Why does Rhaast have a 1 second knockup?

Barcid·Aug 1, 2017·2 votes·1,437 views

No, seriously. Take a moment and consider this:

Rakan, just released recently, is a low damage and relatively squishier support with a 1 second knock-up that takes a second to proc after a dash that basically announces that he's doing it. This has a 12 second cooldown base at max level.

Rhaast on the other hand has the same duration knock-up in a similarly sized area (albeit in a line instead of in a circular area) that has more damage and scales better on top of having a lower cooldown by 3 seconds, for the same duration. This is a bruiser we're talking about here, not a tank with meh damage and not a support who should be CC'ing to oblivion. Why does a bruiser have 1 second of non-reduceable CC in an obnoxiously large area on a 9 second cooldown base hitting 5 seconds with their normal build?

Like, am I missing something here? Is there something that I'm not seeing that explains why he needs a full second of this hard CC every 5 seconds to function? What's the reasoning?

26 Comments

five oh tree Aug 1, 20176 votes

Why does malzahar's Q have a 2 second aoe silence when ori's Q just does a small amount of damage? Jesus rito please, it's so unfair, nerf malz and buff ori.

BarcidAug 1, 20171 votes

Except Malz's Q is easily dodgeable on top of him being immobile and having no sustain on top of his silence being entirely reduceable and affecting auto-attacking champions basically not at all.

Rhaast is very much mobile, bulky, has massive sustain surpassing even Vlad in some respects, and his CC is unreduceable and in the past was usually reserved either for very high cooldown abilities or to be put into ults for similar durations.

Not only do you not back up your silly retort with any actual similarities whatsoever, but it's just stupid logic. How is this even a satire of the original? It's done so poorly.

five oh tree Aug 1, 20171 votes

Its satire because your entire post was illogical and poorly thought out, I'm just matching that.

You're comparing a lategame diver (a class known for having a moderate amount of hard cc) to a.. warden? Is this a joke? His cc is very dodgeable, locks him in place, and is also his waveclear.

Let's have some fun though, since you think his w is ult worthy!

LET'S COMPARE IT TO MALPHITE BECAUSE COMPARING TANKS AND BRUISERS IS OKAY

Rhaast: is locked in place, has a decent delay, is very reliant upon it to kill minions. Has a low cooldown and is a knockup.

Malphite: Insane, near instantaneous long range mobility, high damage, good size aoe, ridiculous ap scaling

wow malphite is busted11!1!!!!1

You can point out his strengths all you want and ignore all his weaknesses, but it's not going to make you any better or Kayn any less balanced.

BarcidAug 2, 20171 votes

It's not satire because you're not grasping simple gameplay similarities. Especially if your jump was to Malphite because I can already tell you a massive difference in how Malphite and Kayn will function: Malphite can only go in, Kayn has mobility to get him back out.

Now how would you say Kayn/Rhaast functions?

Dive in, hit the enemy some, dive out afterward. Repeat.

How would you say Rakan functions?

Dive in, hit the enemy some, dive out afterward. Repeat.

They're great team-buds because they're matching playstyles - they're dive team extraordinaires. Their key playstyle difference is in their roles: a support and a jungler.

But since you said "lategame diver is a class known for having a moderate amount of CC", then let's compare him to his most common comparison: Riven.

Riven's Q is a .5 second knock-up (if that) with a .75 stun on her W. Considering Riven's stun can be reduced, this is in the ballpark of about 1 second of hard CC built into her kit total. Riven has major mobility but is limited in her sustain, only having a shield in her kit. She has more burst on squishies but is basically screwed if stunlocked.

Rhaast only has CC on his W, a 1 second knock-up with a short wind-up (about .5-.75 seconds). Rhaast's cooldowns are rather similar to Riven's in the collective kit overall and both build down a similar path. Rhaast instead has significant sustain built into his passive and heals a bit off of his E, though that doesn't provide much in-combat utility. Rhaast is significantly effective against tanks and other bruisers but lacks burst on squishies.

So where does the CC come into play here?

Well, Riven's CC requires her to be within melee range, having a radius of 200 units tops giving it a grand area of about 400 units.

Rhaast's W range is 700 units. Its radius is unmeasured unfortunately, but I'd give it about a 150 radius. So we're talking about a significantly larger area of effect here from his supposed similar gameplay partner.

But he should be justified in having that then, right? Since he's all about the sustained damage versus burst.

Except that why wouldn't that just be .75 seconds? And why is it so fucking big of an area when his targets tend to be the hulking giants guarding teams? It's not like they're hard to hit.

And with that considered, why is it significantly larger than Rakan's AoE? His AoE knockup has a radius of 250, putting it at an area of about 500 units total around him. With the same delay, this is easier to dodge for approximately the same payoff.

Do you know why I point out Rhaast's knock up on his W out of his whole kit? Do you know why I'm not just saying "Why is Rhaast stronger than Rakan"? It's because Rhaast's knock-up is support-like. It's tank-like. In fact, I can point out significantly more tanks and supports with similar abilities than I can name assassins or bruisers with that kind of utility. It's because Rhaast's W isn't a bruiser or assassin's utility. It's quite literally - by comparison - a support's level of utility built into something that isn't a fucking support.

Trap or a TrickAug 1, 20172 votes

apples and oranges dude

Meep ManAug 1, 20172 votes

WHY CAN'T FRUIT BE COMPARED!? ALL THESE CONFLICTING PRINCIPLES!

~~hehe~~

BarcidAug 2, 20171 votes

Well no. Apples and oranges come from the same exact food group. Both fruits.

Rhaast and Rakan do not come from the same group. One's a support and one's a jungler. However, their knock-ups are similar in size and scope and are far more appropriate on a tank or a support. Rakan is a support and gets a pass. Rhaast is neither tank nor support.

The question remains, why does Rhaast have a support's level of CC on his W? Judging by Jarvan's own knock-up - somebody in the same class of champion with a similar range and scope CC - this knockup should at most be .75 seconds considering not only is it about a 200-250 unit radius, but it has a 700 unit range along with the added bonus of allowing Rhaast to stay safe during it instead of sending him into danger.

Quite literally all other fighters require their CC to either already have them in face-plant range or will make them face-plant into the enemy. So the point stands: why does Rhaast have a 1 second knock-up?

As a side note, fruit don't have to worry about balance issues. Otherwise Acai OP.

DJMason88Aug 2, 20171 votes

Do you take everything so literally? Also, you need to realize what power budgets are. Sure, Rakan's knock up might not be as good as Rhaast's, but Rhaast can't heal and shield dash to his allies, and charge into and charm the enemy team. If you're going to say "Quite literally" then you better mean "Quite literally", especially you, and you're wrong there.

BarcidAug 2, 20171 votes

Aatrox Camille Diana Ekko Gnar Irelia JarvanIV Jax Jayce LeeSin Pantheon Renekton Riven Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao

Every champ that would be classified as a bruiser in this game - by build-path and playstyle - requires they face-plant themselves for their hard CC. So when I say "quite literally", I actually mean "quite literally". So good job being wrong in telling somebody they're wrong.

In fact, if you want to classify him as a "bruiser" rather than an assassin or melee ADC, the only similar unit in the game to Rhaast's retard-level knock-up is Yasuo, so would you like me to liken Rhaast to Yasuo?

And I know what a power budget is. What you need to realize is how much can be allotted to a power budget before it's unacceptable. Kayn already enters the game being a rather flexible champion, being able to flip between a straight up assassin and a bulky bruiser/tank killer. He gets a total of 18% max health physical damage on his Q as Rhaast after his first two items (usually being the AD jungler item and Black Cleaver, totaling 100 bonus AD) and another 23% in his ult with those two items. Q at this point would likely also have less than a 5 second cooldown, so upon leaving his ult he would once again do 18% of max health in damage. This is ignoring any flat AD damage on his abilities.

He also has AoE spellvamp that far outmatches any other champ in the game including Vlad and Swain. His spellvamp is not reduced on AoE effects, either. He also has an E that heals him on escape and this allows him to freely move in and out of danger in tandem with his Q which also allows him to go through walls. He's set on sustain, mobility, and general bulkiness, coming in at about the same bulkiness as Vi with several times the sustain. Does he have room in his budget to have a knockup as well? Sure. Should this knockup be 1 full second at a full 700 units of range? No. That is not a fighter level of CC, that is a support level of CC.

The CC king of League Nautilus even only surpasses that level of CC on his fucking ult and that's over a minute of cooldown time. And he's either a massive lane bully top or a damage-less CC bot with no in-between. Rhaast flat out does not need 1 second of knock up in that large of an area on that low of a cooldown when other champions have to nix large amounts of their power budgets just to be allowed their CC.

So Rhaast can't heal and shield dash to his allies, and he can't charm the enemy team. But he can walk through walls, knock everyone up for a full second from a safe distance (Rakan must dive) and choose when he wants to go in, out-last Rakan in a fight, and straight up actually do shit by himself without requiring allies. Rakan requires teammates to be effective. Period. That's why he has the utility. That's why he does so much - because it's ally interaction, meaning it's entirely dependent upon his team how well he does. It's inconsistent.

Rhaast doesn't require his team. He can fight alone with the same efficiency as fighting in a group. That is why support level CC makes no fucking sense on him. This CC is already toxic as hell on Yasuo and he at least has the excuse of being made out of wet paper - Rhaast doesn't have that excuse.

LeylaniaAug 1, 20171 votes

Riot is into overloading every new champions kit. I could ask you aswell why he does heal himself when he goes into a wall (which does not make sense at all - what the phreak is healing him in a situation like this? Magical wall essence of love and friendship?), the answer would be the same. I think we all learned that after Camille came out...

DJMason88Aug 1, 20171 votes

Why does Darius's Q heal him? Why do Illaoi's tentacles heal her? Because they are juggernauts, and most juggernauts have a healing effect. Garen Darius Illaoi DrMundo Volibear , its a gameplay related thing. With Kayn, its no different. See how that healing on w nerfed to Camille made her jungling trash tier? Same thing Kayn. He needs it because he is a jungler. Not all Junglers have heals, but most have some defensive ability to help them during clears.

BarcidAug 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Why does Darius's Q heal him? Why do Illaoi's tentacles heal her? Because they are juggernauts, and most juggernauts have a healing effect. , its a gameplay related thing. With Kayn, its no different.

This is stupid. Reason being Kayn's not a juggernaut. He's several times more mobile with far more hard CC than other juggernauts. All 5 of your listed champs have very limited hard CC at best.

See how that healing on w nerfed to Camille made her jungling trash tier? Same thing Kayn. He needs it because he is a jungler. Not all Junglers have heals, but most have some defensive ability to help them during clears.

This is especially stupid. Reason being that Rhaast doesn't come out until late-game, meaning he doesn't get his spellvamp until the end of laning phase. That is actually the most uninformed statement I've ever seen.

AlienPrimateAug 2, 20172 votes

Why does Aatrox have a 1 second AoE knockup?

Why does Jax have a 1 second AoE stun?

Why does J4 have a .75 second AoE knockup that reduces armor by 26%?

Why does Nasus have the second strongest ~~slow~~ snare in the game?

Why does Riven have a .75 second AoE stun?

Why does Warwick have a 1 second AoE fear?

Why does Yasuo have a 1.5 second AoE knockup?

######Why do ADC's have auto attacks?

BarcidAug 2, 20171 votes

Aatrox's knockup is pinpoint with a 75 unit radius, improbable to hit on more than one champ unless the enemy is stacking really hard.

Jax's stun is reduceable and requires him to be in melee range.

Jarvan's knockup is tied to his E, requiring two moves to activate. Also, as you stated, shorter.

Nasus is immobile and easily kited, also a much easier target. Doesn't stop mobility or action. Actually irrelevant in this topic.

Riven's stun is a radius of 125 units. 135 on her ult. Q is a much shorter knock-up but requires 3 uses before being proc-able.

Warwick has next to no mobility once combat when out of range. Meaty size on his fear, though, sure. Still reduceable.

Yasuo's a broken champ and ultimately irrelevant when trying to decide what's balanced or not (ha).

ADC's have auto attacks to make you hate the game.

Why does Fizz have a troll-pole, why does Zed have a blink with his shadows, why does Kat blink all over the place? Probably because they're assassins and squishy as fuck and considered unbalanced as hell when they're actually able to build durable instead.

Rhaast's range is 700 units. Radius of 200-250 units. Is actually one of the largest AoE knockups in the game. For reference: longer range than Sion's knockup with half the preparation on top of being uninterruptible after a certain animation frame. Sion does knock up for .25 seconds longer after his minimum preparation time, but is a fuckin' tank so would make sense that his kit packs that kind of CC.

Rhaast is not a tank. Rhaast is a very mobile bruiser. With the CC of an immobile tank or a support.

The question still stands: Why the everloving fuck does Rhaast have that level of crowd control when he doesn't need it?

DJMason88Aug 2, 20171 votes

You cut off my first part to make it seem like i was saying he is a juggernaut. I didn't. I was using them as an example since they heal from things that don't make sense. Besides, your point on cc is wrong anyways, Kayn only gets the hard cc if he chooses Rhasst and while it's not has limited as the mentioned champions im not saying he is in the same category, and it still is not as reliable as others. Im not even sure what you are trying to say in the last part, though. Im talking about the fact the guy above my first comment said that he shouldn't be able to heal from walls just because it doesn't make sense. Im not talking about the vamp from Rhaast, im talking about the heal on his e.

Edit: His E, mb.

BarcidAug 2, 20171 votes

That's his E, and I don't have a problem with the heal. It's negligible at best to begin with.

DJ LucioAug 1, 20171 votes

Why does Nunu have a feast on his Q, and Cho has a 60 second feast on his R, smh..

Colgate GatorAug 1, 20171 votes

Why Rakan gets a charming ultimate and 3 dashes plus a heal and my Champions don't? Jesus christ, so broken.

CalabokAug 2, 20171 votes

why ask why?

EschetonAug 2, 20171 votes

I kinda hate that the windup is faster than that of Sion.

BarcidAug 2, 20171 votes

Longer range as well.

Two thirds the width. Also uninterruptible after a certain frame.

Rockm SockmAug 2, 20171 votes

You just compares some of the most overloaded kit and c/c in game to Rhaast.....

To use your words......RHASST has am extremely telegraphed knockup that is amazing easy to avoid and the majority of his damage.

Why don't you play the champion, feed your ass off then come back here and report.

BarcidAug 2, 20171 votes

Question: Do you play any strictly immobile champs?

I'm curious because your match history either shows you playing Kayn or playing a champion with more mobility than the majority of others.

So I want to know your frame of reference. Mostly because you're wrong on two accounts.

Rhaast's damage done is mostly in his Q. You're probably puzzled by how the heck that works because as you can see, his Q only does 50% of his attack damage along with the 5% maximum health damage base on top of it (if we're ignoring scaling). 5% of HP against a 1k health opponent still does 50 damage, and this is still assuming no AD is built.

Except for that little-bitty important part that "Kayn deals the same damage again to opponents in the area".

Oh. So that means we double the amount of damage done by his Q. By the time Kayn becomes Rhaast, we're looking at about 80 or so AD base? Around there. So Rhaast's base damage will be about 80. Plus the 50 damage each time from the % health damage: grand total of 180 damage. Not a ton, not even close.

Now this is an impossible scenario considering at this point in the game - when Kayn becomes Rhaast - no champion has 1000 health - they have more. Usually much more. And Rhaast will have built at least 100 bonus AD by now from his jungler item and Black Cleaver. So let's calculate that instead: W with that combo now deals a total of 380 damage. Rhaast's Q will deal about 180 damage base plus 9% of a target's health per hit of his Q now. Well now that gap's becoming shorter, because Rhaast's Q now hits the 1000 health target for 360. Except again, that's really unrealistic, isn't it? Let's put it at 1200 health just to keep it interesting. So at 1200 health, well... that's 396 damage. His Q now hits harder than his W. Funnily because his Q scales better than his W, both with AD and with enemies' health levels. Who knew?

So if you're saying that his W is the majority of his damage, then that means you're either talking about Shadow Assassin or you're maxing out Rhaast's W first. Probably because if you're planning to go Rhaast, your Q is negligible to max - it deals the same damage period except against monsters, which it still does 110 set bonus damage to on cast. But what could you gain from his W that's so great? The base damage helps Rhaast a bit but you should be focusing on killing tanks not squishies, so you'd want the % damage on his Q more often. So shouldn't you go for that first so it's got a lower cooldown?

Or... is it because 1 second of hard, unreduceable utility is really hard to ignore?

Or are you just following mobafire's instructions and never wondering "Wait, why?"

What I can tell you is that judging by the fact you don't know your own champion very well, it's safe to say... well... maybe you're misjudging just where and how you should be throwing that W around, huh? Maybe your feeding with him is more a result of you not actually understanding him.

Maybe you should read your own abilities and come back here and report.

The other account is that his W has a .5 second windup and is practically impossible to dodge while slowed or if you're not particularly mobile as a champion. Its wide range also makes it very easy to hit in the jungle due to limited spacing.

High SchooI DxDAug 2, 20171 votes

because kayn sucks lmao

BarcidAug 2, 20171 votes

True. Kayn sucks. Kayn's garbage before he... I dunno. Evolves? Becomes Raichu?

Ass damage with ass sustain with ass assness as a base champion. Kayn is garbage.

Rhaast is a broken pile of shit and the only justifiable reason to play Kayn at all, balanced only by the fact that the champ you have to play first to get to Rhaast is generally going to result in some kind of feed-fest unless your team is already strong.

High SchooI DxDAug 2, 20171 votes

every kayn i've ever played with feeds before they get to rhaast