straight out "flat buff" is completely uncalled for.

this is exactly what they did to nidalee.. she was BALANCED in lower elo and OP in higher elo... and EVERY nerf they did to her (with the notable exception of 6.9 and 6.15, which were done perfectly) was a FLAT nerf. flat buff and flat nerfs ONLY work if the champ needs a winrate buff/nerf in EVERY elo. otherwise compensation that affects the other elo needs to be done.

Quil EvrythingJan 5, 20171 votes

His Q at max rank does: "130 (+ 40% AD)" if 200 AD, then he has a free 210 burst. It's kind of like a mini-smite already. particularly if you chain it off an autoattack. Seems like the real problem is you just dont know how to play Garen well.

Critmaster GarenJan 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quil Evrything,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sExON6lT,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2017-01-05T22:03:42.561+0000)

His Q at max rank does: "130 (+ 40% AD)" if 200 AD, then he has a free 210 burst. It's kind of like a mini-smite already. particularly if you chain it off an autoattack. Seems like the real problem is you just dont know how to play Garen well.

is that post a joke? seems more like you dont actually dont know how to play the game well. dont presume i dont know how to play my champion, when in the same sentence you prove that you dont even understand what the summoner spell does.

there is a reason junglers go into the game with smite. not just for the early clears, otherwise half the meta junglers who can clear without it would skip if for something more aggressive. its because it allows them to outburst everyone without smite on jungle monsters, and makes dragon and baron steals impossible, unless by another jungler with smite. its also why nunu and chogath are so incredibly good at securing objectives, because their second smite (consume/feast) together with the summoner spell allows them to outburst the enemy jungler on neutral monsters.

his q doesnt deal nearly the same damage to monsters as smite and hence doesnt allow you to contest an objective vs. an enemy jungler, or help secure objectives like the actual summoner spell or abilities that imitate it do.

the entire point of this change would be to give him a strategic ability instead of raw duelling power, and give a team more of an incentive to take him along.

because while dealing damage to champions is part of his identity, its certainly not something unique. hes not better at teamfighting, duelling or splitpushing than other juggernauts.

AhristocatsJan 2, 20172 votes

if it was me i would remove the true damage part of his villain mechanic and add an other mechanic:

enemies within 325 range of the target takes X% of the damage

Critmaster GarenJan 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sExON6lT,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-01-02T21:51:12.241+0000)

if it was me i would remove the true damage part of his villain mechanic and add an other mechanic:

enemies within 325 range of the target takes 50% of the damage

but this would again just be shifting around of his damage potential in his kit without actually adding something to it that makes him a unique strategic pick.

aoe damage isnt something that only he could be able to bring to a team, and there would still be better options. it couldnt compare to darius ult or general aoe damage for example.

even if his ult dealt aoe damage the way you described, which would be at the same time incredibly unreliable, why pick him over darius?

AhristocatsJan 2, 20171 votes

Because darius can't oneshot an entire team if Garen is able to ulti enemy low 4k hp tank

Garen with this change, would be able to counter hard high amount of hp targets by transforming their hp into AOE damage

Critmaster GarenJan 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sExON6lT,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-01-02T22:00:57.045+0000)

Because darius can't oneshot an entire team if Garen is able to ulti enemy low 4k hp tank

Garen with this change, would be able to counter hard high amount of hp targets by transforming their hp into AOE damage

youre wearing a diamond badge. i dont know where you ended last season.

but you have made experiences played at a serious competitive level. you know what attributes players at that level value when it comes to their champion picks. overall contribution to the team, reliability and fallback patterns when behind. not just raw carry potential, unless it matches the likes of twitch and darius.

from your experiences, do you honestly think that a change like that would be enough to make garen a lasting useful pick at those ratings?

honestly, i dont think so. he would still be glanced over as a champion who doesnt bring more than damage to a team, and not even as much as other champions.

on top of it, an aoe component on his ult would be even less reliable to him than his current villain mechanic. how many people do you think he can reliably hit with that?

AhristocatsJan 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sExON6lT,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-02T22:08:49.877+0000)

an aoe damage on his ult would be even less reliable to him than his current villain mechanic. how many people do you think he can actually hit with that?

that's the point, if it was reliable it would be gamebreaking. I actually don't even know if it would fixe garen, he must have other problems i don't know i don't main garen

i just know someone in dota2 that does AOE damage based on a target missing hp, then he becomes a hard counter to them since he can use those hp on his enemies, Since garen as a juggernaut doesn't have any identity i figured he could have this one, being a counter to DrMundo Chogath

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sExON6lT,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-02T22:08:49.877+0000) youre wearing a diamond badge

i don't see any badges

Critmaster GarenJan 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sExON6lT,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-02T22:17:20.094+0000)

i don't see any badges

your summoner icon. there is really only one way to get that. you must have at least been diamond in season 3.

also, garen already does counter mundo right now. chogath is a different beast. hes actually a lane counter to garen due to his kit. but come mid to lategame, garen can win against him aswell.

i dont think he needs any additional help against those matchups, and performs quite well against them.

its his overall contribution to his team, that is lacking.

AhristocatsJan 2, 20171 votes

Yes, i was diamond in season 3, played dota2 between season 4 and end season 6, played a bit of rankeds in season 6 but dynamic queue made me stop

now i'm back to diamond

Twitch ChatJan 2, 20172 votes

only if the dragon kills someone and becomes the villain :^)

JefftiffyJan 2, 20171 votes

Yes let's make a binary, super easy to play champion with high early game better and easier to play. Also that buff is kind of worthless and a noob trap. Why Garen would ult the almost dead objective when it has a stupid high CD is beyond me. Garen is a really strong champ. He just operates best as a counter pick. If you try to give him more than that then you have a stupid easy to play broken champion that doesn't die and does a ton of damage.

Yasuo is on a similar level as Garen. Fairly simple to play. The only difference is that he has a kit that offers him more if he is more skilled and less if he's not skilled. I mean his kit has the built in handicap of double crit chance and a windwall which is summoned instantly from the middle of his hitbox so it blocks stuff from the wrong direction. I mean, it does take more skill to play Yasuo than Garen, but his kit is on the same similar level of binary where you either are god or useless.

Garen's kit has the problem of needing to catch someone to do anything, but if you do they are basically screwed because you aren't going down for awhile and your single target damage output is pretty high. And at the same time if he loses the trade he just back out and heal up. So he has to be left as a niche pick.

Critmaster GarenJan 2, 20173 votes

{quoted}

is on a similar level as Garen. Fairly simple to play.

simple to pick up doesnt mean simple to play or to master. youre a moron if you think yasuo is easy to play, and probably have never played him yourself.

and if you think garen has a strong early game you havent tocuhed him once since his rework either.

JefftiffyJan 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sExON6lT,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-01-02T22:26:16.511+0000)

simple to pick up doesnt mean simple to play or to master. youre a moron if you think yasuo is easy to play, and probably have never played him yourself.

Wood 5 player telling me that Yasuo isn't easy to play. Literally his build is cookie cutter. His decision making is pretty damn easy. His entire kit is made to remove counter play from him and give him more. Yasuo stopped taking skill the second the buffed him post release for 2 patches and removed the counter play to his kit.

The only skill he takes is the basic decision making of knowing when to go in and when not to.

Critmaster GarenJan 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Wood 5 player telling me that Yasuo isn't easy to play. Literally his build is cookie cutter. His decision making is pretty damn easy. His entire kit is made to remove counter play from him and give him more. Yasuo stopped taking skill the second the buffed him post release for 2 patches and removed the counter play to his kit.

im starting to question if youve even read the post, and not just the title.

the entire point of this buff to garen would be a way to make him relevant to a team without making him binary to fight. or even changing anything about how difficult or easy he is to fight.

in fact it has nothing to do with anything you described about him.

i find that argument dumb in the first place. almost every single adc in this game is binary as shit. excluding that one or two like ashe who are focused around utility and still have something to contribute even when they dont do much else. theyre all allowed to be competitive, and no one bats an eye.

JefftiffyJan 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sExON6lT,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-02T22:30:47.123+0000)

im starting to question if youve even read the post, and not just the title.

the entire point of this buff to garen would be a way to make him relevant to a team without making him binary to fight. or even changing anything about how difficult or easy he is to fight.

in fact it has nothing to do with anything you described about him.

i find that argument dumb in the first place. almost every single adc in this game is binary as shit. excluding that one or two like ashe who are focused around utility and still have something to contribute even when they dont do much else. theyre all allowed to be competitive, and no one bats an eye.

It doesn't help at all meaning you have no clue how to balance kits. Adding in random sometimes edge case useful utility that contradicts a kits playstyle is completely and utterly stupid.

Garen's kit is go in, do damage, soak damage, get out, repeat. What you are suggesting is making someone who already does their job really well in their niche have extra areas to do well. You know what happened the last time that happened. Kassadin pre-nerfs. He literally held a 95% ban rate for almost 2 whole seasons until they finally "reworked" him. And I am not about seeing anyone seeing that level of play. Chogath is meant for objective control and area control. Not Garen. A juggernaut as Riot calls him does not go for objectives. They are basically supposed to be the raid boss archetype. Go in do damage, not die. Taking objectives is not their forte.

Objectives tend to be taken by DPS and burst champs. Towers = DPS. Baron/Dragon = burst and DPS. The second a tank/juggernaut starts to do that you really need to question if CertainlyT is in charge of the kit design because he loves giving a shit ton of random excess utilities to kits.

If you really want to buff Garen, you have to remove the true damage from his ult remove the whole villain system and put in scaling with how much he bulks up. Whether it be armor, mr, hp, or even all 3. The villain system gives him damage no matter what he does. It doesn't encourage him to build tank. It just gives him extra period. It's why I can build crit garen and steamroll teams instead of building him juggernaut like Riot wanted him to be.

Big LincolnJan 2, 20171 votes

I don't think this is the right change for Garen; I already consider Cho a juggernaut and he's got objective control down pretty well.

Garen would also probably be too good at securing them; the missing health damage on those massive health bars would be obscene

Critmaster GarenJan 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sExON6lT,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-01-02T23:15:49.193+0000)

I don't think this is the right change for Garen; I already consider Cho a juggernaut and he's got objective control down pretty well.

Garen would also probably be too good at securing them; the missing health damage on those massive health bars would be obscene

i did specify a maximum damage of 1000 which is the same cap as on feast and consume.

JefftiffyJan 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sExON6lT,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-01-02T23:31:45.998+0000)

i did specify a maximum damage of 1000 which is the same cap as on feast and consume.

It still doesn't fix the fact that Garen is not meant to take objectives. Cho is team fight and utility. Garen is 1v1, damage soaking and damage.

Critmaster GarenJan 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It still doesn't fix the fact that Garen is not meant to take objectives. Cho is team fight and utility. Garen is 1v1, damage soaking and damage.

the problem is, EVERY juggernaut is 1v1 and soaking damage. its not exactly a unique nieche for him to have, that makes him someone you want to pick over the other juggs.

and comparably he sucks at it due to his lack of in combat sustain. darius is better at 1v1 than garen. so is nasus, so is voli, yorick, olaf, udyr. garen can not actually take extended fights, because he doesnt have ways available to constantly regain health during a fight.

his kit right now lacks something that sets him apart, and hes not strong enough to be just a generic pick.

on one hand you complain that his kit makes him a binary champion, on the other hand youre unwilling to change something about him that would make him less binary and just about him being able to roll over his opponent or get stomped. its not just the addition of "random utility" its the addition of play making options to his kit that he lacks, and strategic impact on a game.

RexSaurJan 2, 20171 votes

Garen is champion that shouldnt be too much stronger than he is right now due to how binary/simple he is to play.

Buffing garen is like buffing pantheon, sure they are not the best champions by any means but they are completely obnoxious to play against when they are strong as they arent very interactive at that point (be it by garen outstating you or pantheon spamming Q off cd).

AhristocatsJan 2, 20171 votes

yeah, meanwhile cait and vayne, not binary at all

at least i can walk into creeps to reduce garen's spin damage by 33%